Linear Guild not a challenge?

[pendell]

It occurs to me that , when we first met the linear guild way back pre-strip 100, they were evil twins to the heroes, at the same power level.

Since then, our heroes have fought a black dragon, a hag, a brigand band and its sorceress leader, vanquished a death knight, an eye of fear of flame, a huevaca, and a whoooole bunch of hobgoblins. Not to mention a couple of random encounters here and there.

The Linear Guild has busted out of prison twice (roleplaying XP, I guess), killed a bunch of commoners (CR too low, I expect, to count, and it's still not up to the "sexy shoeless god of war";s body count), and killed a prison guard or two.

The bottom line is that the OOTS is doing a lot more adventuring than the LG is. That means the OOTS is raking in XP and the LG isn't.

Which means that if LG doesn't want to be utterly walked on the next time they meet, it's time for some side quests to start building XP.

Or how else do we explain that the LG remains an evil twin to the OOTS, when one is adventuring while the other isn't?

For that matter ... Sabine is a monster, right? She can't earn XP, can she?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyrael]

Sabine's not a monster, she's a monstrous PC, which is a whole nother story. Check Savage Species for more details.

[Tempest Fennac]

Presumably, Sabine trained in a currently identified class after getting all of her Fiend HDs. I'm guessing that the LG would have been getting XPs over the last few months (also, they may have got a lot of XPs from Nale's plan to get revenge on Elan going successfuly until Elan came back).

[chibibar]

But you see, we don't know what they are doing at the time. I'm sure Nale is not just keep on running. He is probably recruiting and getting stronger. When we don't see them "on screen" doesn't mean their lives are on hold :)

[thereaper]

If we assume them to be NPCs, then how much XP they gather off-screen is however much the DM says they do. And they also get whatever super-powerful equipment the DM wants, too.

If we assume them to be PC's, then they're definitely doing a lot of fighting off-screen.

:sabine: Ugh, I hate these stupid random encounters. They're so BORING!

:nale: Ah, but they are also necessary. We need the XP so we can keep up with my brother. As a good-aligned adventurer, he's no doubt locked in combat at this very moment!

:thog: Thog like tiny squishy friend.

:roach: ...help...me... X.X

[chibibar]

If we assume them to be NPCs, then how much XP they gather off-screen is however much the DM says they do. And they also get whatever super-powerful equipment the DM wants, too.

If we assume them to be PC's, then they're definitely doing a lot of fighting off-screen.

:sabine: Ugh, I hate these stupid random encounters. They're so BORING!

:nale: Ah, but they are also necessary. We need the XP so we can keep up with my brother. As a good-aligned adventurer, he's no doubt locked in combat at this very moment!

:thog: Thog like tiny squishy friend.

:roach: ...help...me... X.X

hehehehehehehe LOVE IT!

I have to agree. In any reoccurring villain, the bad guy will always be just powerful enough in the next encounter :)

[Kurald Galain]

Obviously, the Linear Guild has fought a white dragon, a witch, a soldier troupe and its priest leader, defeated a live paladin, a nose of fun and frost, an acaveuh, and a single hobgoblin. And not a single random encounter.

Is that good planning or what?

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't they be more likely to fight a Copper Dragon being as they are good-aligned acid breathing dragons?

[Lord]

:sabine: Ugh, I hate these stupid random encounters. They're so BORING!

:nale: Ah, but they are also necessary. We need the XP so we can keep up with my brother. As a good-aligned adventurer, he's no doubt locked in combat at this very moment!

:thog: Thog like tiny squishy friend.

:roach: ...help...me... X.X

Meanwhile back with the order...

:roy: UNO!!!

:elan: Wow Roy that level of psion must come in real handy in this game.

:roy: "sigh"

[Fussy]

Forget DnD and xp, tradition demands:

1. recurring evil twin villains be ever-so-slightly more powerful than their good counterparts

2. the good one starts to come out on top (dashing swordsman PrC)

3. Some sort of twist

4. Showdown

5. ??????

6. Profit

[pendell]

If we assume them to be NPCs, then how much XP they gather off-screen is however much the DM says they do. And they also get whatever super-powerful equipment the DM wants, too.

If we assume them to be PC's, then they're definitely doing a lot of fighting off-screen.

:sabine: Ugh, I hate these stupid random encounters. They're so BORING!

:nale: Ah, but they are also necessary. We need the XP so we can keep up with my brother. As a good-aligned adventurer, he's no doubt locked in combat at this very moment!

:thog: Thog like tiny squishy friend.

:roach: ...help...me... X.X


You, sir, have won the thread.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Fussy's comments, didn't Elan seem to have an advantage over Nale the first time they fought each other? I know that the antagonist should idealy have an advantage, but Elan seemed to be the better swordsperson.

[Querzis]

Even if Nale, Sabine and Thog would be two levels or three below the OOTS, it doesnt change anything. Nale plans are dangerous, but as a warrior hes bad. Nale has been closer to destroying the entire OOTS then Xykon or any other villain did. But he never did it by fighting, he did with his plans. Everytime the LG actually fight though, they get beat...kinda easely too. I'm pretty sure the Linear Guild were one or two levels below the OOTS in the first place.

Edit: and Fennac, the first time they fought, Nale one-shot Elan, then Belkar heal Elan and then this happen:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html

When Nale backstabbed Elan, he almost killed him. Then Elan backstab Nale and it look like he cant even get through his armor...so no, I really dont think Elan was going to beat Nale the first time they fought. Nale is a bad warrior but not that bad. Hell, even the second time they fought was unfair, Nale didnt even had his armor or his +3 longsword.

[Kreistor]

The bottom line is that the OOTS is doing a lot more adventuring than the LG is. That means the OOTS is raking in XP and the LG isn't.

Do you think we DM's spend our time calculating XP for our NPC's? Don't be absurd: that's a complete waste of time. You don't know what they do, so if they gain a level here or there, you simply assume they did something to deserve it. Well, guess what? No they didn't, because there's no player in control of them. That's right, there's only me, the DM, and I spend my time designing adventures for you, the player, not the NPC's.

Sure, I might come up with some plot related backstory, but if I need a villain to keep up with the PC's in terms of XP or equipment, I don't waste my time justifying it. I just bump them, and there we go.

the Linear Guild will always be whatever level the Ginat needs them to be in order to be a threat to the PC's, the OotS. Don't go wasting time thinking they'll fall behind. They'll be there, at the threat level they need to be.

[Kaelaroth]

Meanwhile back with the order...

:roy: UNO!!!

:elan: Wow Roy that level of psion must come in real handy in this game.

:roy: "sigh"

He's a "future psychic". Not just any old psion.

Personally, I reckon Sabine's a Succubus Fighter/Rogue with a few levels in Fiend of Corruption (the hottest prestige class ever!). :smallsmile:

[geekyhedgehog]

you're right, Querzis, the first time they fought, Nale almost killed Elan because he set the situation up, not because he defeated him in a duel.

plus, Elan can't suck all that much, can he? I mean, one trip on a blimp can't give you enough XP to raise more than one level anyway, and one level can't help Elan too much, can it?

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point about Nale's plans (admittedly, Xykon doesn't seem to be that interested in seeking out and killing the Order, and Elan didn't expect Nale to stab him in the back. Also, I wouldn't have put it past Elan to have intentionally avoided hurting Nale for some reason). I would assume that they would have pretty much the same stats (except for Intelligence) if they are identical twins, so I would have thought their classes would be the main difference between them when it comes to fighting ability, and Elan would probably have an advantage in that respect due to not having an awful multi-class combination.

[Kurald Galain]

plus, Elan can't suck all that much, can he? I mean, one trip on a blimp can't give you enough XP to raise more than one level anyway, and one level can't help Elan too much, can it?

One level in a good prestige class can.

Although a charisma bonus to damage isn't that shocking. That'd give Elan what, +4, maybe +5 to damage? Whereas normally he'd have +1 or +2 depending on what his strength score actually is.


First battle:
* Hilgya was already gone
* Vaarsuvius vs Zz'tdri: Zz'tdri would have won if not for the lawyer intervention.
* Belkar vs Yikyik: Belkar won without too much trouble (he's got two daggers, Yikyik only has one :smallsmile: )
* Haley vs Sabine: Sabine fled after being hit even once, talk about squeamish!
* Roy vs Thog: Roy appeared to be winning
* Elan vs Nale: Stalemate
* Roy vs Nale: Nale thought he couldn't beat Roy, and ran away
* Elan vs Thog: Thog was going to win if not for the tricks with the illusion

Second battle:
* Elan vs Thog: Not a chance
* Belkar vs Yokyok: Hard to tell given that Belkar couldn't fight inside the city, but he won trough trickery
* Leeky vs Vaarsuvius: Leeky won without too much trouble
* Haley vs Kitty: Stalemate!!
* Durkon vs Leeky: Durkon appeared to be winning more or less
* Roy vs Sabine: Easy, as soon as her buffs wore off
* Roy vs Pompey: Easy

Third battle:
* Elan vs Nale: Again, stalemate, until Vaarsuvius intervened
* Haley vs Thog: Again, not a chance
* Sabine vs Haley: I suspect Haley would have won a one-on-one fight. As it is, she downed Sabine with two sneak attacks


It seems that the combat abilities vary wildly between individual LG members. The OOTS tends to win (1) through superior numbers, i.e. teamwork, and (2) by going for the weak points of the LG.

[Corsair]

The Linear Guild has NEVER been much of a threat to the OOTS in straight up combat. The only time any Order member has been rendered unconscious by the Guild is when Nale backstabbed Elan. Every other instance it's been the Order serving the Linear Guild on a platter. Well, Vaarsuvius had some trouble taking out Zz'dtri, but he still outwitted him.

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't know where they got this from, but someone on the "Class and Geekery" thread suggsted that Elan had weapon finesse (while this would probably be a good feat for him as he seems agile, and he seems to have some skill with it, there doesn't seem to be any evidence which I'm aware of to support the claim, but I'll try and fine out if there is any in a moment.

[MCerberus]

It seemed Elan would always hit but never really did any good amounts of damage until he took a prestige class

[Tempest Fennac]

That is a good point (I got mixed up about how weapon finesse works: I thought it helped to deal damage, but it only adds to your to hit roll. Sorry about that).

[Alfryd]

It seems that the combat abilities vary wildly between individual LG members. The OOTS tends to win (1) through superior numbers, i.e. teamwork, and (2) by going for the weak points of the LG.
The Linear Guild could have wiped out the Order a couple of times over by now if it weren't for Nale's pathological pandering to dramatic impetus. Ultimately, he's his own team's worst enemy. I mean, his life ambition is to be a cliché. How pathetic is that?

[Querzis]

The Linear Guild could have wiped out the Order a couple of times over by now if it weren't for Nale's pathological pandering to dramatic impetus. Ultimately, he's his own team's worst enemy. I mean, his life ambition is to be a cliché. How pathetic is that?

Shun the Nale-haters:smallfurious: ! But seriously, no matter if you hate him or not, how the hell can you say he's his own team worst enemy? Lets check the times they fought shall we.

First time: Nale one-hit Elan and the OOTS are stuck in a wall of ice with two members down thanks to Nale plan. How do they actually won? Haley natural 20. You can say whatever you want but the only reasons Nale didnt utterly destroy them with his legions of outdated monster is dumb luck. And of course, when they actually fight them, they get beat since I never denied they are weaker in combat then the OOTS.

Second time: Nale plan is a success, Elan is in prison and the only reasons he didnt killed everyone before they got to Azure city is because he heard about the Snarl...I really doubt he didnt expect that Elan could escape from prison at some point (he even said that he saw it coming though he didnt expect the leprechaun costume) but since without the Snarl or Julio Scoundrel he would have killed everyone before Elan got there, I doubt it matter much. Yes he could have just killed Elan right there instead of sending him in prison instead of him...and then the rest of the party would have killed him for killing Elan and then they would have resurected Elan. It was more fun, more stylish and actually even more effective that way though it was really needlessly complicated but Nale seems to like to do things in a needlessly complicated way so why should that bother you?

Though I guess you could say he is his party worst enemy in that he dont care about the well-being of his party members and usually send them in suicide mission. But he woudnt be my favorite character if he wasnt a total bastard.

[factotum]

I'd have to agree with Kreistor here. The Linear Guild are NPCs, and as such they will be whatever level they are required to be to make good (albeit comedic, in the LG's case) antagonists for the OotS.

[Tirian]

I certainly don't agree that there is any dedication to keeping the level balance intact. Pompey's evil oppositeness of Vaarsuvius was in no way related to intelligence or power. Heck, Nale isn't going to keep up with Elan's new prestige class unless he trades in his goatee for a handlebar moustache.

[Kurald Galain]

You can say whatever you want but the only reasons Nale didnt utterly destroy them with his legions of outdated monster is dumb luck.

Not really, since those monsters don't have will saves :smalltongue:



without the Snarl or Julio Scoundrel he would have killed everyone before Elan got there, I doubt it matter much.
I disagree with this one. Sure, he could have killed Haley (sneak attack a rogue, how ironic) but he wouldn't have stood a chance against Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Roy.



Oh and yeah, Pompey's membership of the LG was based on color scheme and the fact that huddles are fun, not anything related to his competence. :smallbiggrin:

[Koraks]

Let's not forget Nale's unfavorable multicassing. In the long run, Elan will probably be more powerful than Nale. Then again... Elan never seems to be able to use his spells very efficiently. In fact I don't think he uses all his spells per day! I mean, according to class level and geekery, he shoud be about level 12 bard which means 3/3/3/3/2 spells per day and spells known should be 6/4/4/4/3! Three level 4 spells! I would really love to see Elan dish some out.. Also, I suspect Nale will figure out sooner or later that Elan needs to sprout a pun for the extra damage and would find a way to interrupt him or make him loose his concentration.

[the mysterian]

off panel adventuring.

[Querzis]

Not really, since those monsters don't have will saves :smalltongue: .

Lol I guess but Durkon was down so who cares? The fact that they have no will save is not gonna help a fighter, a rogue, a ranger or a wizard specialized in blasting. Well...I guess Elan illusion would have worked but he can only do a female monsters of one species at a time or puppies anyway.


I disagree with this one. Sure, he could have killed Haley (sneak attack a rogue, how ironic) but he wouldn't have stood a chance against Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Roy.

Vaarsuvius would have been even more easy then Haley, he dont have armor in the first place and have less hit point. Anyway, for everyone else, coup de grace when they sleep is kinda easy. Even Roy was sleeping alone in his chamber that night. It look like to me he did the date with Haley just because it was more cruel (and therefore more fun) to kill her that way.

[Iranon]

The Linear Guild doesn't have to be on the same power level as the Order to be effective recurring villains; Nale's unpredictable, overcomplicated and occasionally inspired plots are a real danger even if it's clear from the outset that his team doesn't quite measure up.

Bridging the power gap by ingenuity and sheer attitude is hardly something new, but I find it refreshing that Rich applies it to a villain rather than to another plucky hero facing impossible odds.

[Fussy]

The Linear Guild doesn't have to be on the same power level as the Order to be effective recurring villains; Nale's unpredictable, overcomplicated and occasionally inspired plots are a real danger even if it's clear from the outset that his team doesn't quite measure up.

Bridging the power gap by ingenuity and sheer attitude is hardly something new, but I find it refreshing that Rich applies it to a villain rather than to another plucky hero facing impossible odds.

Agreed. I hope Nale never dies, but is just 'defeated'.

[Alfryd]

You can say whatever you want but the only reasons Nale didnt utterly destroy them with his legions of outdated monster is dumb luck.
As has been observed, maybe he should have considered the fact thatose outdated monsters were decommisioned for a reason. Like Will saves.

Second time: Nale plan is a success, Elan is in prison and the only reasons he didnt killed everyone before they got to Azure city is because he heard about the Snarl...
No. The reason he didn't kill everyone is because he insisted on wallowing in his own sense of ego gratification by contriving an elaborate villainous setup where he thrusts a dagger into Haley's heart at her moment of peak romantic excitement. Thereby wasting time, effort, and needless risk on his own sense of inflated self-importance. He always does this.

As opposed to, say, killing V when he was alone at the bar. Killing Haley when she was alone. Killing Belkar using hold person and a Coup de Grace. Burning the bodies so they can't be raised, then recalling the rest of his team to gang up on Roy and Durkon.

Heck, if he had simply concentrated his forces in the first place when Roy walked into the warehouse, he could have stood a decent chance of wiping out the entire Order by the battle's end. Instead, he conspires to have over half his forces chucked into prison with no enemy fatalities so that he can execute his elaborate doppelganger scheme, all the better to gloat over his brother afterward.

He is such an arrogant ****tard.

...but Nale seems to like to do things in a needlessly complicated way...
It's precisely because he does things in a needlessly complicated way that his schemes always flop. Sure, other circumstances contribute to that failure, but if he stuck to a straightforward, efficient plan of action, there wouldn't be any such window of opportunity for things to go wrong.

...why should that bother you?
Because he's irritating. He's not funny. He's not interesting. He's got no psychological depth, no originality, and no pathos. He's almost a non-character. Intellect aside, he has all of Elan's faults and failings and none of his charm or innocence. I honestly wish he would just drop down a bottomless pit and never climb out again.

[FoE]

Y'know, this debate raises another interesting question:

If Elan now has levels in a prestige class, what will Nale do? Will he maintain the fighter/rogue/sorceror combination or qualify for a prestige class that is the opposite of the Dashing Swordsman?

[Spiky]

I don't know about Sabine or Thog, but Nale had to gain at least one level from dealing with Pompey and Julia. Teenagers are very dangerous. Mental instability ensues for those in charge.

[CabbageTheif]

there is a real simple answer, still keeping with the whole 'gaming' idea

the DM is right.

with this one-step, easy-to-follow guide, you can have your rrule-mongering party terrified of your evil grin in no-time. seriously, when it comes right down to it, the linear guild could just stay the same level for no other reason then that its how the story goes. pluss, the 2 prison breaks were with the core three (only split three ways) and odds are they would recruit people who were the right level.

and getting sprinkles in a mideval fantasy world setting? major bonus points.

[Roderick_BR]

Nale was reading to the next known portal. He's likely to get his group in his own encounters, fighting off in others locations and stuff.
The need for new equipment alone is enough motive for them to treasure hunt a bit along the way.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding Alfryd's comments, I think the whole point of Nale is for him to be a 1-dimentional "Bond"-type villan. Wouldn't the opposite of the Dashing Swordsman class in this case involve Nale continuing to take levels in 3 different classes? It would involve Nale continuing to be personally weak which would be opposite to Elan become useful to a degree.

[Kurald Galain]

Heck, if he had simply concentrated his forces in the first place when Roy walked into the warehouse, he could have stood a decent chance of wiping out the entire Order by the battle's end.
Except that he didn't want Roy, he wanted Elan.

I can't deny that Nale is an arrogant son of a botch, I consider it a strong point that not Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) enough to Just Shoot (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhyDontYaJustShootHim) the good guys.



Will he maintain the fighter/rogue/sorceror combination or qualify for a prestige class that is the opposite of the Dashing Swordsman?
I think he can't bear the idea that his brother has more prestige classes than he does, and will invoke the PHB2 retraining rules to get at least three different prestige classes of his own, none of which involve "dashing" or "swords".

[TSED]

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Nale ends up with levels in Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and whatever the heck fighter / rogue combo gets...

[Querzis]

As has been observed, maybe he should have considered the fact thatose outdated monsters were decommisioned for a reason. Like Will saves.

And once again...so? The Order would still have been utterly destroyed, will saves or not. Sure it would probably have made is legion of outdated monsters weaker when he got out of there but...really just so what? I dont see your point.


No. The reason he didn't kill everyone is because he insisted on wallowing in his own sense of ego gratification by contriving an elaborate villainous setup where he thrusts a dagger into Haley's heart at her moment of peak romantic excitement. Thereby wasting time, effort, and needless risk on his own sense of inflated self-importance. He always does this.

As opposed to, say, killing V when he was alone at the bar. Killing Haley when she was alone. Killing Belkar using hold person and a Coup de Grace. Burning the bodies so they can't be raised, then recalling the rest of his team to gang up on Roy and Durkon.

No no no no, if he would have really wanted to do this then his first target should have been Roy who was sleeping alone in his chamber. V was alone at the bar but its a bar, there was probably witness and as long as V was awake, it was dangerous to attack him. After Haley, he would have had the time to kill everyone in their sleep...by the way, why do you assume he got hold person?


Heck, if he had simply concentrated his forces in the first place when Roy walked into the warehouse, he could have stood a decent chance of wiping out the entire Order by the battle's end. Instead, he conspires to have over half his forces chucked into prison with no enemy fatalities so that he can execute his elaborate doppelganger scheme, all the better to gloat over his brother afterward.

They got beat in straight fight against the order last time (and last time they actually had a good wizard) so...it should be different this time because? And it was really the greatest suffering he could have possibly inflicted on Elan, I mean you saw comic 367 or what? Though its true that before mentionning Julio scoundrel or the Snarl, I should point out that Elan got out of prison thanks to Thog.


He is such an arrogant ****tard.

He sure is, he woudnt be my favorite character otherwise. By the way, you can write bastard without the * you know.


It's precisely because he does things in a needlessly complicated way that his schemes always flop. Sure, other circumstances contribute to that failure, but if he stuck to a straightforward, efficient plan of action, there wouldn't be any such window of opportunity for things to go wrong.

Lets see, your straightforward plan of action seems to be to fight the order directly...they already did that, it doesnt work.


Because he's irritating. He's not funny. He's not interesting. He's got no psychological depth, no originality, and no pathos. He's almost a non-character. Intellect aside, he has all of Elan's faults and failings and none of his charm or innocence. I honestly wish he would just drop down a bottomless pit and never climb out again.

Well at least you made one point in your post, you hate him...so? He crack me up, I think hes really interesting and I cant wait to see what hes gonna do next. And if you read Iranon and Fussy post you should realize I'm not the only one. I gotta admit I dont find him original, but I find no character in OOTS (or in every story I read for the last 15 years) original at all. You should really say you 'think' all of this instead of saying this as if it was a fact though. I hate Miko, I think shes the greatest bitch I ever heard about (notice the 'I' and the 'think')

[Crimson Avenger]

I beleive Shakespeare referred to them (Nale-esque antagonists) as paper villians.

ie: Much Ado About Nothing

The evil dude is in the story just so the story has an evil guy in it.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Obviously, the Linear Guild has fought a white dragon

White dragons are evil too.

[Kurald Galain]

White dragons are evil too.

Yes, well, evil characters sometimes fight one another. That's because they're, what's that word again, "evil" :smallbiggrin:

'sides, the OOTS, most of which are good, fought a paladin, who is good too.

[krossbow]

I love Nale. He's my favorite villian, one who uses plots, plans, and over complicated evil-ness to win, not brute strength. Granted, he did recruit a druid who CoDzilla'd the town to pieces, but that was an anomally.



He's great because if he WASN'T cliched, the order would all have died long, long ago. He is able to actually outsmart them-- they ARE literally not intelligent enough to outsmart him. This is the thing. They didn't notice that he'd replaced Elan, they didn't piece together his plan in the city, and they were dumb enough to help him kill the 3 guardians in xycon's lair. He doesn't have to be much smarter to be dangerous to the order.

[Kish]

And once again...so? The Order would still have been utterly destroyed, will saves or not. Sure it would probably have made is legion of outdated monsters weaker when he got out of there but...really just so what? I dont see your point.

I believe his point is that having an army which automatically fails, not just Will saves, but all 3.x edition saves, would backfire on Nale sooner or later. All it would take is one area effect save-or-be-defeated spell, even if any 3ed character would make the save on a 2. Vaarsuvius could probably handle them alone now.


He sure is, he woudnt be my favorite character otherwise. By the way, you can write bastard without the * you know.

I'm guessing Alfryd wrote something else. Something with eight letters counting "tard." Something that begins with "f," and the board does bleep out the first four letters.


Well at least you made one point in your post, you hate him...so? He crack me up, I think hes really interesting and I cant wait to see what hes gonna do next. And if you read Iranon and Fussy post you should realize I'm not the only one. I gotta admit I dont find him original, but I find no character in OOTS (or in every story I read for the last 15 years) original at all. You should really say you 'think' all of this instead of saying this as if it was a fact though. I hate Miko, I think shes the greatest bitch I ever heard about (notice the 'I' and the 'think')
Good point.

(I'm generally indifferent to Nale, myself.)

[Doug Lampert]

Regarding Fussy's comments, didn't Elan seem to have an advantage over Nale the first time they fought each other? I know that the antagonist should idealy have an advantage, but Elan seemed to be the better swordsperson.Nale is possibly one of the least efficient multiclasses in the history of gaming (well, there was a Rog1/Brd1/Sor1 IIRC in the OoPCs, IIRC Haley's comment was, "How's that BAB working out for you?"). But basically Nale is what happens when you try to build a bard type character without actually taking "underpowered" Bard levels.

Nale is sufficiently more competent than Elan to fill the "Evil Opposite" role not because the CHARACTER Nale is more powerful than the CHARACTER Elan, but because Elan's "player" is totally incompetent. What's on the character sheet and stat-block hardly matters given that. But on those occassions where it comes down to straight combat and Elan's "player" makes even vaguely sane decissions Elan should win in a walk because he is not an insanely gimped multiclass. Which is good, the evil opposites aren't supposed to actually WIN even if they do seem more powerful.

In reply to others: The Linear guild comes close to winning NOT because of some brilliant planning ability of Nale's, but because they typically have the initiative in encounters with TOotS, and the side that gets to buff and prepare in advance in D&D land has an enourmous advantage. Even when the OotS KNOWS what they are getting into and gets to pick the exact start time as in cliffport the Linear Guild is STILL the only side with any buff spells pre-cast.

[Kish]

Elan's "player" is totally incompetent.
I wish people would quit saying things like this.

It's a roleplaying game, people, not a min-maxing game. Take two players. The first player designs an Elan or a Belkar. The second player designs a statistically flawless powerhouse who never loses a fight, never has to run away, never makes a mistake. The first player is competent at Dungeons and Dragons, the second is horrifically incompetent.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, everyone says the OOTS are all going to get new looks, but what about the LG? I'm sure they'll be back with some new abilities and some new members as well.

I like the LG. It gives us a break from Team Evil. Not that their bad villains or anything, but I love seeing what the LG are up to.

[Querzis]

Well, everyone says the OOTS are all going to get new looks, but what about the LG?

Well I just hope Thog is not gonna keep that leprechaun costume...And I really hope Sabine is gonna wear that schoolgirl outfit again.

But I'm not sure if they are gonna get new member, Nale is not interested in the OOTS anymore so he wont try to keep the evil opposite theme.

[Kish]

But I'm not sure if they are gonna get new member, Nale is not interested in the OOTS anymore
Ahahahaha. Nale is not interested in the OotS anymore? Nale will stop trying to take dreadful revenge for Elan's not wanting to join him while they both live?

[Querzis]

Ahahahaha. Nale is not interested in the OotS anymore? Nale will stop trying to take dreadful revenge for Elan's not wanting to join him while they both live?

After he get the power of the Snarl he'll have all his time to torture Elan as he want but right now hes trying to capture another gate so yeah, I dont think getting new 'dead weight on this team' is really a priority. Beside, though I perfectly understand why he attacked the OOTS the first time, I really had the impression he tried to kill them the second time because he really had nothing better to do.

[AstralFire]

I wish people would quit saying things like this.

It's a roleplaying game, people, not a min-maxing game. Take two players. The first player designs an Elan or a Belkar. The second player designs a statistically flawless powerhouse who never loses a fight, never has to run away, never makes a mistake. The first player is competent at Dungeons and Dragons, the second is horrifically incompetent.

1) Stormwind Fallacy, lalala.
2) OotS has no 'DM', so 'roleplaying' isn't there to oppose combat efficiency on any level.
3) When he said "incompetent", he's clearly referring to battle ability and not playing D&D on the whole.
4) It's quite possible to build a non-combat focused character who's not Elan or Belkar. As a player, I generally minmax first towards skills because my characters generally prefer to deal with situations sans destroying everything. Clever tactics trump minmaxing every time, and are almost entirely a function of roleplay. I've had my level 3 Changeling Bard defeat a level 3 optimized Orc with a single level 0 spell thanks to tactics - amazing what Ghost Sound can do for a clever person. This leads me to point 5:
5) No one can get away with the second type of character, power-wise, with any sort of DM who has any sort of an eye on balance. My party has some heavy min-maxing, but in the end, the group is greater than the individual; our rogue is horrifically weak, our Duskblade is above the party's average strength at this level. Doesn't matter. If he plays selfishly (which, to his credit, he very much does not) then the weaker members start getting chopped down and soon he's fighting alone against high CR enemies. Being perfect combat-wise is impossible, so as long as your characters display competence, the DM can scale up or down as appropriate.
6) With that in mind, a 'perfect' character personality-wise is typically somewhat boring (Superman as seen classically) but can also be handled very well by an experience player/writer (again, Superman, look at Alan Moore stuff) who responds excellently to situations rather than relying on internal faults to generate conflict.
7) To reiterate point 1, if you're running an epic fantasy game or a high-intrigue, noir, high-death game - too much combat incompetence can very quickly doom a party. If you have to resort to DM handholding too much, it destroys any feeling of suspense.

I run a high-RP, high-skills, occasional combat game. Combat is my favorite part, but I view it like cake icing - best used sparingly, in conjunction with the rest of the cake. We've had several sessions go without a single attack roll being made, and they were fun ones! Very fun ones. But even the monk who can't think so gud cuz he got a 8 Int doesn't make too many foul-ups because he's also got 16 Wis, and that's good, since I don't know if they could have successfully convinced the Iceblood Horde to join them in the war against the Knights of Nordheim if they'd been playing Elan or Belkar.

Not that Elan and Belkar are bad (they are two of my favorite characters) but they're also running on high levels of DM Fiat for a different feel than I'm going for. Strictly put, their players are (perhaps intentionally) bad at strategery and stuff. That's cool, but it's not for every game.

[Alfryd]

Except that he didn't want Roy, he wanted Elan.
That's exactly the problem! Staging an elaborate dramatic revenge is more important to him than dealing with his enemies efficiently.

No no no no, if he would have really wanted to do this then his first target should have been Roy who was sleeping alone in his chamber...
Sure, fine, absolutely, there are many possibilities here. The point is that Nale picked the plan that was the most dangerous, lengthy and involved, all for drama's sake. He shoots himself in the foot. And if the Order weren't so utterly tuned-out to Elan's serial idiocies by now, the game would have been up long beforehand. However slim Nale's chances in a fair fight could have been, he managed to make them even worse when taking the surreptitious option.
Hell, what was wrong with slipping some delayed poison into the iron rations before bedtime?

They got beat in straight fight against the order last time (and last time they actually had a good wizard) so...it should be different this time because?
Because Roy apparently didn't bother to buff himself or any of his allies beforehand, while V, Durkon AND Haley were having their asses handed to them by Leafy. Elan is a non-factor in combat and Belkar was crippled by the mark.

Even when the OotS KNOWS what they are getting into and gets to pick the exact start time as in cliffport the Linear Guild is STILL the only side with any buff spells pre-cast.
Exactly. Roy's dizzying failure to plan effectively here continues to baffle me.


And once again...so? The Order would still have been utterly destroyed, will saves or not.
Really? Then how on earth did Durkon survive? Oh, that's right- he used a simple low-level spell that rendered the entire group of hostiles completely impotent.
Perhaps the following would be of use:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnoticPattern.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/confusion.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fear.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repulsion.htm
And what about the bargain-bin Invisibility Sphere that V procured?

Heck, the odds are fair that 2E dynamics mean all the monsters will be subtracting attack rolls from their THAC0, and/or or that all 3 saves can apply versus any of their spells. You can guess what that works out to.


You should really say you 'think' all of this instead of saying this as if it was a fact though.
Anything I say is automatically 'just my opinion.' I'm not going to waste bandwidth qualifying to that effect. If you want to debate something, you need to state a position that can be proven or disproven on the basis of evidence, and nobody can disprove 'I think'.

But I don't hate Nale. Firstly, I would have to take him seriously.
Ugarte: "You despise me, don't you?"
Rick: "I might, if I gave you any thought."

[Balgus]

WARNING _ spoiler ahead...

With much of his team dessimated, Nale will surely have recruited new/more powerful NPCs - YikYik was killed and he recruited YakYak- his son - only to have his revenge foiled by Belkar's wit.. hwo knew that were possible

Sabine has connections to the underworld and can ask for legions of demons and such...

Thog has not even shown his true strength yet.. he never raged except to get out of prison. With that strength, he can really be a powerful foe...which we have yet to see

And Nale has six multiclasses (or something like that) which mean he is not getting the full benefit of any of his classes. If he can find a way to retool himself... with 4e perhaps, Or if he can commit to one and get the higher up class benefits..

And the druid would have been more than any one oots char been able to take.. had it not been for Thor's interference...

[Spiky]

WARNING _ spoiler ahead...

With much of his team dessimated, Nale will surely have recruited new/more powerful NPCs -

And the druid would have been more than any one oots char been able to take.. had it not been for Thor's interference...

Unless V had happened to have the right spells prepared. He would've taken out Leeky's mess in one round.

Why spoiler comic recaps?

[Mesfens]

Nale really needs to drop the "evil opposite" theme. [I mean, it lead to embarassing and stupid choices such as picking an apprentice mage to combat V] If he does, he might actually manage to defeat the OOTS :smallbiggrin:

[Arssanguinus]

1) Stormwind Fallacy, lalala.
2) OotS has no 'DM', so 'roleplaying' isn't there to oppose combat efficiency on any level.
3) When he said "incompetent", he's clearly referring to battle ability and not playing D&D on the whole.
4) It's quite possible to build a non-combat focused character who's not Elan or Belkar. As a player, I generally minmax first towards skills because my characters generally prefer to deal with situations sans destroying everything. Clever tactics trump minmaxing every time, and are almost entirely a function of roleplay. I've had my level 3 Changeling Bard defeat a level 3 optimized Orc with a single level 0 spell thanks to tactics - amazing what Ghost Sound can do for a clever person. This leads me to point 5:
5) No one can get away with the second type of character, power-wise, with any sort of DM who has any sort of an eye on balance. My party has some heavy min-maxing, but in the end, the group is greater than the individual; our rogue is horrifically weak, our Duskblade is above the party's average strength at this level. Doesn't matter. If he plays selfishly (which, to his credit, he very much does not) then the weaker members start getting chopped down and soon he's fighting alone against high CR enemies. Being perfect combat-wise is impossible, so as long as your characters display competence, the DM can scale up or down as appropriate.
6) With that in mind, a 'perfect' character personality-wise is typically somewhat boring (Superman as seen classically) but can also be handled very well by an experience player/writer (again, Superman, look at Alan Moore stuff) who responds excellently to situations rather than relying on internal faults to generate conflict.
7) To reiterate point 1, if you're running an epic fantasy game or a high-intrigue, noir, high-death game - too much combat incompetence can very quickly doom a party. If you have to resort to DM handholding too much, it destroys any feeling of suspense.

I run a high-RP, high-skills, occasional combat game. Combat is my favorite part, but I view it like cake icing - best used sparingly, in conjunction with the rest of the cake. We've had several sessions go without a single attack roll being made, and they were fun ones! Very fun ones. But even the monk who can't think so gud cuz he got a 8 Int doesn't make too many foul-ups because he's also got 16 Wis, and that's good, since I don't know if they could have successfully convinced the Iceblood Horde to join them in the war against the Knights of Nordheim if they'd been playing Elan or Belkar.

Not that Elan and Belkar are bad (they are two of my favorite characters) but they're also running on high levels of DM Fiat for a different feel than I'm going for. Strictly put, their players are (perhaps intentionally) bad at strategery and stuff. That's cool, but it's not for every game.

By saying stormwind fallacy ytou instantly lose the arguments, no ifs, ands, or buts.

That whole fallacy, so to speak is an excuse for saying 'I win!' and running away without actually proving anything.