conjure animals, grapple, and fly ?

[da newt]

What is RAW wrt the following Scenario?

Combat outside, opponents of Med and Large size (we'll use a pack of 5 Dire Wolves), Druid casts Conjure Animals and summons 8 Giant Owls (or Giant Bats), and commands them to grapple and lift the enemy.

Owls feet and talons are specifically designed for grasping prey, but the Grapple rules state you must have a free hand. Does the Owl's foot qualify as a 'hand' for grappling? Bat's feet are designed to hold branches / rocks while they roost ...

It's an Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics check to determine if the grapple is successful. Very few creatures and NPCs have proff in either, and even with only a +1 ST for the Owl (+2 for Bat), the Dire Wolf has a +3 ST, so the odds of success aren't bad. With each Owl attempting a grapple you can expect ~ 3 successes. Then the owls fly up, half speed 30' for those carrying a Dire Wolf.

Grapple says you can lift or drag a grappled creature at half speed as long as it is no more than one size larger than the grappler. So a Giant Owl could fly off with a HUGE creature?

On subsequent turns the Owls with a grappled Dire Wolf, use dash action to fly up + movement, for +60'. The remaining Owls attempt to grapple ...

If a Dire Wolf breaks grapple or kills the Owl it falls taking fall damage and falls prone.

Are there any rules I'm missing?

[JNAProductions]

What is RAW wrt the following Scenario?

Combat outside, opponents of Med and Large size (we'll use a pack of 5 Dire Wolves), Druid casts Conjure Animals and summons 8 Giant Owls (or Giant Bats), and commands them to grapple and lift the enemy.

Owls feet and talons are specifically designed for grasping prey, but the Grapple rules state you must have a free hand. Does the Owl's foot qualify as a 'hand' for grappling? Bat's feet are designed to hold branches / rocks while they roost ...

It's an Athletics vs Athletics/Acrobatics check to determine if the grapple is successful. Very few creatures and NPCs have proff in either, and even with only a +1 ST for the Owl (+2 for Bat), the Dire Wolf has a +3 ST, so the odds of success aren't bad. With each Owl attempting a grapple you can expect ~ 3 successes. Then the owls fly up, half speed 30' for those carrying a Dire Wolf.

Grapple says you can lift or drag a grappled creature at half speed as long as it is no more than one size larger than the grappler. So a Giant Owl could fly off with a HUGE creature?

On subsequent turns the Owls with a grappled Dire Wolf, use dash action to fly up + movement, for +60'. The remaining Owls attempt to grapple ...

If a Dire Wolf breaks grapple or kills the Owl it falls taking fall damage and falls prone.

Are there any rules I'm missing?

All seems in order.

And yeah, the RAW for grappling assumes humanoid composition-it's perfectly reasonable to allow a wolf to grapple with their bite, or an owl to use their talons.

The only thing you're missing is carrying capacity, or encumbrance. A Giant Owl has a 13 in Strength, meaning it can carry 13*15*2=390 pounds. (The *2 is for being Large.)

So, if the Dire Wolves are more than 390 pounds, they cannot carry them. That's what would stop them from flying up with a Huge creature, probably.

Notably, I personally would only apply the carrying capacity rules if they were flying UP. Just dragging them across the ground, I'd rule that they could grapple them and move them without any major issues, even if it was a several ton Earth Elemental.

[Amnestic]

Sounds right.

And yet another example as to why Conjure Animals for 8 CR 1/4s is busted.

[JackPhoenix]

The only thing you're missing is carrying capacity, or encumbrance. A Giant Owl has a 13 in Strength, meaning it can carry 13*15*2=390 pounds. (The *2 is for being Large.)

So, if the Dire Wolves are more than 390 pounds, they cannot carry them. That's what would stop them from flying up with a Huge creature, probably.

Weight desn't matter when moving a grappled target (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/18/is-pushingdragging-a-grappled-creature-subject-to-the-carrying-capacity-rules/). Only size does, though mostly out of the dev's laziness.

[da newt]

If I read it right, Carrying Capacity is used for how much you can carry all day long with no change in your speed. Lift, Drag, Push weight is 2x Carrying Capacity and represents what you can do for a bit and with a reduced speed.

But then Grapple adds is a different set of rules - 1/2 speed, any weight, as long as it's no more than one size bigger ...

Plus what Jack Posted.

[sophontteks]

Depending on DM ruling of Free hand, the wolf too could grapple the Owl. With the Owl's speed dropped to 0 both will fall.

AFAIK, the wolf could also use the "trip" action, and cause the owl to drop as well. And guess what happens to be built into the wolf's attack...

[da newt]

At 30' ht on the dire wolf's turn, if the wolf attacks and owl fails the save and 'prones' the owl, both fall 30' for 3d6 damage and both land prone. Then it is the owl's turn, the owl stands and grapples the wolf again this time with ADV because the wolf is prone, but the owl can only lift it 15' because it used half it's movement to stand.

As for 'trip' action, I think you mean 'shove' action to knock prone.

[greenstone]

Weight desn't matter when moving a grappled target (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/11/18/is-pushingdragging-a-grappled-creature-subject-to-the-carrying-capacity-rules/). Only size does, though mostly out of the dev's laziness.

I don't know if I'd use the word "laziness" here. If weight mattered, then game and adventure writers would have to go through the books and give weight ranges and/or averages for every single creature (and probably for items like statues, doors, sliding walls, furniture, etc).

Then we'd be having discussions like, "The boxed text described these wolves as big and muscly, how come their weight doesn't change?" and, "My druid shapechanges into an anorexic dire wolf, so the barbarian can still carry me!"

[JackPhoenix]

At 30' ht on the dire wolf's turn, if the wolf attacks and owl fails the save and 'prones' the owl, both fall 30' for 3d6 damage and both land prone. Then it is the owl's turn, the owl stands and grapples the wolf again this time with ADV because the wolf is prone, but the owl can only lift it 15' because it used half it's movement to stand.

As for 'trip' action, I think you mean 'shove' action to knock prone.

Where would the owl get advantage on grapple? Prone does not interact with ability checks.

[Wraith]

Owls feet and talons are specifically designed for grasping prey, but the Grapple rules state you must have a free hand. Does the Owl's foot qualify as a 'hand' for grappling? Bat's feet are designed to hold branches / rocks while they roost ...

I don't think this is an issue - the entry for a Constrictor Snake in the Monster Manual specifically allows you to grapple an enemy despite having no limbs, so I think it's one of those things that's permissible so long as it can be more or less justified by fluff. Does your character have some way of attaching itself to the enemy, either with limbs, jaws or by bodily enveloping them? Yes? Good to go!


The only thing you're missing is carrying capacity, or encumbrance. A Giant Owl has a 13 in Strength, meaning it can carry 13*15*2=390 pounds. (The *2 is for being Large.)

So, if the Dire Wolves are more than 390 pounds, they cannot carry them. That's what would stop them from flying up with a Huge creature, probably.

Not quite true; being over-encumbered reduces your movement speed by 10ft, and by 20ft if you're heavily encumbered - it doesn't prevent you from doing it outright. So they could still do it by RaW, but they'd be slowed to as little as 10' per turn and your GM would probably let you know when enough is enough. :smalltongue:


Where would the owl get advantage on grapple? Prone does not interact with ability checks.

Multiple owls Helping each other, probably? Grapple is an ability (STR) check, so the Help action would apply.

[sophontteks]

At 30' ht on the dire wolf's turn, if the wolf attacks and owl fails the save and 'prones' the owl, both fall 30' for 3d6 damage and both land prone. Then it is the owl's turn, the owl stands and grapples the wolf again this time with ADV because the wolf is prone, but the owl can only lift it 15' because it used half it's movement to stand.

As for 'trip' action, I think you mean 'shove' action to knock prone.
Remember that pushes and trips are ability checks, not attacks. They don't get advantage for prone.

[da newt]

Where would the owl get advantage on grapple? Prone does not interact with ability checks.


Good catch. I was thinking because it's a special attack action, you'd get ADV, but prone states "attack roll" specifically.

[Chronos]

Quoth Wraith:

Multiple owls Helping each other, probably?
They could grip it by the husk!

[Bobthewizard]

Not quite true; being over-encumbered reduces your movement speed by 10ft, and by 20ft if you're heavily encumbered - it doesn't prevent you from doing it outright. So they could still do it by RaW, but they'd be slowed to as little as 10' per turn and your GM would probably let you know when enough is enough. :smalltongue:


I could be wrong but I think the base rule is just 15# per point of STR and this is a variant encumbrance rule.

[da newt]

So lvl 5 Shepherd Druid casts Conjure Animals for 8 Giant Bats, then BA Bear Totem to give them all +10 hp and ADV on all ST ability checks/saves. 15 ST, 13 AC, 22+10 hp, 60' fly speed ... should make for some exceptional crowd control.

[Bobthewizard]

So lvl 5 Shepherd Druid casts Conjure Animals for 8 Giant Bats, then BA Bear Totem to give them all +10 hp and ADV on all ST ability checks/saves. 15 ST, 13 AC, 22+10 hp, 60' fly speed ... should make for some exceptional crowd control.

At level 6 the THP goes to 11 and the animals each get an additional 2HP per hit die. At level 9 you can summon 16 of them once per day.

Shepherd druid makes it hard for the DM. It almost doubles the party's offense and defense, so to try to balance encounters you have to anticipate if the druid is going to use it. If the druid keeps concentration, then a deadly encounter becomes easy. If the druid loses concentration but you built the encounter to account for it, the party could die quickly. But it's hard to nerf the spell when that's the whole point of the subclass.

Amnestic is doing a great job with it in our campaign. The spell is still useful and powerful, but the other characters are still contributing and thriving. I can imagine it's been challenging, though.

[sophontteks]

Yeah shepherd is really unappreciated for how broken OP it is. Shepherd druids also possess better healing then a life cleric, and not by a small margin either. They have better healing spells and an insane healing potential with unicorn spirit.

I just don't play them because of the logistics.

[JackPhoenix]

So lvl 5 Shepherd Druid casts Conjure Animals for 8 Giant Bats, then BA Bear Totem to give them all +10 hp and ADV on all ST ability checks/saves. 15 ST, 13 AC, 22+10 hp, 60' fly speed ... should make for some exceptional crowd control.

Of course, both RAI and RAW, the druid doesn't get to pick specific animals to conjure, so you can end up with a herd of cows instead....

[Amnestic]

Of course, both RAI and RAW, the druid doesn't get to pick specific animals to conjure, so you can end up with a herd of cows instead....

8 charging cows each deal 3d6+4 at a +6 to hit.

Cows are by no means a bad result for conjure animals.

[da newt]

IMO any DM who decides that when a druid casts Conjure Animals is going to just randomly insert any CR or below animal is a @#$%. If i cast CA for 8 Giant Owls so we can fly out of here, and I get 8 frogs, I'm gonna flip the table like an 8 yr old losing at monopoly and storm off never to return, and to be perfectly honest the DM deserves it.

[Benny89]

IMO any DM who decides that when a druid casts Conjure Animals is going to just randomly insert any CR or below animal is a @#$%. If i cast CA for 8 Giant Owls so we can fly out of here, and I get 8 frogs, I'm gonna flip the table like an 8 yr old losing at monopoly and storm off never to return, and to be perfectly honest the DM deserves it.

I second that. If I conjure something and I have no idea what I conjure - I am idiot even using the spell in first place. I let (and all DMs I play with) player pick what he summons because that is why he is using this spell- we fight on sea, he wants Giant Octopuses to help team. We need to fly away - Giant Eagles/Owls can take party away. We need Invisiblity? Pixies can help. We need to cause commotion? 8 Giant Elks charging around will cause enough commotion. And so on. The only scenario where I am fine with player NOT HAVING control over his own magic is when someone plays Wild Magic caster. That's it.

[Demonslayer666]

Weight isn't mentioned in Grappling because you are shoving them or dragging them, not lifting them. When you do lift something, you need to use the lifting rules.

Unfortunately, 5e doesn't make any distinctions for having more than two legs, swimming, or flying for encumbrance. All of these should have adjustments. I would reduce the amount carriable by a natural flier, but not a magical one.

Orders to grapple, carry up, and drop is complicated for animal commands. I might let you get away with "grab them and fly off" and then subsequently tell them to drop them. But it would be a chaotic mess as 8 giant fliers tried to compete for a wolf to grab (you could not direct each one to grab a specific wolf in a single command). I'd probably roll randomly for their target, favoring the closest ones, and I might make it required that 2 on one wolf would be needed to easily lift it.

This isn't a win button IMO, but pretty inventive, and would still be pretty effective, at least on a few wolves.

[sophontteks]

This isn't a win button IMO, but pretty inventive, and would still be pretty effective, at least on a few wolves.
Actually I think this strategy is less effective then the normal fly-by in most cases. The wolves have a much higher hit chance vs. the owls grapple chance, and they knock the Owl out of the sky as part of their normal attack.

I think this is a pretty one-sided fight.

The owls would probably be better off doing fly bys where there is no way for the wolves to fight back.

[Darth Credence]

Actually I think this strategy is less effective then the normal fly-by in most cases. The wolves have a much higher hit chance vs. the owls grapple chance, and they knock the Owl out of the sky as part of their normal attack.

I think this is a pretty one-sided fight.

The owls would probably be better off doing fly bys where there is no way for the wolves to fight back.

Is there no way for the wolves to fight back? I had a similar situation recently, where my players were fighting lobstrosities, and they were all well out of range of them while the wizard's familiar owl was harassing them. I had the lobstrosities ready an attack for the next time the thing swooped in range, and they tore it to pieces. The wizard was not happy, although they agreed that it was a fair use of the rules, and when all of the critters stayed right where they were with claws raised, they should have known it was coming.

If I were DMing the wolves here, and the owls did fly bys, they would absolutely be ready for the next swoop. And I would expect that if any of them hit it, that owl is going to be ripped to shreds in short order, the same as if the owl tried to grapple.

[sophontteks]

Is there no way for the wolves to fight back? I had a similar situation recently, where my players were fighting lobstrosities, and they were all well out of range of them while the wizard's familiar owl was harassing them. I had the lobstrosities ready an attack for the next time the thing swooped in range, and they tore it to pieces. The wizard was not happy, although they agreed that it was a fair use of the rules, and when all of the critters stayed right where they were with claws raised, they should have known it was coming.

If I were DMing the wolves here, and the owls did fly bys, they would absolutely be ready for the next swoop. And I would expect that if any of them hit it, that owl is going to be ripped to shreds in short order, the same as if the owl tried to grapple.
True, they can ready as action. I was assuming the fight would include the full party as well for both scenarios. I don't think it'd be wise for the wolves to wait for the owls to attack while fighting the party.

It could be more helpful for the owls to try to grapple in some cases. It's hard to really say without knowing more about the party, I just think this strategy is less effective against wolves specifically.

[da newt]

Demon - Giant owls have an INT of 8 and understand common just fine. They are every bit as smart as every PC who dumps INT.

Soph - you are correct, the grapple odds (without the Shepherd Druid's Bear Totem ADV to all ST ability checks) for the Giant Owls is pretty low (~40%), but if they fail to grapple and lift, then they fly away so the Dire Wolves cannot attack at all. If they do succeed at the grapple, then IF a Dire Wolf succeeds to hit next round, AND the Giant Owl fails the save, then both the Dire Wolf and the Giant Owl fall for 3d6 and land prone. If the Dire Wolf attacks and misses, it gets 60' higher next round. If the Dire Wolfe's attack succeeds but the Owl's save is successful, the Dire Wolf gets 60' higher next round.

As for Ready Action - good tactic. IF the ready action attack hits, AND the Owl fails it's save, the Owl is FOOKED. Otherwise, a successful grapple ends with the Wolf 30' in the air, and a failed grapple the Owl moves out of attack range.