Using concealment to hide against creatures with low-light vision

[Max Caysey]

So, basically, I'm in a house, only moonlight shines in throught the windows and the DM says the rooms are lit enough to be considered shadowy illumination. I say I hide and move silent to the best of my abilities...

While I'm in the house a werewolf lord patrols the house and instantly sees me...

Is my DM correct, that I loose concealment in shadowy illumination, and thus the ability to hide, against creatures with low-light vision???

Cheers!

[Venger]

Ignoring Concealment
Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision. Characters with low-light vision can see clearly for a greater distance with the same light source than other characters.


Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

Yeah, he could see you if you didn't have cover.

[Max Caysey]

Yeah, he could see you if you didn't have cover.

Arrgh... damn!

Ok, another question: Is the following assertion correct?

If I'm invisible, I have concealment, and I can then hide. Since the rules do not differentiate between types of concealment as in it does not matter if its from shadowy illumination, darkness or invisibility, I effectively gain hide in plain sight. Invisibility grants +20 or +40 to hide. That means to see me, the DC is not 20 as per "to notice an invisible creature" but my hide check, including the +20/+40 from being invisible, because I'm not just invisible I'm hiding too. But, because I continuously have concealment from invisibility - everywhere - its effectively like I was walking in shadowy illumination or darkness the whole time...

The reason for this long winded question is because the "Rules of the Game" archive article on invisibility and hiding (Here not There, Part 2) says that while "Invisibility gives you total concealment, spotting something invisible carries its own Spot DCs and you can't make yourself harder to see without a little extra help from your surroundings" (which to me sounds like cover). But if I understand correctly, that's not true at all. All you need to hide is concealment, and since invisibility grants concealment, being invisible meaning you can hide (with a hefty +20/+40 to hide I might add) end of story. So why does this article seem to suggest, that concealment when gained from invisibility is no longer enough to hide, or at least does not function? Is it just me, or is there some sort of disconnect/dysfunction between concealment allowing for a hide check and noticing an invisible creature...

I kind of get the feeling that Skip dropped the ball on this one, but obviously I could be mistaken! What is the general consensus on how the interaction of invisibility and hide function?

Cheers!

[Venger]

Ok, another question: Is the following assertion correct?

If I'm invisible, I have concealment, and I can then hide. Since the rules do not differentiate between types of concealment as in it does not matter if its from shadowy illumination, darkness or invisibility, I effectively gain hide in plain sight. Invisibility grants +20 or +40 to hide. That means to see me, the DC is not 20 as per "to notice an invisible creature" but my hide check, including the +20/+40 from being invisible, because I'm not just invisible I'm hiding too. But, because I continuously have concealment from invisibility - everywhere - its effectively like I was walking in shadowy illumination or darkness the whole time...
Yes.

The dc 20 spot check to see an invisible creature is for one who is not actively hiding. As you say, while hiding, you add 20 to your hide check from invis, 40 if you're standing still. It's like you've got concealment, because creatures with llv/darkvision cannot see you due to these abilities.


The reason for this long winded question is because the "Rules of the Game" archive article on invisibility and hiding (Here not There, Part 2) says that while "Invisibility gives you total concealment, spotting something invisible carries its own Spot DCs and you can't make yourself harder to see without a little extra help from your surroundings" (which to me sounds like cover). But if I understand correctly, that's not true at all. All you need to hide is concealment, and since invisibility grants concealment, being invisible meaning you can hide (with a hefty +20/+40 to hide I might add) end of story. So why does this article seem to suggest, that concealment when gained from invisibility is no longer enough to hide, or at least does not function? Is it just me, or is there some sort of disconnect/dysfunction between concealment allowing for a hide check and noticing an invisible creature...
Never consult "rules of the game" articles for anything. They are always wrong because skip does not understand how to play dnd. No consensus needed, your reading is correct. Without hips which may obviate one or both, you can hide when you have cover or concealment, invis provides concealment, so you can hide.

[Max Caysey]

Yes.

The dc 20 spot check to see an invisible creature is for one who is not actively hiding. As you say, while hiding, you add 20 to your hide check from invis, 40 if you're standing still. It's like you've got concealment, because creatures with llv/darkvision cannot see you due to these abilities.


Never consult "rules of the game" articles for anything. They are always wrong because skip does not understand how to play dnd. No consensus needed, your reading is correct. Without hips which may obviate one or both, you can hide when you have cover or concealment, invis provides concealment, so you can hide.

Ahh... cool I thought as much... I have read a quite a few of these articles and a lot of it seems good, but as you say, there are times when it just seems wrong. I'm glad this is one of those times! :smallsmile:

[KillianHawkeye]

As Venger notes, the flat DC 20 to spot an invisible creature and the +20 bonus to hide when you're invisible are essentially the same bonus. The flat DC 20 just assumes a creature that's not doing anything extra to hide his position, because there's still a difference between sneaking around when invisible and brazenly walking around while invisible.