Well that's weird: druid's can't cast web

[KorvinStarmast]

A druid can wild shape into a variety of spiders, but does not have web in their spell list.

Do I break anything if I add web to the druid spell list?

[Millstone85]

Possibly irrelevant, but web is a circle spell for land druids of the Underdark.

[KorvinStarmast]

Possibly irrelevant, but web is a circle spell for land druids of the Underdark. True.
My beef is that it is not on the standard druid spell list.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sure, go for it. I don't know if being able to Wild Shape into a Spider really means you should but I doubt it would ruin anything if you allowed them to.

[OldTrees1]

Druids get Entangle instead of Web. This stems from older editions (and 5E to an extent) balancing the casters by tailoring their lists. They could make Druid 2nd level spells weaker than Wizard's. They could make Druids have a broader list than Clerics. That let them balance having casters with class features.

History lesson over. I am looking at 5E Web vs 5E Entangle now.

Looks fine to add Web to the Druid list.

[MaxWilson]

A druid can wild shape into a variety of spiders, but does not have web in their spell list.

Do I break anything if I add web to the druid spell list?

Web is one of the best second-level spells, and access to it is an advantage for land druids, sorcs, and wizards. It's good enough that I've taken it as a Magical Secret. Handing it out to druids for free seems gratuitous.

Not broken per se but could bug some players in the same way giving Simulacrum to Bards would.

[micahaphone]

I'd be tempted to make entangle upcast a level do the same thing as Web anyway. They're nearly identical in function, web is just a little better in exchange for a higher slot

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I have been puzzled by that as well.

Its a good spell and of course it would be a boost to the druid. That said its a concentration spell so less of a big deal.

If you wanted a balanced approach to letting the druid have it, I would say let druids cast it but instead they lose heat metal from their list.

[Unoriginal]

A druid can wild shape into a variety of spiders, but does not have web in their spell list.

I don't get the issue. A druid can wild shape into a variety of flying creature, but does not have Fly in their spell list.


It's not like it's actual web, either.



Do I break anything if I add web to the druid spell list?

No, but I don't see why do it either.

[Chugger]

To be honest, my druid doesn't miss web. I typically cast Spike Growth (less so as I leveled up) - mostly summon animals to fight with me when I wildshape (moon). If I want to control enemies, I try to summon Giant Octopi if the room is not too big - they're slow but have 15' reach and restrain. Spiders can shoot webs, tho the recharge is a little too slow for combats that end quickly. If DM doesn't give me what I ask for - some DMs pick what shows up - I can always block enemies or make it hard for them to get past my animals. Or have them grapple if they're capable of it.

[Mr Adventurer]

I too don't understand the problem, since when you are wild shaped into a web-slinging spider, you can indeed use its ability to sling webs?

[ahyangyi]

Not broken per se but could bug some players in the same way giving Simulacrum to Bards would.

Well, bards having Magical Secrets makes this a weird example...

[KorvinStarmast]

I too don't understand the problem, since when you are wild shaped into a web-slinging spider, you can indeed use its ability to sling webs? The web attack of a giant spider is on a single target. The second level web spell comes on line at third level, and covers an area to slow enemies down ... it's a different application.

The points about Entangle are a reasonable response also. It's a very similar area of effect; maybe upcasting Entangle ought to increase it's effects, or attract the fire / burn off supplement.

@MrStabby: Heat metal's got nothing to do with this.

@chugger: Summon Animals is a level 3 spell, web is level 2, and is a different thing (SA is a fantastic spell, to be sure) ... but, if you summon a bunch of spiders or constricting snakes, you can also use that to lay a bit of AoE battlefield control as well. Yes.

[Mr Adventurer]

The web attack of a giant spider is on a single target. The second level web spell comes on line at third level, and covers an area to slow enemies down ... it's a different application.

Well yeah - but your original complaint was that it seemed odd that Druids couldn't do webs despite being able to take the form of spiders - hence my query seeing that they can. If your complaint is actually just that you want Druids to have access to the Web spell, full stop, then there's not much else to say, is there?

[KorvinStarmast]

Well yeah - but your original complaint was that it seemed odd that Druids couldn't do webs No, my complaint was that the web spell was not on the druid spell list. (And I was quickly pointed to the Underdark land druid exception, Lolth connection ...) It seems to me to be incongruous that a druid who can turn into and summon spiders can't cast the magical web spell (the principle of similarity being applied here).
Hence the thread: it seems to be at odds with the nature of this class. (pun intended)

[MrStabby]

@MrStabby: Heat metal's got nothing to do with this.


I am getting the feeling you didn't read/understand my point.

It was a suggestion for how, if you care about balance, you could balance a druid having a new, powerful level 2 spell by giving up something similar. It was a suggestion for what to give up. The emphasis was very much on IF. If you dont care about balance then sure, add anything you like without taking something away.

[Mr Adventurer]

No, my complaint was that the web spell was not on the druid spell list. (And I was quickly pointed to the Underdark land druid exception, Lolth connection ...) It seems to me to be incongruous that a druid who can turn into and summon spiders can't cast the magical web spell (the principle of similarity being applied here).
Hence the thread: it seems to be at odds with the nature of this class. (pun intended)

Ok, but you're still appealing to thematics at the root of your complaint, so you can see where I'm coming from: those thematics are already in place via other means. Druids who turn into spiders that throw webs can throw webs. Druids that are especially spidery can cast Web. I'm also thrown off that you seem mollified by pointing to Entangle. Though a similar effect, it's thematically different. So it seems like it's the mechanical effect that you want after all, even though you're saying it's about congruity with spider adjacency.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wild Shape aside, Web does seem like it fits on the Druid list by virtue of it being a vaguely animal-themed spell <shrug>

[Unoriginal]

A Druid can cast Call Lightning but not Chain Lightning.

One is the Druid influencing nature, the other is an arcane "let's enter the cheat code" manipulation with a passing ressemblance to the natural phenomenon.


Web also belongs to the second category, to me. Although that the Underdark Land Druid has it might indicate it's more a question that regular Druids aren't in tune with spider spirits for that.

[elyktsorb]

I find it odd that both Web and Entangle exist when it seems like the main difference between them is Web can effect a creature multiple times.

They both have a similar radius (20 ft square for entangle and 20 ft cube for Web, but being able to put web in the air requires being able to connect it to solid surfaces so I wager most people just do the option where it's layered on the ground and ergo ends up with the same effect radius as Entangle)

Entangle has a farther casting Radius at 90ft where Web can only be cast up to 60ft.

Web can stay active waaay longer (up to an hour) compared to Entangles 1 minute. Though I doubt anyone has ever kept Web up for anywhere close to it's full duration.

Web in a 5ft square can be burned away, so it can be countered by fire spells or a tinderbox.

Web's only real advantage imo, is that it forces a Dex save for every turn a creature is in it, as opposed to Entangle which just requires a single Strength save to avoid the effect, which makes Web more ideal for denying area.

Though I would restrict this due to Moon Druid shenanigans where they could cast Web and then shift into a Spider, where as they would normally have to spend an action to use a Web attack that's 1: less reliable than the Web Spell, and 2, has to recharge in a die roll. Also any Web a Moon Druid would have access to as an actual spider only get's a max Strength DC of 12, where if they got to keep up a Web spell, that would scale off their Wisdom Save which for most Druids would be better than a DC 12 at 2nd level. Then there's the fact that if a Moon Druid casts Web, and then turns into a Spider, they could technically have 2 instances of Webbing affecting a Creature, and there's nothing to state the Web spell can't overlap with a physical Web from a Spider creature. Furthermore, in single target encounters, a Moon Druid could abuse a Web Spell to keep range and continuously attempt to make a Creature roll twice a round to stay unwebbed (provided the Moon Druid's physical web recharged consistently and they hit with it consistently)

I mean a Moon Druid could do this by multiclassing into a class to get access to the Web spell, but that's a severe hindrance to a Moon Druid in terms of leveling that wouldn't be worth it in the slightest.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spider-Druid, Spider-Druid,
Wants his spider powers renewed.
Can't cast web, any size;
He just entangles guys.
Look out! He's still a Spider-Druid!

Is it fine? Listen, man.
Web requires two walls to stand;
Strength or Dex can escape,
And fire ends its fate.
Hey there, not great for Spider-Druid.

Web's two-thirds the sprawl*, what's the point of this power?
It's twenty feet tall, and can last for an hour.

Spider-Druid, Spider-Druid, what's it mean to be Spider-Druid?
If flavor he ignores, power is his reward.
If you clear it with the gang (up), wherever there's a hang (up),
You'll cast entangle, man!


Nuance and clarity I couldn't fit into the song: "Sprawl" refers to range, not area. I realize it sounds more like "area," which is incidentally equal if you don't worry about flying enemies, but if you wanted wording that didn't require a footnote you shouldn't have written this to the tune of a theme song!

Anyways. I don't get why entangle is first-level and web second-level. Unsurprisingly, the spells have very similar mechanics.
As alluded to, web reaches up twenty feet and can be sustained for an hour and lightly obscures the area. I didn't notice this until after finishing the song (and don't know how I could cram it in), but entangle doesn't entangle creatures who enter the area late. Finally, I guess there are times when a Dexterity save to avoid being restrained is good...
...but since escape is still Strength-based, big but clumsy enemies won't be restrained for long. Meanwhile, weak but agile enemies can just avoid being caught, which they can't with entangle. Also, the range is worse (90 feet versus 60, and possibly half the area by way the spells are worded, depending on the DM).

All of this combines to make only three situations where web would be superior to entangle:
1. The thieves you want to catch are, themselves, like flies. In that they fly, and near enough to two vertical surfaces you can stick webs between.
2. Your enemies are big, but too slow to make it even halfway through the web in one move (meaning they'll get caught in the web the turn after they break free and have to escape again).
3. You want to briefly delay passage through an area for an extended period of time, and nobody you're trying to delay has fire.
4. You have some plan exploiting the fire, which isn't better solved by another AoE fire spell that deals more than 2d4 damage.

Oh, and web absolutely needs two walls (or trees or something):

If the webs aren’t anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn.
Yikes.


My overall response is: It won't break anything, because web isn't really better than entangle so much as useful in different situations, but it's a higher-level spell. If you clear it with the gang (up), reflavor your entangles as spider webs. It should be an easier sell than "Look at what this guy online says about how much web sucks!"

[Benny89]

Go for it. It's only a game, the point is to have fun. Modify game as you and your players like to have fun.

Don't listen to old RAW grumpies here :)

[MrStabby]

Spider-Druid, Spider-Druid,
Wants his spider powers renewed.
Can't cast web, any size;
He just entangles guys.
Look out! He's still a Spider-Druid!

Is it fine? Listen, man.
Web requires two walls to stand;
Strength or Dex can escape,
And fire ends its fate.
Hey there, not great for Spider-Druid.

[/i]Web's two-thirds the sprawl*, what's the point of this power?
It's twenty feet tall, and can last for an hour.

Spider-Druid, Spider-Druid, what's it mean to be Spider-Druid?
If flavor he ignores, power is his reward.
If you clear it with the gang (up), wherever there's a hang (up),
You'll cast entangle, man!


Nuance and clarity I couldn't fit into the song: "Sprawl" refers to range, not area. I realize it sounds more like "area," which is incidentally equal if you don't worry about flying enemies, but if you wanted wording that didn't require a footnote you shouldn't have written this to the tune of a theme song!

Anyways. I don't get why entangle is first-level and web second-level. Unsurprisingly, the spells have very similar mechanics.
As alluded to, web reaches up twenty feet and can be sustained for an hour and lightly obscures the area. I didn't notice this until after finishing the song (and don't know how I could cram it in), but entangle doesn't entangle creatures who enter the area late. Finally, I guess there are times when a Dexterity save to avoid being restrained is good...
...but since escape is still Strength-based, big but clumsy enemies won't be restrained for long. Meanwhile, weak but agile enemies can just avoid being caught, which they can't with entangle. Also, the range is worse (90 feet versus 60, and possibly half the area by way the spells are worded, depending on the DM).

All of this combines to make only three situations where web would be superior to entangle:
1. The thieves you want to catch are, themselves, like flies. In that they fly, and near enough to two vertical surfaces you can stick webs between.
2. Your enemies are big, but too slow to make it even halfway through the web in one move (meaning they'll get caught in the web the turn after they break free and have to escape again).
3. You want to briefly delay passage through an area for an extended period of time, and nobody you're trying to delay has fire.
4. You have some plan exploiting the fire, which isn't better solved by another AoE fire spell that deals more than 2d4 damage.

Oh, and web absolutely needs two walls (or trees or something):

Yikes.


My overall response is: It won't break anything, because web isn't really better than entangle so much as useful in different situations, but it's a higher-level spell. If you clear it with the gang (up), reflavor your entangles as spider webs. It should be an easier sell than "Look at what this guy online says about how much web sucks!"

The difference in saves is to me the big difference in the power of the spell. Dex save means that on some enemies you are more likely to get that crucial first turn of restraint. Those without decent ranged attacks tend to be those with the highest strength scores (for a given CR) so you do get a lot of extra value from it. Then a check to escape not a save just makes it a little harder to escape and requiring an action is a major inconvenience.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The difference in saves is to me the big difference in the power of the spell. Dex save means that on some enemies you are more likely to get that crucial first turn of restraint. Those without decent ranged attacks tend to be those with the highest strength scores (for a given CR) so you do get a lot of extra value from it. Then a check to escape not a save just makes it a little harder to escape and requiring an action is a major inconvenience.
I guess, yeah. (I kinda covered that with point 2.) But it strikes me as a very situational improvement, worth a situational drawback but not multiple situational drawbacks and an increase to spell level.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or, just sort it out with that uncommon item, wand of web.
Wand, uncommon (requires attunement by a spellcaster)

Sorted.

For Mr Adventurer:
Ok, but you're still appealing to thematics at the root of your complaint, so you can see where I'm coming from: Thank you.

For Grod: thanks for seeing what I was getting at, but it's also not a deal breaker.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm starting to suspect that putting my argument to music was a waste of time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm starting to suspect that putting my argument to music was a waste of time.
I doubt that. It looks like a fun thing to do, and fun isn't a waste of time. :smallwink:

[MrStabby]

I'm starting to suspect that putting my argument to music was a waste of time.

My sound was turned off.

[Tanarii]

Hasn't Web always been a magic-user spell?

Edit: Confirmed BECMI, AD&D, 3e and 4e it was a magic-user/Wizard spell, and not a Druid one.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hasn't Web always been a magic-user spell?

Edit: Confirmed BECMI, AD&D, 3e and 4e it was a magic-user/Wizard spell, and not a Druid one. OK, I guess they went with "tradition" in this case. I can confirm from Eldritch Wizardry (page 13) that the original Druid second level spells were:

2nd Level: Produce Flame, Locate Plants, Speak with Animals, Cure Light Wounds, Obscurement, Create Water, Heat Metal, Warp Wood

[Democratus]

OK, I guess they went with "tradition" in this case. I can confirm from Eldritch Wizardry (page 13) that the original Druid second level spells were:

2nd Level: Produce Flame, Locate Plants, Speak with Animals, Cure Light Wounds, Obscurement, Create Water, Heat Metal, Warp Wood

The question I have is: why did they get rid of Warp Wood?

That spell was amazing.

[KorvinStarmast]

The question I have is: why did they get rid of Warp Wood? That spell was amazing. Not sure, but they removed a lot of spells to get 5e down to a manageable size.
(And for my money, it could use another liposuction)

[Hytheter]

Oh, and web absolutely needs two walls (or trees or something):

The very text you quoted states you can just layer it over a single surface. You don't need two walls, the floor or ceiling will do. The only real limitation is that it can't just hover in midair.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The very text you quoted states you can just layer it over a single surface. You don't need two walls, the floor or ceiling will do. The only real limitation is that it can't just hover in midair.
And it goes away after one round if it doesn't have something to hang on to. I bolded that part so you'd notice.

[KorvinStarmast]

And it goes away after one round if it doesn't have something to hang on to. I bolded that part so you'd notice. but for that one round, the enemy is restrained (if they don't dex save) which benefits your allies, or can.

[GreatWyrmGold]

but for that one round, the enemy is restrained (if they don't dex save) which benefits your allies, or can.
I guess it's technically not useless, but using one of your actions to maybe restrain an enemy for one round seems like a meh trade even before spell slots come into the picture.

And remember, my argument was ultimately "It would be more productive to ask your group about flavoring entangle as web"; I don't need to prove that web is worthless, just that it's not worth the hassle of getting a rules change.

[KorvinStarmast]

I guess it's technically not useless, but using one of your actions to maybe restrain an enemy
Or a bunch of enemies. (Slowing down a mob, or a part of a mob for a round isn't a bad thing ...)

Entangle stands on its own, and it's a first level spell.

I have also cast web on a flying creature (wyvern) who failed its save.
It was restrained.
Speed = 0.
It fell.
Only lasted a round, but it took a bit of falling damage and one of the martials was able to grapple it. ( A brilliant plan until the stinger hit him - OUch!). We then dogpiled it.

While we think it was RAW, I can see some DM's not liking that, and some who would have offered a moving wyvern advantage on the Dex save.

You conjure a mass of thick, sticky webbing at a point of your choice within range. The webs fill a 20 foot cube from that point for the duration. In a case like that (aim at a point between the wyvern's wings or between their feet) it's a save or suck spell rather than an area control attempt.

[Darc_Vader]

And it goes away after one round if it doesn't have something to hang on to. I bolded that part so you'd notice.

I don’t know about that. I personally read

If the webs aren’t anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. as separate conditions that one of must be met for it to stick around. The part about collapsing is just there to prevent the narratively incongruous possibility of a floating block of webs; a square of layered webs remaining as a hazard seems to be absolutely within the RaW of the spell to me.

[Tanarii]

I don’t know about that. I personally read
as separate conditions that one of must be met for it to stick around. The part about collapsing is just there to prevent the narratively incongruous possibility of a floating block of webs; a square of layered webs remaining as a hazard seems to be absolutely within the RaW of the spell to me.
Not just floating, if you try to make a freestanding 20ft cube it also collapses and dissapears. You get a 20x20x5 shape instead when its layered on the ground.

But thats perfectly useful. And also really annoying as a DM that only scanned the spell and expected it to work like previous editions.

[Hytheter]

And it goes away after one round if it doesn't have something to hang on to.

No it doesn't. You are misreading the text.

"If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn."

OR. Meaning that layering across a wall, floor, or ceiling also works fine. It only collapses if you don't do any of those things, i.e. if you put it in midair like I said. It even goes onto specify that layered webs are 5ft deep, so the intent is obviously not that the spell would just end in such a case.

[KorvinStarmast]

No it doesn't. You are misreading the text.

"If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn."

OR. Meaning that layering across a wall, floor, or ceiling also works fine. It only collapses if you don't do any of those things, i.e. if you put it in midair like I said. It even goes onto specify that layered webs are 5ft deep, so the intent is obviously not that the spell would just end in such a case.
Nicely done, I think most DM's I know agree with that take.

[Kurt Kurageous]

How about your entangle spell LOOKS like a web instead of the book description? No muss, no fuss.

[KorvinStarmast]

How about your entangle spell LOOKS like a web instead of the book description? No muss, no fuss. Not asking about reskinning, but thanks for the suggestion.

[elyktsorb]

Not just floating, if you try to make a freestanding 20ft cube it also collapses and dissapears. You get a 20x20x5 shape instead when its layered on the ground.

Well it disappears on the start of your next turn, so in theory you could slap a 20ft cube of webbing in the middle of the air to mess with flying creatures, but they only get restrained for the single turn.

[Segev]

The main advantage of web over entangle for a wild-shaper into spider-form is web-walker. Is that the thing you want to use?