Tactical Challenge #3

[da newt]

In this installment, rather than a couple BBEGs, we will switch it up with a handful of not too tough opponents.

Scenario:
Evil cultists are about to start sacrificing children. Your party is just outside their temple. At the end of round 2 and every subsequent round, a child will die.

The Environment:
You are outside the front door (5' wide). It is unlocked.
The interior is one large room 55' N-S, 35' E-W, 30' ceiling, center of room is 15'x15' pit 50' deep with (2) Black Pudding at the bottom (they cannot get out of the pit). The room is well lit with 8 torches on the walls.
There is a hole in the ceiling over the pit that a child will fall out of at the end of round 2 and each round after that (the sacrifice). You cannot prevent them from falling. When your Opponents are defeated, the children will stop falling.
At the N end of the room are two small alters, 5' from N wall and E and W walls (alters are big enough to provide 1/2 cover).

Your Opponents:
(2) Giant Scorpion (MM pg 327) in SW and SE corners acting as guard dogs
(2) Bearded Devils (MM pg 70) to E and W of center pit
(2) Cult Fanatics behind the alters at N end of room. Cult Fanatics are per MM pg 345 with the following exceptions:
Scale Mail AC 16, Guiding Bolt known spell, Gnome race

Giant Scorpion will close to melee range and attack nearest enemy claw, claw, sting.
Bearded Devils will target nearest PC not grappled, close to melee, beard then glaive.
Cult Fanatics will stay behind alters (1/2 cover), target casters over melee, first round Spiritual Weapon & Sacred Flame, then Guiding Bolt & Spiritual Weapon.

Your Party:

Lvl 6 Eldritch Knight: Goblin, ST 10, DX 20, CO 14, IN 10, WI 10, CH 10, Studded Leather, Shield, AC 19, Hp 52, Dueling FS, +1 Scimitar, Short Bow, Proff at Acrobatics and Stealth, Spells: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Shield, Absorb Elements, Disguise Self, Find Familiar
EK's Familiar: King Cobra coiled around his neck

Lvl 6 Wizard: Hobgoblin, ST 10, DX 10, CO 16, IN 16, WI 10, CH 10 You choose spells known, equipment, lvl 4 ASI, Sub-Class, skills

Lvl 6 Moon Druid: Goblin, ST 10, DX 12, CO 16, IN 10, WI 14, CH 10 You choose spells known, equipment, lvl 4 ASI, skills

The Druid and Wizard have no magic items

Initiative:
EK
Bearded Devils
Moon Druid
Cult Fanatics
Wizard
Giant Scorpions

The Action Economy is not in your favor. Can your party Survive, Defeat the bad guys, and save the Kids?

As before, what would you do and especially WHY? What are the most effective tactics that you can come up with? What can we learn from this?

P.S. The EK is one of my PC's. His name is Rufus Xavier Sarsaparilla and the cobra is Queen. Don't let him die.

[Asisreo1]

Does killing the cultists immediately prevent further child deaths in the rounds after?

[Dork_Forge]

Are we to assume that the child dropping automatically stops when they're all dead? Reading comprehension is important
Only the Fighter has skills listed and there's only two of them, can we choose additional skills?

[Frogreaver]

I'm wondering why i don't just web over the black puddings hole to save kids.

[da newt]

Sorry - I left a bit out. When you defeat all your opponents, the children stop falling (Edited). Yes this is silly and contrived, but it provides a reason to hurry.

Frog - Web is a good option, but easy to undo, you hope the kids fail their Dex save, and the Evil folks are still free to do whatever to sacrifice the kids ...

Dork - Sure, add skills as desired.

[Dork_Forge]

Just to confirm before I start rolling it out, would this be an accuracte representation of what you envisioned?

https://img.imageupload.net/2020/10/03/combat-sim.png

[Frogreaver]

Frog - Web is a good option, but easy to undo, you hope the kids fail their Dex save, and the Evil folks are still free to do whatever to sacrifice the kids ...


Thanks. The clarification I needed was - the kids can be prevented from dying. Thanks.

[da newt]

Dork - exactly. Thanks for the visual.

Frog - yes, you can't prevent the kids from falling out of the hole in the ceiling, but you can catch them or whatever once they start falling.

[Unoriginal]

What's the PCs' goal in all this?


How many kids are there in total?

Can we kill the Black Puddings to prevent the sacrifices?

Does something happens if all the kids are sacrificed?

[MaxWilson]

DM ruling needed:

Are the Black visible and small enough that Levitate could work on one? Would 20' elevation bring it up to ground level or would it still be hanging in the air down in the pit?

What say you @da newt?

[Unoriginal]

DM ruling needed:

Are the Black visible and small enough that Levitate could work on one? Would 20' elevation bring it up to ground level or would it still be hanging in the air down in the pit?

What say you @da newt?

Good point.


If it's not possible then I think pushing both of the Devils in the pit and let them deal with the puddings seem to be one of the optimal moves as a start.

EDIT: Well the EK can at least push one of them. Wizard can probably Levitate one of the Scorpions and drop it in the pit too

[Hellpyre]

I feel like a big issue here is how much we care about the children. Assuming that having 0 children die is our goal, readying levitate to catch the first child as they fall and instructing them to prepare to catch the next, in sequence, probably should be the first order of buisness. This helps keep off the timer, and turns the fight into a spirited game of "Protect the Wizard so the Kids Don't Die Horribly". But I can't help but think that while that is a good answer to the problem in-game, it probably goes against the spirit of the question.

EDIT: @MaxWilson, the pit is described as 50' deep in the OP, so levitating the oozes out is probably not going to work.

[Nhorianscum]

So, to avoid godly diviner assumptions. Can you please pre-roll a pair of divination dice?

[Unoriginal]

With a 50ft drop the children are going to die from the fall.

[Dork_Forge]

Currently rolling mine out, chose Diviner and Lucky for the Wizard, Portents came out to 1 and 11, thinking on Tough for the Druid, da newt you ruling that Tough carries over to the moon forms?

Need a judgement ruling, at the tail end of round one and the two scorpions are up, the only PC in the room is the Fighter, the other two are outside with the door closed. The Fighter is in the top left corner in melee with a fanatic with the remaining Bearded Devil 10 ft south of him. The only visible enemy is the Fighter, but to get to him they would have to move through the Druid's Spike Growth and then wouldn't be able to get close enough to do anything without squeezing into the 5ft space left between the Fighter and the Devil. So what would the do?

[da newt]

Pit is 50' deep from bottom to room floor level, so an 80' drop from ceiling total.

There are 10 kids (why not). Your party wants to save as many kids as they can (1) and eliminate the Evil cult (2). If they all die, you fail. Kids have Commoner stats (MM pg 345, 4 hp)

TOUGH - "Your hp max increases based on level ..." my ruling is that this does not change the hp of your wildshape form. (I think that's RAW)

The Black Pudding are Large in size, and if you look down into the pit you can see that the bottom is covered in black grossness that moves of it's own accord (but amorphous in shape so 2 fit in the hole - really they are just meant as a nasty way for the kids to die at the bottom of the pit without having to deal with the heat of a lava pit, or acidic vapors, and what not). Unless you do something to move them, the Pudding will stay where they are.

If you kill the (2) Pudding, then when the kids fall 80' to the bottom of the pit, their bodies will not be dissolved.

I rolled 2 d20 and got 4 and 14.

Dork - if your scorpions perceived the other party members, they know where they are and will try to get them, if they only perceive the fighter they do all they can to get him (INT 1 - instinct only).

[Dork_Forge]

Pit is 50' deep from bottom to room floor level, so an 80' drop from ceiling total.

There are 10 kids (why not). Your party wants to save as many kids as they can (1) and eliminate the Evil cult (2). If they all die, you fail. Kids have Commoner stats (MM pg 345, 4 hp)

TOUGH - "Your hp max increases based on level ..." my ruling is that this does not change the hp of your wildshape form. (I think that's RAW)

The Black Pudding are Large in size, and if you look down into the pit you can see that the bottom is covered in black grossness that moves of it's own accord (but amorphous in shape so 2 fit in the hole - really they are just meant as a nasty way for the kids to die at the bottom of the pit without having to deal with the heat of a lava pit, or acidic vapors, and what not). Unless you do something to move them, the Pudding will stay where they are.

If you kill the (2) Pudding, then when the kids fall 80' to the bottom of the pit, their bodies will not be dissolved.

I rolled 2 d20 and got 4 and 14.

Dork - if your scorpions perceived the other party members, they know where they are and will try to get them, if they only perceive the fighter they do all they can to get him (INT 1 - instinct only).

They would have noticed the door opening and closing, Spike Growth and Tasha's Hideously Laughter were cast through from the outside. So assume they'll move to the door, attack to break it down and squeeze through outside?

[KorvinStarmast]

What I have in mind involves the druid conjuring two giant eagles. They will be told to catch any child that falls and move through to the door with them. (Eagles being large may have trouble getting through the door.
They will alternate. 1 catches, the other is flying the child it just caught out the door.

My problem is the turn based thing; it appears that they need to be near or under the hole, and that might require the eagle to hover ... which isn't in their stat block.

Ruling: can the eagles end a turn under the hole to catch the next child? The eagles will otherwise take the dodge action and move. Or, do you require them to be able to hover to be able to catch the kids that only appear as they are 'falling from a hole in the ceiling'?

I am still working on how to shove the various beasties into the pit: the EK you have has a serious case of "I stink at shoving" going on so the wizard needs to do the heavy lifting on that one.

My second idea involves the spell fog cloud, still working out the battle rhythm.

[MaxWilson]

Korvin, in 5E RAW you don't need "hover" to hover. You only need it to remain aloft when your speed is reduced to zero.

Any flying creature in 5E can fly while staying in one place. In AD&D terms everyone is maneuverability class A.

[Dork_Forge]

Korvin, in 5E RAW you don't need "hover" to hover. You only need it to remain aloft when your speed is reduced to zero.

Any flying creature in 5E can fly while staying in one place. In AD&D terms everyone is maneuverability class A.

Don't they have to expend movement, even if it's just moving forwards and back?

[MaxWilson]

Don't they have to expend movement, even if it's just moving forwards and back?

Not by RAW. A DM can rightfully decide that's dumb and rule otherwise, which could potentially e.g. expose you to opportunity attacks.

[KorvinStarmast]

Korvin, in 5E RAW you don't need "hover" to hover. You only need it to remain aloft when your speed is reduced to zero.

Any flying creature in 5E can fly while staying in one place. In AD&D terms everyone is maneuverability class A. That's how I rule it in my games but I need to affirm that da newt does as well.

Also for da Newt: if the two cultists are killed, does the 'drop the kids' game stop? I presume that they are in charge of kid dropping. Or is that something we are supposed to guess at?

@Max; I have an idea to orient Rope Trick top down rather than bottom up, but I'll need a ruling from da newt on that as well. I can fit 8 kids into the extra dimensional space if they fall/crawl from the hole in the ceiling up/down the rope ... 20 feet above the puddings. that gives a about 8 rounds to figure out how to deal with the cultists and the devils and scorpions.

But if I can't orient it "up to down" rather than "down to up" this won't work.

Da Newt, can the rope trick be oriented such that the opening into the extra dimensional space is 60 feet below the hole the kids are coming out of?

[Unoriginal]

Alright, here's my first draft:

Round 1:

EK charges in, uses bonus action Dash to get between West wall and West Devil. Uses the Shove action twice to push the Devil into the pit, if it doesn't work use Action Surge to Shove twice more. Familiar Ready an action to Help whoever tries to make the second Devil fall into the pit.

Devils turn: one of them is dying in the pit, the other charges 30ft and attacks with the Glaive (out of beard range), leaving it at the corner of the pit.

Moon Druid: Circle West scorpion until being against West wall. Bonus action Wild Shape, become Brown Bear, use +5 in STR with advantage from Familiar vs +3 STR of the Devil to Shove Devil into the pit.

Cult Fanatics: target Wizard

Wizard: uses Telekinesis to get either the Devil (if the Bear failed) or the East Scorpion over the pit, then drop them. Uses the 4 porten rolls to guarantee success. Then retreat out of sight 10 ft east of the door, behind the wall.

Giant Scorpions: East one is dead or dying, West one attack Bear-shaped Druid.


Am I missing anything here? I think it has a good chance of One-Turn-KO the two Devils.

[Nhorianscum]

Alright, here's my first draft:

Round 1:

EK charges in, uses bonus action Dash to get between West wall and West Devil. Uses the Shove action twice to push the Devil into the pit, if it doesn't work use Action Surge to Shove twice more. Familiar Ready an action to Help whoever tries to make the second Devil fall into the pit.

Devils turn: one of them is dying in the pit, the other charges 30ft and attacks with the Glaive (out of beard range), leaving it at the corner of the pit.

Moon Druid: Circle West scorpion until being against West wall. Bonus action Wild Shape, become Brown Bear, use +5 in STR with advantage from Familiar vs +3 STR of the Devil to Shove Devil into the pit.

Cult Fanatics: target Wizard

Wizard: uses Telekinesis to get either the Devil (if the Bear failed) or the East Scorpion over the pit, then drop them. Uses the 4 porten rolls to guarantee success. Then retreat out of sight 10 ft east of the door, behind the wall.

Giant Scorpions: East one is dead or dying, West one attack Bear-shaped Druid.


Am I missing anything here? I think it has a good chance of One-Turn-KO the two Devils.

Right off the bat? TK is a 5th level spell.

[MaxWilson]

Are the kids cute or annoying?

[Unoriginal]

Right off the bat? TK is a 5th level spell.

Thanks, it seems I was seriously misremembering. Then I guess the Wizard Fireball the two Fanatics and the Druid has two scorpions to handle.

[da newt]

When all opponents are defeated, the rain of children stops.

You can place rope trick anywhere you like but "You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends. The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope." The only way into the space is via climbing the rope (can't just walk in, fly in, fall in), and the space is at the upper end. You can use a shorter rope.

* I like the thought though. Points for creativity.

Where does EK get a BA Dash capability? Goblin only grants Disengage and Hide.

Eagles can fly in one place (Sage Adv).

Large Creatures (Giant Eagles / Scorpions) can fit through 5' spaces / doors but it counts as difficult terrain etc per PHB pg 192.

[KorvinStarmast]

When all opponents are defeated, the rain of children stops. OK

the space is at the upper end. OK, fair.

Eagles can fly in one place (Sage Adv). OK, that will be a turn 2 or three choice. Good.
------------------------
Round 1
EK run toward the pit, then turns right along the edge. Takes the dodge action. (and he has shield)
(bearded devils probably attack him, but with disadvantage may only hit a few times. shield blocks one of them)
Druid casts fog cloud centered on the north edge of the pit. (See diagram a few posts up.) It's 20' radius reaches the back of the room and comes 5' into the room. Druid moved 20' north, bonus action change into giant spier, climbs 10' down into edge of pit.
Cultists can't see anything from where they are, not idea what they do.
Wizard casts fly, and flies up underneath to the hole in the ceiling and then down into the fog so that he is not seen.
Scorpions: nothing in sight, not sure what they do, perhaps move to engage the EK? Only one will fit, I think.

I'll get to round two in the next post.

[Dork_Forge]

How would we handle the initiative for conjured animals since we aren't using actual numbers for the order?

[MaxWilson]

When all opponents are defeated, the rain of children stops.

What's "defeated" in this context? Suppose a Hypnotic Pattern incapacitates all the enemies. After that the outcome is a foregone conclusion: you can put them all in manacles, grapple them, restrain them in nets, have all the animals ready attacks on them, and then shove them in the pit with the Black Puddings (still restrained and manacled) right after all of the readied attacks go off and break the hypnosis. At what point in the process of doing that to all of the enemies would the rain of children stop?

[ATHATH]

*altar

Will the black puddings dissolve the corpses of the children, or can they be rezzed later?

[Waar]

My suggestion:

Key abilities:
Evocation wizard: Erupting earth, Lightning bolt, Feather fall, Fly, Fireball. Shield (the wizard is willing to cast shield until its turn in round 2), Precast Mage Armor
Moon Druid: Erupting earth, Tidal wave.
The EK is willing to cast shield and uses its second wind if needed.

No specific ASI is needed for the Wizard or druid, though a +2 to their casting stat doesn't hurt.
The druid has armor and a shield so it has at least ac 15, though this probably isn't critical.

Round 1:
EK: The EK attacks the left scorpion, sticking to the space near the south wall. Unless the attacks do 23 combined damage (average for 2 hits) or more, use action surge to attack more.

Bearded Devils: Advance and attack the EK, the EK uses shield (if able) to hopefully avoid being hit. (+5 vs ac 24 should be fine, but outliers do happen)

Moon Druid: If both Giant Scorpions and both Bearded Devils can be hit with an Erupting earth (without hitting the EK), do that. Else, use tidal wave to hit those 4, without hitting the EK.
Either way: then advance into melee with the right (unengaged) scorpion and turn into a Polar/Cave Bear. You might have to end up next to the pit, as things are getting cramped.

Cult Fanatics: Assuming the Wizard cannot be seen/targeted while still outside, they ineffectually attack the EK and Druid.

Wizard: 3 options, try in order. If it is possible, try to avoid being next to any hostile.
a): if possible (and not provoking more than 1 oppurtunity attack) move so that you can lightning bolt both devils and both scorpions, without being next to the right scorpion. Then cast lightning bolt on the 4 of them.
b) move so that you can cast lighting bolt on both the devils and the left scorpion, without ending next to the right scorpion or taking opportunity attacks. Then Cast Lightning bolt on the 3 of them.
c) Cast erupting earth on both scorpions and both devils.
At this point the left scorpion is hopefully dead.
Scorpions: Attacks.

Round 2:
EK: Attack: try to finish of the left scorpion and the devils, using action surge if able.
Bearded Devils: Attacks.
Moon druid: if still an unpoisoned polar bear, attack the right scorpion and (if the scorpion is defeated) the devils. Else: cast erupting earth or tidal wave on the two Cult Fanatics. If able then turn into a polar bear.
Cult Fanatics: Attacks.
Wizard: Cast Fireball on the two cultists, keep your reaction free to cast feather fall. Try to avoid going next to any hostile.
Scorpions: might be dead, though the right one could still be alive.

Falling child: the wizard cast feather fall on the child.

Round 3:
EK: Attack: try and wrap up the devils (and any remaining scorpion).
Bearded devils: Attack (if still alive)
Moon druid: Finish of the cultist with erupting earth or tidal wave. If the cultists are already dead (and you are unpoisoned) attack the right scorpion and devils (if they are still alive). If the cultists are dead and you are poisoned use erupting earth or tidal wave to try and hit as many enemies as possible without friendly fire.
Cult fanatics: Attack (if still alive)
Wizard: cast fly on self, save falling kid, stay in pit to avoid being attacked.
Scorpions Attack (if still alive)
Falling child #2: the wizard cast feather fall on the child (or just catches it).

Round 4:
Wrap up.

[da newt]

For conjured animals, assume initiative roll 10 + dex, compare to same rule for opponents (devils 12, cultists 12, scorpion 11), insert into initiative order, for Dex ties - conjures go after opponents and a 13 dex goes before a 12 even though both are +1.

Defeated - dead or incapacitated or otherwise rendered a non-threat for at least 1 minute duration with no chance to save. Charmed would qualify if there was no save at end of turn, and the creature has been persuaded to switch teams / leave etc.

Reminder for FOG CLOUD - scorpion have blind-sense so are unaffected.

Yes Black Pudding will dissolve kids leaving no pretty corpse to res.


BTW - I'm making this stuff up, but I'm doing my best to make it as fair as I can figure out how to.

[KorvinStarmast]

ASIs for Wizard and Druid are both spell casting:

Wiz to 18 and Druid to 16. Part of the reason for this is for the thorn whip to pull monsters into the pit when the party finally engages the enemy in combat. Better to hit chance increases the drag 10 feet over the edge and into the black puddings ...

My Round 2:

EK has probably gotten hit a few times despite dodge. Uses disengage as a bonus action, moved to the middle of the pit, and climbs down onto the giant spider/druid. (Fog is still up). Takes "Hide" as action. There may be other spells that he gets hit by or his saves fail at ... but as he's engaged with two bearded devils, I expect that the cultists will not focus fire on him. That's an unknown. da newt, his second wind might need to be a bonus action ... but probably should not since dodge applies to all attacks against him with his 19 AC. Studded leather+shield+dex. I am very tempted to have him use action surge at this point to cast an auditory "minor illusion" that is located about 20' to the north of him, his loud voice yelling "hahaha, I got past you!" for the benefit of the bearded devils.

Bearded Devils: have no visible targets, not sure what they do. Hopefully they move north to get after the EK who just slipped away from them.

Druid: carrying the EK, is 10 feet from the top of the pit and moving sideways to the center of the west face of the pit. Hide/stealth, still in the fog cloud.

Cultists: Have no visible target, may try to shoot into the cloud at disadvantage, now knowing what square/cube the wizard is in. If Wizard gets hit, he casts feather fall as reaction if his con save fails, otherwise he's a dead duck in the black pudding snack tray.

Wizard: move up into the hole (pops in and then out of vision of the cultists) and if his moving up into the hole does not get disrupted he's either blocking the fall of a kid being pushed, or he can feather fall the kid. He needs to grab and pull the kid up with him (Interact with an object?) or we may lose one of the kids. I am hoping him being right under the hole allows for that first pushed kid to be caught/slowed ... and as the kid floats down maybe they can grab the rope? See the next bit ...

As an action he casts Rope Trick, with the rope hanging down from the ceiling 40 feet. (This sets up the grand finale on round 3 for the druid). He yells out "Tricks Are For Kids!" so that the Druid knows he's done the rope trick thing. (If he sees any kids, he whispers "climb up the rope, now" unless there is a significant enemy up in that room).
Giant Scorpions: should be neutralized at this point; no target they can see or reach.

Round 3: EK casts cantrip Minor Illusion to the north (trying to estimate "somewhere near where the cultists were, about 15 or 20 feet from him) which creates the loudest lion's roar that can be managed. This is meant to fool or distract the various enemies somewhat. He could alternatively try to cast it 20' to the east of him as that's "directly behind me" as he's riding the giant spider.

Bearded Devils: may or may not be distracted, no target in sight. Fog Cloud is still up.

Druid: large size creature, can probably reach the rope that he knows will be hanging down due to tricks are for kids. He otherwise jumps directly away from the wall toward the rope and grabs it, climbing up with remaining movement but not quite out of the fog cloud. Hide/stealth as action. Not sure what DC you'd assign to that, but I the rope ought to be there. He's expecting it.

Cultists: may or may not notice the rope, not sure what they can do about it.
I don't think they can do slashing damage to it. No targets in sight, no dispel magic to hand ...

Everyone goes up the rope into the extra dimensional space. EK before Druid, who can switch to druid or smaller animal form like monkey as a bonus action, to get up into the space. Wizard's whole schtick is to get as many kids up that rope as she can, or to try and kill / immobilize whomever was pushing the kids through the hole. Is the last one up the rope, and drops darkness over the hole in the ceiling before he goes up the rope.

They now have an hour to recover any HP they lost, recover two wild shapes if needed, and to arcane recover a third level spell.

Now that the kids are secured, they can choose how they will engage the cultists at their leisure: the objective once back out of the extra dimensional space is to focus fire on the cultists since they have ranged attacks.

Push the others into the pit or kite them as the now very much changed tactical situation evolves.

The whole point of this approach is to rescue the kids; killing the cultists is an associated task. Either killing or neutralizing the others is a mission success. Preference is to use wild shape and help to shove various beasties into the pit.

About round 1: the EK's first move is out of reach of the giant scorpions, as depicted. It's what allows him to get over to the eastern bottom edge of the pit and dodge, and then get covered by the cloud to confuse the enemy.

A risk of this approach: something up there pushing the kids off is way too much for the wizard to handle.

Part of the follow up is to perhaps use suggestion on at least one of the bearded devils to convince them to knock out the two cult fanatics. Once they are knocked out they are neutralized, but I suspect that advantage on the save makes this a low probability gambit. More likely to disable more physically.

[Unoriginal]

My suggestion:

Key abilities:
Evocation wizard: Erupting earth, Lightning bolt, Feather fall, Fly, Fireball. Shield (the wizard is willing to cast shield until its turn in round 2), Precast Mage Armor
Moon Druid: Erupting earth, Tidal wave.
The EK is willing to cast shield and uses its second wind if needed.

No specific ASI is needed for the Wizard or druid, though a +2 to their casting stat doesn't hurt.
The druid has armor and a shield so it has at least ac 15, though this probably isn't critical.

Round 1:
EK: The EK attacks the left scorpion, sticking to the space near the south wall. Unless the attacks do 23 combined damage (average for 2 hits) or more, use action surge to attack more.

Bearded Devils: Advance and attack the EK, the EK uses shield (if able) to hopefully avoid being hit. (+5 vs ac 24 should be fine, but outliers do happen)

Moon Druid: If both Giant Scorpions and both Bearded Devils can be hit with an Erupting earth (without hitting the EK), do that. Else, use tidal wave to hit those 4, without hitting the EK.
Either way: then advance into melee with the right (unengaged) scorpion and turn into a Polar/Cave Bear. You might have to end up next to the pit, as things are getting cramped.

Cult Fanatics: Assuming the Wizard cannot be seen/targeted while still outside, they ineffectually attack the EK and Druid.

Wizard: 3 options, try in order. If it is possible, try to avoid being next to any hostile.
a): if possible (and not provoking more than 1 oppurtunity attack) move so that you can lightning bolt both devils and both scorpions, without being next to the right scorpion. Then cast lightning bolt on the 4 of them.
b) move so that you can cast lighting bolt on both the devils and the left scorpion, without ending next to the right scorpion or taking opportunity attacks. Then Cast Lightning bolt on the 3 of them.
c) Cast erupting earth on both scorpions and both devils.
At this point the left scorpion is hopefully dead.
Scorpions: Attacks.

Round 2:
EK: Attack: try to finish of the left scorpion and the devils, using action surge if able.
Bearded Devils: Attacks.
Moon druid: if still an unpoisoned polar bear, attack the right scorpion and (if the scorpion is defeated) the devils. Else: cast erupting earth or tidal wave on the two Cult Fanatics. If able then turn into a polar bear.
Cult Fanatics: Attacks.
Wizard: Cast Fireball on the two cultists, keep your reaction free to cast feather fall. Try to avoid going next to any hostile.
Scorpions: might be dead, though the right one could still be alive.

Falling child: the wizard cast feather fall on the child.

Round 3:
EK: Attack: try and wrap up the devils (and any remaining scorpion).
Bearded devils: Attack (if still alive)
Moon druid: Finish of the cultist with erupting earth or tidal wave. If the cultists are already dead (and you are unpoisoned) attack the right scorpion and devils (if they are still alive). If the cultists are dead and you are poisoned use erupting earth or tidal wave to try and hit as many enemies as possible without friendly fire.
Cult fanatics: Attack (if still alive)
Wizard: cast fly on self, save falling kid, stay in pit to avoid being attacked.
Scorpions Attack (if still alive)
Falling child #2: the wizard cast feather fall on the child (or just catches it).

Round 4:
Wrap up.

Feather Fall can't save the children, in this situation.

[da newt]

My current best plan goes something like:

EK opens door just enough to slip through, runs up behind Devil, Familiar HELPS, w/ athletic proff EK shoves devil into pit, if fails - shoves again, if fails action surge and keep shoving. If shove succeeds, action surge dodge.

Remaining Devil attacks EK. EK cast shield if needed.

Druid opens door enough to stand in threshold, casts conjure animals for 8 constrictor snakes (or 8 giant owls or I'm still trying to pick best option), 2 on each cultist, 2 on devil, 1 on each scorpion - tell the 2 on scorpions "dodge" tell other "throw them in the pit", druid moves back out of door, E around corner and HIDES.

Cultists - SW and SF att snakes.

Snakes - constrict att Cultists and Devil, if devil is constricted drag into pit, if cultists are constricted drag 15' to edge of pit. Snakes by scorpions dodge.

Wiz - steps into door way casts spell for max effect to take out devil if present, cultists if not. steps back out of door, takes cover behind door.

Scorpion - attack snakes, Snakes probably die.

next round - I'm working on it, maybe druid recasts conjure animals if numbers are depleted and wild-shapes into something nasty and reenters the fray, EK kills things, animals drag cultists into pit / absorb attacks, Wiz casts nasty spell and readies featherfall reaction to save first kid for one round anyway ...

[KorvinStarmast]

My current best plan goes something like:

EK opens door just enough to slip through, runs up behind Devil, Familiar HELPS, w/ athletic proff EK shoves devil into pit, if fails - shoves again, if fails action surge and keep shoving. If shove succeeds, action surge dodge.

Remaining Devil attacks EK. EK cast shield if needed.

Druid opens door enough to stand in threshold, casts conjure animals for 8 constrictor snakes (or 8 giant owls or I'm still trying to pick best option), 2 on each cultist, 2 on devil, 1 on each scorpion - tell the 2 on scorpions "dodge" tell other "throw them in the pit", druid moves back out of door, E around corner and HIDES.

Cultists - SW and SF att snakes.

Snakes - constrict att Cultists and Devil, if devil is constricted drag into pit, if cultists are constricted drag 15' to edge of pit. Snakes by scorpions dodge.

Wiz - steps into door way casts spell for max effect to take out devil if present, cultists if not. steps back out of door, takes cover behind door.

Scorpion - attack snakes, Snakes probably die.

next round - I'm working on it, maybe druid recasts conjure animals if numbers are depleted and wild-shapes into something nasty and reenters the fray, EK kills things, animals drag cultists into pit / absorb attacks, Wiz readies featherfall to save first kid ...
My first draft was EK up the middle, dodge, druid has 8 wolves, 2 on each Devil and 2 on each scorpion. Wolves are to try and knock devils into the pit. EK can try as action surge if needed, that's a neat idea. And the Wizard tosses hypnotic pattern into the back oft the room to disable the cult fanatics. The problem with this is that there are a lot of ways to have "made saves" really mess this up. Probably the key thing to do is to get those devils into the pit.

Round 2 the Druid bursts in BA in to Polar Bear or cave Bear, and he shoves either remaining devil into the pit, help from any remaining wolf and/EK, but EK needs to start filling the cultists with arrows ...

Round 3 I expect the wolves by the door to be neutralized, your idea on constrictor snakes was a good plan for attempting to slow the scorpions down.
Druid probably needs to conjure two Brown Bears to grapple the scorpions, and he as Cave bear drags one to the pit. Round 4 they drag the last scorpion into the pit unless Druid loses concentration.


Round 4 anyone still not in the pit Druid Tries to drag into it with Thorn whip. Cultists are first priority for that.

Wizard flies up and blocks the opening so that no more kids can get shoved through the hole. Tensers Floating Disc under the hole to catch whomever got shoved off next is one way to do that ...

Might lose one or two of the kids under this plan.

[Waar]

Feather Fall can't save the children, in this situation.

Please do elaborate, since as far as I can tell, Feather Fall postpones the landing 1 full round.

[Unoriginal]

Please do elaborate, since as far as I can tell, Feather Fall postpones the landing 1 full round.

Re-reading the spell, you may be right, but we need a ruling from OP.


OP, when in the round would you say the Feather Fall'd child's "drop 60ft" moment occur?

[da newt]

Feather fall - cast as reaction when first kid drops at end of 2nd round, so kid only falls 60' not reaching the bottom of the pit at 80', kid's turn in initiative is last, so kid spends one full round 20' above bottom of pit until kid's turn when they fall into pudding (unless something prevents that outcome).

[Waar]

Re-reading the spell, you may be right, but we need a ruling from OP.


OP, when in the round would you say the Feather Fall'd child's "drop 60ft" moment occur?

I don't see why a ruling would be needed for the specific use I am going for, since no single point during a round would show up twice between the end of the rund and the wizards turn in the new round. (and the total fall is more than 60ft)

[Valmark]

I don't see why a ruling would be needed for the specific use I am going for, since no single point during a round would show up twice between the end of the rund and the wizards turn in the new round. (and the total fall is more than 60ft)

There were two ways the kids could fall:

- The one da newt ruled, meaning the kid has yet to start the fall so they are 80 feet from the ground before Feather Fall, ending 20 feet from the ground;
- The other one is for a kid to be targetable by Feather Fall only when the fall has actually started. If a kid is occupying a 5 feet space then having started the 80 feet fall they'd be 75 feet from the ground- fall 60 feet and you are 15 feet from the ground, within reach of the Puddings.

At least, that's what I think Unoriginal meant.

[Unoriginal]

I don't see why a ruling would be needed for the specific use I am going for, since no single point during a round would show up twice between the end of the rund and the wizards turn in the new round. (and the total fall is more than 60ft)

Some DMs can rule out that a slowed down fall continues at the begining of the new round, or gradualy through the round (ex: 10 ft per turns).

In situations where the landing point isn't deadly pudding, it would allow the Feather Fallen target to reach the ground before their turn, which matters for things like AoOs and spell ranges.

For this situation, given OP's ruling of the kind being suspended above their pastry-looking doom, then it only matters if the Wizard can reach them on time, which they can.

So I was wrong and you were right, Feather Fall does save the kid here. Unless if OP rules that the Wizard needs a full action to grab the kid AND that the kid can't grab the Wizard before falling, but that's not likely to be the case.

[da newt]

For my first round plan, the priority is to get both devils into the pit and prevent the party from taking much damage.

W/ the EK's ac of 19, hopefully DODGE action, and shield spell he should be good to weather the one remaining devil's attacks. The EK vs Devil shoves are 50%, with the first one w/ ADV so 87.5% chance of success w/ first attack action. If they both fail, then action surge to try two more times is 75% success.

Then the Druid's Conjure Animals really helps with action economy and providing targets. Maybe 4 snakes on the remaining devil would be best, with one on each of the other bad guys. Also the Druid could BA wild shape and jump into the fray first round to suck up some attacks, but I think ducking out around the corner to hide is prudent.

I also like 8 giant owls, if they succeed on a grapple, they have enough movement to drop cultists in the pit on first round or move to next target if earlier attempts succeed, more hp and can catch kids later...

Then the Wiz can blast or control on their turn, and back out of the room.

Second round EK, Druid, animals and Wiz can all focus on combat as long as the Wiz ends in a position to Feather Fall the first kid. Druid could wildshape to Allosaurus, Polar Bear, Giant Constrictor Snake, ...

[MaxWilson]

The EK vs Devil shoves are 50%, with the first one w/ ADV so 87.5% chance of success w/ first attack action.

The EK doesn't have Athletics proficiency, so he's got only +0 on his shove attempts, and the Bearded Devils have +3, and ties go to the defender. So, the EK's Shove attempts have only (Sum(1..16)/400) = 34% chance of success, and using Action Surge for four attempts gives (1-(1-.34)^4) = 81% chance of success after four attempts.

Why would he have advantage on the first Shove attempt?

IMO the best way to shove devils in the pit is to conjure a bunch of constrictor snakes, have one them constrict a devil, and then jump in the pit (pulling the devil along with them).

[Unoriginal]

The EK doesn't have Athletics proficiency, so he's got only +0 on his shove attempts, and the Bearded Devils have +3, and ties go to the defender. So, the EK's Shove attempts have only (Sum(1..16)/400) = 34% chance of success, and using Action Surge for four attempts gives (1-(1-.34)^4) = 81% chance of success after four attempts.

Why would he have advantage on the first Shove attempt?

IMO the best way to shove devils in the pit is to conjure a bunch of constrictor snakes, have one them constrict a devil, and then jump in the pit (pulling the devil along with them).

Uh, you're right, I could have sworn the OP said the EK had proficiency in Athletics but I was wrong.

Constrictor snakes conjuration would be nice, though that means the EK has to endure two Bearded Devils for a turn.

Unless if the party hide until after the Devils' turn.

[Waar]

Constrictor snakes conjuration would be nice, though that means the EK has to endure two Bearded Devils for a turn.

Unless if the party hide until after the Devils' turn.

The EK has more than enough AC (with Shield) that enduring attacks from the Bearded Devils shouldn't be a problem, though if it is important, one could take the dodge action.

[MaxWilson]

Uh, you're right, I could have sworn the OP said the EK had proficiency in Athletics but I was wrong.

Constrictor snakes conjuration would be nice, though that means the EK has to endure two Bearded Devils for a turn.

Unless if the party hide until after the Devils' turn.

I'm not super-concerned about the survival of the EK, since he's got Shield. I think this scenario is all about the kids. Wizard will be laying down Fireballs, Moon Druid will Conjure Animals and then turn into a Giant Octopus and be ready to snatch kids (can he use an opportunity attack or does he have to Ready an action? DM ruling needed but I suspect he'll need to Ready) with nonlethal tentacle grappling damage, Fighter... honestly doesn't have much impact on this scenario, but an 81% chance to shove a Bearded Devil in the hole on round #1 honestly isn't terrible and should be taken.

The biggest threat on the enemy team is the Cult Fanatics with Hold Person, and that's one reason for the Moon Druid to wildshape ASAP so he is immune, while the Hobgoblin Wizard just has to rely on luck and Saving Face and Fireball and the fact that the Cult Fanatics will be swarmed by animals soon.

@da newt, if I decide the wizard is a Necromancer, can I have pre-cast skeletons? A dozen skeletons plus a Fireball would greatly accelerate the kill, saving more kids. I'd also like to have pre-cast Mage Armor on the Moon Druid.

[Dork_Forge]

The EK doesn't have Athletics proficiency, so he's got only +0 on his shove attempts, and the Bearded Devils have +3, and ties go to the defender. So, the EK's Shove attempts have only (Sum(1..16)/400) = 34% chance of success, and using Action Surge for four attempts gives (1-(1-.34)^4) = 81% chance of success after four attempts.

Why would he have advantage on the first Shove attempt?

IMO the best way to shove devils in the pit is to conjure a bunch of constrictor snakes, have one them constrict a devil, and then jump in the pit (pulling the devil along with them).

The EK as written doesn't have Athletics, but all of the characters are incomplete (their stat lines are absolutely abysmmal for example), I asked da newt upthread about adding skill profs to the EK an dhe said it was okay (since it only has two).

I gave the EK Athletics for my sim at the first turn tried to shove a BD into the pit, failed the first attempt (rolled high but the devil rolled even higher) and second shove attempt didn't bother risking it and burned a portent.

[da newt]

Based on an earlier question and ruling that you can give skills to party members, and EK only had 2 skills to start, I decided to give him athletics proff (+3) for my plan (underhanded I'm making the rules cheating :smallbiggrin:). Bearded Devils have +3 ST, but no athletics proff. So EK w/ +3 vs Devil w/ +3 = 50%, right?

EK's familiar provided HELP action to give ADV to first shove attempt.

Assuming I didn't dork up my math above, I rolled 10 trials of EK vs Devil shoves: S = successful shove, devil falls in pit
S
S
S
F, F, action surge F, S
S
S
S
S
S
F, S

[Chugger]

I'd use the pit against them: conjure animals, preferably something that can grapple and turn into Giant Octo. If I have 3 Giant Octo it's just a matter of time before I've grappled the devils and scorpions and dropped them in the pit, though the slow movement speed is a problem if the DM rules I can't rotate and use my 15' reach to do the job - this room isn't that big.

A diviner wiz - assume he's rolled one low and one high - can use suggestion to levitate a devil into the air - it has no range attack - it's helpless. Wiz and Dru will have warcaster or resil con to help keep concentration. Fireball cultists one scorps and devil are either floating or in hole.

EK rushes casters. Once scorps and devils are in hole, dru does human form, conjures new animals on the cultists. Once cultists are dead conjured animals catch falling kids while characters use cantrips and ranged attacks to finish off the devils and scorpions in the pit.

[da newt]

Precast Mage Armor - no problem, subtract from available spell slots.

Premade Necromancer Minions - HUGE benefit to action economy / control by being in the way etc. Too much for this scenario, but great point.

Ready Action is required to grapple/catch. Opp Att requires a melee attack on a hostile creature moving out of your reach and you cannot grapple with an opp att because a grapple requires the attack action. (I'm pretty sure this is RAW).

[MaxWilson]

Based on an earlier question and ruling that you can give skills to party members, and EK only had 2 skills to start, I decided to give him athletics proff (+3) for my plan (underhanded I'm making the rules cheating :smallbiggrin:). Bearded Devils have +3 ST, but no athletics proff. So EK w/ +3 vs Devil w/ +3 = 50%, right?

EK's familiar provided HELP action to give ADV to first shove attempt.

Ties go to the defender so it's actually Sum(1..19)/400 = 47.5% chance of success.

Does the EK's familiar share the EK's initiative, for purposes of this thread? I think normally they are separate.

[da newt]

I also rolled out 5 sets of grapples for 8 Giant Owls (+1 ST) vs Devil (+3 ST) and 2 Cultists (+2 DX). S = Successful Grapple, and drop in pit. The assumption is the owls have plenty of movement to be conjured near Devil and Cultists, move to next target, grapple, and drop in pit (60' fly speed, 30' while lifting/dragging). In my very small sample size, 6 Owls took out 1 devil and 1 cultists every time.

D: S
C: S, F, F, S

D: F, S
C: S, F, S

D: S
C: S, F, S

D: F, S
C: F, S, F, S

D: F, S
C: F, S, S

[da newt]

Yes - Familiar acts on EK's turn. I've never seen it done any other way (although RAW it would have it's own initiative).

[KorvinStarmast]

hmm, it appears that TFD isn't going to help me catch the kids.

This spell creates a circular, horizontal plane of force, 3 feet in diameter and 1 inch thick, that floats 3 feet above the ground in an unoccupied space of your choice that you can see within range. The disk remains for the duration, and can hold up to 500 pounds. If more weight is placed on it, the spell ends, and everything on the disk falls to the ground.
Unless I conjure it 3' above the puddings, but then the puddings can reach up with a pseudopod and eat the kids. So that brain fart isn't going to work out.

[MaxWilson]

Ready Action is required to grapple/catch. Opp Att requires a melee attack on a hostile creature moving out of your reach and you cannot grapple with an opp att because a grapple requires the attack action. (I'm pretty sure this is RAW).

You can't normally grapple on an opportunity attack, but I meant as a Giant Constrictor Snake or Octopus, which have grappling built into their opportunity attacks. Just need to make sure it's nonlethal damage.

Would I still need a Ready action in that case?

[da newt]

If you'd like to consider the kids HOSTILE and Opp Att them when they move out of your reach w/ a form w/ auto grapple that's fine. They have AC 10 and 4 hp.

[Nhorianscum]

OhgodImissthesorcerer.

I'm genuinely looking at MA on a full class wizard at this point to make this *consistant*.

[MaxWilson]

Well, I ran this scenario. Made some mistakes but got through it without losing any children.

I took a Resilient (Con) Moon Druid Goblin and a Moderately Armored Hobgoblin Evoker.

Round 1:
EK enters room, has just enough movement to reach the right angle to Shove, shoves one bearded devil in the hole, 20 falling damage. Has one more attack but is out of movement so just stands there and waits.
Devil Disengages and tries to climb out of the pit, beats my arbitrarily-assigned DC 10 Athletics check to make 10' of progress. Other Devil moves around pit to attack closest creature (EK) and misses twice.
Druid enters the room, Conjures Animals (wolves) at the far end of the room, then moves to the south rim of the pit and Wildshapes into a Giant Constrictor Snake (AC 15 due to Mage Armor).
Cultists Sacred Flame wolves, fail twice, Spiritual Hammer wolves, one hit (8 damage) one miss.
Evoker Fireballs the near end of the room, damaging both Giant Scorpions for 25 HP each, no damage to bearded devil or PCs.
Scorpions attack and severely damage druid: claw hit for 10, tail hit for 27 (including poison), claw hit for 9, claw hit for 9. Druid miraculously passes the concentration check on the first three hits (thanks to a natural 20 on the 27 HP hit), but just barely fails concentration on the last claw hit. Wolves pop.
Black Puddings climb walls up to Bearded Devil and miss then hit for 21 points of mostly-acid damage.

Round 2:
EK hits Bearded Devil once with Scimitar, then misses twice, and attempts a Shove which fails.
Bearded Devil hits Giant Constrictor Snake for 10 HP of damage, which "pops" wildshape and leaves the druid back in Goblin form with 6 HP of damage. Goblin makes saves, is not poisoned or infernally wounded. Other Bearded Devil in pit tries to scramble further up the wall (Dashing instead of Disengaging in hopes of getting away from the Black Puddings) but gets hit by a pseudopod for 18 more HP of damage and dies.
Druid re-summons wolves, turns into Giant Constrictor form. Later on in this round I realized that Giant Constrictors only have 5' reach on their constriction attacks, allow the Giant Constrictor to retroactively be a Giant Octopus instead so it can cover the whole area of the pit and not have to worry about a DM ruling on where exactly the child is falling. [Was this cheap of me? Should I have re-run the whole combat? -Max]
Wolves deal 19 damage to one Scorpion, 9 to another, and 8 more damage to the remaining Bearded Devil.
Cultists Sacred Flame the Giant Octopus for 6 and 4 points of damage each. It passes both concentration saves. [I realized after the combat that I was accidentally still using the Goblin's own Con score here--should have had +4 on Con saves, not +6. I don't remember if this would have made a difference. -Max] They spend their bonus action moving Spiritual Weapon closer to the Giant Octopus but can't quite get it in range.
Evoker Fireballs the cultists, killing them (both fail save, 29 damage each).
Giant Scorpions hit for 7, 3, and 22 HP of damage. All con saves pass . Giant Octopus is severely wounded.
Giant Octopus manages to catch the falling child with a non-lethal opportunity attack.


[B]Round 3:
Fighter hits Cultist for 12 points of damage with Scimitar +1, then Shoves cultist in the pit for another 14 HP of falling damage.
Bearded Devil manages to scramble up 10' of wall.
Giant Octopus is grappled by Scorpion, can't move, so can't put child down anywhere safely. [Maybe I should have ruled that the Octopus could do so, but... there wasn't a great place to put them, and in any case I didn't. -Max] Also can't attack Giant Scorpions with tentacles for same reason. Does nothing, although I should have tried to at least break a grapple instead.
Wolves manage to hit one Giant Scorpion for 17 points of damage (killing it), and 13 to the other (killing it too).
Cultists are dead, do nothing.
Evoker shouts for the druid to clear the wolves out of his way (he does so, releasing concentration), struggles through the difficult terrain of the dead Giant Scorpion's body, and just barely makes it to the edge of the pit in time to kill the last Bearded Devil with Magic Missile III, which somehow (???) stops the rain of children.

Reflections:
Tactically, I do think Conjure Animals is a decent solution, but I should probably have focused on taking out the Scorpions ASAP since they are actually the deadliest monsters on the field. I'm not sure if Shoving or attacking the Bearded Devils was the better solution, but letting the EK handle them probably is the best solution, except that having animals Shove them in the pit probably would have been good too. Having animals attack the bearded devils was not that effective, but there wasn't much room to do otherwise. If velociraptors had been an option I would have taken advantage of them to gang up on one of the scorpions at a time but I'm guessing they probably would be disallowed at most tables.

I do not love the "rain of children" scenario. It exerts time-pressure and makes the scenario harder, but it feels contrived, because it apparently effectively removes from play solutions which otherwise make a whole lot of sense (like Hypnotic Pattern to neutralize the Scorpions/Devils/Cultists), and yet--it doesn't feel like those should be bad solutions! I would rather have had this be something like the cultists guarding a doorway behind which sacrifices are occurring--something that solutions for disabling or evading the doorway guard bad guys as good as solutions for reducing bad guys to zero HP. Nevertheless I enjoyed this thread--thanks @da newt for the effort you put into it.

[KorvinStarmast]

I do not love the "rain of children" scenario. It exerts time-pressure and makes the scenario harder, but it feels contrived, because it apparently effectively removes from play solutions which otherwise make a whole lot of sense (like Hypnotic Pattern to neutralize the Scorpions/Devils/Cultists), and yet--it doesn't feel like those should be bad solutions! I would rather have had this be something like the cultists guarding a doorway behind which sacrifices are occurring--something that solutions for disabling or evading the doorway guard bad guys as good as solutions for reducing bad guys to zero HP. Nevertheless I enjoyed this thread--thanks @da newt for the effort you put into it. I don't either, and I have three players who'd be angry with me for doing that as a scenario. (Found out the hard way on that one a couple of years ago).

My entire idea was to stop the rain of kids but here's the problem with my approach: it was too meta. The party doesn't actually know it will start raining kids until the first one comes out of the ceiling and lands in the black pudding. :smallyuk:

What I like about the scenario is that it exercised my "think out of the box" muscles a bit. My whole idea was to make the battlefield obscured and move to stop whomever it was up there pushing kids into the pit. Once that was secured, defeat the enemy in detail, killing cultists first as they had ranged weapons and spells.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sorry - I left a bit out. When you defeat all your opponents, the children stop falling (Edited). Yes this is silly and contrived, but it provides a reason to hurry.

Frog - Web is a good option, but easy to undo, you hope the kids fail their Dex save, and the Evil folks are still free to do whatever to sacrifice the kids ...

Dork - Sure, add skills as desired.

Re: Web... Is it easy to undo any more than any other spell? My understanding is that you only burn away the squares that you target. Also I generally let folks fail saving throws if they want to, which I think is RAW. This seems like the best course of action for Wizard r2. It also potentially seals in anyone who has been pushed into the pit as an added bonus.

This scenario makes me think there is some sort of missing level 1 spell that could create a useful item, like say a decent sized plank.

[Valmark]

This scenario makes me think there is some sort of missing level 1 spell that could create a useful item, like say a decent sized plank.

That's a 4th level spell, actually. Which takes 10 minutes to cast.

Or a 14th level illusionist, I guess.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

That's a 4th level spell, actually. Which takes 10 minutes to cast.

Or a 14th level illusionist, I guess.

Seems like if you can make a web as a level 2 spell, a plank (temporarily) should be level 1. I think there was a thread a few days ago about spells you thought were missing from 5e; I now have one to add: Create Useful Item

[Nhorianscum]

Seems like if you can make a web as a level 2 spell, a plank (temporarily) should be level 1. I think there was a thread a few days ago about spells you thought were missing from 5e; I now have one to add: Create Useful Item

It's gamey but I'm leaning towards...

Gust of wind can just shove the kids out of range of the pit with no save as they autofail the strength check due to "being airborne with no flight" and starting their turn in the area.

They still die/go into death saves but the druid can easily revive 2-3 of them.

[Valmark]

Seems like if you can make a web as a level 2 spell, a plank (temporarily) should be level 1. I think there was a thread a few days ago about spells you thought were missing from 5e; I now have one to add: Create Useful Item
This makes sense, I thought you meant permanent. Though the kids would probably die smashed against the plank, I think?

It's gamey but I'm leaning towards...

Gust of wind can just shove the kids out of range of the pit with no save as they autofail the strength check due to "being airborne with no flight" and starting their turn in the area.

They still die/go into death saves but the druid can easily revive 2-3 of them.

Wouldn't they die outright? Or is instant death by too much damage a variant rule in 5e?

[Unoriginal]

Seems like if you can make a web as a level 2 spell, a plank (temporarily) should be level 1. I think there was a thread a few days ago about spells you thought were missing from 5e; I now have one to add: Create Useful Item

I don't see the logic. Creating a solid object of decent size is a much bigger deal than a web.

The Conjuration Wizard can conjure a temporary 3ft-wide, 10 pounds object as part of their subclass specialization. A lvl 1 spell shouldn't overshadow that.

[da newt]

"I do not love the "rain of children" scenario. It exerts time-pressure and makes the scenario harder, but it feels contrived, because it apparently effectively removes from play solutions which otherwise make a whole lot of sense (like Hypnotic Pattern to neutralize the Scorpions/Devils/Cultists), and yet--it doesn't feel like those should be bad solutions!"

I freely admit the entire thing is HUGELY CONTRIVED. The goal was to add some more bad guys (#), some terrain, some ranged attacks, some cover, some time constraints, and something other than killing stuff to the mix. I never claimed to be good at encounter creation.

Neutralizing / controlling the bad guys should still be very viable, it just doesn't stop the rain of children - but it does make it much easier to catch them and knock off the bad guys.

I'll roll out my plan later today.

[Nhorianscum]

Wouldn't they die outright? Or is instant death by too much damage a variant rule in 5e?

Oh probably, unless they're suuuper lucky, but that's why we crowdfund revifys with gentle repose!

Any Druid Ever: As long as they're not eaten by slimes we can both save children, and hear their bones shatter on impact, it's the perfect plan!

(So disclaimer, Druids can vomit bee's. I cannot conceive of a good aligned sentient being that spent years mastering the art of vomiting bee's.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh probably, unless they're suuuper lucky, but that's why we crowdfund revifys with gentle repose!

Any Druid Ever: As long as they're not eaten by slimes we can both save children, and hear their bones shatter on impact, it's the perfect plan!

(So disclaimer, Druids can vomit bee's. I cannot conceive of a good aligned sentient being that spent years mastering the art of vomiting bee's.) I can see a prankster good Druid with a sense of humor, and a twinkle in their eye, learning how to vomit bees just to have, at the right time, a perfect prank to pull on an overly stuffy local noble ... :smallsmile:

[da newt]

I just figured out that this ruling causes any Dex 15 animals to have their turn after the Devil before the Cultist - but do they go after or before the Druid? Since the Druid has a lower Dex, I'll rule the Dex 15 animal will take their turn after the Devil but before the Druid (not until round 2) ... {Crap I just shot myself in the foot}

"For conjured animals, assume initiative roll 10 + dex, compare to same rule for opponents (devils 12, cultists 12, scorpion 11), insert into initiative order, for Dex ties - conjures go after opponents and a 13 dex goes before a 12 even though both are +1."

[Nhorianscum]

I can see a prankster good Druid with a sense of humor, and a twinkle in their eye, learning how to vomit bees just to have, at the right time, a perfect prank to pull on an overly stuffy local noble ... :smallsmile:

Well yes but he really only mastered the trick after legally changing his name to "Candyman, Candyman, Candyman, Candyman, Candyman"

[MaxWilson]

...Druids can vomit bee's...

How? I missed that one.

I also don't see Gentle Repose on the druid list.

[Valmark]

How? I missed that one.

I also don't see Gentle Repose on the druid list.

It's on the wizard's list! Yeah, that druid comment is misleading.
I too have no idea how they vomit bees though.

[Nhorianscum]

How? I missed that one.

I also don't see Gentle Repose on the druid list.

I'm both exaggerating and being a bit facetious for the sake of humor in a semi-insane scenario that I may or may not use.

I need to lay the groundwork for "why is your entire party evil but also saving kid?!?!?!?"

[KorvinStarmast]

I need to lay the groundwork for "why is your entire party evil but also saving kid?!?!?!?" Because vomiting bees makes me crazy

Unpaid announcement: please support your local Meadery (https://www.rohanmeadery.com/). All of them are big on bee health. (And that one has a neat t-shirt that goes with D&D.
(It's a fun one, I sent it to my brother for a birthday present one year).

https://www.rohanmeadery.com/images/thumbs/0000038_viking-t-shirt_550.png
Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with that place, my wife and I dropped by once on the way back from College Station and enjoyed their hospitatlity and mead.

[da newt]

So I rolled out my plan, and it went like this: (M=miss, H=hit, F=fail, S=success)

EK - opens door just enough to slip in, moves to Devil W of pit and shoves him in the pit F, S
Devil #2 - moves around pit to EK and attacks: M, M
Druid - pokes head into door, cast Conjure Animals for 8 Giant Bats, 2 over Cultists, 1 between cultists, 1 over Devil, 2 over scorpions, 2 @ 10' North of scorpions. Tells bats "Drag them in the pit!" Druid ducks out of room behind door.
Cultists - attack bats. SW H-5hp, SF M, SW M, SF H - 9hp
Wizard - peaks through door, casts Fireball on Scorpions, sculpts out bats, both Scorpion fail save, 28 hp. Wiz ducks behind door and Druid
Scorpion - attack bats, C H-6hp, C H-5hp, S M (2 bats grappled), C M, C M, S H-Bat killed

EK - shoves Devil #2 into pit S, moves to Scorpion, H-7hp, action surge, H-10hp, M
Bats - grapple and drag, M, S C#1, M, S C#2, grappled bats HELP, S S#1, F
(at this point 2 devils, 2 cultists, and 1 Scorpion are in the pit)
Devils - dissolving
Druid - moves into melee, BA Wild Shape Polar Bear, att Scorpion M, H-13hp
Wiz - Fireball Scorpion, sculpt allies, Scorpion makes save, 14-hp Scorpion #2 dead

Wiz is ready to feather fall kid. All bad guys are dead or at bottom of pit. Some Bats are still around to catch kids. Druid can wild shape to anything to get kids, nothing left at this point but mop up.


My entire plan hinges on taking advantage of shove and grapple and a pit that consumes all. If Bats can't grapple, then I'd still Conjure Animals but use them for damage and meat shield - small-ish room makes large beasts tough to fit, maybe 8 Dimetrodon ... I couldn't find anything better than sculpted Fireball for the Wiz - I was hoping for a good control / debuff.

What could I do better?

[KorvinStarmast]

What could I do better?
Who is bringing the beer? :smallbiggrin: