Would this fix witchbolt?

[GalvanicFour64]

So witchbolt...not the best spell out there, CL1 aside I suppose.

But. I wanna ask you lot if this would fix it.

Long story short, my 3 additions are:
1) It’s both the initial and continual damage that scales instead of just the former.
2) The initial damage also stuns the opponent for just that 1 round, and then as long as the spell is still zapping him/her, movement is halved (as in difficult terrain)
3) Have range scale by either 5 or 10 feet per slot level above 1st

What do yall think?
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EDIT: Ok so after like 2 days of listening to what yall have to say (btw thank you all for the input, really appreciate it) and looking at other spells (especially spiritual weapon) I think I got it:
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Witch Bolt:

1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target, takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration whilst the target is in range, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The attack ends if you use your action to do something else. The attack also ends if you select a new target or if the target has total cover from you. You have advantage with Witchbolt attacks on previous Witchbolt targets from within the duration of the spell during the duration of the spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for every two slots above zero and the continual damage increases by 1d12 for every two slots above first.





I really think I got it here guys, I’ve tried taking what everyone’s been saying into account and came to the conclusion that simplicity really is the best route with fixing this spell (thanks to everyone that showed me that), what do yall think?




EDIT: Further improvements, will change if too powerful.

[micahaphone]

Does your 3rd point mean range?

[GalvanicFour64]

Does your 3rd point mean range?

Yeah sorry my bad, I mean range, I’ll clarify it now
Whadaya think tho?

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think your changes arguably make it OP for a first level spell. Stunned is a powerful condition.

[GalvanicFour64]

I think your changes arguably make it OP for a first level spell. Stunned is a powerful condition.

What if we got rid of the stun? Would that make it better?

[clash]

So witchbolt...not the best spell out there, CL1 aside I suppose.

But. I wanna ask you lot if this would fix it.

Long story short, my 3 additions are:
1) It’s both the initial and continual damage that scales instead of just the former.
2) The initial damage also stuns the opponent for just that 1 round, and then as long as the spell is still zapping him/her, movement is halved (as in difficult terrain)
3) Have range scale by either 5 or 10 feet per slot level above 1st

What do yall think?

1) Absolutely, no reason this shouldnt be the case.
2) I would remove stun and the movement slowing effect and instead change it so the spell doesnt end if it leaves the range. The target just has to be in range when you deal the damage. So on his turn he runs out to 45 ft away. On your turn if you come within 30ft of him he takes the damage automatically after the initial attack roll.
3) I dont like scaling range. I would rather increase to a flat 60ft range then have 30ft with scaling but with my above suggested change, I dont know if it is necessary.

[GalvanicFour64]

1) Absolutely, no reason this shouldnt be the case.
2) I would remove stun and the movement slowing effect and instead change it so the spell doesnt end if it leaves the range. The target just has to be in range when you deal the damage. So on his turn he runs out to 45 ft away. On your turn if you come within 30ft of him he takes the damage automatically after the initial attack roll.
3) I dont like scaling range. I would rather increase to a flat 60ft range then have 30ft with scaling but with my above suggested change, I dont know if it is necessary.

So you’re saying the damage should be automatic when in range but take an action outside of range? That could be cool yeah, nice.

Also the reason I wanted to half the movement (and stun but I think that maybe too OP I agree with the previous comment) is to give the “force lightning” feel of being in too much pain to move properly
After all it is a continuous stream of lightning so...

[Aett_Thorn]

So, I just wanted to bring in the current text for Witch Bolt so that everyone has access to it in this thread:



Concentration, 30' Range

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

Now, why do people tend to think that this is a bad spell? Well, a few reasons:

1) upfront damage is light, even for a first level spell. An average of 6.5 damage on a hit isn't that great. Now, the secondary damage is automatic after that, but we'll get to that. Compare that to other first level spells like Catapult (60' Range, 3d8 damage), Chromatic Orb (90' Range, 3d8 damage), and Ice Knife (60' Range, 1d10 [maybe]+2d6 damage). So, shorter range, and less damage.

2) No rider or anything

3) The automatic follow-up damage only works if a) the target hasn't moved out of range, b) the target hasn't moved behind anything during their turn, and c) if you spend your action to do anything else.

4) The scaling is poor. After level 5, the follow-up damage is worse than just trying to hit with a cantrip if you've got a 50% chance or greater to hit with the cantrip. And the upfront damage doesn't really get decent until you're using a 3rd or 4th level slot, at which point you're better off casting Fireball or something.


So how would I personally fix it? Here is what I would do, but I'm not entirely sure that this is balanced right either:

1) Make the upfront damage start at 2d12. It's still got a short range, so increasing the damage is balanced-ish.

2) Scaling damage goes up 1d12 for upfront damage per spell level, +1d12 every other spell level for follow-up damage.

3) Automatic follow-up damage is changed to a bonus action, but make it so that it counts as casting a bonus action spell. So the caster can still cast a cantrip as well as do the Witch Bolt damage.

[GalvanicFour64]

So, I just wanted to bring in the current text for Witch Bolt so that everyone has access to it in this thread:



Now, why do people tend to think that this is a bad spell? Well, a few reasons:

1) upfront damage is light, even for a first level spell. An average of 6.5 damage on a hit isn't that great. Now, the secondary damage is automatic after that, but we'll get to that. Compare that to other first level spells like Catapult (60' Range, 3d8 damage), Chromatic Orb (90' Range, 3d8 damage), and Ice Knife (60' Range, 1d10 [maybe]+2d6 damage). So, shorter range, and less damage.

2) No rider or anything

3) The automatic follow-up damage only works if a) the target hasn't moved out of range, b) the target hasn't moved behind anything during their turn, and c) if you spend your action to do anything else.

4) The scaling is poor. After level 5, the follow-up damage is worse than just trying to hit with a cantrip if you've got a 50% chance or greater to hit with the cantrip. And the upfront damage doesn't really get decent until you're using a 3rd or 4th level slot, at which point you're better off casting Fireball or something.


So how would I personally fix it? Here is what I would do, but I'm not entirely sure that this is balanced right either:

1) Make the upfront damage start at 2d12. It's still got a short range, so increasing the damage is balanced-ish.

2) Scaling damage goes up 1d12 for upfront damage per spell level, +1d12 every other spell level for follow-up damage.

3) Automatic follow-up damage is changed to a bonus action, but make it so that it counts as casting a bonus action spell. So the caster can still cast a cantrip as well as do the Witch Bolt damage.

Hmmmmm this could work too but what about the range?

[clash]

So you’re saying the damage should be automatic when in range but take an action outside of range? That could be cool yeah, nice.

Also the reason I wanted to half the movement (and stun but I think that maybe too OP I agree with the previous comment) is to give the “force lightning” feel of being in too much pain to move properly
After all it is a continuous stream of lightning so...

No, I wasnt clear. My suggestion is that short of failing concentration check, nothing breaks the affect. Not moving out of range or going behind cover etc.

But that being said you have to meet those conditions to deal the damage. So if the target moves out of range or ducks behind cover you have to follow them on your turn until they are in range again or not behind cover relative to you. Once you move within range and the conditions are met the damage is dealt automatically, with no action or check.

If you cant meet the conditions on a turn then no damage is dealt that turn but the spell effect and target stays so long as you keep concentrating. So if on the next turn you meet the conditions again you can deal the damage again.

I dont mind the half movement, but the above for me is the big change.

[Aett_Thorn]

Hmmmmm this could work too but what about the range?

Given all of my other changes, I think that the 30' range should stay as is. But I'm open to increasing it to 60'.

[DarknessEternal]

Just give it a to hit roll every round your concentrating and remove the need to hit the first time to keep going.

But I wouldn't change anything. Trying to fix every single spell is an exercise in futility.

[Bloodcloud]

IMO, scaling should increases on secondary damage, but mostly the spell shouldn't break because the target moved out of range, and you should be able to use that action as long as you are within range to use it when you do (and should be able to use your action onsomething else meanwhile). It would still be a bit low tier this way, but not trash like it is now. Maybe up the initial damage too, but it is much less necessary if the secondary is more certain.

[GalvanicFour64]

No, I wasnt clear. My suggestion is that short of failing concentration check, nothing breaks the affect. Not moving out of range or going behind cover etc.

But that being said you have to meet those conditions to deal the damage. So if the target moves out of range or ducks behind cover you have to follow them on your turn until they are in range again or not behind cover relative to you. Once you move within range and the conditions are met the damage is dealt automatically, with no action or check.

If you cant meet the conditions on a turn then no damage is dealt that turn but the spell effect and target stays so long as you keep concentrating. So if on the next turn you meet the conditions again you can deal the damage again.

I dont mind the half movement, but the above for me is the big change.

OHHHHHH Ok
Yeah I think that would be pretty cool too, so basically you’re given a chance to maintain it right?

[GalvanicFour64]

Just give it a to hit roll every round your concentrating and remove the need to hit the first time to keep going.

But I wouldn't change anything. Trying to fix every single spell is an exercise in futility.

So you’re saying to make it automatic instead of consuming an action?

[GalvanicFour64]

IMO, scaling should increases on secondary damage, but mostly the spell shouldn't break because the target moved out of range, and you should be able to use that action as long as you are within range to use it when you do (and should be able to use your action onsomething else meanwhile). It would still be a bit low tier this way, but not trash like it is now. Maybe up the initial damage too, but it is much less necessary if the secondary is more certain.

So similar to what DarknessEternal said,

Cool ok

[DarknessEternal]

So you’re saying to make it automatic instead of consuming an action?

No, I'm saying make an attack roll every round regardless of of it hitting initially. It should still take an action.

If Witchbolt were not 100% dependent on hitting on the very first attack roll, it's still a good spell even if it has to hit every round to do damage. You'll never upcast it if you only get one attack roll to make it do any damage.

Being a spell that requires an attack roll and an action every turn while maintaining concentration is a very common template for spells, eg Shadowblade, Vampiric Touch, Flaming Sphere (saves are attack rolls essentially).

[GalvanicFour64]

No, I'm saying make an attack roll every round regardless of of it hitting initially. It should still take an action.

If Witchbolt were not 100% dependent on hitting on the very first attack roll, it's still a good spell even if it has to hit every round to do damage. You'll never upcast it if you only get one attack roll to make it do any damage.

Being a spell that requires an attack roll and an action every turn while maintaining concentration is a very common template for spells, eg Shadowblade, Vampiric Touch, Flaming Sphere (saves are attack rolls essentially).

Bro you sure those spells work like that? Vampiric touch doesn’t say you roll each time just “make the attack”, i.e roll for damage, same with flaming sphere and shadow blade is a melee weapon so that’s different

If witchbolt required a roll each time it would just become so much worse imo cos not only would it just do 1d12 per action (which is one of the main problems already) but there would be a fair chance that it would miss too.

Am I understanding this correctly?

[DarknessEternal]

Bro you sure those spells work like that? Vampiric touch doesn’t say you roll each time just “make the attack”, i.e roll for damage, same with flaming sphere and shadow blade is a melee weapon so that’s different

If witchbolt required a roll each time it would just become so much worse imo cos not only would it just do 1d12 per action (which is one of the main problems already) but there would be a fair chance that it would miss too.

Am I understanding this correctly?

You're just incorrect here.

Vampiric Touch "Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

Witchbolt is a bad spell because it's a concentration spell that only gets one chance to become a concentration spell. If you miss the first attack, the spell is over.

Witchbolt is not a bad spell because it requires an action every round to do damage. Many spells do that.

[Doug Lampert]

You're just incorrect here.

Vampiric Touch "Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

Witchbolt is a bad spell because it's a concentration spell that only gets one chance to become a concentration spell. If you miss the first attack, the spell is over.

Witchbolt is not a bad spell because it requires an action every round to do damage. Many spells do that.

My own opinion is that continuing damage should NOT scale with spell level, it should scale as a cantrip.

The continuing damage is a cantrip replacement. 1d12 from levels 1-4, 2d12 from 5-10, 3d12 from 11-16, 4d12 at 17+. Cantrip damage with no attack roll is worth more than attacking with a cantrip, and that's all it needs to do for the continuing damage to be a powerful effect and make up for the relatively anemic initial damage.

Then add something to make it a bit harder to break the spell via range or cover, and you are done.

[GalvanicFour64]

You're just incorrect here.

Vampiric Touch "Until the spell ends, you can make the attack again on each of your turns as an action."

Witchbolt is a bad spell because it's a concentration spell that only gets one chance to become a concentration spell. If you miss the first attack, the spell is over.

Witchbolt is not a bad spell because it requires an action every round to do damage. Many spells do that.

Ohhhhhhh wait I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying something else

Yeah this could be nice too but I don’t feel that’s enough cos the damage is still 1d12 unless that also changes per level

[GalvanicFour64]

My own opinion is that continuing damage should NOT scale with spell level, it should scale as a cantrip.

The continuing damage is a cantrip replacement. 1d12 from levels 1-4, 2d12 from 5-10, 3d12 from 11-16, 4d12 at 17+. Cantrip damage with no attack roll is worth more than attacking with a cantrip, and that's all it needs to do for the continuing damage to be a powerful effect and make up for the relatively anemic initial damage.

Then add something to make it a bit harder to break the spell via range or cover, and you are done.

So you’re saying basically make it a cantrip? That could be cool along with something else, I like that, nice

[DarknessEternal]

Ohhhhhhh wait I think I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying something else

Yeah this could be nice too but I don’t feel that’s enough cos the damage is still 1d12 unless that also changes per level

Witchbolt's damage does change per level of spell slot.

[Doug Lampert]

So you’re saying basically make it a cantrip? That could be cool along with something else, I like that, nice

Nope, the casting and first round damage stay exactly the same. I'm saying that the subsequent round damage should increase with cantrip damage, because the alternative to spending a resource less action to do damage on subsequent rounds is casting a cantrip.

Witch bolt is bad BECAUSE, at level 5+, the continuing damage is worse than casting a cantrip. Don't scale continuing damage with spell level when the problem is the comparison with a cantrip, scale it with the cantrip. That actually solves the problem without risking a level 5-9 casting being vastly overpowered.

[GalvanicFour64]

Witchbolt's damage does change per level of spell slot.

Nu uh, it’s only the initial roll that scales
Either way tho it’s just occurred to me that even with this change it’s still basically a limited Lesser version Of dragons breath so it needs something else
Any ideas?

[GalvanicFour64]

Nope, the casting and first round damage stay exactly the same. I'm saying that the subsequent round damage should increase with cantrip damage, because the alternative to spending a resource less action to do damage on subsequent rounds is casting a cantrip.

Witch bolt is bad BECAUSE, at level 5+, the continuing damage is worse than casting a cantrip. Don't scale continuing damage with spell level when the problem is the comparison with a cantrip, scale it with the cantrip. That actually solves the problem without risking a level 5-9 casting being vastly overpowered.

Oh I see
In that case I don’t think that would help much I feel that would only
A) complicate things when it comes to damage scaling and
B) still leave it pretty underpowered as a spell leading us back to the drawing board

[OvisCaedo]

First level damage spells are generally not great and not really meant to actually scale very competitively with upcasting. (though there are certainly some instances of being able to push them MUCH harder than was probably intended by the game design!). Witch bolt is a PARTICULARLY bad spell, even unreasonably so, but I'd be careful about trying too hard to fix all of its problems at once.

[BoxANT]

simple fix? just make subsequent damage require a bonus action (instead of full action)

[Segev]

I'd make it so that the spell doesn't end when the target leaves the range, and so that the damage is automatic on the caster's turn if the target is in range at any point during the turn. This lets the caster chase down a runner, but also lets the caster use it to drive off somebody.

I'd also make it take no action, and probably be a bonus action to cast. Leave damage otherwise alone. Bonus action for a big burst of damage initially, and then 1d12 every round if the target is in range at any point on the caster's turn. Takes Concentration, but no action.

Maybe, if cast from a 5th level or higher spell slot, it also doesn't take Concentration.

[GalvanicFour64]

I'd make it so that the spell doesn't end when the target leaves the range, and so that the damage is automatic on the caster's turn if the target is in range at any point during the turn. This lets the caster chase down a runner, but also lets the caster use it to drive off somebody.

I'd also make it take no action, and probably be a bonus action to cast. Leave damage otherwise alone. Bonus action for a big burst of damage initially, and then 1d12 every round if the target is in range at any point on the caster's turn. Takes Concentration, but no action.

Maybe, if cast from a 5th level or higher spell slot, it also doesn't take Concentration.

This is also a pretty sick option, nice

Also

Hiiiiiii Segevvvv
We meet again

[GalvanicFour64]

First level damage spells are generally not great and not really meant to actually scale very competitively with upcasting. (though there are certainly some instances of being able to push them MUCH harder than was probably intended by the game design!). Witch bolt is a PARTICULARLY bad spell, even unreasonably so, but I'd be careful about trying too hard to fix all of its problems at once.

You right you right
Ima keep this in mind, thanks

[Edea]

WITCH BOLT
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S. M (a small fetish consisting of two charms, both of which are made of amber from a tree that has been struck by lightning and connected to one another by a copper wire)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minuteA beam of crackling, blue energy streaks towards a creature within range, coalescing into a chain link made of lightning with one end wrapped around your wrist and the other wrapped around the target's body.
The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. This saving throw is made with disadvantage if the target is wearing metal armor (or is otherwise mostly covered in metallic material, at the DM's discretion). On a failed save, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage and is restrained. On each of your turns for the duration while the target is still restrained by this spell, you can use your bonus action to deal an additional 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.

A creature restrained by this spell can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success. the target is freed and the spell ends. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range (such as if you move too far away from the target, or if the target is forcibly pushed away from you) or if it gains total cover from you (such as someone erecting a wall of stone between you and the target).At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

[Vogie]

What I've done at my table is this:


Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 45 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range or if it has total cover from you.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st. Each subsequent strike decreases by a d12, to a minimum of 1d12. (For example, when cast at 3rd level, Witch bolt deals 3d12 on the initial hit, 2d12 on the subsequent hit, and 1d12 for each hit after that.

That is, the damage scales downward over time, the distance is slightly increased, but you can choose to do other things.

Remember, the spell should always be niche. In the case of 5e, it's connected to the Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard. The Wizard breaks down interaction by subclass, so we'll skip that one. For Warlocks, it is a way to maximize one of their few spell slots. For Sorcerers, its a way to do fun things (twin, distant, et cetera).

[GalvanicFour64]

What I've done at my table is this:



That is, the damage scales downward over time, the distance is slightly increased, but you can choose to do other things.

Remember, the spell should always be niche. In the case of 5e, it's connected to the Sorcerer, Warlock and Wizard. The Wizard breaks down interaction by subclass, so we'll skip that one. For Warlocks, it is a way to maximize one of their few spell slots. For Sorcerers, its a way to do fun things (twin, distant, et cetera).

I don’t think having it vanilla scale would be too powerful so how come you’re not doing that?

[GalvanicFour64]

WITCH BOLT
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S. M (a small fetish consisting of two charms, both of which are made of amber from a tree that has been struck by lightning and connected to one another by a copper wire)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minuteA beam of crackling, blue energy streaks towards a creature within range, coalescing into a chain link made of lightning with one end wrapped around your wrist and the other wrapped around the target's body.
The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. This saving throw is made with disadvantage if the target is wearing metal armor (or is otherwise mostly covered in metallic material, at the DM's discretion). On a failed save, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage and is restrained. On each of your turns for the duration while the target is still restrained by this spell, you can use your bonus action to deal an additional 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically.

A creature restrained by this spell can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success. the target is freed and the spell ends. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell's range (such as if you move too far away from the target, or if the target is forcibly pushed away from you) or if it gains total cover from you (such as someone erecting a wall of stone between you and the target).At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

Not quite what I was looking for no...

That being said tho that does seem like a cool take on the spell

Also, hi again edeaaaaa

[GalvanicFour64]

Ok so after further thought, what about this:

Standard witchbolt +
1) damage scaling per slot level (+1d12/lvl)
2) Ok so hear me out. It’s a maximum of 10 rounds right? So I was thinking what if when the spell hits the target gains 3 levels of TEMPORARY exhaustion (again hear me out) that decrease over time, so after 3 rounds it goes down to 2 levels, then another 3 rounds it goes down to 1 and then in the last 3 it’s gone.

All 3 levels would also end if the spell were to stop, i.e moving out of range, concentration being broken, cover (tho I’m thinking maybe alter the cover limitation, sort having the lightning follow you, angry magic)

OR

Have the levels instead build up across the 3 rounds and then maybe be a less temporary thing? Idk but the basis of this option is the build up of effects

So it’s still got the previous limitations but now it’s got stuff to make up for it so high risk high reward.

Or maybe it could be just 2 levels of exhaustion split over 5 rounds instead

Again, relatively new to DnD so this may be possibly OP but idk I’m kinda liking it.

Thoughts?

[Vogie]

I don’t think having it vanilla scale would be too powerful so how come you’re not doing that?

... Because I think it would be.
Having a warlock just stand around dealing 5d12 damage each turn with only a single successful attack roll... that seems okay, sure.

But once you get into other casters, who could use higher slots, and particularly Sorcerers, who could potentially do it to a pair of targets in a room less than 45 ft in EDIT: radius... Suddenly it's too powerful.

Remember, if you want to judge the power of something, you have to make considerations on other collateral things that would impact it. For example, there's a reason that shortly after Casters get Fireball, Paladins get a safety aura, Fighters have an Extra ASI to pick up shield master, and Monks & Rogues get Evasion. Barbarians pick up Danger Sense early, and their defense options give them reasons to have some dexterity already. That's an actual design decision, an acknowledgement that those classes in melee would be the ones most likely to eat a fireball.

[GalvanicFour64]

... Because I think it would be.
Having a warlock just stand around dealing 5d12 damage each turn with only a single successful attack roll... that seems okay, sure.

But once you get into other casters, who could use higher slots, and particularly Sorcerers, who could potentially do it to a pair of targets in a room less than 45 ft in diameter... Suddenly it's too powerful.

Remember, if you want to judge the power of something, you have to make considerations on other collateral things that would impact it. For example, there's a reason that shortly after Casters get Fireball, Paladins get a safety aura, Fighters have an Extra ASI to pick up shield master, and Monks & Rogues get Evasion. Barbarians pick up Danger Sense early, and their defense options give them reasons to have some dexterity already. That's an actual design decision, an acknowledgement that those classes in melee would be the ones most likely to eat a fireball.

You’re right and I get that but the concentration could be broken no? Casters and their low hit die and everything.

[DarknessEternal]

It really is starting to sound like you want something for nothing.

It's a first level spell. Stop thinking it deserves to be more than that.

[Hellpyre]

You’re right and I get that but the concentration could be broken no? Casters and their low hit die and everything.

Hit die doesn't really have anything to do with Concentration. Incoming damage sets the DC regardless of your normal HP totals, and if you get downed, you couldn't have used the actions anyways.

But more importantly, scaling a 1st-level spell to be a very competitive damage source late-game is a bit beyond what upcasting is meant to fix. Dealing enough damage by the second turn to be competitive with a lot of on-level spells is already decent enough, going further means it would be too much damage out of a single slot. (3d12 + 2d12 gives you 32.5 damage to a single target by the second turn, already favorably comparing to fireball's average of 28 damage out of a third-level slot. At 39 average from 3d12 + 3d12, it starts going over the reasonable value ST spells should have over MT spells even when you ignore the fact that lower-level spells aren't meant to be as efficient when upcast.)

[Segev]

Hit die doesn't really have anything to do with Concentration. Incoming damage sets the DC regardless of your normal HP totals, and if you get downed, you couldn't have used the actions anyways.

But more importantly, scaling a 1st-level spell to be a very competitive damage source late-game is a bit beyond what upcasting is meant to fix. Dealing enough damage by the second turn to be competitive with a lot of on-level spells is already decent enough, going further means it would be too much damage out of a single slot. (3d12 + 2d12 gives you 32.5 damage to a single target by the second turn, already favorably comparing to fireball's average of 28 damage out of a third-level slot. At 39 average from 3d12 + 3d12, it starts going over the reasonable value ST spells should have over MT spells even when you ignore the fact that lower-level spells aren't meant to be as efficient when upcast.)

The main issue with witch bolt is that it doesn't even really deal "on-level" damage for a first level spell slot, unless you get at least two rounds out of it. And it's save for none. Which is cantrip-level.

[DarknessEternal]

And it's save for none. Which is cantrip-level.

Save for none is perfectly valid for any level of spell, not just cantrips. So that argument isn't really applicable.

[Segev]

Save for none is perfectly valid for any level of spell, not just cantrips. So that argument isn't really applicable.

In this case, it is "damage like a cantrip, but for a first level spell slot. Maybe more damage later rounds, if you can keep them there and use your Concentration." It's just...not very good.

[DarknessEternal]

In this case, it is "damage like a cantrip, but for a first level spell slot. Maybe more damage later rounds, if you can keep them there and use your Concentration." It's just...not very good.

I agree, it is a bad spell.

[GalvanicFour64]

Hit die doesn't really have anything to do with Concentration. Incoming damage sets the DC regardless of your normal HP totals, and if you get downed, you couldn't have used the actions anyways.

But more importantly, scaling a 1st-level spell to be a very competitive damage source late-game is a bit beyond what upcasting is meant to fix. Dealing enough damage by the second turn to be competitive with a lot of on-level spells is already decent enough, going further means it would be too much damage out of a single slot. (3d12 + 2d12 gives you 32.5 damage to a single target by the second turn, already favorably comparing to fireball's average of 28 damage out of a third-level slot. At 39 average from 3d12 + 3d12, it starts going over the reasonable value ST spells should have over MT spells even when you ignore the fact that lower-level spells aren't meant to be as efficient when upcast.)

Hmmmm...you right, that’s true
Back to the drawing board then
Anything in mind?

[GalvanicFour64]

Ok guys I really think I cracked it this time:

1st-level evocation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for every two slots above first.




I really think I got it here guys, I’ve tried taking what everyone’s been saying into account and came to the conclusion that simplicity really is the best route with fixing this spell (thanks to everyone that showed me that), what do yall think?

[Quietus]

My fix for Witch Bolt is to change it from a spike damage thing, to a sustain spell slot.


Witch Bolt
1st-level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
Crackling, blue energy dances in a circle around your feet, and sparks fly from your fingers as you move them. When you cast this spell, make a ranged spell attack against a creature in range. On a hit, the target takes 2d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to repeat this attack. If you target a creature who was hit last round by an attack from Witch Bolt, you have advantage on the attack roll.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage of each bolt increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.


This is an attempt to embrace the cantrip-like nature of the spell, while removing the pieces that make it useless. You no longer have to target the same creature with each blast, but you are mechanically encouraged to do so. The damage increases so that it's worthwhile over just spamming cantrips, while spending that spell slot and concentration. I'm comparing against Call Lightning, and while you have one extra die of damage over Call Lightning when upcast, you have much smaller range, can only hit one target, and that attack is all or nothing.

[GalvanicFour64]

My fix for Witch Bolt is to change it from a spike damage thing, to a sustain spell slot.




This is an attempt to embrace the cantrip-like nature of the spell, while removing the pieces that make it useless. You no longer have to target the same creature with each blast, but you are mechanically encouraged to do so. The damage increases so that it's worthwhile over just spamming cantrips, while spending that spell slot and concentration. I'm comparing against Call Lightning, and while you have one extra die of damage over Call Lightning when upcast, you have much smaller range, can only hit one target, and that attack is all or nothing.

The thing about the damage scaling tho man is that at 3rd level the damage is double that of fireball after two rounds on a target, and then it’s for ten rounds too and it just goes up from there.

I made the same mistakes when coming up with my version so I get where you’re coming from bro but it’s too strong for a 1st level spell, you gotta keep that in mind, aswell as spells from other levels too, it’s good you were making those comparisons but mainly focus on the spells of its level and their progression.

Your idea is cool, I love the theme and it still gets across the original concept of the spell (confirmed damage over a period of time (nothing too much but enough to count after a little bit), like a concentration magic missile launcher) but it can get a bit broken to say the least.

I don’t mean to impose but what do you think of my version with this in mind?

EDIT: calculation error

[DarknessEternal]

This is an attempt to embrace the cantrip-like nature of the spell,

The only thing cantrip-like about Witch Bolt is that it can miss for zero damage. Disintegrate does the same thing. Do you consider Disintegrate cantrip-like?

[Quietus]

The thing about the damage scaling tho man is that at 3rd level the damage is double that of fireball after two rounds on a target, and then it’s for ten rounds too and it just goes up from there.

I made the same mistakes when coming up with my version so I get where you’re coming from bro but it’s too strong for a 1st level spell, you gotta keep that in mind, aswell as spells from other levels too, it’s good you were making those comparisons but mainly focus on the spells of its level and their progression.

Your idea is cool, I love the theme and it still gets across the original concept of the spell (confirmed damage over a period of time (nothing too much but enough to count after a little bit), like a concentration magic missile launcher) but it can get a bit broken to say the least.

I don’t mean to impose but what do you think of my version with this in mind?

I don't think 2d12 is terribly overpowered for a first level spell. 3d8 (Chromatic orb, Thunderwave) or 4d6 (Guiding Bolt) are all standard first level damage ranges, dealing 13.5 and 14 damage, respectively. All of these have some side benefit, and two of the three have solid range. Thunderwave trades range for hitting an area, and its side benefit mitigates being in melee to use it. Witch Bolt puts you within 30 feet of your target, which is typically within range for movement to bring them into melee with you, has the side benefit of allowing continual use, but requires concentration, which - again - you are likely to be within range to be attacked while casting it.

If this still feels like too much damage, then I'd suggest scaling it back to 1d12+casting mod. Brings the floor up, makes it feel better than using a cantrip, but it still puts its damage around 9.5, which is well below what the other attack options at this level can offer.

As to your version - the only change I saw was that it scaled damage at every other level, instead of every level? And I assume your intent is that it scales both sets of damage. I think that's terribly underpowered, no one is going to choose to cast 2d12 lightning damage over throwing a lightning bolt.


The only thing cantrip-like about Witch Bolt is that it can miss for zero damage. Disintegrate does the same thing. Do you consider Disintegrate cantrip-like?

The cantrip-like quality of my proposed rewrite comes from A) that it can miss, and B) that it gives you an option you can use every single turn. At least, until you lose concentration.

[GalvanicFour64]

I don't think 2d12 is terribly overpowered for a first level spell. 3d8 (Chromatic orb, Thunderwave) or 4d6 (Guiding Bolt) are all standard first level damage ranges, dealing 13.5 and 14 damage, respectively. All of these have some side benefit, and two of the three have solid range. Thunderwave trades range for hitting an area, and its side benefit mitigates being in melee to use it. Witch Bolt puts you within 30 feet of your target, which is typically within range for movement to bring them into melee with you, has the side benefit of allowing continual use, but requires concentration, which - again - you are likely to be within range to be attacked while casting it.

If this still feels like too much damage, then I'd suggest scaling it back to 1d12+casting mod. Brings the floor up, makes it feel better than using a cantrip, but it still puts its damage around 9.5, which is well below what the other attack options at this level can offer.

As to your version - the only change I saw was that it scaled damage at every other level, instead of every level? And I assume your intent is that it scales both sets of damage. I think that's terribly underpowered, no one is going to choose to cast 2d12 lightning damage over throwing a lightning bolt.



The cantrip-like quality of my proposed rewrite comes from A) that it can miss, and B) that it gives you an option you can use every single turn. At least, until you lose concentration.

No but bro that’s the point.

its easy to lose sight of that when trying to fix it but how often do you see other first level spells scaled that high? You don’t cos they’re first level, they’re not meant to be
You’re right thunder wave does 2d8 15feet and 10feet knockback
But it scales by 1d8 only and it’s instantaneous. Witchbolt is over 10 rounds so if the damage for a single round is on par with an instantaneous spell AND you get a free hit every round then it gets a bit OP ygm? Like people are gonna always use that spell and that is NOT the point of a first level spell.
Or take Chromatic orb for example, 3d8 any elemental damage.
But it scales by 1d8 and again, instantaneous.

My point is a 9th level thunderwave Would do 45 damage average, a 9th level Chromatic orb would do 49.5

Your 9th level witch-bolt over the full duration would do 650 damage average, 65 damage free per round.
So there’s a clear difference from the other first level spells, they’re supposed to be on par.

The point isn’t to do a lot of damage the point is to do a bit BUT ITS FREE. It takes your action sure but it’s still free. That’s something important.

Whilst a 1st level chaos bolt would do 12.5 damage in a round, and a chromatic orb would do 13.5.
Witchbolt for 1d12 per round would do a small 6.5
But it’s FREE
THATS the utility here
1st level spells mainly balance the utility and the damage.

I get that combat doesn’t normally go over 5-6 rounds and that the Short range of Witchbolt should balance out the damage (which is another problem, the range puts you in too much danger so I doubled it for my version)

But you gotta compare it to 1st level spells in EVERY aspect. Including the lack of decent upcasting
It’s not supposed to be amazing, just useful enough.

Now as you’ve compared it to call lightning earlier on (which is good, decent comparison) you gotta remember they’re literally (and metaphorically) not on the same level.

Even stuff like vampiric touch, spirit weapon, flaming sphere etc (which are all closer in comparison) don’t do as much as your version of Witchbolt (again a 1st level spell) when upcasted abd they’re all higher level.

Ygm bro?

TL;DR: 1st level spells aren’t meant to be upcasted that much, doing so is only for niche purposes. That being said tho you always gotta keep in mind the balance of damage vs utility

[Quietus]

You can't average it out over ten rounds; if you're able to generate a situation in which the opponent stands still and allows you to blast away at them with impunity, then you might as well not have the fight.

Meteor Swarm does average 140 damage, per target, in a 40 foot area. Even looking at a 2d12 witch bolt upcasted to 9th, for 65 damage a round, you're looking at having to land 3 attacks with Witch Bolt against a single target to outdo what Meteor Swarm did to them, and in the meantime any other opponents remain untouched.

At third level - a 2d12 Witch Bolt upcasts to 26 damage on a single target, with a whiff if you miss. Fireball is 28 to everyone in the area, 14 if they pass. Witch Bolt still looks pretty good in single target situations here, but as soon as you're hitting multiple targets, the 3rd level spells are way better.

At sixth level - 2d12 witch bolt upcasts to 7d12, or 45.5 damage per hit. Disintegrate is 75 damage, and relies on dex save, so you can save it for the lumbering full plate knight.

In all of these situations, Witch Bolt falls behind. Frankly, I'd argue that spells should remain competitive when upcast, or else you're telling someone that those lower level spells simply don't matter any more. Any time you're looking at spending 2-3 turns to do what you would otherwise do in 1, you have to consider the action economy cost. Because I'm not casting Fireball (or Disintegrate, or Meteor Swarm), and then standing around with my thumb in my ear. There's magery to be done!

::Edit:: also, in case this wasn't clear, the rewritten version I suggested requires a new attack roll each round, it's not automatic damage.

[GalvanicFour64]

You can't average it out over ten rounds; if you're able to generate a situation in which the opponent stands still and allows you to blast away at them with impunity, then you might as well not have the fight.

Meteor Swarm does average 140 damage, per target, in a 40 foot area. Even looking at a 2d12 witch bolt upcasted to 9th, for 65 damage a round, you're looking at having to land 3 attacks with Witch Bolt against a single target to outdo what Meteor Swarm did to them, and in the meantime any other opponents remain untouched.

At third level - a 2d12 Witch Bolt upcasts to 26 damage on a single target, with a whiff if you miss. Fireball is 28 to everyone in the area, 14 if they pass. Witch Bolt still looks pretty good in single target situations here, but as soon as you're hitting multiple targets, the 3rd level spells are way better.

At sixth level - 2d12 witch bolt upcasts to 7d12, or 45.5 damage per hit. Disintegrate is 75 damage, and relies on dex save, so you can save it for the lumbering full plate knight.

In all of these situations, Witch Bolt falls behind. Frankly, I'd argue that spells should remain competitive when upcast, or else you're telling someone that those lower level spells simply don't matter any more. Any time you're looking at spending 2-3 turns to do what you would otherwise do in 1, you have to consider the action economy cost. Because I'm not casting Fireball (or Disintegrate, or Meteor Swarm), and then standing around with my thumb in my ear. There's magery to be done!

Thing is tho in that case you’re gonna have to fix every other 1st level spell too cos essentially as you correctly put it, they kinda don’t matter anymore, not saying whether that should or shouldn’t be the case in just giving the reality.

Whilst you’re correct about the first round damage being outdone by other spells you gotta remember you’re spending the next turn to get free damage. You just gotta stay in range but it’s free. That’s amazing for high AC opponents. And sometimes it’s mainly 1 opponent you gotta down more so than the others (ie mini bosses and bosses) so in those situations you gotta realise how great it would be, and I get that at 6th level it does less damage than disintegrate (albeit surpassing it after a second round) but that brings me back to my original point which is that it’s a 1st level spell, if you’re gonna fix this one youre gonna definitely have to fix the others which as someone (sorry I’m forgetting who) said on this post earlier: “it’s an exercise in futility”.

EDIT: oh ok....then it’s actually alright I suppose, different route and it still doesn’t match the other 1st level spells tho so there’s still that problem, but that aside (and if you’re alright with one 1st level spell more or less dominating the others) it’s alright
Good job!
I’d still bring it down to 1d12 instead of 2d12 tho, otherwise I think it’s alright
Actually I’d remove the advantage, then it’s alright