Help With Problem Player

[Samwich]

At the start of this college semester, a couple of my suite mates invited me to join a new DND game they were starting. This group knows each other from outside school, and they just started playing D&D a month or two ago.

At the first session, I saw a problem crop up. One of the players had decided to homebrew his own character class for the game (I will refer to him as Homebrew for this post). Homebrew’s character swiftly eclipsed everyone else in the party in terms of both damage and durability. Every boss fight so far has ended in less than a round, with Homebrew killing the boss in a single strike. Homebrew also mocks other players at the table for not being able to do as much damage as him, on account of everybody else playing by the rules as written.

A further issue this creates is that the DM awards xp based on merit. Whoever contributes the most to a fight gets the most xp, and players who don’t have a hand in victory get nothing. This is creating a steadily increasing level imbalance on top of the existing power imbalance, since Homebrew receives nearly all the xp for defeating bosses.

At one game, I finally told him that he might want to consider nerfing his character. Homebrew became extremely defensive, arguing that there was nothing wrong with his character because he had based everything off of powers that other classes possess.
For reference, some of his powers include:

-A constitution based spellcasting ability, giving him the most hit points in the party without having to suffer any penalties to his spellcasting

- A basic attack that allows 2 separate attacks for a total of 4d6 ranged damage that also automatically paralyzes any enemy it hits

- Literally Fireball by the time he was 3rd level, made more powerful by the fact that paralyzed enemies get no Dex saving throw and he can cast it on the same turn as his basic attack

The DM and the other players agreed with me that Homebrew’s character was overpowered, but he continued to protest that it was fair and none of them pressed the issue. I dropped it as well, not wanting to alienate myself from the group.

I am not sure what to do now. I know from experience that in situations like this, the best course of action is to speak to the problem player and address your concerns. However, Homebrew has dismissed all concerns directed towards his character, and nobody else in the group seems to want to do anything about it. I can tell that the other players are not having fun. The DM frequently remarks how upset she is about the power imbalance but refuses to do anything about it, and several players have stopped paying attention to the game on account of how unnecessary we all are to any of the action.

So talking hasn’t worked, and kicking Homebrew out of the group is out of the question. Those are the two most common answers to problem players I have ever seen. Does anyone have any advice for me?

[SiCK_Boy]

Talk to the DM. She’s the one with the authority to force homebrew to change both his character and, to a degree, his behavior.

If the DM refuses to take your side on this issue, consider leaving the group.

Maybe offer to DM a short campaign / one shot for the group, using some by-the-book pregens; this could let everyone (including homebrew) see if they can enjoy the game in a different context. Maybe homebrew would even realize he doesn’t need to be overpowered to enjoy himself!

[qube]

As player, in the end theres not much you "can" do, obviously.

As homebrewer myself, i typically ask 'what class is this balanced against' (is it a crowdconroller? Ok, build and equal lvl wizard and see hoe they compare). If its a balanced class, a bit of optimizing should allow to build a better wizard. If the homebrew class is still stronger, then this class isn't balanced
If Homebrewer claims its optimized, ask if he can do that, and ask to see the numbers.

My advice for the DM? Ask her to restart the campaign, or start another one, with official material only (she woundn't even have to assign Blames. Just 'the campaign isn't how I like it to go, let me restart'). also 2 tips:

- Class balancing isn't easy: professionals have had months and months of time, and still ended up with beastmaster end 4elements monk. I am always very weary about homebrew stuff. (And again, i am a homebrewer myself!)

- the DM shouldn't just dismiss core ideaal: DnD had equal XP for a reason. Her system Will only make strong players stronger and Weaker players, who are already frustated they can't do enough, lag behind even more.

If she wants people to be more engaged, don't punish those who weren't (even if its by rewarding those who were);

Because in effect, she got the Opposite of what she wanted: Homebrewer gets rewarded, while he is the one preventing othets to engage.

[Zhorn]

Unfortunately you cannot dictate the behaviours of other at the table. Ok, not 'unfortunately' because it can also be a good thing that problem players cannot dictate the behaviour of others at the table.
Generally the only thing you have control over is which table you willingly play at.
If talking doesn't work, and being passive won't improve things for you, action is your only real choice.
Next time you have an opportunity to talk, thank everyone they their time and the invite, acknowledge the things you had fun with, a politely inform them that this aspect of the game is not enjoyable for yourself. Say you are interested in a new game without 'that' in it when that start up.

Key points to repeat:
Don't yell/accuse/blame. Calmly say this part is something you are not enjoying.
You're not telling them to stop it in the current game. Ultimatums have the "it's me or them" forcing people to take sides, and that is NOT the goal.
Don't take any bait to be drawn into a personal argument, "You like what you like, I'm not stopping you, I'm just choosing to not be a part of it" remain civil and polite, no matter what the response is on the other end.
Compliment EVERYONE (including the problem player) on something they were doing you enjoyed. You want to be invited back, and people like folks who like them.
Remain social with those involved.

No one likes to be the one to walk away, but some tables won't address a problem seriously until it is causing real problems.
Having a playstyle that drives people out of the game will be taken as a more serious problem than just having one player being overpowered but everyone sticks around.

[Greywander]

-A constitution based spellcasting ability, giving him the most hit points in the party without having to suffer any penalties to his spellcasting
A CON caster would work fine as long as the class was designed around it. For example, if they spent HP to cast spells, or were otherwise designed as a tank, or had minor nerfs compared to other casters that balanced out their SADness. CON casting is a slight upgrade over other ability scores, as you get more HP and better concentration saves, but I don't think it's game breaking.


- A basic attack that allows 2 separate attacks for a total of 4d6 ranged damage that also automatically paralyzes any enemy it hits
4d6 damage isn't anything to write home about; in fact, that's cantrip damage (depends on what level you are, though). The bigger problem is the paralyzation, especially on a ranged attack. I've worked off and on making a homebrew undead race, and since the earliest iterations I had given the skeletons a paralyzing touch, borrowing it from the lich. I've only recently considered scrapping it or moving it to a feat, but even as it was you (a) needed to be in melee range, (b) needed to hit with an attack roll (which dealt some cold damage), and (c) they had to fail a CON save, which they could repeat every round.

Paralyzation is strong, so strong that I've been forced to consider a nerf to my skeleton's paralyzing touch several times. Making it at-will in the first place is pretty strong, but also allowing it from range, and on two targets per turn is pretty crazy.


- Literally Fireball by the time he was 3rd level, made more powerful by the fact that paralyzed enemies get no Dex saving throw and he can cast it on the same turn as his basic attack
Fireball is already unusually strong for a 3rd level spell, enough so that it's still worth casting against a single target when you need to deal some damage. You didn't tell us if this is another at-will ability or if it has a resource cost to it. If the player is open to tweaking their character (sounds like they're not, though), I'd look at the Sun Soul monk for an idea of how to do an at-will Fireball-like ability. It's definitely workable, but it definitely needs to be reduced in power or have a comparable resource cost, and probably both if you're going to allow them to attack on the same turn.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more this homebrew sounds like a souped up Sun Soul. Two attacks (Extra Attack) that can paralyze (Stunning Strike), followed by a bonus action AoE (Searing Arc Strike). If you want a more Fireball-like AoE, but not as a bonus action, then Searing Sunburst has you covered. You even get ranged attacks with Radiant Sun Bolt, although you can't Stunning Strike with them.


So talking hasn’t worked, and kicking Homebrew out of the group is out of the question. Those are the two most common answers to problem players I have ever seen. Does anyone have any advice for me?
Two options that I can think of are (a) give an ultimatum to the DM, either they nerf that player's character, or you walk away, or (b) the entire rest of the table rerolls using whatever homebrew they can find. I mean, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If you all roll up homebrew characters that are just as powerful as this problem player's, then it should at least close the power gap.

It kind of sounds like this problem player might have something on the DM. From your account, it seems like they might have bullied the DM into allowing their homebrew, and the DM doesn't want to nerf or ban the homebrew even though they don't like it. I could be jumping to conclusions, but it might be an abusive friendship, in which case the only real solutions are to either convince the DM to kick the player (and, for their own benefit, not just from D&D, but from their friend circle) or find a new table.

[ff7hero]

I'm curious why giving homebrew the boot is out of the question.

You've tried talking to them and they've made it clear that:
A) No one else having fun matters as long as they are,
-and possibly-
B) their fun is dependent on dominating the play time.

A is just a typical toxic trait amplified by the DM apparently just letting this all play out. If B is also true, no amount of talking or tweaking will help with this. If other players think Homebrew is their friend, they're either wrong or have a bizarre idea of what friendship means.

As much as Homebrew's actions have my hackles up, I must say that, as always, the DM is responsible for everything that's happened. It's not hard to just not allow homebrew in a game you've never run before. The XP system they're using also encourages the type of behavior Homebrew is displaying. It also creates a nasty feedback loop with Homebrew dominating encounters, leveling faster, and having an easier time dominating encounters.

DMs who are smart and experienced will tweak the rules. They understand how the rules work and what a change will mean for how the game is played. New DMs should just play with the rules in the book.

[Agthor]

You can hembrew yourself. Take spell mastery with the wish spell. Casting wish at will surely get you the most experience points.

[Chugger]

I've had to leave many campaigns over the decades - it's normal. Early on I felt I had to endure the abuse, but I learned that if I'm in a city - and I usually am - there are a lot of tables to find, a lot of games, a lot of DMs, a lot of players. Many of them are not a good fit for me, and it's important that I realize this asap and leave asap if I'm going to be miserable at this new table. I might also make them miserable, too - if I feel like I'm stuck in a game but I'm not having fun and the DM's girlfriend is being favored too much or w/e, it's hard for me not to become passive-aggressive - and that's not fun for me - it's not fun for the others.

Leaving a game sends a message, too. Sometimes they go "well, what the eff is _his_ problem???" and do not learn anything. Other times, especially if others at the table felt you were contributing a lot but you leave, you make an impact - you force them to address problems they had that had been festering for months. A few times I left a game, then other players who were unhappy realized they could, too - and the game disintegrated, which in a way is sad - but if those other guys weren't having fun why suffer?

Learn what your "red warning flag issues" are. At this point, if I encounter a DM who says "Oh yeah 5e isn't very realistic, so I've added a bunch of homebrew rules to improve the realism," that's a big red flag for me - I'm likely already headed for the door. I think DnD should very much not be a reality emulator and efforts to "improve" it to make it "more realistic" almost always just make it incredibly tedious. When I can tell the game is too tight (no rewards ever, magic is silly rare, you battle for weeks to earn 3 copper pieces) or too loose (too easy, too much reward), I'm gone. If the DM's girlfriend or w/e is getting preferential treatment, I'm gone. There are other red flags for me. Anyway, learn what yours are and keep them in mind as you come upon new gaming opportunities - and maybe I sound like I'm saying to be really harsh - maybe give new people a chance even if you're getting some bad vibes (sometimes I'm wrong about things) - but just stay eyes-open and be ready to bail before you get too invested.

[Unoriginal]

At the start of this college semester, a couple of my suite mates invited me to join a new DND game they were starting. This group knows each other from outside school, and they just started playing D&D a month or two ago.

At the first session, I saw a problem crop up. One of the players had decided to homebrew his own character class for the game (I will refer to him as Homebrew for this post). Homebrew’s character swiftly eclipsed everyone else in the party in terms of both damage and durability. Every boss fight so far has ended in less than a round, with Homebrew killing the boss in a single strike. Homebrew also mocks other players at the table for not being able to do as much damage as him, on account of everybody else playing by the rules as written.

A further issue this creates is that the DM awards xp based on merit. Whoever contributes the most to a fight gets the most xp, and players who don’t have a hand in victory get nothing. This is creating a steadily increasing level imbalance on top of the existing power imbalance, since Homebrew receives nearly all the xp for defeating bosses.

At one game, I finally told him that he might want to consider nerfing his character. Homebrew became extremely defensive, arguing that there was nothing wrong with his character because he had based everything off of powers that other classes possess.
For reference, some of his powers include:

-A constitution based spellcasting ability, giving him the most hit points in the party without having to suffer any penalties to his spellcasting

- A basic attack that allows 2 separate attacks for a total of 4d6 ranged damage that also automatically paralyzes any enemy it hits

- Literally Fireball by the time he was 3rd level, made more powerful by the fact that paralyzed enemies get no Dex saving throw and he can cast it on the same turn as his basic attack

The DM and the other players agreed with me that Homebrew’s character was overpowered, but he continued to protest that it was fair and none of them pressed the issue. I dropped it as well, not wanting to alienate myself from the group.

I am not sure what to do now. I know from experience that in situations like this, the best course of action is to speak to the problem player and address your concerns. However, Homebrew has dismissed all concerns directed towards his character, and nobody else in the group seems to want to do anything about it. I can tell that the other players are not having fun. The DM frequently remarks how upset she is about the power imbalance but refuses to do anything about it, and several players have stopped paying attention to the game on account of how unnecessary we all are to any of the action.

So talking hasn’t worked, and kicking Homebrew out of the group is out of the question. Those are the two most common answers to problem players I have ever seen. Does anyone have any advice for me?

A group that is enabling jerk behavior is a jerk group.


You should go to one last session and tell them you won't play in any group where Homebrew is in, and remind them all that they're all miserable because of him. If they don't kick him out then leave, and do not give that group another chance (individuals who also leave it are another matter).

You may not want to alienate the group, but what's the alternative to quitting? Keep playing sessions you don't like with a DM who is upset about what she DMs and players who dislike the sessions so much they prefer not paying attention? No game is better than bad game, and you can find other groups.

Homebrew may be the bigger jerk here, but the DM has failed you and the group by not already taking active steps to address the problem.

[Aett_Thorn]

This sounds more like a DM problem to me. Allowing a homebrew character that is that OP, awarding XP on merit in a team based game (and not seeing how it is being affected by the homebrew character's OPness), and generally not identifying that there are problems at the table based on what has already happened. I would definitely talk to the DM as the next step. Clearly explain the problems, and why you believe that these issues are occurring.

[KorvinStarmast]

Talk to the DM. She’s the one with the authority to force homebrew to change both his character and, to a degree, his behavior. I'd talk to her about how she awards XP. That's a huge problem. it incentivizes the Homebrew jerk.

If the DM refuses to take your side on this issue, consider leaving the group. Walk if DM won't change. The jerkness is being enabled.

Maybe offer to DM a short campaign / one shot for the group, using some by-the-book pregens; this could let everyone (including homebrew) see if they can enjoy the game in a different context.
A fantastic idea before choosing to leave the group.

[zinycor]

As others have said, you probably should politely leave the group.

No sense on playing a game you don't enjoy.

If posible form a new group with the players that share your corcerns.

[cutlery]

If they are certain it is balanced, challenge them to toss it up on r/unearthedarcana or the homebrew subforum here for critique.

[ThatoneGuy84]

This sounds like a multi-tier problem, much more then an issue with your 1 player (thou hes also an issue)

Dealing with the player : 1 you tried. Seemed he wanted to defend his position, he can do that. But his position is wrong (point out what's wrong with it, come in with ammo) like "how have you had fireball since 3rd level, that requires a charactor level of 5 to achieve with any other character"
"How can you stun without a DC or melee att, that isnt an option for any class" ect ect. He clearly didnt "take these from classes".
Explain to him that some classes have "dead levels" or "weak ability levels" because they do, expand the discussion. It's never hurt a table to be honest and just say "it's really not fun for me playing with your homebrew charactor, how does everyone else feel?"

Dealing with the DM : either shes a pushover and let's homebrew do what he wants, which should make it easy to get the group to sway her, or they have some other personal relationship and that's a whole problem you will never be able to deal with.
If you have already suggested to the DM you dont enjoy this homebrew and they dont want to make the change, consider your options.
1 - Homebrew something even more ridiculas, kill his charactor with your perfect homebrew counter to whatever he is playing, then retire your charactor. Why cause you can. LOL. Or simply make a class you can make fun. Or just sit there doing nothing with the other uninterested players, say thinks like "sorry what was that?" When the DM speaks while looking at your phone typing on these forums, pay very little attention to the campaign but often ask them to repeat themselves. They will get your -passive agressive- point eventually.
Get the rest of the players on your side, "split the group" let him go off on his own. Or leave him on the quest, see if your DM railroads you guys going to do something appropriately fun without homebrew.

Run your own campaign for your friends that only uses legal content.

[Edea]

At the start of this college semester, a couple of my suite mates invited me to join a new DND game they were starting. This group knows each other from outside school, and they just started playing D&D a month or two ago.
[...]
The DM frequently remarks how upset she is about the power imbalance but refuses to do anything about it, and several players have stopped paying attention to the game on account of how unnecessary we all are to any of the action

...this is 100% a DM problem. Walk; this has red flags aaaaaall over it if she's not telling him to get bent by this point.

This guy her boyfriend or something? It sounds like he'd be able to make her life miserable if she boots his ass, because otherwise there's just no reason to not do so.

[Keravath]

Fundamentally this is a situation that the DM has to solve. Perhaps you and the other players should have a chat with the DM, explain how you aren't having as much fun as you could and maybe politely suggest a couple of changes.

1) Since the DM puts the challenges on the table for the group to solve and all the players contribute to the planning and execution. Any XP should be split evenly between all the characters. Does the DM only give XP for hits? What happens if a character uses a hold person spell that does no damage but lets everyone else get crits, do they get no XP? Everyone is there, everyone is contributing something, everyone should get the same XP. Furthermore, I'd suggest using milestones instead of XP anyway since it is a lot easier and the campaign will advance at the rate the DM wants it to.

2) Instead of talking to the problem player with a Homebrew class, see if you can get the DM to restart (as Qube suggested) using only published sources for all the characters. Don't attack the player with the homebrew character class but instead say that by using only the published sources then everyone starts on the same footing. Some people are new to the game, others aren't, by using published sources (not UA since I suspect Homebrew would likely jump on something from there if changing their character) it makes it easier for the DM to run and easier for the players to create characters. The DM could just say that the game isn't working out the way they would like and that they'd like to try just the game as written first before trying out some of the more exotic material.

[Frogreaver]

I offer new solution. If trouble is class imbalance then ask to homebrew some abilities for your character and bring yours up to the other guys characters power. Encourage the other players to do the same. The DM can always upscale the challenges. Probably will be fun for everyone for a bit but eventually the rocket taginess of it will lead to a TPK. By that time the DM should be capable of either calling for a no homebrew game or everyone had such a blast they want to run it like that again.

[Jamesps]

Honestly, if I were in your shoes I'd give up and let other people solve the problem. Treat it as a social game, do whatever you want, and pay no attention whatsoever to strategy or optimization, or even being effective. The game now is to have as much fun as possible with what you have available. Draw out the role playing encounters, do random whatever during combat, and don't worry about dieing.

Personally I'd just let the "problem player" handle combat by themselves and focus on the rest of the game. Other players may eventually follow suit, and the GM may adapt, or may not. It's really on her to see that she's running an entire section of the game for one player's enjoyment.

[Necroanswer]

Assuming no other players are having fun except the problem player you should meet with the other players and see if you can get everyone to deliver an ultimatum as a group: boot the problem player or we all walk (or, because you indicated getting rid of the player was undesirable for unexplained reasons deliver the ultimatum as: replace problem player's character with something that follows the rules or we leave. Its better to get rid of the player because if he does stay he will probably just try to make everyone else as miserable as possible)

or just murder his character in his sleep

[KorvinStarmast]

or just murder his character in his sleep You may laugh, but back in the old days, that was occasionally resorted to. Those who got the message and wised up stayed with the group, those who did not get the message rather quickly were not in the gaming group.

But that's not necessarily gonna work with each social group.

It depends a lot on all of the "how we know each other in all things that are not this RPG" stuff.
And all of the players have to be in on it. If there's not a united front, then it's not even in the tool box.