How would you build a melee monoclass warlock without resorting to GWM+PAM?

[cutlery]

I've been kicking around a few concepts lately, and I'm struggling to "get" what the heck they did with warlocks and pact of the blade. Knowing what we know now about the system, how would you do it - or would you tell a player not to do it? I've played blaster warlocks and other melee-ish casters, but not a blade lock. As I look it over - I'm just not getting it.

So, Hypothetical Table Case:

Assuming multiclassing paladin and sorcerer multiclassing are off the table, (because they're boring), but you could mix up a warlock with either intelligence or charisma (choice at creation), how would you build it with the plan of getting in to melee? Also assume the rest of the table is reasonably decent at tactical play and building characters. For grins, also assume the group has some combination of: an eldritch knight who may or may not take wizard levels, a paladin who may or may not take sorcerer levels, a valor or swords bard, and a bladesinger wizard. It's the Fightin' Gishes! There will be one or more characters that can do similar things to what you do (but you are resolute to build for melee anyway).

Assume slightly better than normal stats; something like a generous 4d6; but I don't think stats are the important part of the equation here; as everyone will have roughly the same level of them. Also assume either not variant human or if variant human that first feat is something flavorful but not really part of the build (i.e. not GWM/war caster/resilient - but maybe something like martial adept, fey touched, or ritual caster).

Assume the warlock player wants to use a greatsword/greataxe/maul - zero interest in pole arm master. What's a Glaive? Rapiers are dumb - etc. GWM is a maybe. Not terribly interested in a dex build. Set aside the minor annoyance of being stuck with a versatile weapon until level 3 when a pact weapon can allow two handed weapons to work with hex warrior. It's progression!

Of course, building for melee feat-wise means war caster or res:con are delayed.

So:

Would you bother? Would you monoclass hexblade or be strongly pressed to dip fighter (at creation) for saves/armor/etc, and a bit more freedom of patron? Once you go down that route - why only dip? The more fighter you take the less constrained your invocations are. The same might be said for bard (valor/swords - two attacks and tons of LR slots), spelled or spellless ranger, etc. What's the impetus to stick with warlock if the plan is melee? Foresight? Scatter? (admittedly quite cool). At what point do you just throw up your hands and dip warlock for the feel of it and pour most of your levels into something like fighter? A fighter 6/warlock 3 would feel much much more robust in melee and still have most of the fun things from warlock; and you could follow that all the way out to fighter 11/warlock 9.

Set fluff mostly aside here.

Why monoclass warlock if the plan is melee?

[Unoriginal]

Monoclass Hexblade Warlock is more than fine as a melee combatant. All the Patrons have interesting combos with the Pact of the Blade, too, though the Fiend tends to attract the most Blade Warlocks.

Monoclass Warlock will never be solely a melee specialist, of course, because their toolkit is both too wide and oriented in other directions to allow that level of specialization. Same as why Bladesinger Wizard is still a Wizard first. But they can be quite decent in melee and have a bag of other tricks.

EDIT:

As for the "why go monoclass warlock if the plan is melee?" question, I first have to point out: it's not like Tomelock or Chainlock are straightforward ranged combatants either.

A Warlock's main contribution in a fight (or in academia, for that matter) is the mystical equivalent of a knee in the groin. They won't ever be first place at the number game, but they don't have to when they change the factors of the fight until it gives them the edge. That's not dependent on range.

[Mr Adventurer]

Monoclass Warlock will never be solely a melee specialist, of course, because their toolkit is both too wide and oriented in other directions to allow that level of specialization. Same as why Bladesinger Wizard is still a Wizard first. But they can be quite decent in melee and have a bag of other tricks.

EDIT:

As for the "why go monoclass warlock if the plan is melee?" question, I first have to point out: it's not like Tomelock or Chainlock are straightforward ranged combatants either.

A Warlock's main contribution in a fight (or in academia, for that matter) is the mystical equivalent of a knee in the groin. They won't ever be first place at the number game, but they don't have to when they change the factors of the fight until it gives them the edge. That's not dependent on range.

Interesting - what do you mean by this?

The reason I ask is that whenever I build a Warlock, the breadth or specialisation seems to entirely depend upon the invocation and spells known selections I make. It's not that the class is always too wide or multidirectional in itself. You can do it that way, and even do it that way easily. But I do find that when building a melee Warlock, it's very easy to spend all of your character build decisions on just that melee approach with nothing going anywhere else.

[iTreeby]

Well Darkness +devils sight+elven accuracy crit fishing is an option, but only works with GWM is you are a hexblade bladelock.

Personally id want the invocations Relentless Hex and Thief of Five Fates to teleport around the battlefield whacking people.

[Keravath]

The challenge with any melee warlock is to try to create a character that can do more damage in melee than it does with agonizing blast.

The baseline damage for a warlock using only the Agonizing blast invocation stats at d10+stat and goes up at levels 5, 11 and 17.

This is why most blade lock builds add in PAM and/or GWM because otherwise agonizing blast does more damage.

However, melee damage does more or less keep up. Using a greatsword is 2d6+stat. At level 5 with thirsting blade you get a second attack. Improved pact weapon can give you a magic weapon early in the game.

At level 12, Lifedrinker helps the melee blade lock keep up with 3 blasts from eldritch blast. The third AB averages 10.5 while Lifedrinker adds +10 to the two melee attacks which about evens out.

So without any feats, a melee bladelock is about the same as agonizing blast through tier 3 which is about equal to the other classes without PAM/GWM/SS/Xbow Expert.

The real benefits of the blade lock are for offense/defense ... they have darkness+devils sight and later shadows of moil or possibly greater invisibility to give them advantage on attack rolls and disadvantage to be hit. Most other classes don't have the built in abilities of a warlock to achieve this. Alternatively, they can cast hex to boost their baseline damage further ... another option most other classes don't have.

The main issue with blade locks before the hexblade were the lack of medium armor+shield and the requirement to be MAD with a good attack stat and a good charisma. Haxblade solves both these issues. These options make the hexblade about comparable to the other melee options if the four feats that can either boost damage or adds bonus action attacks are left out. On the other hand if you want a melee blade lock that will do more damage than agonizing blast through to level 20 then the feats are needed (and they still have AB as a great ranged option).

[Mr Adventurer]

The challenge with any melee warlock is to try to create a character that can do more damage in melee than it does with agonizing blast.

I have found this extremely easy to do by not taking Agonising Blast invocation nor Eldritch Blast cantrip.

[Frogreaver]

I think pure hexblade. If you want to use a greatsword and a different subclass I think multiclassing for heavy armor early is required.

So the real question is how would I play a hexblade warlock. I would put most of my focus into eldritch smite (from level 5+). It's concentration free and provides guaranteed prone on most enemies, which can be a huge party buff. I'd focus mostly on combat spells without concentration or non-combat utility spells otherwise.

Eldritch Blast is a serviceable ranged attack for a greatsword using charisma focused character, even without agonizing blast. At some point I would probably pick up agonizing blast.

By the time you factor in the eldtrich smites and your hexblades curse, and giving allies advantage you aren't too far off in damage from a greatsword using GWM fighter, and you have alot more out of combat versatility.

By higher levels you get tons more goodies (which is why I wouldn't delay warlock progression).
1. More short rest slots and even if these are just used for eldritch smite - it's a nice buff
2. Another melee damage invocation.
3. Actual high level spells.

[Unoriginal]

Interesting - what do you mean by this?

The reason I ask is that whenever I build a Warlock, the breadth or specialisation seems to entirely depend upon the invocation and spells known selections I make. It's not that the class is always too wide or multidirectional in itself. You can do it that way, and even do it that way easily. But I do find that when building a melee Warlock, it's very easy to spend all of your character build decisions on just that melee approach with nothing going anywhere else.

What I mean is, even the most melee-specialized Warlock will still be less specialized than a melee-specialized Fighter or Paladin.

In the sense that even if you take the most melee-focused race, subclass, Patron, Invocations, spells, and ASIs/feats, you'll still have to select non-melee combat stuff (or at least, not strictly melee combat stuff) to an extent, as the number of melee option is smaller than the number of options you have to select.

At least it's my impression.

[Keravath]

I have found this extremely easy to do by not taking Agonising Blast invocation nor Eldritch Blast cantrip.

That is always a choice you can make for role playing reasons ... but personally, I don't like making a sub optimal character just for the purpose of saying "Look I can do more damage with my sword because it is the only damage I can do! YEAH!". Especially, since even when playing a melee character, at some point you will want the ability to do decent ranged damage. (Most strength based melee characters have this issue ... javelins not withstanding).

I have a level 11 character, 10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer that went the resilient con/PAM/GWM route and he is lots of fun to play but I still picked up Agonizing Blast to go with the Eldritch blast cantrip and for that build ... PAM+GWM will be more effective than AB through to level 20. So even if I was playing a melee blade lock without PAM+GWM, I'd still pick up AB because it is too useful in many situations the character might face to ignore it.

That may speak to the "over" usefulness of one cantrip+one invocation compared to other options but it is still something to consider when playing a character. Would the character really decide to ignore EB for philosophical reasons? And what would those be?

[Frogreaver]

The challenge with any melee warlock is to try to create a character that can do more damage in melee than it does with agonizing blast.

That's not particularly hard - it just takes alot of spellslot resources. Dumping slots into eldritch smite basically guarantees you can keep up with EB + Hex + Agonizing blast damage. Then you get to give allies advantage by knocking the enemy prone (and possibly your 2nd attack that turn as well). And heck, the meleelock has the potential to push out a bit more damage with GWM as well.

I'm not saying it's a better build than a ranged warlock. I tend to think highly of Hypnotic Pattern followed by EB+Agonizing blast. But in terms of damage its at least comparable to the EB+Agonizing Blast+Hex warlock (likely a bit higher).

[Pex]

It doesn't have to be about being the best. It doesn't even matter if Agonizing Eldritch Blast does a few extra points of damage. What's important is being decent enough in melee and range, the versatility. Wizards, Sorcerers, and non-Moon Druids don't like being in melee, so they need to find away to get away. A melee warlock doesn't have to. Blast away as a Bladelock with Agonizing Eldritch Blast all you want just like every other warlock. You are not forbidden from doing so. However, when the enemy gets in your face anyway you have no need to panic. You are just as capable as a melee combatant. If you want to run up into the enemy's face and hack away, go for it. You're not losing anything.

In conclusion, the most important thing in building a monoclass melee warlock is your personal attitude about it. You don't have to be the best, just be good enough.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I've been kicking around a few concepts lately, and I'm struggling to "get" what the heck they did with warlocks and pact of the blade. Knowing what we know now about the system, how would you do it - or would you tell a player not to do it? I've played blaster warlocks and other melee-ish casters, but not a blade lock. As I look it over - I'm just not getting it.

~~~

So:

Would you bother? Would you monoclass hexblade or be strongly pressed to dip fighter (at creation) for saves/armor/etc, and a bit more freedom of patron? Once you go down that route - why only dip? The more fighter you take the less constrained your invocations are. The same might be said for bard (valor/swords - two attacks and tons of LR slots), spelled or spellless ranger, etc. What's the impetus to stick with warlock if the plan is melee? Foresight? Scatter? (admittedly quite cool). At what point do you just throw up your hands and dip warlock for the feel of it and pour most of your levels into something like fighter? A fighter 6/warlock 3 would feel much much more robust in melee and still have most of the fun things from warlock; and you could follow that all the way out to fighter 11/warlock 9.

Set fluff mostly aside here.

Why monoclass warlock if the plan is melee?

IDK! There is little benefit, mechanically!

To me, this is the reason I like multiclassing: because you don't have to answer these questions.

Personally, I would be bored out of my mind if I had to play a single-class melee warlock (or any warlock), which is why I never stick with the class when I'm crafting my builds. I think Pact of the Blade works when there's a focus on Dex and a multiclass in another class that already covers the options of the other Pacts. I go Dex mainly for the Armor of Shadows Invocation, which gives free Mage Armor, as well as the other benefits.

I would recommend a Blade Pact Warlock that focuses more on the blade cantrips like BB (and to a lesser extent, GFB), and uses stuff like Darkness to gain Advantage and make room for BB riders.

I would generally recommend multiclassing in either Abjurer Wizard, Arcane Trickster, or Eldritch Knight, with only a 3 level dip in Warlock.

[cutlery]

I have found this extremely easy to do by not taking Agonising Blast invocation nor Eldritch Blast cantrip.

The issue there is you won't have much in the way of ranged options, unless you go with improved pact weapon and spend an action to summon a bow. Having EB/AB in one's pocket for range moments is handy.

Also, the Grasp of Hadar invocation sounds really cool for a melee warlock - get over here!



What I mean is, even the most melee-specialized Warlock will still be less specialized than a melee-specialized Fighter or Paladin.


I think that's the attraction; And relentess hex is a really cool trick (that works better with hexblade as they don't need to worry about concentration with curse).

The way I see it, you've got a few must-have feats tied up (GWM, warcaster and/or res:con), some invocations tied up (thirsting blade, smite, improved pact weapon at least until you find a magic weapon; the accuracy maths out to pretty useful), you're sort of stuck doing a lot of that until 7th or 9th or so, but that's also when the cool second tier invocations become available.

Then there's the issue over having Shield available but the terrible choice of spending a leveled slot on it. At least Fey Touched can give you access to hex cast at 1st level once per LR, to help a bit with the spell slots problem.

Anyway, logic bomb:


But looking at, say, level 8; you've got 4 invocations; 9 spells known; 2 spell slots at 4th, and likely two attacks from thirsting blade. You've probably abandoned fiendish vigor by then, and if smite fun (and it sounds fun), you've probably spent all your invocations on combat (agonizing blast, grasp of hadar, thirsting blade, eldritch smite). You get another at 9, of course, and maybe a few of your spells are out of combat utility.

I suppose you could do without AB and Grasp for now, which would open up slots for mask of many faces or beguiling influence; if you want to mix in stuff like devil's sight or relentless hex or cloak of flies you're out of luck until 12 or so.

Also there's a Specter sometimes. I guess that's cool?

Meanwhile, at 8, an eldritch knight just gained their second free slot (and can move their first up to 2nd level if they wish), for 6 spells per day and 6 spells known. The EK gains just as much utility from the Fey Touched feat (two slots and two spells known) and could take hex or hunter's mark as their level 1 enchantment/divination spell; so their melee capabilities are probably similar. No smite, but slots that feel ok to burn on shield, about as much combat teleportation as the hexblade, and probably similar damage (2d6+str+hunters mark). Much better con saves, too.

The warlock can blink, so that's in their favor, and the warlock is likely better at ranged damage than the EK, even without invocations boosting eldritch blast (with AB, it's no contest); as the EK will probably only have an int of 12-16, and may have dumped dex. None of the rest are reaching for a SCAG cantrip but the EK, because of war magic - so that's potentially an extra 1d8 for them when they have the bonus action free; and of course they have action surge.

The bladesinger is pouring level 3 spell slots into shadow blade at this point, and may even have better AC than the eldritch knight. They're getting 3d8+dex twice a round - and they wouldn't need Fey Touched to open up spells known/slots - so they may already have war caster.

The swords bard doesn't have blink, misty step, a greatsword, but they do get dueling. Very different stylistically (like the bladesinger) and like the bladesinger they have a ton of spell slots. Bardic Inspiration can be used like mini-battlemaster maneuvers, too, which is interesting. They're looking at 1d6+2+str/dex. Unless, of course, they dip hexblade, but let's not think of that.

I think the real thematic competition here is from the Eldritch Knight. Similar short rest recovery, limited spells known and slots, easy access to greatweapons and amor. So, we mark off the bladesinger and swords bard as doing something different.

We then follow the EK and Hexblade into Tier 3; level 11-12 - and that's where it gets weird.


The EK can attack three times, so war magic is mostly just a ribbon feature now, save for scenarios where they can hit two target with GFB or really want the threat of the BB rider, or aren't using GWM for reasons. (2d6 + str + GWM10)*3 or just 2d6+str if the time isn't right for GWM. So, in a lucky round where all three hit, they're looking at 66 damage; or 69 damage if they took the GWF style; plus 3 doses of mark if they went that route (10.5).

The EK is hurting for spell slots, still, having only moved up to 7 total; (plus two bonus if they took fey touched - that still looks like a useful feat for them). HP are good, action surge is still action surge, and they have indomitable for emergencies. They are at least one feat ahead of the warlock now, too (possibly two, unless they take res:wis when the lock takes res:con). The EK may or may not have taken war caster. Eldritch strike is now online for the occasional action surge->hold person after a hit.

The warlock now has, finally, 3 level 9 5 slots. 6 Invocations, and one 6th level Mystic Arcanum.
If they pay the melee invocation tax (TB,LD,ES,IPW) they are managing (2d6 +2xcha +gwm10)*2; with the option to smite. They can also play the morning sacrifice game to have an all-day hex, provided they maintain concentration, and likely still have a level 1 version (from Fey Touched) as backup. so, 54 plus 7 from hex. A bit behind.

With curse on the target, their crit rate doubles and they're also laying 4 points of extra damage per strike; which is beginning to be a nice boost. This takes two rounds to set up, of course, but on the other hand curse can be treated like one more short rest hexlike ability. Anyway, on a glory round with both up, (2d6+2cha+gwm+hex+curse)*2 = 69, or 72 with IPW. How about that?

They've got enough spare invocations for AB and possibly grasp of hadar unless there is a crucial out of combat one; and of course EB+AB+Hex+Curse is powerful - (5.5+cha+3.5+4)*3 = 54, and the occasional drag of a melee target 30' into range. Usually less than that, of course, as both hex and curse up isn't likely. Better accuracy, though, as they don't need to use GWM. Against an AC 17 target, EB beats out melee, with or without GWM, with one of either hex or curse, and continues to outperform as target AC climbs unless IPW is factored in. Melee is in the lead ranging from AC 10 to 30, with or without hex or curse - the accuracy and extra point of damage do the trick.

But that's nearly all of their invocations. They have 11 spells known, and (if hexblade) can use blink (no concentration, this is important). Two other slots for smites or other spells - a hexblade using cone of cold here will out evocate the EK by a country mile - no contest there, at all. And Shadow of Moil or Greater Invis, too.

The Arcanum could be big utility (scatter), control (mass suggestion), or investigation/thematic/light healing (Soul Cage). Better choose wisely, though, because you only ever get to pick once.


Seems like, in some circumstances, the Hexblade is on top, but what about Tier 4?


Here the fighter is really a mostly a fighter.

At level 17:
Melee:
The EK has the same three attacks for basically the same damage as above.

So, roughly the same 69 melee damage best case. Arcane Charge is really cool; and twice per SR; Indomitable is up to 3.

The Hexblade is doing a bit more damage as curse scaled up. Both may have magic weapons at this point, which (1) frees up IPW, and (2) closes the damage gap, with the EKs third attack I'll call this a wash; once the EK is swinging a flametongue the extra attack is likely superior.

Melee now lags behind Eldritch Blast, unless a +3 weapon is available to the warlock (a +2 is just barely behind around ac 17-23, and a +3 is a solid point or two per round better, with accuracy factored in)

Casting:
The EK has added level 3 slots (blink, finally, if they want it. And fireball - yay?).

The Warlock has 4 5th level pact slots now; and all four arcanums; this could mean advantage on everything for 8 hours a day, Scatter, Crown of Stars (I'd ask to reflavor that as necrotic because, well. Warlock), and something bonkers like Maddening Darkness.

CoS is like Melf's Minute Meteors but better in nearly all the ways. Good damage type, no concentration, big damage. Good for a slow nova fight (as opposed to a supernova), good use of bonus actions; and will apply hex and curse as it is a spell attack. Also - 4d12 damage!

Maddening Darkness is situational, but like CoS is to Melf's, Maddening Darkness is to Hunger of Hadar. Good, because HoH doesn't scale (what is up with warlock-specific spells that don't scale?)

No contest in the casting department, really. The warlock could also have things like force cage, blade of disaster, psychic scream - powerful stuff.

One more invocation, too, and access to the level 15 restricted stuff - like at-will invisibility.



That's all really fantastic; but it's the caster side that wins in Tier 4. Perhaps that is as it should be; it doesn't really look anything like what the bladesinger or bard are doing in Tier 4.

At this point, too, there isn't much reason to go further in warlock; so a few fighter levels make sense (or, would have made sense back at the beginning, if you could stomach the slowed down caster progression - when compared to anyone but a full caster it would still be pretty great).

IPW does manage to pick up the slack more than I had given it credit for relative to EB; A shame the UA greater pact invocations are gone, but I guess an effective +3 via class features was too much.

[Tanarii]

Definitely. Unless you're doing the Darkness-Devil'sSight-for-advantage thing, which I personally view as not very party-friendly. Unless your DM eschews the "Darkness is an Inky Blot" interpretation*, in which case you don't even need Devil's sight and the entire party should abuse it.

If you're in the level range 4-11, are not using Hex, and have easy access to advantage, GWM is okay. (Edit: sorry understatement, it's good in this case.)

If you're in the level range 12+ (+Cha to each attack) or use Hex or do not have easy advantage, GWM is typically not worth it. If you get a weapon that adds significantly to damage definitely not worth it.

It doesn't take much base damage on a non-advantage attack to make GWM a poor choice against most commonly encountered ACs, and Hexing Warlocks (and Smiting Paladins and some HM Rangers for that matter) can quickly surpass it. Fighters don't surpass it as quickly because they rely on iterative attacks. And Barbarians are usually attacking with advantage so of course they GWM constantly.

*"Inky Blot" Darkness is pretty universal, technically not RAW, almost certainly RAI

[cutlery]

It doesn't take much base damage on a non-advantage attack to make GWM a poor choice against most commonly encountered ACs, and Hexing Warlocks (and Smiting Paladins and some HM Rangers for that matter) can quickly surpass it.

Yep, been there and wrote the spreadsheet. GWM is a bit better than I thought it might be for many ACs, though, and is much stronger when advantage is available.

At level 8 with main stat +5 and a greatsword, with two attacks, GWM wins out at ACs below 18; and ties with non-GWM at 18 (with or without hex+curse). Non-GWM wins at AC 17 with hex+curse, but loses without, and GWM has a clear lead below that. This changes as prof bonus increases (and in weird ways with curse, as that damage rider also increases).

Magic weapons change everything, of course, but generally they push the tipping point up a point per bonus (not quite, because of the damage add, but close). After AC 20 there's not much use to GWM; even with magic weapons.

[Tanarii]

You shouldn't need spreadsheets, the formula is:
Maximum AC = attack bonus - damage/2 + 16

And attack stat 20 at level 8 means no GWM or a Vuman. It also means a Hexblade or low Cha warlock. More usually you're looking at Str 18 / Cha 18 at level 12, and often still no room for GWM unless you made a Vuman. So if you fit in GWM, average damage 18.5 with Hex before magic weapon, hit of +8, max AC 14. At level 12 that's quite low. (Edit2: without Hex this goes up to AC 16, more reasonable.)

Edit: for advantage the formula is:
Maximum AC = 0.5*(2*Attack Bonus + sqrt(damage^2+10*damage+1600) - damage - 8)
I had to look that one up in an old thread :smallwink:

[Frogreaver]

The issue there is you won't have much in the way of ranged options, unless you go with improved pact weapon and spend an action to summon a bow. Having EB/AB in one's pocket for range moments is handy.

Also, the Grasp of Hadar invocation sounds really cool for a melee warlock - get over here!

Ranged for you is an option you'll only use if you must. I think you are wanting to spend to many invocations on something that should come up relatively rarely. I'd even hesitate to spend 1 invocation on it.


The way I see it, you've got a few must-have feats tied up (GWM, warcaster and/or res:con), some invocations tied up (thirsting blade, smite, improved pact weapon at least until you find a magic weapon; the accuracy maths out to pretty useful), you're sort of stuck doing a lot of that until 7th or 9th or so, but that's also when the cool second tier invocations become available.

I don't think the Hexblade has any must have feats (maybe in tier 3/4). Ideally you will be relying on smites and not concentration spells for most of the game. Especially if as you said in the OP, no variant human for strong offensive or concentration feats.


Then there's the issue over having Shield available but the terrible choice of spending a leveled slot on it. At least Fey Touched can give you access to hex cast at 1st level once per LR, to help a bit with the spell slots problem.

Ignore shield. Use a slot on armor of agathys if you need survivability right now.



Magic weapons change everything, of course, but generally they push the tipping point up a point per bonus (not quite, because of the damage add, but close). After AC 20 there's not much use to GWM; even with magic weapons.

Magic weapons can just as easily add damage and no accuracy as +X/+X.

[Benny89]

Well, first of all, just to be clear: nothing will be better in melee than PAM + GWM and nothing will be better at range than SS + Xbow Expert. That's the end. Those feats synergize just too well with Warlock early Devil's Sight + Darkness, Hexblade CHA to all attacks and later Shadow of Moil, which is superior Greater Invisibility in combat. Hexblade is just natural GWM and SS class to play.

However, we can still make it work by using the following things:

Dual Wielding with Hexblade.

Shadow Blade with Dex Lock.

So Dual Wielding path:

It's actually quite potent with Hexblade, but again - won't be as good as PAM + GWM. You take Hexblade, you take Pact of The Blade, Thristing Blade and 1 level in Fighter for Two Weapon Fighting Style.

Since as Hexblade you can use two weapons with your CHA: One from Hex Warrior and one from Pact of the Blade.

Both attacks still benefit from Life Drinker on level 12 (13 here) and from Curse.

Add to that Elven Accuracy and Shadow of Moil and you have nice set up for good DPR.

Bonus Action: Curse, Action: Shadow of Moil

You attack 3 times with 2x Scimitars. You deal 1d6 + 6 + 5 + 5 damage each hit and you have double advantage (3xd20) and 19-20 crit range. If you can get advantage from other team member - cast Hex instead to attack with 2d6 + 6 + 5 + 5.

Shadow Blade with Dex:

So here we use Shadow Blade as our source of damage (2d8 up to 4d8 form 5th level slot so max Warlock slot). It's Finesse weapon so we need DEX.

So we start as Half-Elf with 16 DEX, 15 CON and 17 CHA and go Elven Accuracy +1 CHA, +2 DEX, RES (CON) if 15 CON or War Caster, +2 CHA, +2 DEX.

Nothing really outstanding here. You still get Life Drinker bonus to hits, you can go Hexblade for 19-20 crit range because Shadow Blade can crit for nice 8d8 per hit with that and Shadow Blade gives you advantage in dim light or in darkness (where you see thanks to Devil's Sight).

It sadly sucks in bright areas and since SB is conc you can't cast SoM or Darkness without gimping your damage.

So I recommend to only go for SB if you see it can gives you advantage. If not - cast Darkness or SOM and spamm Agonizing Blast.




That's it I guess.

[stoutstien]

Im a fan of the celestial tomelock for pure warlock Melee builds. Just has the right feel and has more flexibility and utility.

[cutlery]

Magic weapons can just as easily add damage and no accuracy as +X/+X.

Sure, and whatever that mix may be will change the tipping point; as does hex uptime. GWM is worth ~2.5 dpr or so against AC 15 at level 5 growing to around 4 points later; which isn't all that exciting.

Forgoing EB invocations, at least part of the time, would help open up slots for things like relentless hex (though with action economy being what it is, that's only of situational use - as a counter to another frequent combat teleporter, perhaps); I figure grasp of hadar will be too handy not to take, but that's more about forcing melee than eldritch blasting as a main damage source. Pulling a target off a squishier target? That just sounds cool. No real need for agonizing blast in that use case, though.

[Frogreaver]

Well, first of all, just to be clear: nothing will be better in melee than PAM + GWM and nothing will be better at range than SS + Xbow Expert. That's the end. Those feats synergize just too well with Warlock early Devil's Sight + Darkness, Hexblade CHA to all attacks and later Shadow of Moil, which is superior Greater Invisibility in combat. Hexblade is just natural GWM and SS class to play.



Depends on the class/subclasses.

Rangers benefit very little with SS -5/+10. Most Paladins benefit very little with GWM -5/+10.

Warlocks have the abilities to make use of GWM, it's just there are alot of hurdles to overcome with them doing so. They need advantage to do so and their sources of advantage take an action to cast and require concentration. They have low concentration saves without spending feats or ASI's on them. Their best damage synergy requires an additional feat - elven accuracy and removes the option of variant human for starting with. Essentially a melee GWM+PAM build is a feat starved build.

Using smites instead of advantage granting buff spells solves the concentration issue.

I'm thinking of a combo like this: Elven Accuracy + Eldritch Smite + GWM. On first attack do so without -5/+10. Eldritch smite and knock the enemy prone. On the 2nd attack use -5/+10 because you have super advantage.


Sure, and whatever that mix may be will change the tipping point; as does hex uptime. GWM is worth ~2.5 dpr or so against AC 15 at level 5 growing to around 4 points later; which isn't all that exciting.

Forgoing EB invocations, at least part of the time, would help open up slots for things like relentless hex (though with action economy being what it is, that's only of situational use - as a counter to another frequent combat teleporter, perhaps); I figure grasp of hadar will be too handy not to take, but that's more about forcing melee than eldritch blasting as a main damage source. Pulling a target off a squishier target? That just sounds cool. No real need for agonizing blast in that use case, though.

I think your right about Grasp of Hadar being better than Agonizing blast. If you were to pick 1 up that would be it. That said I'm thinking something like False life invocation that can give you 8 temp hp per combat would be pretty nice. There's also the cloak of flies invocation which makes your melee even better once per short rest. It's going to add 4-5 in encounters its used in all by itself.

GWM does have one thing going for it. The bonus action attack on a crit or kill probably triggers about 20% of the time. An extra attack 20% of the time adds another few points of DPR. It's an often forgotten benefit.

That said, I agree with you, that unless you have some major accuracy fixes, it's just not typically worth it. And those accuracy fixes better not cost you attack actions or it's often even worse.

[Hellpyre]

As far as it goes, I'd like to echo Grasp of Hadar. It is excellent at both closing with ranged opponents and working OAs to your favor. With Sentinel and Grasp, you can pull an enemy off a sqishier ally and lock them in place. If a sniper is above your team, you can often pull them down from the edge.

But in general, I recommend embracing the odd midpoint between EK and caster-gish that Bladelock brings to the table. Don't dump all of your invocations into wishing you'd rolled a fighter, just use enough that you feel competent in melee and pick up strong utility invocations. If you have (as in OP) a generous stat allocation, you could skip Hexblade for GOO patron, take Eyes of the Runekeeper, and have communication with anything literate for a campaign heavy on unexplored wilderness or ancient cultures. You could get any number of invocations to assist in being stealthier than most other gishes can afford to be - Eldritch Sight, Mask of Many Faces, Misty Visions (especially with the Actor feat), and One With Shadows all spring to mind.

Basically, the why on Bladelock as a gish is improved access to magical at-wills versus focusing heavier on attacks (like an EK) or heavier on spells (like a Bladesinger). You occupy more of the middle ground between gishes, in much the same way that gishes offer a middle ground between casters and martials.

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If you have (as in OP) a generous stat allocation, you could skip Hexblade for GOO patron

It would have to be really generous; as such a bladelock would be quite MAD; needing str, dex, con, and cha.

In that situation they're having a much harder time keeping up with the EK on the melee front (which is perhaps as it should be). The patron fluff isn't exciting, but the patron spell list is pretty nice (as is the curse, which can be thought of sort of as one concentration-free hex per SR, and the defensive benefit from it is neat).

I think it is a bit interesting that a monoclass hexblade isn't really that strong relative to other melee/caster types, despite how busted hex warrior is for other classes dipping hexblade.

[Blood of Gaea]

I'm not sure if this goes against the spirit of request, but I actually prefer GWM + Elven Accuracy, and often never bother taking PAM, even up to 20th level. Warlocks have pretty good bonus action, and with a super high crit chance, you already get a decent handful of bonus action attacks.

I'll post my Hexblade build here, apologies if there are any issues with the format I missed, I keep it set up to copy and paste onto Reddit.

-----

Race: Half-Elf (Drow)

Str: 8 or 10
Dex: 13+1
Con: 14+1
Int: 8 or 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 15+2

ASI 1: Elven Accuracy +1 Cha

ASI 2: Great Weapon Master

ASI 3: +2 Cha

ASI 4: Resilient Constitution

ASI 5: Lucky, Warcaster, Tough, or Polearm Master

Invocations in Order:

Devil's Sight
Agonizing Blast
Agonizing Blast -> Improved Pact Weapon
Thirsting Blade
Agonizing Blast
Trickster's Escape
Lifedrinker
Eldritch Smite
Tomb of Levistus

From levels 3-6, use Darkness to give yourself advantage, keep your allies and the current situation in mind when utilizing it.

From levels 7-16, Shadow of Moil will usually be used over Darkness, but sometimes Darkness will be very useful for your party, keep it in mind.

From level 17-20, use Foresight to grant advantage in the majority of your fights.

Hexblade spells:

1st: +Armor of Agathys, +Expeditious Retreat.

3rd: -Expeditious Retreat, +Darkness

4th: +Hold Person

5th: +Hypnotic Pattern

6th: +Fly

7th: +Shadow of Moil

8th: +Dimension Door

9th: +Synaptic Static

11th: From this point, just grab whatever interests you, you have the selection I consider very important.

Mystic Arcanum: Mass Suggestion, Crown of Stars OR Forcecage OR Planeshift, Demiplane OR Feeblemind OR Glibness, Foresight OR True Polymorph.

----

It makes for a pretty strong build, though you _do_ run into action economy issues. This is a PC that really wants to buff before a fight begins.

[RSP]

Currently playing a 13 Hexblade Blade Warlock, and found 1-10 it works very well for melee, but around 11, it starts feeling underwhelming at melee. So, I’d say doable depending on what level you’re thinking the campaign goes to.

There’s multiple reasons for this but essentially, the main ones I’ve found are:

- Hits start doing more damage, you’re getting hit more often, and there’s no real way to mitigate that damage. Pure martials tend to have some way to deal with this, be it Rage or Uncanny Dodge, whatever; but the best a Bladelock has is Hexblade’s Armor of Hexes, which is unreliable even when available.

I went so far as to have a Ring of Spell Storing filled with Shield. It helps but you’re still getting rocked for about a 1/3rd of your HP, per hit, against heavy hitters like giants. You simply have a difficult time hanging up front all day. And no, you never want to use Shield with a 5th level slot.

Plus, after 9, AoA stops scaling, while damage continues to increase. Up until 9th, AoA is usually effective to absorb 1.5-2 hits and dealing its damage 2x. After 9, it’s basically absorbing about a hit, while a lot of times not dealing any damage: around that 11 level mark, enemies do more ranged, spells and other, non-melee sources of damage (breathe weapons for instance).

- You’re using all your Invocations just to keep up with good damage output, and, if using Eldritch Smite, your spell slots too. Yes, Hexblades are on the plus-side with single target damage; but it’s essentially all they do.

You’re also probably needing good Dex (14 with Med Armor) and Con, and either Res (Con) or Warcaster. It’s a lot to invest in, and you don’t even get to use some of the best “gish” spells: Shadow Blade, Haste or Tensor’s Transformation.

- You still want Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast for when you’re not in melee range. And once you hit 11, you’re doing comparable damage with 3 blasts of EB as non-ES Attack Actions.

——

Add these all up and around 11, you’re wondering why you’re in melee getting smacked, when you be using Repelling Blast to do as much damage while taking none. And then you could be doing Synaptic Static to debuff the opponents, Sickening Radiance + RB for control + damage, or doing Far Step for even better maneuverability.

At least this is basically what I’ve found through 13. You can successfully melee through 10-ish, and be okay; but your survivability drops significantly around 11, and new tactics are needed.

I think the Bladesinger pushes farther as a melee full caster as it gets SB to continually scale melee Attack damage; TT as a fun buff at 11; and, most importantly, Song of Defense to mitigate damage when needed.

[Hellpyre]

It would have to be really generous; as such a bladelock would be quite MAD; needing str, dex, con, and cha..

The thing is, unless you're married to 2-handing, you don't really need STR. Finesse weapons are perfectly servicable melee options, even though they don't get the snazzy -5/+10 GWM potential, and you get to throw in a shield on top of it.

[cutlery]

The thing is, unless you're married to 2-handing,

Married and renewed vows; it’s core to the character concept. So much so I think I’d have to take a level of fighter (at 1st, probably) to even consider other patrons.

[Hellpyre]

Married and renewed vows; it’s core to the character concept. So much so I think I’d have to take a level of fighter (at 1st, probably) to even consider other patrons.

Well, in that case, yes, Hex Warrior is going to be central to maintaining any kind of damage parity for someone wanting to survive in melee. Though I do still recommend (if this for the fabled all-gish party) taking at will invocations to distinguish the character from an EK. Misty Visions in particular is a lot of power over plain Minor Illusion, and if you accept that you need to dedicate a lot of build resources to keep up with the fighter, settling for slightly less and picking up utility the others can't as readily cover seems like the best plan for leaving the character with scenes to shine in.

Do take GWM for that, but check with your party before looking at Devil's Sight. It can make melee optimization on other members get hurt when they lose the ability to have advantage on attacks.

[Benny89]

Currently playing a 13 Hexblade Blade Warlock, and found 1-10 it works very well for melee, but around 11, it starts feeling underwhelming at melee. So, I’d say doable depending on what level you’re thinking the campaign goes to.

There’s multiple reasons for this but essentially, the main ones I’ve found are:

- Hits start doing more damage, you’re getting hit more often, and there’s no real way to mitigate that damage. Pure martials tend to have some way to deal with this, be it Rage or Uncanny Dodge, whatever; but the best a Bladelock has is Hexblade’s Armor of Hexes, which is unreliable even when available.

I went so far as to have a Ring of Spell Storing filled with Shield. It helps but you’re still getting rocked for about a 1/3rd of your HP, per hit, against heavy hitters like giants. You simply have a difficult time hanging up front all day. And no, you never want to use Shield with a 5th level slot.

Plus, after 9, AoA stops scaling, while damage continues to increase. Up until 9th, AoA is usually effective to absorb 1.5-2 hits and dealing its damage 2x. After 9, it’s basically absorbing about a hit, while a lot of times not dealing any damage: around that 11 level mark, enemies do more ranged, spells and other, non-melee sources of damage (breathe weapons for instance).

- You’re using all your Invocations just to keep up with good damage output, and, if using Eldritch Smite, your spell slots too. Yes, Hexblades are on the plus-side with single target damage; but it’s essentially all they do.

You’re also probably needing good Dex (14 with Med Armor) and Con, and either Res (Con) or Warcaster. It’s a lot to invest in, and you don’t even get to use some of the best “gish” spells: Shadow Blade, Haste or Tensor’s Transformation.

- You still want Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast for when you’re not in melee range. And once you hit 11, you’re doing comparable damage with 3 blasts of EB as non-ES Attack Actions.

——

Add these all up and around 11, you’re wondering why you’re in melee getting smacked, when you be using Repelling Blast to do as much damage while taking none. And then you could be doing Synaptic Static to debuff the opponents, Sickening Radiance + RB for control + damage, or doing Far Step for even better maneuverability.

At least this is basically what I’ve found through 13. You can successfully melee through 10-ish, and be okay; but your survivability drops significantly around 11, and new tactics are needed.

I think the Bladesinger pushes farther as a melee full caster as it gets SB to continually scale melee Attack damage; TT as a fun buff at 11; and, most importantly, Song of Defense to mitigate damage when needed.

Wierd as I was playing Hexblade warlock till level 17 and from level 12+ I felt the strongest because I got Life Drinker, War Caster, GWM, PAM and Repelling Blast.

I mitigated a lot of damage as most enemies were attacking me with disadvantage and I had 19 AC (Half-Plate +1, Cloak of Protection) at level 13. At leve 15+ I had 22 AC due to better magic items.

Not only It was hard to hit me but I couldn't be targeted by any spells that requires "see target" (because of Shadow of Moil), which is tons of spells, including nasty stuff like Finger of Death, Disintegration, Banishment etc. etc. tons of spells.

I was attacking with advantage with 20 CHA with Glaive +2, dealing easy 1d10 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 2 damage per hit without Curse on target.

Also since I am not provoking attacks of opportunity (because of Shadow of Moil) and I was using 10 feet reach weapon, I was attacking from behind my melee teammates, using striker tactics - go in, attack, go out without provoking OAs.

PAM reaction attack + Warcaster + Repelling Blast + Agonizing Blast allowed for pushing back anyone who was charging at me 30 feeet away, which in most cases meant they couldn't get to me in their turn.

I was the least hit/downed melee character in my party (which included Paladin, Barbarian and Tempest Cleric) while dealing the most steady DPS (Paladin could Nova more). When I got haste on me from our Wizard and Holy Weapon from Cleric I almost single handly ended tons of encounters.

So I have no idea why you say that you are worse in melee 11+ level, while in my opinion when you get Life Drinker you are actually even better. And vs bosses you add Armor of Hexes and you are golden.

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Wierd as I was playing Hexblade warlock till level 17 and from level 12+ I felt the strongest because I got Life Drinker, War Caster, GWM, PAM and Repelling Blast.

I mitigated a lot of damage as most enemies were attacking me with disadvantage and I had 19 AC (Half-Plate +1, Cloak of Protection) at level 13. At leve 15+ I had 22 AC due to better magic items.

Not only It was hard to hit me but I couldn't be targeted by any spells that requires "see target" (because of Shadow of Moil), which is tons of spells, including nasty stuff like Finger of Death, Disintegration, Banishment etc. etc. tons of spells.

I was attacking with advantage with 20 CHA with Glaive +2, dealing easy 1d10 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 2 damage per hit without Curse on target.

Also since I am not provoking attacks of opportunity (because of Shadow of Moil) and I was using 10 feet reach weapon, I was attacking from behind my melee teammates, using striker tactics - go in, attack, go out without provoking OAs.

PAM reaction attack + Warcaster + Repelling Blast + Agonizing Blast allowed for pushing back anyone who was charging at me 30 feeet away, which in most cases meant they couldn't get to me in their turn.

I was the least hit/downed melee character in my party (which included Paladin, Barbarian and Tempest Cleric) while dealing the most steady DPS (Paladin could Nova more). When I got haste on me from our Wizard and Holy Weapon from Cleric I almost single handly ended tons of encounters.

So I have no idea why you say that you are worse in melee 11+ level, while in my opinion when you get Life Drinker you are actually even better. And vs bosses you add Armor of Hexes and you are golden.

You didn’t read the spoilers.

Not interested in using a glaive (or any other polearm), though, in much the same way a dex build doesn’t fit.

Anyway, it’s nice you never got moil dispelled. It hasn’t worked that way for me with blastlocks, as most caster NPCs recognize the spell and how costly it is for the warlock if they dispel it. Plus, it’s a round of action spent. It will work sometimes, but not every time. You can’t bank on advantage (and that’s at range where you can exploit total cover). Maybe when foresight is on the table. Hex is usually a small enough use of concentration to get ignored. Blink/moil/g.invis, not so much. I have no reason to expect a melee warlock will be treated differently.

Moil can’t be upcast, either, so it is easy to upcast counter or dispel to stop it.

And that’s before even bringing up blindfighting and blindsight, and the associated concentration checks.

[Frogreaver]

Wierd as I was playing Hexblade warlock till level 17 and from level 12+ I felt the strongest because I got Life Drinker, War Caster, GWM, PAM and Repelling Blast.

I mitigated a lot of damage as most enemies were attacking me with disadvantage and I had 19 AC (Half-Plate +1, Cloak of Protection) at level 13. At leve 15+ I had 22 AC due to better magic items.

Not only It was hard to hit me but I couldn't be targeted by any spells that requires "see target" (because of Shadow of Moil), which is tons of spells, including nasty stuff like Finger of Death, Disintegration, Banishment etc. etc. tons of spells.

I was attacking with advantage with 20 CHA with Glaive +2, dealing easy 1d10 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 2 damage per hit without Curse on target.

Also since I am not provoking attacks of opportunity (because of Shadow of Moil) and I was using 10 feet reach weapon, I was attacking from behind my melee teammates, using striker tactics - go in, attack, go out without provoking OAs.

PAM reaction attack + Warcaster + Repelling Blast + Agonizing Blast allowed for pushing back anyone who was charging at me 30 feeet away, which in most cases meant they couldn't get to me in their turn.

I was the least hit/downed melee character in my party (which included Paladin, Barbarian and Tempest Cleric) while dealing the most steady DPS (Paladin could Nova more). When I got haste on me from our Wizard and Holy Weapon from Cleric I almost single handly ended tons of encounters.

So I have no idea why you say that you are worse in melee 11+ level, while in my opinion when you get Life Drinker you are actually even better. And vs bosses you add Armor of Hexes and you are golden.

1. You had +5 AC over a basic hexblade
2. You used hit and run tactics so enemies would focus more on your allies - leading to them taking the brunt of the damage - in a team based game I'm not sure that's actually a pro.

Ever considered those were the reasons you felt so survivable and if you weren't doing those things you would have been in for a major hurting?

[MrStabby]

There are some other options that maybe you shouldn't take off the table, at least if you are not going too high a level.

Say something like mountain dwarf - gets you the armour you want and some solid combat stats. Dump Charisma as low as you like... we are talking about not multiclassing so it isnt an issue.

Now use your spell slots for effects that dont need charisma - for offensive abilities you are taking the attack action anyway. From armour of agathys at level

For your patron - great old one has abilities that don't need charisma and gives some cool out of combat utility as well, but if you are allowed UA the genie warlock has a lot as well and access to some great non charisma spells.

Feats can be great weapon mastery, lucky and possibly mobile

[cutlery]

Mobile is definitely something I’d like, as I can reflavor it as teleportation related.

I fully expect this campaign (if I play the character) to reach 20.

Dwarf doesn’t work, as I see this character as at least 40% Madmartigan.

[Benny89]

You didn’t read the spoilers.

Not interested in using a glaive (or any other polearm), though, in much the same way a dex build doesn’t fit.

Anyway, it’s nice you never got moil dispelled. It hasn’t worked that way for me with blastlocks, as most caster NPCs recognize the spell and how costly it is for the warlock if they dispel it. Plus, it’s a round of action spent. It will work sometimes, but not every time. You can’t bank on advantage (and that’s at range where you can exploit total cover). Maybe when foresight is on the table. Hex is usually a small enough use of concentration to get ignored. Blink/moil/g.invis, not so much. I have no reason to expect a melee warlock will be treated differently.

Moil can’t be upcast, either, so it is easy to upcast counter or dispel to stop it.

And that’s before even bringing up blindfighting and blindsight, and the associated concentration checks.

I wonder how exactly most NPCs caster recognize SoM if it's WARLOCK exclusive spell that no other caster has access to? Also if enemy caster is wasting his action to dispel my SoM- it's good for us as he just wasted action and I can still attack, albeit without GWM bonus damage but i don't lack DPR with PAM, Curse, Life Drinker and Pact Weapon. And casters are not really highest HP or AC enemies. If Enemy caster is wasting action to dispel ONE spell from ONE party member then it means he didn't used any AoE spell on my party, didn't eliminate anyone on my party (via damage or control) and didn't boost his defense. Which means it's free turn for us to delete him. Besides I don't know what your party Wizard was doing by mine was Counterspelling enemy casters (and he was great at it thanks to being Abjurer).

I can bank on advantage as my DM is not azz where suddenly all NPCs know exclusive to Warlock spell, which is not only rare but attached to very rare caster class.

Besides if you have Hasted Paladin, SOM Warlock, Holy Weaponed Barbarian and Shepherd druid with tons of summons ready to torn you to pieces:

Good luck chosing which to dispel :). And dispelling one single effect is not really smart move from any caster. I would worry more about being smitted to death in one turn by Paladin or grappled by Barbarian.

[Benny89]

1. You had +5 AC over a basic hexblade
2. You used hit and run tactics so enemies would focus more on your allies - leading to them taking the brunt of the damage - in a team based game I'm not sure that's actually a pro.

Ever considered those were the reasons you felt so survivable and if you weren't doing those things you would have been in for a major hurting?

1. Who doesn't have bonus AC over basic class on level 12+, not even mentioning 15+? Magic Items is part of DnD. I never had campaign without them. Even more deadly campaigns like Curse of Strahd where you can easly die everywhere have tons of magic items, many very powerful. For when I was level 12 I had only 2 AC over basic AC and didn't have problems. Before I only had Half-Plate armor till level 6 when I got Cloak of Protection. Again - no problems. Disadvantage is very strong condition on all enemies. Bosses with Blindsight were different bread, but then I could just use my Agonizing Blast + Repelling Blast combo, or stick in SOM outside of their blindsight range if that was possible since EB has 120 feet range.

2. Hit and run tactis are pro for Hexblade. Why should I tank hits and risk of going down if I am the bigget DPS in team? Downed DPS doesn't do damage. My job is damage. My Paladin with Cleric and Barb where enough meaty in front line (Shield + Sword Paladin with tons of AC, Raging Barb and Cleric with classic Spirit Guardians->Dodge Action). They had their job, I had mine. I was mobile DPS platfrom, not a tank. If I wanted to stand in front and take hits, I would roll Paladin or Barbarian, not Hexblade. Besides not using your advantages (not provoking OAs, can't be targeted by spells, having reach, being mobile) is just plain stupid. You play to your strongest points.

And yes, those were the reasons because I took Hexblade strongest points and used them to full advantage. Hence why - I was playing Hexblad 100% effectively. You take A, play it like A, not like B.

[cutlery]

I wonder how exactly most NPCs caster recognize SoM if it's WARLOCK exclusive spell that no other caster has access to?

The same way a non-fiend warlock knows to counterspell a fireball. Players use meta knowledge about what they fight all the time. Why shouldn’t NPCs, particularly those proficient in Arcana, know that sort of stuff?

And magic items aren’t guaranteed in DnD.

[Benny89]

The same way a non-fiend warlock knows to counterspell a fireball. Players use meta knowledge about what they fight all the time. Why shouldn’t NPCs, particularly those proficient in Arcana, know that sort of stuff?

And magic items aren’t guaranteed in DnD.

You don't know that you counterspell fireball... Read counterspell descritpion again: "1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell"

You have no idea what spell you are counterspelling, you are just counterspelling spell that is being casted. You could counterspell cantrip even even if you though you are interrupting some super crazy strong spell. Actually thanks to that there is a lot of mind games in caster vs caster duel (which our Abjuration Wizard had) - does he cast low level spell to bait my counterspell? Will he counterspell my counterspell?

Counterspell is reaction, you react to spell being caster. You have no idea what spell that is. That is a risk. And you have no idea what what slot it was casted.

Don't know about your players and DM but we do not meta that way. DM is saying "he is casting spell" and giving us short pause if we want to counterspell or not. Same with enemy caster. Enemy caster has only one reaction so he has to use it wisely. Will he save it for that guy in robes with staff (looking most like Caster), on that guy with holy Symbol on his chest (cleric?), that guys with shadowy glaive (is it even a caster) or that strage girl with furs and leafs in her hair (maybe druid?). Every one of them can cast something and my DM think like enemy caster would think.

If you DM meta vs your party that I can only feel sorry.



And magic items aren’t guaranteed in DnD.

Of course they are not but tell me - how many times you hear about DnD campaign without magic items at all? Majority of people play with them, it's part of DnD for decades. Of course you can play without them. Hell you can play Star Wars without Force, Vampire without being vampires, Warhammer without Chaos. You can - but lets not pretend it's how majority of games are played.

There is a reason why so many enemies in DnD have resistance to non-magical damage.

Ever seen any official campaign released without magic items? No. Because devs know it's major part of DnD.

[Keravath]

Dual Wielding with Hexblade.

Shadow Blade with Dex Lock.

So Dual Wielding path:

It's actually quite potent with Hexblade, but again - won't be as good as PAM + GWM. You take Hexblade, you take Pact of The Blade, Thristing Blade and 1 level in Fighter for Two Weapon Fighting Style.

Since as Hexblade you can use two weapons with your CHA: One from Hex Warrior and one from Pact of the Blade.

Both attacks still benefit from Life Drinker on level 12 (13 here) and from Curse.

Add to that Elven Accuracy and Shadow of Moil and you have nice set up for good DPR.

Bonus Action: Curse, Action: Shadow of Moil

You attack 3 times with 2x Scimitars. You deal 1d6 + 6 + 5 + 5 damage each hit and you have double advantage (3xd20) and 19-20 crit range. If you can get advantage from other team member - cast Hex instead to attack with 2d6 + 6 + 5 + 5.

Shadow Blade with Dex:

So here we use Shadow Blade as our source of damage (2d8 up to 4d8 form 5th level slot so max Warlock slot). It's Finesse weapon so we need DEX.

So we start as Half-Elf with 16 DEX, 15 CON and 17 CHA and go Elven Accuracy +1 CHA, +2 DEX, RES (CON) if 15 CON or War Caster, +2 CHA, +2 DEX.

Nothing really outstanding here. You still get Life Drinker bonus to hits, you can go Hexblade for 19-20 crit range because Shadow Blade can crit for nice 8d8 per hit with that and Shadow Blade gives you advantage in dim light or in darkness (where you see thanks to Devil's Sight).

It sadly sucks in bright areas and since SB is conc you can't cast SoM or Darkness without gimping your damage.

So I recommend to only go for SB if you see it can gives you advantage. If not - cast Darkness or SOM and spamm Agonizing Blast.

That's it I guess.

One quick comment ... Shadow Blade and dual wielding are both a bit worse than described. The blade pact invocations all only apply to the pact weapon.

"THIRSTING BLADE
Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

"LIFEDRINKER
Prerequisite: 12th level, Pact of the Blade feature
When you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)."

"ELDRITCH SMITE
Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller."

Since Shadow Blade is never your pact weapon it doesn't work with either thirsting blade or lifedrinker. Hex warrior weapons also do not work with lifedrinker. Off hand attacks don't add the stat to damage unless the character has the two weapon fighting style. The main advantage of two weapon fighting would be an extra trigger for damage from hex if you have it up.

Shadow blade damage scales up to a maximum of 4d8 using a 5th level slot at level 9 but since it is only one attack it will add the stat to damage once and will only trigger rider damage like hex once. Assuming 20 charisma the average damage is 23 for shadow blade at level 9 vs 21 for AB and 24 for two swings with a great sword. However, before level 9, both AB and the great sword are significantly ahead of 3d8 shadow blade since it only has one attack.

At level 11, AB has a bump with a third bolt and at level 12 the pact weapon has a boost with lifedrinker and shadow blade doesn't get any better. The only think that would keep shadow blade in the mix for a bit longer is if it can be combined with booming blade for a little extra damage. Booming blade damage scales by tier so that would help keep shadow blade as a useful option. However, using shadow blade means not using darkness, shadow of moil or hex.

[Benny89]

One quick comment ... Shadow Blade and dual wielding are both a bit worse than described. The blade pact invocations all only apply to the pact weapon.

"THIRSTING BLADE
Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature You can attack with your pact weapon twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

"LIFEDRINKER
Prerequisite: 12th level, Pact of the Blade feature
When you hit a creature with your pact weapon, the creature takes extra necrotic damage equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)."

"ELDRITCH SMITE
Prerequisite: 5th level, Pact of the Blade feature Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller."

Since Shadow Blade is never your pact weapon it doesn't work with either thirsting blade or lifedrinker. Hex warrior weapons also do not work with lifedrinker. Off hand attacks don't add the stat to damage unless the character has the two weapon fighting style. The main advantage of two weapon fighting would be an extra trigger for damage from hex if you have it up.

Shadow blade damage scales up to a maximum of 4d8 using a 5th level slot at level 9 but since it is only one attack it will add the stat to damage once and will only trigger rider damage like hex once. Assuming 20 charisma the average damage is 23 for shadow blade at level 9 vs 21 for AB and 24 for two swings with a great sword. However, before level 9, both AB and the great sword are significantly ahead of 3d8 shadow blade since it only has one attack.

At level 11, AB has a bump with a third bolt and at level 12 the pact weapon has a boost with lifedrinker and shadow blade doesn't get any better. The only think that would keep shadow blade in the mix for a bit longer is if it can be combined with booming blade for a little extra damage. Booming blade damage scales by tier so that would help keep shadow blade as a useful option. However, using shadow blade means not using darkness, shadow of moil or hex.

Good points. Never played those build, I was just theorycrafting something that does not take GWM or PAM, or both. So I missed those details in my theorycrafting. I only ever played GWM + PAM locks so I never had to even think about those as my weapon was always my Pact Weapon.

Good catch. Guess that only proves what I was saying that It's not really viable to build Blade lock without at least GWM, or GWM + PAM. And Weapon + shield is imo not really worth using.

Thanks for correction.

[ff7hero]

Moil can’t be upcast, either, so it is easy to upcast counter or dispel to stop it.


SoM doesn't have a "When cast with a higher level slot" section, but casting it with a higher level slot does make it that level for the purposes of Dispel/Counterspell.

As to the topic of the thread, I'd go for GoO Tomelock using Cha Sha-lay-lay (ya know, the druid spell I can't spell)+Dissonant Whispers+Warcaster+Booming Blade.

Bonus action to imitate Hexblade, run into melee, say a scary thing, Booming Blade reaction for guaranteed rider damage. Works especially well in this theoretical all gish party since you're basically the Oprah of OAs.

[cutlery]

As to the topic of the thread, I'd go for GoO Tomelock using Cha Sha-lay-lay (ya know, the druid spell I can't spell)+Dissonant Whispers+Warcaster+Booming Blade.

Bonus action to imitate Hexblade, run into melee, say a scary thing, Booming Blade reaction for guaranteed rider damage. Works especially well in this theoretical all gish party since you're basically the Oprah of OAs.

So, I get the spirit of this, but it just isn’t smashy-cutty enough.

(Also my blastlock is a tomelock with shielalala, and that works great, but ranged ain’t for me, at least not again, and shielah with bb/gfb isn’t the same as dedicated melee)

[ff7hero]

So, I get the spirit of this, but it just isn’t smashy-cutty enough.

(Also my blastlock is a tomelock with shielalala, and that works great, but ranged ain’t for me, at least not again, and shielah with bb/gfb isn’t the same as dedicated melee)

Sure, that's fair. I was mostly posting to point out the upcasting/Dispel interaction and wanted to add a different build to the discussion.

I don't usually enjoy smashy/cutty builds, so I don't have much to add in that regard.

[Hael]

Hexblade really wants +10/-5 and ideally elven accuracy. Coupled with SOM it allows them to significantly outdpr dedicated damage warriors. I played one well into tier three, and he was consistently the most powerful martial at the table.

The reason is that GWM is not a small dpr increase like it is for most classes, it can be a significant boost, even into the high ACs. The interaction with curse and EA breaks most of those heuristic formulas people were quoting.

However, if you do that build you can’t play them like a standard melee. They play more like rogues and need to be cared for like other offtanks like clerics.

If you don’t take that build and want to go sword and board, you kinda want to multi class into fighter or paladin a bit.

[Blood of Gaea]

Hexblade really wants +10/-5 and ideally elven accuracy. Coupled with SOM it allows them to significantly outdpr dedicated damage warriors. I played one well into tier three, and he was consistently the most powerful martial at the table.

The reason is that GWM is not a small dpr increase like it is for most classes, it can be a significant boost, even into the high ACs. The interaction with curse and EA breaks most of those heuristic formulas people were quoting.

However, if you do that build you can’t play them like a standard melee. They play more like rogues and need to be cared for like other offtanks like clerics.

If you don’t take that build and want to go sword and board, you kinda want to multi class into fighter or paladin a bit.
I usually allocate one slot for Armor of Agathys, and the other for Darkness or Shadow of Moil. Between the two you're actually rather competitive in HP durability, and Darknes/SoM can keep some casters from targeting you, so you're pretty resilient.

Of course, you're not all that impressive at saves that can hit you, but that's true of most PCs, to be honest.

That said, I will absolutely agree that something like Paladin 6/X Hexblade is better if you're not running Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. The damage just isn't there, which makes a full on investment into a martial Hexblade much less powerful. You'll be outright worse than Agonizing Blast.

[Kemev]

So, I get the spirit of this, but it just isn’t smashy-cutty enough.

I feel like there's some moving goalposts here... people are throwing out potentially viable melee warlock builds, and getting shot down because they're not specifically heavy-armor, two-handed weapon builds. If that's how you've defined "melee," there's no straight warlock that's ever going to qualify. Instead of expecting a warlock to replace a fighter or paladin, a melee warlock with no multiclassing is going to operate more like a melee rogue, using SCAG cantrips + smites instead of sneak attack.

If I were building a melee warlock, I'd start with High Elf, using the new Tasha's rules to switch stats to Cha and switch longsword for a whip. Pick Archfey as patron, take Elven Accuracy and Fey Teleportation for feats, then go crit fishing with Booming Blade + Faerie Fire (and later, Greater Invisibility).

[Hael]

Crit fishing with a mono class warlock is problematic until at least tier3, bc of the low spell slots. In practice you save your slots for your bread and butter, depending on your build.

You kinda need a spell storing ring for all that to be viable (ditto for shield, hellish rebuke and AoA) in most tables, as there are simply too many encounters.

Therefore Crit fishing builds and AoA builds are usually multiclass with paladin/bard/wiz/sorcerer.

In practice, you are almost always better served holding on to your slots, and using SoM for that Gish martial viability (again you really want GWM or SS to make the build worth).

[Kemev]

Crit fishing with a mono class warlock is problematic until at least tier3, bc of the low spell slots. In practice you save your slots for your bread and butter, depending on your build.

Kinda. I agree that Eldritch Smite isn't very good until higher levels, but crits are still good with Booming Blade. And Faerie Fire's got a big enough AoE that you've got a good chance to tag 2-3 creatures with it, with the added bonus of giving advantage to the rest of your party.

I'm not sure what AoA or the other spells you mentioned have to do with anything.

[Hael]

Kinda. I agree that Eldritch Smite isn't very good until higher levels, but crits are still good with Booming Blade. And Faerie Fire's got a big enough AoE that you've got a good chance to tag 2-3 creatures with it, with the added bonus of giving advantage to the rest of your party.

I'm not sure what AoA or the other spells you mentioned have to do with anything.

Just that someone else mentioned using it, and in my experience its the same problem as eldritch smite. while it’s a great spell, you don’t usually get to cast it, unless you’ve saved up and know it’s the last combat of the day, or u have magic items.

In practise you get one spell to use per encounter, so it’s usually your big encounter solving solutions like synaptic static, cone of cold or SoM/darkness. Early levels, spells like faerie fire would definitely qualify.

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I feel like there's some moving goalposts here... people are throwing out potentially viable melee warlock builds, and getting shot down because they're not specifically heavy-armor, two-handed weapon builds.



The first post had this:


Assume the warlock player wants to use a greatsword/greataxe/maul - zero interest in pole arm master. What's a Glaive? Rapiers are dumb - etc. GWM is a maybe. Not terribly interested in a dex build.


So, I'd say that goalpost was set from the outset.

I don't want to make the highest dpr melee warlock; I want to know if monocloass warlock works for that sort of theme (that is, armored, two handed weapons), without the crutch of PAM.

As for keeping up in the damage department with a fighter; compared to an EK using the same sort of weapon it does; without assuming advantage - and advantage eventually becomes a near certainty with foresight (it isn't in Tiers 1-2). Hex and or Curse and Lifedrinker just manage to keep pace with three attacks; especially in a low magic game with IPW; at least after the action surge round, and that's close enough.

[Frogreaver]

Kinda. I agree that Eldritch Smite isn't very good until higher levels, but crits are still good with Booming Blade. And Faerie Fire's got a big enough AoE that you've got a good chance to tag 2-3 creatures with it, with the added bonus of giving advantage to the rest of your party.

I'm not sure what AoA or the other spells you mentioned have to do with anything.

I think the only time Eldritch Smite is viewed as not very effective is when 1 of the following happens:
1. You don't account for your high chance of losing concentration
2. You don't account for action economy - most buffs or debuffs require an action which is often a turn of not attacking.
3. You don't account that knocking the enemy prone grants advantage to your allies (and potentially you on your second attack)


Just that someone else mentioned using it, and in my experience its the same problem as eldritch smite. while it’s a great spell, you don’t usually get to cast it, unless you’ve saved up and know it’s the last combat of the day, or u have magic items.

In practise you get one spell to use per encounter, so it’s usually your big encounter solving solutions like synaptic static, cone of cold or SoM/darkness. Early levels, spells like faerie fire would definitely qualify.

The problem with almost all those spells is:
1. They require an action - Having a round where you cast SOM and deal no damage vs having a round where you make 2 attacks and eldritch smite - which also grants melee allies advantage that round is not an easy deficit to catch up from.
2. They require concentration - You likely won't take anything to help con saves till level 12 or 16 - meaning you will often lose concentration on these spells mid encounters.

[Amechra]

I think the only time Eldritch Smite is viewed as not very effective is when 1 of the following happens:
1. You don't account for your high chance of losing concentration
2. You don't account for action economy - most buffs or debuffs require an action which is often a turn of not attacking.
3. You don't account that knocking the enemy prone grants advantage to your allies (and potentially you on your second attack)

The trouble with Eldritch Smite at early levels is that you only have two spell slots per rest until 11th level, so spending them on single-shot damage is not the best. Especially since you'll want to be casting Armor of Agathys before big fights - having up to 30 THP that hurts people when they hit you is really good if you're going to be in melee.

[cutlery]

I think the only time Eldritch Smite is viewed as not very effective is when 1 of the following happens:
1. You don't account for your high chance of losing concentration
2. You don't account for action economy - most buffs or debuffs require an action which is often a turn of not attacking.




Yep; Smite is guaranteed damage, which might be really handy especially if you need to "catch up" after spending round one casting a spell like blink/moil/darkness.

Prone combined with a party grappler is really nice, too.



The trouble with Eldritch Smite at early levels is that you only have two spell slots per rest until 11th level, so spending them on single-shot damage is not the best. Especially since you'll want to be casting Armor of Agathys before big fights - having up to 30 THP that hurts people when they hit you is really good if you're going to be in melee.

Every table is different, but I just don't expect to use AoA much because of the above; it costs an action. Now, if I know there are baddies through the door, sure. The warlock or the others can also spend a round of prep then ready actions to blast through it. But often enough encounters take the form "ohcrapmonsters" and initiative gets rolled - at that point, casting AoA or Moil (or both) means the warlock 1-2 rounds behind in contributions; while the fighter is action surging and the bladesinger is bonus action bladesonging and so on. If Moil or AoA were bonus actions, they'd be much much nicer. I sort of don't get why AoA isn't a bonus action, really.

In a long, drawn out, 25 round fight, a few rounds spent self buffing is fine, that's a marathon and you need to take care of yourself. In a 3-4 round splatterhouse fight? You're like Jack Burton trying to get his knife out of his boot.

[Frogreaver]

The trouble with Eldritch Smite at early levels is that you only have two spell slots per rest until 11th level, so spending them on single-shot damage is not the best.

You are saying it isn't the best, but you aren't telling me what the better alternative is.

Is the best a concentration spell that's going to likely get taken off via failed concentration because you are in melee? SOM/Darkness/Faerie Fire all fall in that category.

Is the best a non concentration aoe damage spell? Cone of Cold works well there and if you can get a clear shot to a decent sized group of enemies its better in that situation. So yes, use it there instead. However, if you your allies are already engaged then something like attacks and eldritch smite does significantly more single target damage.


Especially since you'll want to be casting Armor of Agathys before big fights - having up to 30 THP that hurts people when they hit you is really good if you're going to be in melee.

It's 25 not 30 but whose counting.

I hate prebuffing armor of agathys - unless in a fight I know is likely super deadly. It only lasts an hour and there's always the chance you won't be attacked/hit and essentially waste the slot. I think it makes for a good in combat action if you are being focused on and can expect the enemy to stay attacking you.

[Unoriginal]

Here's another way to look at it:

Among all the ways to make a greatsword user, what interest you in the Warlock?

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Here's another way to look at it:

Among all the ways to make a greatsword user, what interest you in the Warlock?

That's a good question; and I think it's rapid access to stuff like Blink, Far Step, Thunder Step, and eventual access to Scatter; along with occasional use of Hunger, Grasp, and Arms of Hadar.

The former won't happen to an EK/Wizard multiclass until later (unless it's of the fighter 1/wizard 5/fighter x variety, but in that case the greatsword is mostly for show for a long time), the latter warlock exclusive; with honorable mention to Valor Bards.

EK/Wizard aside, I don't think any other melee/caster blend does that great a job with a greatsword/greataxe/maul other than a paladin (and their spell selection is unsatisfactory). I've played them before and don't care to again - I prefer arcane to divine, so a paladin would take a total re-fluff to work and lay on hands just doesn't fit at all; so that becomes a homebrew. Artificers aren't even on the table, either - they don't fit well in the setting and I don't really like them; nor is their spell selection generally suitable (blink yes, misty step/far step/dimension door/thunder step/scatter no). I'm sick of paladin/sorcerers.

[Unoriginal]

That's a good question; and I think it's rapid access to stuff like Blink, Far Step, Thunder Step, and eventual access to Scatter; along with occasional use of Hunger, Grasp, and Arms of Hadar.

The former won't happen to an EK/Wizard multiclass until later (unless it's of the fighter 1/wizard 5/fighter x variety, but in that case the greatsword is mostly for show for a long time), the latter warlock exclusive; with honorable mention to Valor Bards.

EK/Wizard aside, I don't think any other melee/caster blend does that great a job with a greatsword/greataxe/maul other than a paladin (and their spell selection is unsatisfactory). I've played them before and don't care to again - I prefer arcane to divine, so a paladin would take a total re-fluff to work and lay on hands just doesn't fit at all; so that becomes a homebrew. Artificers aren't even on the table, either - they don't fit well in the setting and I don't really like them; nor is their spell selection generally suitable (blink yes, misty step/far step/dimension door/thunder step/scatter no). I'm sick of paladin/sorcerers.

Sounds like you have the answer(s) to your initial post, then.

[Frogreaver]

That's a good question; and I think it's rapid access to stuff like Blink, Far Step, Thunder Step, and eventual access to Scatter; along with occasional use of Hunger, Grasp, and Arms of Hadar.

The former won't happen to an EK/Wizard multiclass until later (unless it's of the fighter 1/wizard 5/fighter x variety, but in that case the greatsword is mostly for show for a long time), the latter warlock exclusive; with honorable mention to Valor Bards.

EK/Wizard aside, I don't think any other melee/caster blend does that great a job with a greatsword/greataxe/maul other than a paladin (and their spell selection is unsatisfactory). I've played them before and don't care to again - I prefer arcane to divine, so a paladin would take a total re-fluff to work and lay on hands just doesn't fit at all; so that becomes a homebrew. Artificers aren't even on the table, either - they don't fit well in the setting and I don't really like them; nor is their spell selection generally suitable (blink yes, misty step/far step/dimension door/thunder step/scatter no). I'm sick of paladin/sorcerers.

I suppose one could go variant human with res con and take warcaster at level 4. Then you could be in melee and use whatever concentration spells you desired. After that focus on boosting charisma. I don't know that it's better damage than EB in that instance, but all it takes to be better than EB is to find a decent magic weapon - which is something that never gets factored into these discussions and ranges quite considerably from campaign to campaign.

[cutlery]

Sounds like you have the answer(s) to your initial post, then.

Well, I have an aesthetic and a handful of spells; I don't know if monoclass hexblade warlock or even any warlock is the best way to get there. Warlocks have some negatives (short rest recovery being one of them; this group skews towards short adventuring days - as do many).

When an intellect warlock is on the table, the EK or EK/Wizard forms a natural comparison, too (particularly for an armored teleporting arcane knight type).



I suppose one could go variant human with res con and take warcaster at level 4. Then you could be in melee and use whatever concentration spells you desired. After that focus on boosting charisma. I don't know that it's better damage than EB in that instance, but all it takes to be better than EB is to find a decent magic weapon - which is something that never gets factored into these discussions and ranges quite considerably from campaign to campaign.

Yeah, I assume there will be some items but I have no idea what they might be and don't want to plan on anything specific. Also, Fey Touched for variant human is pretty much locked in; it might even get taken at 4 with another race (like half orc), as it ties the mechanics to the backstory (and is pretty a darn useful half feat for a spells-known class). I know that elves and half-elves make better crit fishers and make great dex and cha builds - variant Eladrin for example, but a person can only play so many elves.

I'm perfectly capable of coming up with a maximum munchkin build, but I'd much rather pick an aesthetic and backstory and build around that, and use those munchkin skills for good, or something.

[Frogreaver]

Well, I have an aesthetic and a handful of spells; I don't know if monoclass hexblade warlock or even any warlock is the best way to get there. Warlocks have some negatives (short rest recovery being one of them; this group skews towards short adventuring days - as do many).

When an intellect warlock is on the table, the EK or EK/Wizard forms a natural comparison, too (particularly for an armored teleporting arcane knight type).




Yeah, I assume there will be some items but I have no idea what they might be and don't want to plan on anything specific. Also, Fey Touched for variant human is pretty much locked in; it might even get taken at 4 with another race (like half orc), as it ties the mechanics to the backstory (and is pretty a darn useful half feat for a spells-known class). I know that elves and half-elves make better crit fishers and make great dex and cha builds - variant Eladrin for example, but a person can only play so many elves.

I'm perfectly capable of coming up with a maximum munchkin build, but I'd much rather pick an aesthetic and backstory and build around that, and use those munchkin skills for good, or something.

Okay, so you want a character that teleports around all over the battlefield while using a greatsword.

How would you feel about hexblade 1 / college of swords bard X?

[CMCC]

Treantmonk has a great hex/swords bard build.

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Okay, so you want a character that teleports around all over the battlefield while using a greatsword.

How would you feel about hexblade 1 / college of swords bard X?

Swords bards are cool, but they don't fit the concept that well.

It doesn't seem like bards get many of the relevant spells; though I suppose you could use secrets later for two of them. It would need to be hexblade 3 to use greatweapons with cha; instead of just longswords/battleaxes, or be str based (in which case, why not fighter?). Hexblade 3 would grant 2 misty steps per SR, at least. At that point, I'd sooner consider Hexblade 5 for thirsting blade and Whispers Bard for bardic smites.

It seems like Dimension Door is the only short range teleport Bards have access to without using secrets, and waiting for 11 or 14th level for that to kick in doesn't sound fun; though at that point you could probably skip right to Far Step; unless the bulk of the concept comes via the Fey Touched feat.

A warlock 3 or fighter 1/Wizard 3 has more teleportation on tap than a hex1/swords8 (I'd even go higher level bard than that, as Dimension Door is more specialized use than the other options, and not enough on its own).

[Joe the Rat]

Im a fan of the celestial tomelock for pure warlock Melee builds. Just has the right feel and has more flexibility and utility.
I've gone Fiend Tome Melee - most of the same benefits, trading the healing hands word for kill-steal boosters.

I like using AoA, which means I like a *middling AC* option. You will either get hit and hurt your foes, or if the enemies realize people turn into corpsicles when they attack, they will actively avoid striking you. You have to watch concentration though. Hex is a waste of casting unless you are switching to ranged mode, so look for other cast options if you want to burn all your slots in one go. (With Celestial, flaming sphere is a much better use than hex, provided your enemies are on the ground).

[cutlery]

I've gone Fiend Tome Melee - most of the same benefits, trading the healing hands word for kill-steal boosters.

I like using AoA, which means I like a *middling AC* option. You will either get hit and hurt your foes, or if the enemies realize people turn into corpsicles when they attack, they will actively avoid striking you. You have to watch concentration though. Hex is a waste of casting unless you are switching to ranged mode, so look for other cast options if you want to burn all your slots in one go. (With Celestial, flaming sphere is a much better use than hex, provided your enemies are on the ground).


I like fiend patron; but I don't like how it would require a fighter dip (probably at level creation) require STR, or that blink isn't accessible. I have already played a fiend patron blastlock and would rather mix it up. A half orc fiend patron bladelock does sound fun, though.

A real, honest, arcane patron would be great, but unless one magically appears in Tashas, the Genie is probably the closest (but still not really right in terms of spells).

[Unoriginal]

I like fiend patron; but I don't like how it would require a fighter dip (probably at level creation) require STR, or that blink isn't accessible. I have already played a fiend patron blastlock and would rather mix it up.

Maybe a Pact of the Tome Hexblade would be what you want.

EDIT: Actually a Tome Pact Fiendlock wouldn't need STR (aside from armor) due to Shillelagh being available.

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Maybe a Pact of the Tome Hexblade would be what you want.

EDIT: Actually a Tome Pact Fiendlock wouldn't need STR (aside from armor) due to Shillelagh being available.

Tome is cool and does its thing, but Shillelagh and a quarter staff (and likely, light armor) is not a greatsword and plate and/or half plate.

Also, one attack ain't enough, unless Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip is a backup for a fulltime blastlock - which is basically exactly how my fiend blast lock played.

[Unoriginal]

Tome is cool and does its thing, but Shillelagh and a quarter staff (and likely, light armor) is not a greatsword and plate and/or half plate.

Also, one attack ain't enough, unless Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip is a backup for a fulltime blastlock - which is basically exactly how my fiend blast lock played.

Well at least the Tasha's will likely have the Invocation that lets you use any armor.

[Reynaert]

I've gone Fiend Tome Melee - most of the same benefits, trading the healing hands word for kill-steal boosters.

I like using AoA, which means I like a *middling AC* option. You will either get hit and hurt your foes, or if the enemies realize people turn into corpsicles when they attack, they will actively avoid striking you. You have to watch concentration though. Hex is a waste of casting unless you are switching to ranged mode, so look for other cast options if you want to burn all your slots in one go. (With Celestial, flaming sphere is a much better use than hex, provided your enemies are on the ground).

Why do you have to watch concentration?

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Well at least the Tasha's will likely have the Invocation that lets you use any armor.

Which is nice, but building a warlock for melee leaves you so strapped for invocations.

Thirsting Blade
Lifedrinker
Improved pact weapon
Eldritch Smite
Eldritch Armor

That's 5; you only ever get 8. I suppose that's fair-ish, given how much more powerful warlock casting can be when compared to EKs, paladins, and rangers and how more durable they can be than Bladesingers. You do, of course, still need a str of 15 to wear plate without penalties even with the Eldritch Armor invocation, unless they add to it in Tashas (which they shouldn't, that would be bonkers).


Assuming heavy armor (or settling for half plate) and a greatweapon with teleports is what you want (and that's the concept here), at some point, it becomes a question of if monoclassing to get to mystic arcanums and/or the level 14 patron feature is worth it, compared to multiclassing as fighter to 8 or so for plate, extra attack, and either maneuvers or war magic. It's good that it's not necessarily such a clear choice, I guess.

I don't think any other class combinations really work for this, other then a sorcadin (which is too much munchkinery for me, and divine stuff isn't thematic), fighter/sorcerer, or fighter/wizard. Fighter/bard or paladin/bard, particularly lore could work, but that's a rather roundabout way to get there and none of the fluff works. Some combination of fighter and wizard would be fine, as you don't need to be a warlock to have made a deal with the metaphorical devil, and the ways they learn their martial and spellcasting abilities are thematically fine.

Setting aside the cha to hit/damage, hexblade is still a pretty good choice for this sort of conceptual multiclass as it has access to many of thematic teleportation spells and offers a once per SR hex substitute that doesn't take a concentration slot.

The question then becomes this: Is a monoclass hexblade markedly worse than these other options for this concept?

[Warpiglet-7]

Wow. This could not be more timely.

I have a 4th level hexblade. Pact of blade. It’s fine.

I have a cleric 1, celestial patron warlock 7. He has pole arm master and Eldritch smite. Does not have gwm. Every few encounters he lands a crit. It wrecks house. He is Gandalf and a paladin mixed.

I remotely had a single class variant human fiend patron blade pact. He was at 4th when I left off. He was good as well. I took moderately armored.

I am now looking to do another variant human fiend patron blade pact WITHOUT multiclassing. The way forward is looking three variables. You can mitigate mad with invocations IMHO. For example if you can only afford a 12 con, you can layer invest in tomb of ice and at lower levels fiendish vigor is outstanding!

The other variable is feats. Without armor you are forced into armor of shadows. If you use the invocAtion for two attacks and smiting it gets tight fast. And since you are a warlock, you need at least one invocation for creepy utility like illusion, disguises or devils sight.

That said if you want to forgo gwm or Pam, Eldritch smite is really nice. Anything that increases attacks is cool here if it keyed off your pact blade (e.g. sentry).

But smiting for me has wrecked house. The variable to manage the mad are invocations and feats and even spells to shore up weak spots.

Race can help here. Nothing wrong with a mountain dwarf if it fits the character.

The fact is if you can throw a fireball, deceive everyone and smite, you should not ALSO be as good as a fighter. However power projection matters.

Misty stepping up to the evil wizard and smiting is worth more that the fighter being restrained and slowed by moons in some scenarios....

[RSP]

I suppose that's fair-ish, given how much more powerful warlock casting can be when compared to EKs, paladins, and rangers and how more durable they can be than Bladesingers.

Why do you think Hexblade PoBs are more durable than Bladesingers? BS’s AC should be better when in melee, they have Shield (and more importantly, 1st level slots to cast it), Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, and Song Of Defense (essential for staying in melee after level 10-ish).

Hexblades have Med Armor, a shield (if used, and sounds like you don’t prefer that style), +1 HP per level, and Armor of Hexes.

So a 17 AC (Half Plate, no shield), vs about 19 when Bladesinging. It’s even at 19 if using a shield. ASIs will raise the BS’s AC, though, while the Hexblade is maxed out. Either can get magic items to help, campaign dependent. But BS still takes 1/2 from elemental damage, has Shield for +5 AC, and Song of Defense beats the snot out of Armor of Hexes. Not to mention other spells that add to survivability such as Tensors or Haste.

Just curious what you’re factoring in here.

[cutlery]

Why do you think Hexblade PoBs are more durable than Bladesingers? BS’s AC should be better when in melee, they have Shield (and more importantly, 1st level slots to cast it), Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, and Song Of Defense (essential for staying in melee after level 10-ish).

Hexblades have Med Armor, a shield (if used, and sounds like you don’t prefer that style), +1 HP per level, and Armor of Hexes.

So a 17 AC (Half Plate, no shield), vs about 19 when Bladesinging. It’s even at 19 if using a shield. ASIs will raise the BS’s AC, though, while the Hexblade is maxed out. Either can get magic items to help, campaign dependent. But BS still takes 1/2 from elemental damage, has Shield for +5 AC, and Song of Defense beats the snot out of Armor of Hexes. Not to mention other spells that add to survivability such as Tensors or Haste.

Just curious what you’re factoring in here.

Maybe I just got unlucky with dice; but my bladesinger can get into the danger zone by reflex save or con save aoe pretty easily (yes, absorb elements, but damn, sometimes that's still only half damage - and you very much can run out of first level spells; I had a run recently where I used all of my AR to get back first level slots just for shield/absorb). As for melee, sooner or later hits get through, and on a long enough time line of hits, one is a critical. I've not made it to 10 yet, so maybe that changes then. Well, the frequency of criticals won't, but the ability to absorb them will.

I suppose those are just as likely to be problems for a hexblade, who won't even have absorb elements.

And, you may not always have bladesong charges - in which case, yikes. Yeah, you've got a bow (or should), but if melee breaks through to the back lines it's not a good day. Enough so that I consider dipping rogue, often.

But, when you do have bladesong, the AC is great - no argument there. I guess I've had a few sessions running on fumes, and a bladesinger truly on empty is really just a wizard who can shoot twice with a bow.

I suspect I'll have better luck precasting something like AoA at the table the hexblade will be at (on the other hand, it's probably going to be a more typically one encounter per day table, but I can make that work because I like the people).

Maybe it is in my head, but lightly armored characters tend to get rushed more often than characters that (visually, at least) appear more durable. When you've got the resources as a bladesinger this is hilarious. When you don't? Ruh roh.


The more I think this through the more fighter levels sound good (plate, defensive style, eventually parry or riposte).

[Joe the Rat]

Why do you have to watch concentration?

Since getting hit is part of the strategy, you've got a lot of Con saves in your future.

[Reynaert]

Since getting hit is part of the strategy, you've got a lot of Con saves in your future.

Oh I see. I'm planning on playing a similar strategy somewhere in the future but my initial mitigation idea was to avoid concentration spells in the first place. Still mulling it over though.

[RSP]

I suppose those are just as likely to be problems for a hexblade, who won't even have absorb elements.

AE and Shield help immensely in mitigating damage taken, neither of which is really available to a Hexblade, at least 5th level on. Or rather, if you use a 3rd+ slot on Shield, I’d probably say you’re doing something wrong.

I’d watch out for AoA as well: in theory it’s nice, but precasting it uses a limited slot, and you don’t really know what’s coming up in the combat. Most times I’ve pre-cast it, it’s been ranged/spells that have eaten the tHP.

That’s one less Smite or AoE (or SoM/Darkness).

And don’t get me started on Armor of Hexes. At 13, I’ve used it 4 times and never had it actually turn a hit into a miss. I know that’s just unlucky, but it’s not often I have it up, due to it’s limited use, and I use Shield out of a Ring if Spell Storing when I can reliably affect a hit.

[cutlery]

AE and Shield help immensely in mitigating damage taken, neither of which is really available to a Hexblade, at least 5th level on. Or rather, if you use a 3rd+ slot on Shield, I’d probably say you’re doing something wrong.

I’d watch out for AoA as well: in theory it’s nice, but precasting it uses a limited slot, and you don’t really know what’s coming up in the combat. Most times I’ve pre-cast it, it’s been ranged/spells that have eaten the tHP.

That’s one less Smite or AoE (or SoM/Darkness).

And don’t get me started on Armor of Hexes. At 13, I’ve used it 4 times and never had it actually turn a hit into a miss. I know that’s just unlucky, but it’s not often I have it up, due to it’s limited use, and I use Shield out of a Ring if Spell Storing when I can reliably affect a hit.

Re: AoA: yep; and depending on the table you won't have time to precast before most fights anyway. If I am going to spend a whole action casting a defensive buff, it's far more likely to be blink or mirror image or shadow of moil. In those rare cases where I can precast AoA - maybe. Never been that big a fan, to be honest.

As for Shield and AE - even an EK will be strapped for slots in tier 2; 4 1st and 2 2nd by 7th, but that's the whole day and no arcane recovery (which seems a sad omission, given how few slots 1/3 casters get). I think it's something that works great for the bladesinger, but not the other classes that get access to it.

Compare with the 5 sup die a battlemaster has at that level (with short rest refresh), or, more awesomely, the monster hunter UA has (and they can use those for saving throws!). Even at level 5 or 6, the EK is stuck at 3 1st level slots; if you happen to have a longish adventuring day (reasonable at 5th), you are likely to run out.

Sure, at 13th, things are pretty cool with c432 slots; but a warlock has 3 per SR (though, also 2 LR arcanums), so an AE when they fail a save and are about to take 1/3 or 1/2 their health, it's worth the slot.

I want to like the EK, I really do, but while they may be the most flexible fighter, they're still a fighter (which is generally a rather low-options class).

Maybe I can make a monster hunter 8/Hexblade12 work; I dunno.

[RSP]

Re: AoA: yep; and depending on the table you won't have time to precast before most fights anyway. If I am going to spend a whole action casting a defensive buff, it's far more likely to be blink or mirror image or shadow of moil. In those rare cases where I can precast AoA - maybe. Never been that big a fan, to be honest.

As for Shield and AE - even an EK will be strapped for slots in tier 2; 4 1st and 2 2nd by 7th, but that's the whole day and no arcane recovery (which seems a sad omission, given how few slots 1/3 casters get). I think it's something that works great for the bladesinger, but not the other classes that get access to it.

Compare with the 5 sup die a battlemaster has at that level (with short rest refresh), or, more awesomely, the monster hunter UA has (and they can use those for saving throws!). Even at level 5 or 6, the EK is stuck at 3 1st level slots; if you happen to have a longish adventuring day (reasonable at 5th), you are likely to run out.

Sure, at 13th, things are pretty cool with c432 slots; but a warlock has 3 per SR (though, also 2 LR arcanums), so an AE when they fail a save and are about to take 1/3 or 1/2 their health, it's worth the slot.

I want to like the EK, I really do, but while they may be the most flexible fighter, they're still a fighter (which is generally a rather low-options class).

Maybe I can make a monster hunter 8/Hexblade12 work; I dunno.

Dunno about EK, but I was referring to a BS being better at surviving than a Bladelock. Hexblade probably does more melee damage, but BS is hands down better at surviving.

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Dunno about EK, but I was referring to a BS being better at surviving than a Bladelock. Hexblade probably does more melee damage, but BS is hands down better at surviving.

I guess the thing is BS is more mad; at lower levels it’s hard to have a stellar con as well as dex+int.

I think once song of defense is working it will feel better, but in Tier 2, at least, I think a BS still feels a lot like a wizard when there is AoE flying.

The group mine is in doesn’t really have any full martials in it, though, and the encounters are a bit gloves-off. Assuming pointbuy and half elves, Ac of ~19 in bladesong (light armor rather than mage armor) and 32 hp at 5 compared to an ac of 17 and 43 hp for the warlock; plus probably fiendish vigor at that level, so another 5-8 temp hp; Absorb Elements aside the lock can soak AoE a bit better - but two more points of ac is a big deal, and the warlock won’t be able to touch the pinnacles the BS can reach later.

It’s hard not to think about the EK at the same time - easy AC of 19 with defensive and plate, access to shield and absorb elements (but fewer slots than the BS), and 49 hp, as well as second wind for an extra ~10.

Fast forward to 10, and the bs has another point of ac in bladesong (20), and 62 hp; the lock is still at 17 (unless they go for MAM), and is up to 83 hp (fiendish vigor probably dropped by now), the EK is still at 19 ac, and 94 hp (second wind now up to ~15 hp). The bladesinger can burn slots to mitigate damage, though, and if you aren’t resource starved that ought to be pretty nice.

The bladesinger can be hard as heck to hit, but damn, when they do get hit, it hurts.

[Gtdead]

The strongest ability of the warlock is advantage generation. However there are some serious problems that need to be addressed.

In a build without GWM, the only other synergistic option is eldritch smite. Warlock has limited slots, which conflict with his advantage generation. So I'd say smite is out.

The other strong option is shadowblade which kind of conflicts with hex warrior and pact of the blade.. it's also concentration which means it needs hexblade to be used efficiently once per short rest.

So essentially, we are all out of ways to capitalize on our advantage generation and elven accuracy to some extend.

The last problem is that advantage generation is vision based and a lot of important targets have truesight/blindsight. This can also be solved with hexblade.

Up to level 12, his output is 1d8+5 x2 =. Beyond 12 it's 1d8+10 x2. Eldritch blast is better and works even better with hexblade's curse.

So my final suggestion is crossbow expert and attacking in melee with eldritch blast.. seriously I can't see how this will work better than a usual EB warlock. Warlock is probably the best GWM user and the only single class that can actually use it with elven accuracy due to hex warrior making it a CHA roll (DM may contest this, dunno).

[Nhorianscum]

So going into this it honestly sounds like you'd rather be playing a not-warlock.

If you do decide to roll up a 2 handed mele lock it's... fine? It's just also the glassiest of glass cannons and is extremely poorly suited for the role you're looking for until mid to late tier 2 where shadows of moi spam is avalible where it can do the job in a very mediocre manner.

[Throne12]

If you want to play a int based bladelock just play a profane soul bloodhunter.

[Chalkarts]

I toyed with a Magical Melee Warlock on paper.
He was Tome.
I like the undead patron from UA.
I Gave him the Medium armor feat so he could use a shield.
His primary attack was Primal Savagery.
I envision him closing the distance while plinking with EB, then once in Melee its all acid claws.
I was thinking Dwarf if not Variant Human.

I don't know why, but for some reason I've always been completely turned off by Hexblade. Something about the lore bugs me so I will never play one.

I like Blade Pact, but I prefer the versatility of Tome. I feel like a decent Melee fighter can be made with tome. Maybe not front line Fighter or Barbarian level but definitely survivable and effective.

[cutlery]

So going into this it honestly sounds like you'd rather be playing a not-warlock.


Well, I'd like an arcane half caster if I could get one (that is not an artificer); warlock, ek, or ek with wizard levels seems to be it as far as the choices go for (1) Armor and (2) Greatsword/Axe.

Perhaps that ought to be a different thread. There are tons of build-a-gish threads but I feel they meander from concept pretty fast; it isn't long before someone is suggesting a tome lock with Shillelagh or a Bard of some sort with a rapier (or the boring-as-beans sorcadin with GWM/PAM). If theme didn't matter I'd play a sorcadin with a rapier.



The strongest ability of the warlock is advantage generation. However there are some serious problems that need to be addressed.



Yeah, if you assume always advantage the hexblade (or any blade warlock, really) pulls well ahead; at least until you're fighting stuff like ancient dragons. At some ACs a fighter's 4th attack still manages to catch up, which is something.

However, the round or two to set up advantage and/or another defensive spell costs dearly; Against an ac 15 targets; for a warlock that's 40.5 DPR at level 12 for a greatsword hexblade with GWM and advantage (44 with hex, but concentration conflicts with advantage source); but that's at least one prep round of zero damage.

An EK can wade in on round one and put down 33 DPR with GWM. 38.3 with hunters mark (via feats; no bonus action or concentration conflict) and of course they can action surge for another 33/38.3. Even if they don't action surge or use hunter's mark, it isn't until round 5 that the warlock catches up in damage output. Round 5!

They are probably better off using that spell slot for a smite.

True, advantage becomes effectively free at 17 and that's awesome, but that's also when an EK gains two uses of action surge per SR.

Elven tri-vangage has a lead of about 5.5 points per round; but this character will almost certainly be a Vhuman. Elven advantage also competes with res:con and war caster for those early feats; and Cha might not reach 20 by 12th if it becomes mandatory.

Without always-on Advantage:

At 12 a Lock can put out 27 dpr, or 30.5 with hex (again, AC 15, no magic weapon, main stat of +5). That compares favorably with the fighter's 33/38.5; and a single smite gives a lead of 27 damage even on a noncrit. Without mark, the fighter needs ten rounds or more to catch up; they can action surge and the warlock can drop another smite. Hexblade's curse help. too. And that's not even accounting for the advantage from a second swing when a smite force-prones the target on the first swing.

As cool as something like shadow of moil is, I think it is often a mistaken use of a slot - unless we also factor in the defensive benefits, which are huge. A bit of a feat tax for that playstyle, too - you'll need res:con and war caster to maximize uptime from that spell slot.


Of course, if we're playing games with advantage, an EK might occasionally use a shadow blade in dim light, and at 12, they don't even need GWM (not that it applies) to blow the doors off the warlock without smites;

Against AC 15: 39.4 dpr at level 12, 53.3 at level 13 (when they can upcast SB - the always-advantage warlock is up to 43.1 here).

Although the usual round of setup cost applies, and those are long rest slots, too (costly), so I don't expect I'd use it for this sort of EK. I'd probably save the level 2 slots for misty steps and the level 3 slots for thunder step rescues.


An EK/Wizard multiclass might have more uses for shadowblade, but I think this multiclass would tend to fall behind either the pure EK or Hexblade, without regular use of war magic in later tiers and a heavy reliance on upcast shadow blades; which can scale up to fantastic levels, outstripping either pure classes if they are willing to use level 5 or 7 slots for shadow blade. The pure EK will catch up with 4 attacks, though (though this also requires shadow blade).

Bright enough light ruins that advantage, of course.

[Keravath]

Regarding warlocks and advantage, it is important to remember that RAW, Shadow of Moil is neither an illusion nor darkness.

It makes the caster heavily obscured much like fog cloud might except that it doesn't affect the vision of the caster. As a result, neither truesight nor devils sight allows a creature to see the caster so a warlock using Shadow of Moil can retain advantage in combat against far more creatures than invisibility or other abilities might allow.

[cutlery]

SoM is a great spell, no doubt - the sort that has me reaching for the UA blind fighting style when there is a spare feat/style.

Of course, SoM also works funny if the warlock's attacker is using shadow blade, effectively negating its own defensive benefits.

[sithlordnergal]

I have found this extremely easy to do by not taking Agonising Blast invocation nor Eldritch Blast cantrip.

That...doesn't really fix the core issue that Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast are able to do damage on par with your Melee Warlock. Like, sure you don't have to take it, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that it exists. That's like saying "Great Weapon Master isn't a strong feat because I never take it". I personally never use Great Weapon Master because I prefer defense over offense, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an amazingly strong feat.

[Nhorianscum]

As a response to the whole SoM thing we're primarily using it for the defensive side of the buff as warlocks have skin of paper and bones of glass in mele.

17 AC with a d8 hit die is painfully frail.

(Keep in mind that every baseline draconic sorcerer has access to an effective AC of 26+ on-demand without using an action, have the same HP pool, and those are still very much skirmisher type characters.)

(Edit: Paladin genuinely seems to be what you want mechanically.)

[sithlordnergal]

Honestly, I wouldn't build one. Warlocks lack the stuff needed to really stand out as a GISH, they're similar to Valor Bards in that regard. Sure, they can do it, but that doesn't mean they're good at it. Even Eldritch Smite doesn't help simply because of how few spell slots you get per encounter, Warlocks already have a problem with spells competing for Slots, and Eldritch Smite just compounds the problem.

That said, if I were to make one I'd go Hexblade, since its the only Warlock Pact that can do melee well. Hexblade gives you Medium Armor and the Shield spell...though this is one of the few cases where Shield is a bad option for a caster since you only have two spell slots to use for the majority of your career. It also makes you less MAD, which is a huge boon. But without Hexblade, you're basically screwed. You're given the same HP and AC as a Rogue, but you're not given any of the Rogue's mobility. Meaning if you get into melee, you're basically stuck there unless you risk an opportunity attack. Sure Fiend gives you access to Temp Hp, but you'll find enemies quickly outdamage the Temp HP you can gain, and it'll last for all of one round.

[cutlery]

As a response to the whole SoM thing we're primarily using it for the defensive side of the buff as warlocks have skin of paper and bones of glass in mele.

17 AC with a d8 hit die is painfully frail.

Point taken about moil as a defensive as well as offensive buff - the disadvantage to attackers, resistance, and necrotic damage to attackers is rather nice.


Sure Fiend gives you access to Temp Hp, but you'll find enemies quickly outdamage the Temp HP you can gain, and it'll last for all of one round.

I really like fiend for a ranged blaster, but that's a very different style, of course. As scary as things get with ac 16, I don't guess ac 17 would be that much better - which points to some sort of heavy armor build+defensive fighting style (EK, EK+wiz, Fighter dip Hexblade, or the dreaded pal/lock). "Greatsword Gish" is I guess the thing. I can't help but think of these other options at the same time, as they can all be built to do basically the same thing. I am somewhat drawn to the short rest spell slots; they don't work out at every table, but when they do it is refreshing to conserve less and cast freely.

But, surviving in melee is the number one thing, and having the mobility to get behind front lines to kill enemy casters is number 2. I think any of these builds can mostly do that, particularly with the addition of the mobile and fey touched feats and mage slayer. This won't be in a group that has a ton of fragile casters of its own (yeah yeah, so I should play one, but I don't feel like it), so things like blink and misty step aren't really a problem as far as letting stuff get to our back line.

The choice would probably be easier if the Eldritch Knight had more than three spell slots per Long Rest at level six, or if war magic scaled in basically any way other than it currently does. It feels like levels 1-7 or so will feel pretty boring for the EK; especially on any longish adventuring days. Compare with the sorts of things a hexblade can do at level 9 or a pal6/sor3 can do.

On the other hand, Eldritch Knights are still fighters, and get back action surge and second wind on short rests.

[Mr Adventurer]

That...doesn't really fix the core issue that Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast are able to do damage on par with your Melee Warlock. Like, sure you don't have to take it, but that doesn't get rid of the fact that it exists.

Irrelevant. You'll notice my exchange was about actually creating a Warlock that doesn't struggle to make the choice:



The challenge with any melee warlock is to try to create a character that can do more damage in melee than it does with agonizing blast.


I have found this extremely easy to do by not taking Agonising Blast invocation nor Eldritch Blast cantrip.

You're talking at cross purposes.

I don't say anything at all about the "core issue" of how powerful EB+AB is. You're right: you'd have to house rule those.


That's like saying "Great Weapon Master isn't a strong feat because I never take it".

Absolutely not at all. I have make no statement in that post about the relative strength of EB+AB versus Warlock melee specialisation.

People play builds that are less optimised for damage all of the time.

[Hael]

The rule of thumb for SoM or darkness/ds casting is if you expect a melee battle to last for three rounds or higher, cast it, if not don’t. It’s roughly a 45-50% damage boost per attack depending on AC and things like EA/curse. This then approximately breaks even on round three, and justifies itself on round 4. Of course sometimes you get a prebuff or no target round in which case its a huge win.

The defense of course is the real reason its so strong. Giving the 2h lock something like an effective 21-22ac, free disengages and the untargetable to many spell condition (which is very strong). This spell singlehandedly makes warlocks viable in melee. Without it, only Hexblades be close.

The big Gish killer in 5e are grapples and things like auras, which is why they’re fundamentally better in range with SS/XBE. If you don’t use that, you kinda want a reach weapon, which is why I’m not a big fan of the 2h sword.

[Evaar]

Extra attacks are going to be extremely valuable to a Hexblade especially, due to your flat bonuses from Lifedrinker, Hexblade’s Curse, and potentially Hex or Elemental Weapon.

So Polearm Master is very good. Both ends of the polearm are your pact weapon, all of those effects work on all three attacks.

Since that’s off the table, are you able to use the double bladed scimitar? That’s another way of getting a bonus action attack and it won’t require PAM. Flavor it as a greatsword with a spike on the pommel if you really want that visual. If you can do that, it should be plenty effective. If you’re using Elemental Weapon, that’s 3 attacks adding Charisma+Charisma+1/2d4 and potentially another +10 from GWM and potentially your proficiency bonus.

But if not... keep in mind a glaive is just a really long sword on a longer stick.

Also keep in mind Elemental Weapon is an hour duration. It can last an entire string of encounters if you’re careful. Shadow of Moil is a minute, so it’s much harder to precast and will usually cost you a round. Super good buff if you have the time or you need to shift to defense mode or you really need advantage and your allies aren’t helping with that. But if you can focus on offense, Elemental Weapon will do better (unless you’re packing a +3 weapon).

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Extra attacks are going to be extremely valuable to a Hexblade especially, due to your flat bonuses from Lifedrinker, Hexblade’s Curse, and potentially Hex or Elemental Weapon.

So Polearm Master is very good. Both ends of the polearm are your pact weapon, all of those effects work on all three attacks.

Since that’s off the table, are you able to use the double bladed scimitar?


Neither, for thematic reasons. Polearms in 5e are simplified in ways I don't particularly like (there used to be a drawback), and concept > crunch.

I am aware that strictly speaking, the PAM bonus action attack yields the most damage with GWM and lifedrinker; however I'd also prefer to keep the bonus action free for moving hex and curse and for using teleports. If I decide a bonus action attack really is something I need, a sword of speed is something I could work for.

I have some other feats I really want (fey touched, mageslayer, res:con, war caster, lucky, alert, mobile) and will need to use one or two ASIs. So, I don't think there is room, even with variant human. This won't be a hold the line tank, so many of the benefits of PAM won't be used. A feat solely for an occasional attack isn't worth it.

res:con and war caster will be musts at this table - anyone using something like SoM is going to be making concentration checks with regularity. Melee character get hit with melee and AoE with some regularity.

Come to think of it, Far Step is going to conflict with SoM, which might be a problem. (Figures that one of the melee casters that get access to Far Step the soonest has problems using it).




Also keep in mind Elemental Weapon is an hour duration. It can last an entire string of encounters if you’re careful.

Yeah, the hour duration is nice. However, I expect to use hex and relentless hex at least some of the time.

I'll have to take a look at how EW at +2/+2d4 compares with advantage at 9th;
With or without GWM, damage looks to be equal with advantage and GWM; ahead of advantage and no GWM at AC 19, with things tipping in favor of EW as AC goes down (and this lead increases with curse up). Neat.

IPW or a +1 or +2 magic weapon changes this, of course.

[Mr Adventurer]

Polearms in 5e are simplified in ways I don't particularly like (there used to be a drawback)

FWIW AFAIK, if you're talking about not being able to strike adjacent spaces, this was only true in 3.X edition?

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FWIW AFAIK, if you're talking about not being able to strike adjacent spaces, this was only true in 3.X edition?

They had higher speed factors than most swords in 2e, also.

[Mr Adventurer]

They had higher speed factors than most swords in 2e, also.

Ah yes, of course. Though IIRC there was variance, in general two-handed weapons were slower and pike-style weapons had a lower speed factor?

[Yakk]

Elven Accuracy plus the Double-Bladed Scimitar.

This gets you the extra tap (as a bonus action) and doesn't require PAM. It doesn't use GWM either.

The high accuracy actually generates quite good damage per round, and the 3 taps (at level 5+) work well with hex or hexblade's curse on a single target.

Level 11, EB+AB does 3d10+15=31.5. With Curse, that is +12 for 43.5.

Level 11, lifedrinker, DBS, does 5d4+30 (42.5). With curse it is +12 for 54.5.

So you can keep up with blasting warlocks damage output into T3.

At level 17, EB+AB+Hexblade Curse+Hex does 4d10+4d6+44 (80).
DBS+Lifedrinker+Hex+Hexblade's Curse does 5d4+3d6+48 (71).

But damage boosting weapons are more common than damage boosting spell items; use a flametongue DBS and you hit 92, for example.

This build requires a source of advantage, but only 1 feat (elven accuracy). You don't even need the Revenant Blade feat (its main advantage is making the weapon finesse, and you don't care), but it does give you +1 dex and +1 AC which might be worth it (if you have to start with 13 dex for whatever reason).

Your crit rate is also quite good with EA and Hexblade's curse; 27% per swing. That makes crit-fishing eldrich smites viable (12d8 (54) auto-hit damage + prone is a decent use of a 5th level spell slot)

[cutlery]

Ah yes, of course. Though IIRC there was variance, in general two-handed weapons were slower and pike-style weapons had a lower speed factor?

Yeah; speed factors overall were all over the place in weird ways (iirc a bastard sword was slower when used two handed than one handed, etc), but there were reasons everyone didn't come fresh out of fighter school with a glaive-guisarme.

[iTreeby]

Well, I'd like an arcane half caster if I could get one (that is not an artificer); warlock, ek, or ek with wizard levels seems to be it as far as the choices go for (1) Armor and (2) Greatsword/Axe.


Have you looked at the blood hunter? It might be easier to get your dm to approve that class. It's roughly one step less legitimate than UA and actually seems like a good candidate for your criteria.

[cutlery]

Have you looked at the blood hunter? It might be easier to get your dm to approve that class. It's roughly one step less legitimate than UA and actually seems like a good candidate for your criteria.

I have, but it’s more of a dark theme than I think will work for this table. I don’t hate it, but there are a lot of moving pieces. If I was in love with it I could push for it, but I don’t think I am.

[cutlery]

So, a bit of a non sequitur, but it's my thread: In light of the ongoing discussions about multiclassing, can you make a melee bladelock without going hexblade that stacks up to the hexblade?

Sticking with PHB races (but allowing UA feats and patrons), can you build a strength/GWM melee bladelock that can compete with the warlock without lagging too much behind at critical points?

E.g., does something like a fiend warlock with a level or two of fighter stack up to the hexblade? Unlike the above discussion, stats will start to matter here, as even with a somewhat generous array of 4d6 rolled stats, you'll still have two primary stats (strength and int or cha, depending on whether you go intlock - not really relevant to the discussion though). Even if you get "lucky" enough to have a 17 or 18 in your array, having two of them stretches credulity, so you've got MADness problems.


Option 1
18,10,16,16,12,10 (Intlock, Vhuman after +1s (con and int) and fey touched +1 to int applied); original array was 18,10,15,14,12,10

For a fighter dip, It's probably Fighter 1 -> Warlock 1-5, then either another level in fighter for action surge or continue on to Warlock 12.


Option 2
That same array for a hexblade, though:

10, 14, 15, 18, 12, 10; vhuman + fey touched to 10, 14, 16, 20, 12, 10. Dex is a little low, but check out that int.

Warlock->Warlock 12.



At level 1:

Option 1 is a fighter, plays like a fighter; wears heavy armor (ac 16, chain mail, 17 with defensive). +6 to hit, has access to hex via Fey Touched; can already use a greatweapon or sword and board so either 2d6+4 damage or 1d8+4 and ac 19. 13 hp.

Option 2 is a warlock, can probably manage scale mail (ac 16). Can't use a greatweapon yet, so 1d10+5 or 1d8+5 and ac 16. 11 hp.

Both have access to hex, so ignoring that for now.



Level 2:

O1: F1W1 - 21 hp, AC 17/19, picked up EB as a ranged option, melee is unchanged. One level 1 SR spell slot.

O2: W2 - 19 hp, ac 16/18, invocations (fiendish vigor, devil's sight or grasp of hadar). Melee damage unchanged, now has two spell slots per SR

Level 3:

O1: F1W2 - invocations finally. Going with the same pair as option 2. Damage unchanged.

O2: W3 - pact of the blade. Can use a greatsword with cha now, 2d6+5.

Level 4: Option 2 gets an ASI a level before Option 1
Level 5: Option 2 gets access to extra attack a level before option 1
Level 6: Option 1 catches up with extra attack, but Option 2 gains the Spectre
Level 7: Option 1 gains some other level 6 warlock feature (undead's Grave Touched, fiend's Dark One's Own Luck)

... and so on.


So, even with rather generous stats, is a fighter/nonhexblade bladelock able to keep up? How painful are those lag levels? Is fighter 2 worth taking early, and stretching out the lag? It seems to me that, for the most part, a monoclassed hexblade warlock is still the best way to make a melee warlock, and that even a well-planned multiclass with a different patron will be unlikely to surpass it (special exception to the undead patron).

[Mr Adventurer]

What's an Intlock?

Is it when you take Artificer 3 to get Battle Smith so you can use Int to attack with your magical pact weapon?

[Frogreaver]

So, a bit of a non sequitur, but it's my thread: In light of the ongoing discussions about multiclassing, can you make a melee bladelock without going hexblade that stacks up to the hexblade?

Sticking with PHB races (but allowing UA feats and patrons), can you build a strength/GWM melee bladelock that can compete with the warlock without lagging too much behind at critical points?

E.g., does something like a fiend warlock with a level or two of fighter stack up to the hexblade? Unlike the above discussion, stats will start to matter here, as even with a somewhat generous array of 4d6 rolled stats, you'll still have two primary stats (strength and int or cha, depending on whether you go intlock - not really relevant to the discussion though). Even if you get "lucky" enough to have a 17 or 18 in your array, having two of them stretches credulity, so you've got MADness problems.


Option 1
18,10,16,16,12,10 (Intlock, Vhuman after +1s (con and int) and fey touched +1 to int applied); original array was 18,10,15,14,12,10

For a fighter dip, It's probably Fighter 1 -> Warlock 1-5, then either another level in fighter for action surge or continue on to Warlock 12.


Option 2
That same array for a hexblade, though:

10, 14, 15, 18, 12, 10; vhuman + fey touched to 10, 14, 16, 20, 12, 10. Dex is a little low, but check out that int.

Warlock->Warlock 12.



At level 1:

Option 1 is a fighter, plays like a fighter; wears heavy armor (ac 16, chain mail, 17 with defensive). +6 to hit, has access to hex via Fey Touched; can already use a greatweapon or sword and board so either 2d6+4 damage or 1d8+4 and ac 19. 13 hp.

Option 2 is a warlock, can probably manage scale mail (ac 16). Can't use a greatweapon yet, so 1d10+5 or 1d8+5 and ac 16. 11 hp.

Both have access to hex, so ignoring that for now.



Level 2:

O1: F1W1 - 21 hp, AC 17/19, picked up EB as a ranged option, melee is unchanged. One level 1 SR spell slot.

O2: W2 - 19 hp, ac 16/18, invocations (fiendish vigor, devil's sight or grasp of hadar). Melee damage unchanged, now has two spell slots per SR

Level 3:

O1: F1W2 - invocations finally. Going with the same pair as option 2. Damage unchanged.

O2: W3 - pact of the blade. Can use a greatsword with cha now, 2d6+5.

Level 4: Option 2 gets an ASI a level before Option 1
Level 5: Option 2 gets access to extra attack a level before option 1
Level 6: Option 1 catches up with extra attack, but Option 2 gains the Spectre
Level 7: Option 1 gains some other level 6 warlock feature (undead's Grave Touched, fiend's Dark One's Own Luck)

... and so on.


So, even with rather generous stats, is a fighter/nonhexblade bladelock able to keep up? How painful are those lag levels? Is fighter 2 worth taking early, and stretching out the lag? It seems to me that, for the most part, a monoclassed hexblade warlock is still the best way to make a melee warlock, and that even a well-planned multiclass with a different patron will be unlikely to surpass it (special exception to the undead patron).

I tend to agree. However, fighter does add the con proficiency and with all the feats you want it may be better to get the con proficiency that way. Technically you can still go hexblade after - you still net the con proficiency, second wind, and a fighting style.