Arcane Disciple Class (dragmag #311) the wizard who wasn't?

[lylsyly]

Simply put, the Arcane Disciple alternate cleric class from dragmag 311 gets d6 HD, 4 skill points from a better list than either cleric or wizard. Bonus feats as a wizard. Wis as a casting stat and the arcane to divine class feature at all 20 levels which is simply the ability to take any spell from the bard/sorc/wiz lists one spell level lower than the max you can cast and add it to your spell list as a DIVINE spell. D6 HD and mediun armor and simple weapons.

What would you do as a TO exercise with this class?

[sreservoir]

(For those of us following along at home, it's on page 49, in the article with the rest of the cleric variants, most notably the evangelist.)

Well, it gets Archivist theoretical access to the rest of the sor/wiz spells up to 8th level. Note that divine bard already put every bard spell on the list, favored of bahamut/tiamat (DrM 13) already puts every sorcerer spell on the list, and divine magician puts every abjuration/divination/necromancy wizard spell on the list, so you're looking at the rather small list of wizard-only spells of 7th or 8th level that aren't one of those schools. I'm not sure there are any—I was going to point at Spell Engine (SpC 198), but that one's inexplicably Abjuration [Force], so you're already covered.

The actual class is somewhere between standard cleric and cloistered cleric chassis-wise and inferior to both wrt the casting mechanic due to losing domains (and the slot!), which also means you don't get the Anyspell line (the Spell domain is available to most clerics with the right fluff for Arcane Disciple anyway) and also prevents you from taking the divine magician ACF.

One thing I'll say is that this variant is perhaps the most straightforward way to DMM persist a few things like arcane spellsurge and unfettered heroism, since you do keep turning and the spell is explicitly cast as divine, but that's hardly a particularly cool trick when you're doing Dragon diving.

[bean illus]

Is your first hunch magic use, or gish?

I'm seeing an opportunity to gish. You have 5 metamagic feats, if you go all the way. That lets you spend all your other feats as you wish.

If you're willing to let go of the last metamagic feat, you're free to dip or prc for up to 5 levels. I recommend earlier than later, so your spell choices get to be higher levels.

[Thunder999]

It adds Mage's Lucubration (Transmutation, 6th level, wizard only). not a very good spell, but I'm sure someone can use it.

[Bphill561]

(For those of us following along at home, it's on page 49, in the article with the rest of the cleric variants, most notably the evangelist.)

One thing I'll say is that this variant is perhaps the most straightforward way to DMM persist a few things like arcane spellsurge and unfettered heroism, since you do keep turning and the spell is explicitly cast as divine, but that's hardly a particularly cool trick when you're doing Dragon diving.

Page 47 says all the specialist Clerics lose turning so you still need to PrC it to get turning back in.

[Anthrowhale]

In terms of the tradeoff vs. a cleric, the loss of Turn Undead is minor since you can pick it up via a level in Sacred Exorcist. The loss of two domains is more significant although gaining Use Magic Device and 5 feats is pretty good in compensation. The loss of domain slots is more painful although the 20 extra spells of your choice are great. The downside of being a level behind in arcane spell choices can be mitigated via Sanctum Spell at level 1.

It's unclear that you get access to wizard-only or sorcerer-only spells, since it says you get access to sorcerer/wizard spells. This technically means spells on the lists of both. That eliminates some fun possibilities.

The chassis says 'gish' by default to me, since you can pick up the wizard gish spells (Wraith Strike, Draconic Polymorph), etc... and cast them in armor. It's also easy to get BAB+16, if you care, via taking something like Hospitaler or Fist of Raziel 4.

The class obviously favors staying in class, so it combos well with dual-class things. Clerics have several of these, which are great.
Bard 1/Arcane Disciple 19 picking up Divine Inspiration (Dragon #333) is a essentially a Bard with full casting from Cleric, Bard, and Sorcerer/Wizard lists.
Rogue 1/Arcane Disciple 19 picking up Sacred Outlaw (Dragon #357) via Martial Stance[Assassin's Stance], 3 levels of Shadowbane Stalker, or the Halfling Rogue 1 ACF. You have full sneak attack and can super-skillmonkey via Improvisation+Guidance of the Avatar+Divine Insight.

It seems that picking the top 19 or 20 spells would be helpful. Offhand:
1. Improvisation //Yet another skill bonus
1. Beastland Ferocity // +Delay Death = fun
2. Alter Self //lesser polymorph combat fun via Alter Self[Crucian] for example
2. Heroics //Fighter feats or Wraithstrike (used persisted)
3. Greater Mighty Wallop //fistful of damage
3. Haste
4. Greater Invisibility // Invisibility = easy mode sometimes
4. Celerity //Go when you want. Twin with daze immunity to nova.
5. Draconic Polymorph // Greater Polymorph
5. Greater Blink
6. Contingency
6. Irresistable dance // A no-save [mind-affecting] spell at an extra low bard level.
7. Greater Teleport
7. Arcane Spellsurge // Combo with Southern Magician to double spellcasting rate or
8. Ghostform // incorporeal = easy mode in many cases.
8. Mind Blank
9. Shapechange // Superior Polymorph
9. Foresight //immune to surprise
9. Time Stop
9. ??

Easy access to UMD potentially sets up access to the Channel Charge feat which allows you to effectively spontaneously cast any spell in a wand or staff at one level higher than normal. Channel Charge[Owl's Insight] gives a huge boost to Wisdom.

[Zombulian]

Take this class into the Runecaster PrC for free item creation feats and an easy way to get arcane spells on runes.
Though the fact that Arcane to Divine doesn't keep progressing once you leave the class is a bit of an issue.

Edit: Why is Channel Charge[Owl's Wisdom] better than just using that spell yourself?

[Saintheart]

One interesting exploit which probably isn't worth it is allowing you to cast arcane spells from a Domain Staff with Divine Metamagic applied to them.

Arcane Disciple 5/Cleric 1. Pick Magic domain as one of your domains as cleric. Then pick the Customize Domain feat out of Dragon #325, which under Magic domain allows you to pretty much reshuffle your domain spells to any spell.

Your spells chosen under Arcane Disciple now qualify to be placed in a Domain Staff.



Each domain staff holds the nine spells associated with a particular cleric domain. By expending a prepared divine spell or divine spell slot, the wielder can “cast” a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s divine class spell list (including his domain lists, if any).

The Arcane Disciple spells appear on the wielder's domain list, as moulded by the Customize Domain feat.

Why would you bother doing all this? Mainly because while arcane runestaffs do allow you to apply metamagic to the staff's spells (distinctly unlike normal magic staffs), you have to use up a spell of a higher level as with normal metamagic. But the divine spellcaster has Divine Metamagic, and thus allows you to cast those arcane spells from the domain staff while shunting off the increased spell level slots to Turn Undead attempts. Gives a little more flexibility since you don't have to leave those arcane spells hogging your divine slots, you can leave them in the staff if you happen to need them.

[Anthrowhale]

Edit: Why is Channel Charge[Owl's Wisdom] better than just using that spell yourself?
Owl's Insight is a 5th level Druid spell that provides an insight bonus to wisdom of 1/2 your caster level for an hour. This is of course particularly handy if you are using alternating (greater) consumptive field to achieve arbitrarily high caster level.

[lylsyly]

The chassis says 'gish' by default to me, since you can pick up the wizard gish spells (Wraith Strike, Draconic Polymorph), etc... and cast them in armor. It's also easy to get BAB+16, if you care, via taking something like Hospitaler or Fist of Raziel 4.

Yeah, says gish to me too. I'm thinking fighter 1 for heavy armor (only d6 hit dice), bonus feat and martial weapons. Then Arcane Disciple until I can prc to get turn undead. Then back into Arcane Disciple the rest off the way.

Divine inspiration requires turn undead so that leaves the question of just how early can I get it.



Arcane Disciple 5/Cleric 1. Pick Magic domain as one of your domains as cleric. Then pick the Customize Domain feat out of Dragon #325, which under Magic domain allows you to pretty much reshuffle your domain spells to any spell.

Can't take a Variant then a level of the base class :-(

[bean illus]

Yeah, says gish to me too. I'm thinking fighter 1 for heavy armor (only d6 hit dice), bonus feat and martial weapons. Then Arcane Disciple until I can prc to get turn undead. Then back into Arcane Disciple the rest off the way.

Divine inspiration requires turn undead so that leaves the question of just how early can I get it.

8th level, or 9th if you take the fighter level. Wait, the bard level means 10th level, if you take both fighter and bard.



Can't take a Variant then a level of the base class :-

But, you could take Contemplative, or Seeker of the Mysty Isle for magic domain. Customize Domain demands you change the spells only once, at the time you get the feat, so taking it later is better.

[lylsyly]

well, at least bard would get me a rapier and shortbow. Kinda hate that my sthick only comes online at 9th.

Okay then: Divine Bard 1/Arcane Disciple 7/Sacred Exorcist1/Arcane Disciple +1/Comptemplative 1/Arcane Disciple +9. At least I will get to convert one 8th level spell.

Definately Human for the feat and skill point, take knowledge devotion at third to shore up my meager damage.

[Ramza00]

What would you do as a TO exercise with this class?

Illumian with Improved Sigil Krau.

Sure going mystic theurge cleric 2/ wizard 1 would be better for 1 level spells behind is worth all those spell slots.

But illumian with improved sigil krau would allow you to poach 2 spells of every spell level off those Wizard / Bard lists without a level delay.

Sacred Performer and Iniate of Milal makes you mostly a bard with a 1 level dip into a Bard or a Bard variant like Divine Bard (makes you dual Wis)

[Anthrowhale]

...fighter 1 for heavy armor (only d6 hit dice), bonus feat and martial weapons
I don't think a fighter level is worth it.

Heavy Armor isn't very appealing compared to Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina in the early levels and by level 3 you can Alter Self[Crucian] which takes care of your AC needs for awhile. At later levels if you really want heavy armor there are some prestige classes that can provide it.

Martial weapons are in the same boat: they provide only marginal value over {Long Spear, Morningstar, Light Crossbow} in the early levels. If you really want martial weapons (for example, for a crit-fisher build), a level of Dragonslayer later on to picks up full casting as well.

The extra fighter feat has some value, but you can get access to Mirror Move or Heroics at level 3 or 4.

If you are willing to wait a little bit for bardsong, then Heartfire Fanner is a reasonable choice.

[bean illus]

well, at least bard would get me a rapier and shortbow. Kinda hate that my sthick only comes online at 9th.


Kinda, or maybe it's only that your main schtick comes fully online at 9th.

Just a thought, but Spell Focus, Metamagic School Focus, and Extend are all available at first, giving you extend for free at +1 caster level.

[lylsyly]

we really don't use metamagic much at our table but here goes

Feats
1st: Spell Focus: Transmutation
1st HB: Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation
2nd CB: Extend Spell
3rd Knowledge Devotion
6th Empower Spell
6th CB Persistent Spell
9th DMM: Persististent Spell
12th Divine Inspiration
13th CB:Quicken Spell
15th Extra Turning
18th Customize Domain: Magic
18th CB: Maximize Spell

Point taken about the weapons so it'll be longspear, morningstar, and shortbow instead of crossbow.
could actually skip the bard level but I like the idea of having a little more utility even if it doesn't come online till later.

[Bphill561]

If unearthed arcana is available, Prestige Paladin might be of interest. Sacred Exorcist 1/ Prestige Paladin 2 would not eat too many levels.

You could add paladin spells to your already extensive spell casting list. Following the theurgy theme, there is the Holy Mount feat in dragon #325 that adds paladin to your cleric level for the special mount level. The feat might not add prestige paladin in, but you got plenty of cleric levels. Divine Grace is a nice added bonus as well. You do need a martial weapon though.


I don't think a fighter level is worth it.

Heavy Armor isn't very appealing compared to Chain Shirt + Dastana + Chahar-Aina in the early levels and by level 3 you can Alter Self[Crucian] which takes care of your AC needs for awhile. At later levels if you really want heavy armor there are some prestige classes that can provide it.

Martial weapons are in the same boat: they provide only marginal value over {Long Spear, Morningstar, Light Crossbow} in the early levels. If you really want martial weapons (for example, for a crit-fisher build), a level of Dragonslayer later on to picks up full casting as well.

The extra fighter feat has some value, but you can get access to Mirror Move or Heroics at level 3 or 4.

If you are willing to wait a little bit for bardsong, then Heartfire Fanner is a reasonable choice.

Agree on the fighter, unless you need the feats for something like spell dancer. Might as well mention the Puglist variant in Dragon #310 that losses martial weapons but picks up endurance and unarmed strike. With the kept bonus feat it grants 2 of the 4 Spelldancer requires.

Heartfire Fanner instead of bard is a bit of an ouch though. Two feat tax, plus you still need another feat or class to get performance on your skill list so you don't have to pick it up as cross class skill at 10 ranks, ie level 17. Maybe the Apprentice feat (entertainer) from DMG2 would be useful since you keep its benefits after level 5 and can swap it for the Mentor feat. Then Dark shuffle the mentor feat out if those tricks are allowed at your table.

So you end up with AD 7/Heartfire 1/Sacred Exorcist 1. Great if you don't mind the feats, and it is pretty much the same level lylsyly's build taking the Divine Inspiration feat as you level 9.

A less Good build could take out Sacred Exorcist for Dread necromancer, especially if want arcane spells for other PrC tricks.

Edit: Got Divine Inspiration and Sacred Performer mixed up.

[lylsyly]

I don't know about extensive spell list. The Arcane to Divine class feature allows me to convert one spell from the wiz/sorc list at each level of arcane disciple. Just a way to get some arcane goodies on a weak cleric.

[Ramza00]

I don't know about extensive spell list. The Arcane to Divine class feature allows me to convert one spell from the wiz/sorc list at each level of arcane disciple. Just a way to get some arcane goodies on a weak cleric.

Yes.

Divine Magician gives up 1 domain and gets 1 abjuration, divination, or necromancy wizard spell for each spell level.
Arcane Disciple gives up 2 domains and gets 2 any wizard, or any bard spells but they must be 1 level lower than your max (thus prioritizing feats like sanctum spell, improved sigil krau, etc.) There are also other benefits and costs with hd, skills, bonus feats, etc.

I see it similar to specialization, sometimes focused specialization is better and sometimes you just want to specialized, and other times you go generalist / domain wizard / other class ACFs.

[bean illus]

we really don't use metamagic much at our table but here goes

Feats
1st: Spell Focus: Transmutation
1st HB: Metamagic School Focus: Transmutation
2nd CB: Extend Spell
3rd Knowledge Devotion
6th Empower Spell
6th CB Persistent Spell
9th DMM: Persististent Spell
12th Divine Inspiration
13th CB:Quicken Spell
15th Extra Turning
18th Customize Domain: Magic
[FONT=Verdana]18th CB: Maximize Spell


I'll try to give you a gish version. I'm not a optimization pro, but ...

Feats
1st: Retributive Spell +1
1st HB: Heighten Spell +0
1st CB: Extend Spell +1
3rd: Power Attack
4th FF: Leap Attack
6th: Empower Spell +2
6th CB: Quicken Spell +4
9th: Extra Turning
11th CB: DMM Quicken
12th: Divine Might
12th FF: Brutal Strike
15th: Extra Turning
16th CB: Occular Spell+2
18th: Customize Domain: Magic


What i like about this? Not much. But ...


Gish is fun.
Retributive Spell on a gish.
It frees you from pretending that half of Kn Devo is going to actually do much, besides use up all your skills.
It lets you dump Int.
It let's you use a heavy flail (cool).
And heavy armor.
Divine Might gives you something else to do with the Cha you wanna boost.
Frees up feats for Extra Turning
DMM Extended Quicken Divine Power.
Retributive Spell + Quicken + Occular Spell is maddness on the action economy.


At 1st level your a bit light. But at 4th, leaping power attack with retributive spell will be fun, and you're only 1 BAB behind. At 6th you can empower that.

At 8th you get divine power, and PA becomes fun again. By then your extend is kicking in also.

At 11th, extra turning brings: Quicken divine power leaping PA, with empowered retribution and extended buffs.

At 12th you add Cha to damage, and sicken most folks who you PA, which you can load on due to buffs.

At 16th, Quicken, Retributive Spell, and Occular Spell let you cast up to 4 spells per round (Wow! Yay!)

[lylsyly]

I guess I did kind of get away from the gish concept