How fun would a rogue be in a game that was mostly combat?

[Rfkannen]

Rogues often are talked about as a class that is great for out of combat stuff, stealth and such.

How would the rogue do in a campaign that was mostly (or even all) combat, without much opportunity for stealth are talking to people? Are there any types of rogues that would do better or worse? Would the rogue be fun to play, or would it be better to stick to other classes?

I am not planing to play in a game like this, just wondering.

[Samayu]

I played a swashbuckler in a campaign where I hardly did any sneaky rogue-type stuff, so it was mainly combat. It did OK. I never had to unlock a door or climb a wall, or that kind of thing. I never felt like the other players were wondering what I was good for.

I've found that fun is mostly due to the character's personality.

[sayaijin]

One of my favorite reasons to play rogue is that they scale well in combat. They are rarely going to be the primary striker, but as long as you can always use sneak attack, you're always relevant.

If you want to boost combat ability, you can go arcane trickster for the SCAG cantrips.

[Seclora]

I'd have to second the Swashbuckler as a good option for a rogue that excels in non-stealth combat. It's a subclass that really plays into being very exciting in any circumstance, and doesn't need to slink around at all to shine.

I'd also like to throw the Scout out there, especially at higher levels. It might not be able to solo an opponent like a Swashbuckler, but they're uniquely well suited to staying out of melee while also landing hits on anyone already engaged with your frontline. If your DM allows UA, the Aim alternate class feature works really well at making the Scout into the party's skirmisher.

[OldTrees1]

Rogue's most important feature is Expertise, then Cunning Action, then Reliable Talent, and finally Sneak Attack. If the game is extremely combat heavy, then skills are devalued massively. This means Rogues become Fighters with x2 movement and 1 strong attack instead of many light attacks. So imagine a Barbarian (yes, a Str Rogue) or a Fencer.

However even if a game is mostly combat, it is unlikely to be so combat heavy as to devalue out of combat skills that much.

Mountain Dwarf Str 16, Con 14-16, Dex 14 wearing Half Plate and Shortsword (d6 makes it easier to roll your 11d6+Str cleaver). Expertise in Perception and Athletics (for tripping).

[Keravath]

Ranged rogues with a mechanism to obtain advantage on their attack rolls that increases to hit and automatically enables sneak attack work well even in a combat heavy campaign. They won't do the most damage usually but they have one large hit and it is essential that this hits as often as possible.

I find Arcane Tricksters probably work the best for this.

Find Familar for an owl to use the help action to assist the rogue in combat, bonus action hide (if cover is available - expertise in stealth helps with this), mage hand at 13th level. If you play a halfling, you can hide in combat behind creatures one size larger than you then pop out and shoot.

In addition, even combat heavy campaigns will likely have traps and other obstacles so having expertise in perception and investigation are also very useful.

Melee rogues are more challenging since there are more limited ways to obtain advantage. One of the best would be to use the shadow blade spell in dim light or darkness.

A ranged rogue can benefit from a couple of levels of ranger for the archery fighting style and hunter's mark for additional damage to replace the sneak attack die lost by the multiclass. A third level of gloomstalker ranger gives a bunch of benefits to a rogue that lacks darkvision to start with ... however, 3 levels is a significant investment and will slow the rogue class progression.

[OldTrees1]

Ranged rogues with a mechanism to obtain advantage on their attack rolls that increases to hit and automatically enables sneak attack work well even in a combat heavy campaign.

Sneak Attack already works well in combat regardless of type of Rogue or how combat heavy the campaign is. For almost every round, the Rogue doesn't need to do anything special to get sneak attack. It is basically always on in 5E because you just need an ally.

If an ally is next to your target, you get your bonus damage. No advantage required.

[Chugger]

Rogue sneak attack is a little underwhelming sometimes, I must admit. A normal lvl 8 rogue sneak attacks for 1d8 (rapier) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 5 dex + 1 (+1 weapon) = 4.5 + 14 + 6 = 24.5 average damage.

A level 8 tanky barbarian using shield and 1 hand weapon does 2 x (1d8 (weapon) + 5 (str) + 2 (rage) + 1 (magic weapon) or 2 x (4.5 + 5 + 3) = 25 average damage.

So the rogue needs to off-hand attack - does 9.5 more but requires a feat and a dip in fighter (for the fighting style) to really make it shine.

So the barb goes variant human PAM and does 2 x (5.5 + 5 +3) and does 2.5 +5 +3 with the bonus action attack for 27 + 10.5 or 37.5 average damage.

My AT uses a +2 hand crossbow and has 20 dex, ss and xbow expert feats. His sneak attack is 1d6 (h xbow) + 5d6 (he's level 10, sneak attack) + 5 dex + 2 magic weapon and if the target's ac is low enough + 10 from sharpshooter. That's 38. He usually hits because his familiar helps him on his main shot. Now he gets a bonus action shot because of xbow expert feat - either 10.5 more or 20.5 more, but he's going to miss more with this one because he rarely has advantage. So that's 48.5 + 10.5 or 20.5 = 59 or 69 damage. But look what I had to do to get that - this isn't an ordinary rogue.

So the barb goes GWM PAM and 18 str and is lvl 10. His range damage goes up. He reckless attacks and if he hits w/ all 3, he does 2x (5.5 + 4 + 3 +1 + 10) = 2 x 23.5 = 47 and then 2.5 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 10 (butt strike) for 20.5 more or 67.5 total damage.

Strikers do a lot of damage. Rogues can, too. Where the rogue goes from here is figuring out how to get a second sneak attack on the round. You can only have one s.a. per turn, but if you get a reaction attack and if you still qualify for a s.a., you can get a second s.a. for the round. At this point the rogue is doing amazing damage - my AT at lvl 10 on such a round could do 107 average damage.

The barbarian needs a girdle of giant str and to be hasted to keep up, but a rogue can't land 2 s.a.'s a round consistently.

(at lvl 14 or so an AT can haste themselves, ready an action, do s.a. on their turn with hasted attack, do b.a. shot - then readied action is set to go off "the moment my turn ends" - boom, second s.a. Sentinel feat can get you a second s.a. if DM doesn't fight you on this. If someone uses commander's strike on you - if you 3-dip bm fighter and take Riposte - these are some ways to get a second s.a. in a round.

The people who really take off in striker land are maybe a Sorcadin (or a pal) who lands all that PaM/GWM damage the barb did PLUS he novas w/ divine smites. A lvl 11 fighter with PaM does 7 attacks on an action surge round. I've seen Rangers (gloomstalker) do insane damage with iirc the Oathbow and various cheese (SS and more).

So if you figure out this stuff you can make a rogue perform and do really good damage - plus they have expertise and are very strong in skills and the sneaky and lockpick stuff. But be aware that melee strikers also hit very hard, if damage is your priority. If fun is what you want, go with what is fun and make it work. Good luck!

[Lord Raziere]

How to be a combat rogue:

1-Be a dex fighter up to level 2
2-take criminal background
3- if allowed multiclass into rogue to get sneak attack then go up to rogue 3 for assassin archetype

After that just fighter all day as its just generally straight up better in combat.

[JellyPooga]

Straight Rogue is very viable for combat, even without straying outside the PHB.

Yes, Sneak Attack is a little under-par compared to PAM/GWM, but it's also more flexible (ranged and melee) and also stacks with Sharpshooter, if you're so inclined (though I wouldn't recommend it).

Both Thief and Arcane Trickster bring more than just damage to the table, whether through use of Fast Hands to add the use of equipment and terrain to your combats or Spellcasting/UMD to spice things up with a little magic. Assassin is the least useful subclass for a pure combat game, but it isn't without merit, depending on how "pure combat" the game is, exactly.

Cunning Action, Expertise (Athletics), Uncanny Dodge and Evasion give the Rogue a unique combat utility/experience that can be entirely divorced from the other two pillars of play. Try building a Dwarf or Half-Orc Str-Rogue with only combat in mind and you'll see what I mean.

10/10 Would play again.

[CTurbo]

Rogues are very fun in combat. A solo class Rogue isn't going to quite keep up with a well-feated martial Fighter/Barb/Paladin/Ranger in DPR, but they can at least keep up. The biggest issue with a character that has 1 really hard attack is when you miss, you wasted an entire round.

There are a few ways to go about making a melee Rogue, and here are the 2 most popular.

1. The TWF Rogue. Twice as many attacks means you're twice as likely to land your sneak attack.

2. The Booming Blade Rogue. Make your 1 attack hit even harder.

Swashbuckler Rogues make the best melee Rogues and the best TWF Rogues.


I think the key to making a successful melee Rogue is having a semi-reliable way to use your Sneak Attack off turn with your reaction. Sentinel is a good feat for that and multiclassing with Battlemaster Fighter for the Riposte maneuver. You don't NEED 5 levels of Fighter for extra attack, but it wouldn't hurt. I'd choose TWF here.

For the Booming Blade Rogue, I recommend 1 level of Draconic Sorcerer or Hexblade Warlock. Both options give you better AC and the Shield spell among others.

[JellyPooga]

There are a few ways to go about making a melee Rogue, and here are the 2 most popular.

1. The TWF Rogue. Twice as many attacks means you're twice as likely to land your sneak attack.

2. The Booming Blade Rogue. Make your 1 attack hit even harder.

Swashbuckler Rogues make the best melee Rogues and the best TWF Rogues.

I tentatively disagree. Yes, Sneak Attack is an important part of playing a "combat Rogue", but it is also the most boring. As you mention yourself, any Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin or Ranger (hell, include some Bards, Clerics and Warlocks on that list) can outperform a Rogue in DPR, even if the Rogue is optimised for it.

What makes Rogues good in melee is not DPR. It's all the other stuff. Maneuverability and skirmishing, shoves, grapples, a remarkable tankiness...and being a credible threat when it's not their turn (no-ones OA hurts as much as one from a Rogue), among other things. Combat Rogues are at their best when they're being a thorn in the side of the enemies best guy, distracting them and generally preventing them from doing what they do best. A good combat Rogue doesn't need to do the most damage, they just need to threaten doing enough that the enemy focus on the Rogue and not the other members of the party who are at their best when they're doing the most damage/spellcasting/whatever.

That's why I don't like the Swashbuckler as a combat Rogue. It just makes the Rogue a little bit better at a couple of thigs that the baseline Rogue is already good enough at. It doesn't really add any greater versatility, unlike the Arcane Trickster (which gets a laundry list of options from spellcasting) or Thief (which adds mundane equipment/skill use, terrain and eventually magic to their options/arsenal). In a white room, yeah, Swashbuckler might have higher numbers than the others, but white room number crunching is literally the worst standard to measure what it means to be a Rogue by.

The true strength of the Rogue, whether in or out of combat, lies in adaptability, flexibility and resilience. Swashbuckler adds little to nothing in these regards and pigeon-holes/encourages a single style of combat that is often/usually outperformed by other classes.

NB - I speak solely about single-classed Rogues here. Multiclassing opens up a whole barrel of fun!

[Keravath]

Sneak Attack already works well in combat regardless of type of Rogue or how combat heavy the campaign is. For almost every round, the Rogue doesn't need to do anything special to get sneak attack. It is basically always on in 5E because you just need an ally.

If an ally is next to your target, you get your bonus damage. No advantage required.

Absolutely, but rogue attacks are all or nothing. They only have one. I find that the best way to make a rogue more effective at combat is to have mechanisms in the build that frequently result in advantage on the attack roll. This significantly increases the chances of landing the attack AND allows the rogue to pick a target on the field that does not have an ally adjacent if that choice makes the most sense.

With methods to obtain advantage, a ranged rogue can safely focus on taking out the enemy caster who is protected by a number of melee opponents that prevent your melee allies from getting close.

I realize that sneak attack only needs an ally adjacent but without advantage the attack has a significantly smaller chance of hitting. I have a rogue/warlock character and one of their capabilities is a larget number of ways to obtain advantage helping to ensure that their attacks hit while at the same time also granting sneak attack against targets even if an ally is not adjacent.

I find a build like this tends to make a particularly effective rogue in combat situations.

[KorvinStarmast]

I realize that sneak attack only needs an ally adjacent but without advantage the attack has a significantly smaller chance of hitting. I have a rogue/warlock character and one of their capabilities is a larget number of ways to obtain advantage helping to ensure that their attacks hit while at the same time also granting sneak attack against targets even if an ally is not adjacent.

I find a build like this tends to make a particularly effective rogue in combat situations. My nephew's Rogue(scout) was scary good in combat (5-6 person party) either with ranged attacks or close in. (And that little 15 foot evasion move when some enemies come into attack is handy as all get out). My objective as a support caster was to find as many ways as I could to help the rogue get advantage as often as possible. Sometimes an owl swoop/flyby, sometimes me using help instead of something else, sometimes a cleric's bless did the trick for the to hit boost.

The Rogue still handles the striker roll reasonably well, but as with an d20 roll, will sometimes miss.

Absolutely, but rogue attacks are all or nothing. They only have one. Yes and no. Any PC can do two weapon fighting. Any rogue can attack twice (two daggers, two short swords) it's just that the second attack doesn't get dex bonus for damage. The sneak attack triggers on a hit, right? (But that does remove the 'disengage' bonus action).

A rogue with Crossbow Expert gets two shots, right? One with action and one with bonus action. (Light and hand crossbow IIRC)

[MinotaurWarrior]

Rogues are great in a pure combat game, assuming you already have your bases covered.

A huge point I haven't seen raised is that bonus action hide + evasion + uncanny dodge make you an excellent compliment to a tank. You help funnel hits towards the pc with high AC by being untargetable.

The highest DPR achievable with a single class rogue is as an AT with booming blade and haste to reliably get 1.5 (hiding) to 2 (not hiding) SA a round. Though if you have another means of getting these extra SA, Shadow Blade is better.

I'd usually recommend a rogue play as a small race for the ability to hide behind smaller objects and medium mounts. Though elven accuracy is always good.

[nickl_2000]

snip
A rogue with Crossbow Expert gets two shots, right? One with action and one with bonus action. (Light and hand crossbow IIRC)

I suppose you could do it that way, but it would be really odd to fire the light crossbow then drop it, draw the hand crossbow and fire it. Light crossbow requires 2 hands. The easier way is to just use the hand crossbow for both shots with XBE.



To the OP, a rogue still gets to use it skills in a dungeon crawl. They find traps, they scout, they listen at doors, and they roll a fistful of dice when they land an attack. They are certainly still fun to play (at least in my opinion)

[KorvinStarmast]

I suppose you could do it that way, but it would be really odd to fire the light crossbow then drop it, draw the hand crossbow and fire it. Light crossbow requires 2 hands. The easier way is to just use the hand crossbow for both shots with XBE. It's simpler just to use the Handcrossbow, yes.
To the OP, a rogue still gets to use it skills in a dungeon crawl. They find traps, they scout, they listen at doors, and they roll a fistful of dice when they land an attack. They are certainly still fun to play (at least in my opinion) Yep.

[stoutstien]

If you have a strong melee Ally the sentinel melee rogue can put out some impressive numbers.

[clash]

To add to what other people are saying, take crossbow expert and you are good to go combat wise.

Also note that skills can be useful in combat if you take expertise in the right ones and in a game that is really combat heavy I would expect diverse combat situations where terrain and obstacles are a plenty.

Take skills like athletics to get around in combat(climbing etc) or grapple/shove. Take stealth for hiding. Take perception for spotting hidden enemies and not being surprised or ambushed. Take acrobatics if the dm will allow avoiding difficult terrain 3.5 tumbling style.

[Agthor]

In combat we found the rogue lacking unless getting support from other classes. Haste and a fighter battle master with Commander's Strike can go along way to do more damage.

We have found the rogue a bit lacking in the scouting department. Especially in a low tier when Expertise do not give a big bonus. Stealth is quite unreliable, broken by no cover or blind sight and can result in a surprised and killed rogue. It is usually safer to scout with a familiar. I guess a kind DM can mitigate this but it would be nice if the rogue got a bit more perks in the scouting department. It feels silly to send forth the party cleric to search the chest for traps.

I also think the rogue should get a bonus on climb as they usually got bad strength.

[Eldariel]

If you enjoy the Rogue playstyle in general, they'll be fine. I consider Rogue one of the weaker classes in the system since their power budget was severely limited due to their basically fully at-will nature but what they do, they do pretty well (though they could really use few extra class features from level 6 up). They have one of the best non-caster abilities in the game (Reliable Talent) and decent skills (which also work in combat, of course) and reasonable offense and defense. They are an all-rounder: they don't particularly shine in any regard but they're pretty good in a lot of ways. So whatever the focus, they have something to give (with the extra ASI and no real need for combat feats they can even get rather nice mileage out of Ritual Caster or such to boost their overall utility; Arcane Trickster with Ritual Caster is overall a very solid inclusion to basically any party), and if you aren't being pushed to the limits of difficulty, you'll be more than fine.

Of course, I would definitely suggest Arcane Trickster unless items and magic items for Thief are plentiful. Being self-sufficient in terms of key buffs is just a huge benefit and it allows you to both, provide lots of extra utility and power. Shadow Blade and Find Familiar slot into their combat pattern perfectly and Haste for the off-turn attack is always a good option to have (though optimally someone else would Haste you). One of the good things about Rogue in combat is their very efficient action economy with good reactions, bonus actions and actions pretty much always available and a great fluidity of approaches they have to fighting (from hide'n'seeking to tank'n'spanking to plain duking it out).

[solidork]

To maximize interesting moment to moment choices in combat as a single class Rogue, play a switch hitter Arcane Trickster with both melee cantrips. Moment to moment you're deciding between dual wielding (good against high AC targets), Booming Blade (good if you think they will move), Greenflame Blade (good if you can get two adjacent foes), attacking from range (safest option, sometimes only way to sneak attack if there are no nearby allies) and casting a spell. Try to avoid specializing to extremely in either melee or ranged and pick feats that give you new, unique abilities like Magic Initiate or Healer.

[Chugger]

Iirc xbow expert feat says only hand xbow can be used for the bonus action shot, to speak to some comments above.

[dragoeniex]

I'm running a lv 9 Arcane Trickster in one game, and a 5 Swashbuckler/6 Battle Master in another right now. Both are pretty solid for combat.

Focusing on the trickster, since she's not multi-classed, the spells are a nice addition. Booming Blade as per what everyone says, Message, illusion trickery, etc. The mostly-combat focus would make it harder to use some of those tricks, but not impossible. And once you hit second level spells, you've got access to Shadow Blade (stacks with Booming, often gives you advantage) and Suggestion-- both of which can be used in combat.

I'm not one to to put energy and resources into Find Familiar on a rogue. Just feels rather tedious to me, and I prefer doing my own stunt work. That said, a lot of people enjoy playing around with it.

Take Longstrider for a free pick if you want to zoom around the field even more.



Regardless of what subclass you go with, I'd recommend Investigation as a solid expertise pick so long as your DM uses that skill for looting on occasion. Also works for finding traps, but really. You're going to be happier you found the legendary dagger of snickerdoodles than you are about the tripwires. Or Acrobatics for escaping those pesky burly enemies and their grapple attempts.



The Swashbuckler/Battle Master is a blast and can pull fun stunts like stabbing and tossing a mook away from its boss, turning around and solo Sneak Attack-ing the boss, then tipping his hat and darting after that mook he just threw because f*** you, you boss-guarding little irritant.

Works better if you go Fighter first and then branch into Rogue after lv 5 or so, however, so this may not be anywhere close to what you're after.

[Vogie]

Another option for a mostly-combat game is the Mastermind Rogue - The ability to toss out advantage to your allies, every turn, could be incredibly fun. Ignore the rest of the features - they're essentially a "vanilla" rogue, but with the ability to Bard out your allies. Incredibly useful for parties with another melee rogue, a paladin, Whispers Bard, or... anyone that hits hard but doesn't have a way to generate their own advantage.