My apologizes to all.

[eyebreaker7]

I would like to apologize for asking to many questions. I hate to admit it but that's one of the reason I no long get to play. That and the fact that I called out the rogue for stealing from the party. Seems I was the only one with it being a problem. "He's just playing his character." just doesn't cut it for me. So it's been a few years since I've looked at a book. We played 3.5 so that's what I have books for. I just don't know a lot of stuff. I guess if I read EVERYTHING I might get a better idea. But I'm not the best reader and have problems with it. Another thing I hate to admit is that I am socially considered "a little slow" which doesn't help either. I know in the past I've made mention of having a group to play in but that was a lie. As I said it's been a few years. I would love to get back into it but with no group there's no play. Right now I have just been trying to come up with ideas to maybe start my own group. Don't know if I could get any players down at one of the local gaming stores but there's usually people looking. I barely go out and it is almost never to one of them so that also doesn't help. I'm a little hobbit hiding in my hole in the basement I pay rent for. I enjoy making things up for the game so I ask a lot of questions. These forums is my DM right now. So without dragging this on more I just want to apologize for asking to many questions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would like to apologize for asking to many questions. I hate to admit it but that's one of the reason I no long get to play. That and the fact that I called out the rogue for stealing from the party. Seems I was the only one with it being a problem. "He's just playing his character." just doesn't cut it for me. So it's been a few years since I've looked at a book. We played 3.5 so that's what I have books for. I just don't know a lot of stuff. I guess if I read EVERYTHING I might get a better idea. But I'm not the best reader and have problems with it. Another thing I hate to admit is that I am socially considered "a little slow" which doesn't help either. I know in the past I've made mention of having a group to play in but that was a lie. As I said it's been a few years. I would love to get back into it but with no group there's no play. Right now I have just been trying to come up with ideas to maybe start my own group. Don't know if I could get any players down at one of the local gaming stores but there's usually people looking. I barely go out and it is almost never to one of them so that also doesn't help. I'm a little hobbit hiding in my hole in the basement I pay rent for. I enjoy making things up for the game so I ask a lot of questions. These forums is my DM right now. So without dragging this on more I just want to apologize for asking to many questions.What is this forum for except for the exchange of information? Asking questions is central to that.

Join an online play-by-post group, maybe? It'd give you time to think about the things you say before you say them, and you could look up information and ask about things (both here and to the other players, including the DM) before posting stuff. Alternatively, you could write a D&D isekai-type story, if you're good at coming up with fluff-stuff and want to flex your D&D muscles. Or you could have it be [insert generic D&D-like RPG here] instead of 3.5 or Pathfinder. You could be the next Overlord (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overlord_(novel_series)).

And yeah, being a social shut-in (regardless of reason) can be rough, especially if you don't want to be. You're not the only one stuck right now, that's for sure.

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, having thieves in the party can sometimes be challenging. I remember one time, a fellow player's character stole something, and I decided my character wasn't down for that. So I mind-controlled him into giving the misbegotten goods back. And then, in retaliation, he revealed my status as an undead to a bunch of paladins, promptly leading to my death destruction. Maybe there were better ways that could have been handled.

[bean illus]

.

.

... ... ... you mean rogues aren't supposed steal from other party members?



... ... ... really?



... ... ... uhmm ... uhhhm ...

[Quertus]

I'm not hearing anything here requiring an apology. If asking questions required an apology, I would owe SO MANY apologies right now.

(Heck, people around here are so danged helpful, they often answer the questions I was just using as examples! The Playground really is just unbelievably awesome.)

Good luck finding a group that has a better and more visible policy on PvP that is inclusive of actions like theft, and that isn't rife with venerating "My Guy" syndrome.

[Falontani]

Thieves that steal from their party are usually cast out before too long. Thieves guilds don't allow it, and adventurers certainly do not allow it. I rather enjoyed watching the old DND movies even if they aren't the best, they are rather funny. But the two MCs are both thieves, and never steal from each other, nor anyone within their party. Its a taboo.

the "my character would do it" is a great defense, until you realize that following the logic, "my character would do it" would include the party throwing the thief out if caught, kill the thief, or if you had a paladin may even jail the thief. the bare minimum would be to talk to the thief as a party and tell them that it is not ok to steal from the party.

many works of fiction have thieves, rogues, and swashbucklers. The ones that the party can't trust, generally don't stay within the party long.

Regardless of the whole thief thing. Ask as many questions as you feel the need to ask, just make sure to ask them in the correct locations. Usually the RAW thread is the best place to ask a question, and only if it is a bit more than a RAW question is a full thread needed to ask them. Use the search functions and google (or your preferred search engine) to check backlogs when you can, as you can usually find an appropriate answer, and when you can't you can be sure that someone will probably be wondering a very similar question not too far down the line. Biggest thing on asking, is always know that the more information you give about the exact scenario, the better the answer and more precise the answer will be. Although some suspects will be able to garner far more than you expect from a simple question, or better yet will just give you a full lecture when you ask something simple like, "How to grapple?"


I hope I'm not going overboard myself >.> cya around ^_^

[Vizzerdrix]

1- Never apologize for asking questions.

2- Next time, play a kender cultist necromancer. Start sacrificing the other party members and re-animating them. See just how long that "Muh character" milarky will last.

[bean illus]

About the OP; to tell the truth, I'm a wreck.
I have trouble making friends. The things they care about, well, i often can't understand why they care about those things. And the things that i feel are so clear, or important, others often look at me like I'm from another planet, or like I'm talking about an imaginary friend.

I just try to pretend or assume that everyone goes through that, and remember that so very, very many people have problems and lives worse than mine, and that i have to do my part in making things ok, or things will never be ok.

In response to Falotani:
Of course rogues steal from the party. Maybe not all rogues, and maybe not all the time, but even here on this thread we've got more than one example of rogues doing it, and of tables recognizing it as something that might happen.
Of course, yes, the paladin might retaliate by 'just playing his character', or some other repercussion. But, it's a roleplaying game.
I'm not suggesting rogues should steal from party members, but to suggest it doesn't happen ... . It's really up to the DM. If a DM told me not to do it, i wouldn't. But if he grins slyly and allows it ...
For the record, i mostly steal little things like potions that i find while scouting ahead of the party. Or maybe big things like the Arkenstone ... lol.

Btw, yes, I've played rogues that don't steal from the party.

[KoDT69]

"It's what my character would do" is slang for "I'm being a complete douchebag and I'm not sorry". To have a group defending a Rogue being "that Rogue" is just astounding. I'm guessing each of them take turns bring similarly annoying. Having no game sucks, but having gamers like that seems like more trouble than they are worth.

[Maat Mons]

There exists no situation in life for which an XKCD (https://xkcd.com/1146/) link isn't appropriate.

[bean illus]

"It's what my character would do" is slang for "I'm being a complete douchebag and I'm not sorry".

I'm guessing each of them take turns bring similarly annoying. Having no game sucks, but having gamers like that seems like more trouble than they are worth.

I'm not sure why other people playing a game the way their dm lets them would make you call them names. It's their character. It's their group. It's their dm. Maybe I'm not understanding, again.

[Batcathat]

I'll just join... well, everyone else in saying that asking "too many" questions isn't really an issue in a place like this. I've noticed that you've started a lot of threads but I don't see a problem with it and don't think anyone else would either. As long as you're not being a jerk, being an active forum member is usually considered a good thing.

In regards to the secondary discussion of rogues "being rogues" I think my position is somewhere in the middle. Out of character I wouldn't mind much, as long as the rogue didn't take anything too valuable but the rogue should be prepared for other characters to be upset and react in character. "It's what my character would do" cuts both ways. The same goes for any other potentially problematic characters, like a fighter who wants to start a fight for no reason or a paladin pushing their morals on everyone or whatever.

EDIT: Oh, and I second MaxiDuRaritry's suggestion of joining a play-by-post game. It's been quite a while since I had a regular IRL group and an online one can be an excellent replacement (with the added benefit of being easier to work into your schedule).

[eyebreaker7]

As far as the asking questions goes, someone replied to one of my questions and mentioned something about it.
As for the rogue, he was stealing loot not items off of other characters. Sorry, forgot to mention it that way. It was someones bright idea to give the thief the ring of invisibility we found. So when the DM said something about one of use that was checking that body seeing it move a little but it being dead (after telling the rogue to make a skill check (I forget which skill) it was pretty obvious to me since the body was dead. I don't remember how we found out it was "just a gem" but what else has/will he steal from loot? Idk maybe I over reacted?

[KoDT69]

I'm not sure why other people playing a game the way their dm lets them would make you call them names. It's their character. It's their group. It's their dm. Maybe I'm not understanding, again.

Simply put, D&D is supposed to be a team game. If it were everyone on board with the behavior, then it wouldn't be an issue. But the OP was not OK with it and is well within his right to call out an untrustworthy member of the party. The rest made him feel like he was wrong for doing so.
If you were your character, depending on this party to work together to survive all manner of fantastical adventures, would you really trust your life with a rogue like him? He's just as likely to watch you fall unconscious and loot you and leave you for dead. My first character was a Thief in AD&D. I was only 14. I still didn't steal from my own party. I wouldn't want to deal with that crap just like the guy who tried to play an evil character in a good party just to cause strife. No thanks.

TL;DR: It would be fine if everyone agreed, but OP didn't agree.

[_RAGNAR_]

if a thief that steals from his team members is just being playing his character, a team member who doesnt like it is also just playing his character.

I'd be just playing my character as I beat him ....

Even in evil parties we understood we needed trust and team work to achieve greater goals than we could alone.

[Jay R]

It's easy to design a character that would betray the party. Stealing from them is one way to do it, but there are lots of others. Then "playing my character" means betraying the party.

It's also easy to design a character that will treat the party as trusted allies. This way, "playing my character" means working together with the party.

I design the second way, and I only play with people that design characters the second way. [I'm well aware that various forms of PvP are common, and I've played that way in the past. But I don't choose to do so any more.]

When I last played a Rogue in Flashing Blades, I wrote a specific code of behavior for him. I called it a code of honor, but it was straightforwardly self-serving. It included things like:

Never steal from the poor; they have no money.
Never steal from the party; they know where you sleep.

But other players do run PCs who will steal from, betray, murder, or in any other way attack other PCs. Try to convince them to play characters who are loyal to the party. If that doesn't work, you have two choices:

Put up with it, or
Don't play with them.



When I want to attack my friends, we go outside and fence.

[bean illus]

if a thief that steals from his team members is just being playing his character, a team member who doesnt like it is also just playing his character.
....

Sure. So?
I've played lots of rogues who were as you describe. I've also played 2 of my rogues that had different characters and did steal. But of course you're playing a character. Of course some would be upset. I see story. Friends become enemies, get drunk, fight bad guys, friends again ... lol.

[KillianHawkeye]

Of course some would be upset. I see story. Friends become enemies, get drunk, fight bad guys, friends again ... lol.

That's fine, but this is the sort of story that won't work out without having all of the involved players on board with it. Don't expect to turn your friends into enemies, get drunk, and become friends again without their cooperation.

Please realize that many things that make for a good story often cause problems in a game, and that conflict between characters can easily escalate into conflict between players if not handled delicately.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even when I play an Evil character in a Mostly Good party, I still give him reasons why it's better to be a trusted member of the team.

For instance, they make great meatshields against the people I ticked off before joining the party, and (at least looking like I'm) putting my life on the line for them in return for the same is a definite positive on my adventuring résumé.

The magical IRS is terrifying.

[satorian]

You're in the right hobby for empathetic weirdos. Pretty sure most missteps would be forgiven, and merely asking questions isn't even a misstep. Heck, it keeps the first page moving as fewer and fewer people stop by the 3.5 forum.

As to rogues, if they "play their character," just play yours. I've had have-a-beer-and-laugh-it-off characters. But I've also had one-warning-before-slitting-the-thief's-throat-in-the-night characters, and no-warning-disintegrate-gust-of-wind characters. It's the thief's choice to take the risk that his party members aren't the latter two.

[Elkad]

Stealing from party members is CvC, just like stabbing them in the back. (Character vs Character - It's not PvP until the players get up from the table and throw down in the driveway).

No different.

I happen to think it's acceptable (and preferred) play, so if the table agrees, I'm all for it. Just don't be mad when the party catches your character and executes him.

Every time this discussion comes back around I wonder what the restrictive tables do? If I throw a fireball and singe the fighter to kill the 20 orcs surrounding him, is that allowed? What if my damage dice are hot and he fails his save so it actually kills him? Do those tables undo the whole action?

I've died due to party action many times. Some deliberate. Some accidental (bad luck). In one case, they didn't even know I was in the area of effect and didn't even find my body - I just disappeared.
I've killed party members as well. In one case the two party paladins had a philosophical disagreement about the disposition of prisoners, and the fight went to the death.

[King of Nowhere]

The giantitp forum will answer any question brought to it.
And the answers are generally
1) talk to the other players
2) quit the group
3) play a druid

[GrayDeath]

Thirding the "join an online game" advice.

Due to the recent problems its gotten as far that I have only one real group left, and that is one where we can at best play once every 2 weeks (even though we actually prepped for a "if it doesnt work play this" Group,. it somehow didnt work as intended), so ...yeah.

And as for asking too many questions: Usually, this is only an issue if youa sk qquestions that are self evidently in the rules multiple times (Giantitp tends to be a bit higher on the knowledge than the social skills^^) or if they are complete non sequetur, ergo the potentail answering people have no idea what it actually is you are asking.

Otherwise, just keep em coming. Though ideally dont open a new thread for every single question. ^^

[ngilop]

I would like to apologize for asking to many questions. I hate to admit it but that's one of the reason I no long get to play. That and the fact that I called out the rogue for stealing from the party. Seems I was the only one with it being a problem. "He's just playing his character." just doesn't cut it for me. So it's been a few years since I've looked at a book. We played 3.5 so that's what I have books for. I just don't know a lot of stuff. I guess if I read EVERYTHING I might get a better idea. But I'm not the best reader and have problems with it. Another thing I hate to admit is that I am socially considered "a little slow" which doesn't help either. I know in the past I've made mention of having a group to play in but that was a lie. As I said it's been a few years. I would love to get back into it but with no group there's no play. Right now I have just been trying to come up with ideas to maybe start my own group. Don't know if I could get any players down at one of the local gaming stores but there's usually people looking. I barely go out and it is almost never to one of them so that also doesn't help. I'm a little hobbit hiding in my hole in the basement I pay rent for. I enjoy making things up for the game so I ask a lot of questions. These forums is my DM right now. So without dragging this on more I just want to apologize for asking to many questions.

My props to you good sir. It is not easy and indeed requires a not insignificant amount of courage (even behind the wall of anonymity the internet gives you) to put such forth in public record. I cannot know what drove you to post this, or the why. I can give you my support

I understand that what I am about to say might get me in trouble, but I really don't care because what right is what's right.

Never apologize for asking questions, gaining an increase of your own knowledge is a good thing, admirable even, and one can never really reach a point where their thirst for knowledge, truth, and/or clarification is too much.

I know society is backwards on that, and it seems truth and knowledge is the enemy these days as that has been mostly put as an optional thing to want in life.

[Drelua]

As everyone else has said, asking questions is what this forums for. I haven't been on here much for a couple years, just came back the other day and I can already tell the traffic's way down from when I was on here more often, so it's good that someone's keeping the conversation going. It's a tough time for everyone right now, especially for people who really depend on this hobby to keep them going. I haven't really had a game in 6 months, and I used to have one almost every week. It's hard. But remember that no game is better than a bad game. If I had a game go like half my games in high school did, I'd get up and leave and never come back. Trying to find an online game, as many others have suggested, would be a good idea, just don't be afraid to be a little picky. If other characters were stealing from mine and acting like I was doing something wrong by responding to it, I'd pack up and go that second.


Every time this discussion comes back around I wonder what the restrictive tables do? If I throw a fireball and singe the fighter to kill the 20 orcs surrounding him, is that allowed? What if my damage dice are hot and he fails his save so it actually kills him? Do those tables undo the whole action?

I've died due to party action many times. Some deliberate. Some accidental (bad luck). In one case, they didn't even know I was in the area of effect and didn't even find my body - I just disappeared.
I've killed party members as well. In one case the two party paladins had a philosophical disagreement about the disposition of prisoners, and the fight went to the death.

In PFS, you need another players permission to include them in an AoE, or do anything else that directly harms their character. Probably the best approach for open play, when you're often playing with strangers you don't want one bad group to kill a character. Coming back from the dead is expensive when reincarnate's off the table. For a more long term group, just have a discussion about it and make sure you know everyone's comfortable with it. I usually go with something similar to the PFS rule. But also, I would have to be really sure my friend was in trouble and that fireballing them was helpful before I'd even consider doing that, so depending on your character it might be weird to casually burn your friend. I had a second degree burn once, it's a real bad time.

[Psyren]

That and the fact that I called out the rogue for stealing from the party. Seems I was the only one with it being a problem. "He's just playing his character." just doesn't cut it for me.

I'm not aware of the previous discussion, but this shouldn't cut it for anyone. A character concept is not an excuse to ruin other people's fun, so you're right to call it out.

[Tvtyrant]

Sure. So?
I've played lots of rogues who were as you describe. I've also played 2 of my rogues that had different characters and did steal. But of course you're playing a character. Of course some would be upset. I see story. Friends become enemies, get drunk, fight bad guys, friends again ... lol.

I have a job and a family to put up with, I don't need someone putting a burden on my game time by enjoying themselves at my expense. It also makes a good story it someone betrays the party and helps the BBEG perform a TPK, that doesn't give someone an excuse to do it to the rest of the party.

D&D is a cooperative game, you agree on the terms of the group when you join. If the group did not specify they allowed party theft or PvP before the game they are off the table, because the players did not have a chance to disagree.

[bean illus]

I have a job and a family to put up with, I don't need someone putting a burden on my game time by enjoying themselves at my expense. It also makes a good story it someone betrays the party and helps the BBEG perform a TPK, that doesn't give someone an excuse to do it to the rest of the party.

Betraying the party, and helping the BBEG TPK the party does not make a good story. There is no character development in a TPK. Those two things are in no way equivalent.



D&D is a cooperative game, you agree on the terms of the group when you join. If the group did not specify they allowed party theft or PvP before the game they are off the table, because the players did not have a chance to disagree.

I said that in my first serious response to this thread. Perhaps some of you missed it. But some people are so adamant that they seem to be implying they would immediately kill any rogue who lifted a copper.

I don't know the circumstances in the experience of the OP. Did the rogue pocket a potion while scouting? Or was he swiping critical gear out of party members backpacks while they slept and then selling it later? Was it level 1 - 2, and the party wasn't really partnered yet? Or were they contracted as a team to perform a specific goal?

These things make a difference to story development, as does whether the DM allows it in the campaign.

[Jay R]

"Agreed -- you are just playing your character, by having him steal from mine. I am just playing my character correctly, by having him leave a party she cannot trust. Good-bye everybody. Have a fun game. If you ever want to play a game of characters who don't betray each other, give me a call."

Drop mike. Leave room.

[_RAGNAR_]

Sure. So?
I've played lots of rogues who were as you describe. I've also played 2 of my rogues that had different characters and did steal. But of course you're playing a character. Of course some would be upset. I see story. Friends become enemies, get drunk, fight bad guys, friends again ... lol.

I never suggested the thief couldn't steal from the party. I suggested any other character can choose to do something to the rogue. If I caught a party member stealing from me I would probably start with talking but subdual damage wouldnt be off the table nor would escalating. I would attempt to make it clear both in character and as a player its not going to fly.

No party member is required to put up with behavior from other party members they dont approve of. It isnt fun to me to have my possessions stolen IRL or in game play. Ruin my fun and I will attempt to pay you back equally to include hanging you out to dry in an encounter. Maybe when the player rerolls his next character he may have a new view of how to conduct himself.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't think anyone is saying a thief CAN'T steal from the party, just that they SHOULDN'T do so.

[Elkad]

In PFS, you need another players permission to include them in an AoE, or do anything else that directly harms their character. Probably the best approach for open play, when you're often playing with strangers you don't want one bad group to kill a character. Coming back from the dead is expensive when reincarnate's off the table. For a more long term group, just have a discussion about it and make sure you know everyone's comfortable with it. I usually go with something similar to the PFS rule. But also, I would have to be really sure my friend was in trouble and that fireballing them was helpful before I'd even consider doing that, so depending on your character it might be weird to casually burn your friend. I had a second degree burn once, it's a real bad time.

So you have your PvP by omission instead. Let the monsters get flank bonuses. Fail to heal the dying guy. And a thousand other options. Most of which I consider nastier than just flat picking a fight with them.
Not sure how PFS handles looting within the party anyway. If I die, does the party get my stuff? Can they at least use my stuff until they get out of the dungeon?

When one of my thieves died by accident, he was invisible. The party didn't even know he was in the area of effect. (no not even meta, my token wasn't on the board - I was passing notes to tell the GM which hex I'd moved to (and my route if relevant)). So they tossed a couple AoEs at the casters in the back of the badguys - the same casters I was maneuvering to backstab, and they toasted me when I failed both saves (plus didn't do much to their actual targets). That's the one where they failed to recover my body even. For all they knew, I just hid/ran when the fight started.

In another game, a party member was making a serious tactical error. One that was likely to get us all killed. I solved it in-character, by dominating them.
After the session I explained why I did it to the player.

We've had the D&D version of the joke about the 2 hikers and the bear more times than I can count. "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you."

[Drelua]

So you have your PvP by omission instead. Let the monsters get flank bonuses. Fail to heal the dying guy. And a thousand other options. Most of which I consider nastier than just flat picking a fight with them.
PvP by omission? That's not a thing. If you think it's worth including them in your fireball, tell them the DC and tell them why. Most people will agree if you have a good reason. PvP does not include making bad tactical decisions.

Not sure how PFS handles looting within the party anyway. If I die, does the party get my stuff? Can they at least use my stuff until they get out of the dungeon?
They do get to keep your stuff for the duration of the scenario, then it gets returned so you can get raised. If you have the money, which you can sell your stuff to gather. I did have one game where I was playing as the pregen paladin, she died, and sold all her stuff to get brought back. Then my character got credit, with the full gold reward because the pregen was alive at the end of it. Sort of.


When one of my thieves died by accident, he was invisible. The party didn't even know he was in the area of effect. (no not even meta, my token wasn't on the board - I was passing notes to tell the GM which hex I'd moved to (and my route if relevant)). So they tossed a couple AoEs at the casters in the back of the badguys - the same casters I was maneuvering to backstab, and they toasted me when I failed both saves (plus didn't do much to their actual targets). That's the one where they failed to recover my body even. For all they knew, I just hid/ran when the fight started.
I'm not actually sure how that would be handled in PFS, probably you'd tell them they were about to hit a party member and ask them both if that was okay. Again, I'd handle things differently in a home game, but when it can be a group of complete strangers I think it's best to err on the side of caution. Even if none of the players are bad players exactly, different people are going to have different expectations and death by PvP should be handled carefully.

In another game, a party member was making a serious tactical error. One that was likely to get us all killed. I solved it in-character, by dominating them.
After the session I explained why I did it to the player.
That can be fine if your groups fine with it. Must have been a really bad idea he had for it to be the best use of your turn to dominate them. If I were playing a dumb character in PFS that I couldn't see doing the smart thing, I would absolutely give the wizard permission to dominate. That's assuming I know I have a bad idea OoC, which is not always the case of course.

We've had the D&D version of the joke about the 2 hikers and the bear more times than I can count. "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you."

Well that's just good sense. Or is running away faster than your friends what you'd call PvP by omission?

[Elkad]

PvP by omission? That's not a thing. If you think it's worth including them in your fireball, tell them the DC and tell them why. Most people will agree if you have a good reason. PvP does not include making bad tactical decisions.

Not making bad decisions out of ignorance or recklessness. Deliberately making decisions that are crafted to harm the party (probably just a specific member of it). Spiteful play. Throwing the fight.
I cast obscuring mist at a melee where the enemy all has blindfighting. If I do it in error, that's one thing. If I do it on purpose and pretend it's an error because I want the barbarian dead, that's something else entirely.


Well that's just good sense. Or is running away faster than your friends what you'd call PvP by omission?

Depends if I carefully moved before casting to make him an invalid target for Haste or not.