Ranged and Melee Weapon Mastery on the same weapon!

[Melcar]

So...

If I have a knife thrower, who uses daggers, who has taken both Ranged Weapon Mastery and Melee Weapon Mastery can he then recieve bonuses from both feats on a single attack? And if so, what attack would that attack be be? Both melee and ranged or only one of them?

Thanks!

[ixrisor]

Because the feats apply to attack/damage rolls “with a melee/ranged weapon”, rather than “melee/ranged attacks”, they stack. If you had both you would gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with a weapon that was both melee and ranged.

[Necroticplague]

In the most general sense, yes, it's theoretically possible, if you have something that is a ranged and melee weapon for both to apply (as the bonus applies based on weapon type, not weapon's current use).

However, more to the relevant point, based on your scenario: only Melee Weapon Mastery would apply. Daggers are a melee weapon. Throwing them just makes them using a melee weapon to make a ranged attack.

[Melcar]

Because the feats apply to attack/damage rolls “with a melee/ranged weapon”, rather than “melee/ranged attacks”, they stack. If you had both you would gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls with a weapon that was both melee and ranged.

What if the FAQ says no?


Does a spear count as a melee weapon or a ranged
weapon for the purpose of qualifying for the Weapon
Mastery feats (PH2 81–82)?
Both, actually, although you can gain the benefit of only
one feat or the other at any one time, and only when using the
weapon in the appropriate manner.
For example, if you have Melee Weapon Mastery
(piercing), you’d apply the feat’s benefit only when using the
spear in melee, not when throwing it.
How official is the FAQ, and why?



In the most general sense, yes, it's theoretically possible, if you have something that is a ranged and melee weapon for both to apply (as the bonus applies based on weapon type, not weapon's current use).

However, more to the relevant point, based on your scenario: only Melee Weapon Mastery would apply. Daggers are a melee weapon. Throwing them just makes them using a melee weapon to make a ranged attack.


"Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories."

So a dagger is not a ranged weapon per, ...ranged weapons are thrown weapons...?

[DarkSoul]

You would only benefit from one feat at a time, depending on how you're using your dagger for any given attack. If you can figure out a way to have an attack count as both melee and ranged simultaneously, then both can apply.

Without book diving, the most likely method to achieve something like this would be Bloodstorm Blade levels.

[ixrisor]

You would only benefit from one feat at a time, depending on how you're using your dagger for any given attack. If you can figure out a way to have an attack count as both melee and ranged simultaneously, then both can apply.

It applies based on the weapon classification, not on the attack classification, therefore only the weapon need be melee and ranged, rather than the attack being melee and ranged. As far as I know, a dagger is both a ranged weapon, as it can be thrown, and a melee weapon.

[Silly Name]

So a dagger is not a ranged weapon per, ...ranged weapons are thrown weapons...?

Just for the sake of the argument, the complete sentence is "ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee". This includes bows, javelins, etc.

Daggers are effective in melee, and can also be thrown. That doesn't make them ranged weapons (compare the javelin - if used to make melee attacks, it is fundamentally treated as an improvised weapon).

[Saintheart]

Just for the sake of the argument, the complete sentence is "ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee". This includes bows, javelins, etc.

Daggers are effective in melee, and can also be thrown. That doesn't make them ranged weapons (compare the javelin - if used to make melee attacks, it is fundamentally treated as an improvised weapon).

The perennial issue on that assertion is that the sentence can be read two ways.

Reading One:


ranged weapons are:
(a) thrown weapons; or
(b) projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Reading Two:


ranged weapons are
(a) thrown weapons; or
(b) projectile weapons
that are not effective in melee.

Of these two readings, it's Reading One that is much more likely to have been intended when it comes to daggers in particular, since in the PHB that originates it, at pages 112-114, the dagger is explicitly referred to as an example of a thrown weapon.

We already have the Rules Compendium edition which provides that daggers bridge the categories of melee and ranged weapons. Finally, Skip Williams in WOTC's Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070710a) articles indicates:

To determine if a weapon is suitable for ranged attacks, check the weapon's description and Table 7-5 in the Player's Handbook (or the equivalent in the rulebook where you found the weapon). Most ranged weapons are clearly labeled as such. Melee weapons suitable for throwing have range increments in their entries.
In a subsequent part of the same series (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070717a), Skip goes on to add specifically about daggers:

Dagger: A dagger is one of several thrown weapons that you can use in melee or at range. It works just like a melee weapon when you use it in a melee attack. When you chuck the dagger at a target, you treat it as a thrown weapon. Use your Dexterity modifier for the attack roll when you throw it, and then use your Strength modifier for the damage roll if your attack hits. When you make a ranged attack by throwing a dagger, the act provokes attacks of opportunity, as noted in Part One, even though you can make melee attacks with the dagger that do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

That is, it's simply easier and better to count the dagger as both a melee and ranged weapon. I've yet to see how gamebreaking it is to actually be able to let the fighter get the benefit of both ranged and melee weapon mastery out of a piddling dagger compared to the sort of absurd RAW fancies that 3.5 "permits" in the field of wizards and clerics. Good grief, people. It's an extra +2 to attack and damage when you're necessarily playing at level 8 and above, does anyone really think the Tier Ones are going to be threatened by that?

[DarkSoul]

It's an extra +2 to attack and damage when you're necessarily playing at level 8 and above, does anyone really think the Tier Ones are going to be threatened by that?Level 8+ with most likely at least 4 fighter levels, no less.

So along this line of thinking; is there anything that would make a DM think twice about allowing both feats to apply to thrown weapon attacks? The Throw Anything feat might allow some unexpected interaction, I suppose.

[Saintheart]

Level 8+ with most likely at least 4 fighter levels, no less.

So along this line of thinking; is there anything that would make a DM think twice about allowing both feats to apply to thrown weapon attacks? The Throw Anything feat might allow some unexpected interaction, I suppose.

Maybe, but:
(a) Throw Anything isn't exactly worldbreaking beyond the fact you can go Jackie Chan on an opponent. A 10 foot range increment means you're taking -6 to even hurl something out to sneak attack range.
(b) Unless you waste another feat on Quick Draw and invest in archery, it's only one thrown attack per round. And indeed if you try to hurl a two-handed weapon, it's a full round action.

[bean illus]

I don't know about RAI but, isn't an elvencraft bowstaff both melee and ranged?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The question is more or less moot because both feats are terrible?

[DarkSoul]

I don't know about RAI but, isn't an elvencraft bowstaff both melee and ranged?No, it's a bow and a club or quarterstaff.

[heavyfuel]

A dagger is definitely not a ranged weapon. It's under the "light melee weapons" table and the weapons page on the SRD even mentions "melee weapons that don't have a range increment", clearly meaning that melee weapons can still have range increments and they don't stop being melee weapons.


The question is more or less moot because both feats are terrible?

The feat is actually pretty good as far as martial combat oriented feats go. If your statement was about martials being terrible in 3.5, which I agree, then it's still not moot because some people like playing martials despite them sucking.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The feat is actually pretty good as far as martial combat oriented feats go. If your statement was about martials being terrible in 3.5, which I agree, then it's still not moot because some people like playing martials despite them sucking.It requires a minimum of level 8, at which point casters are getting stuff like polymorph and black tentacles. Fighters who spend most of their feats qualifying for one of these gain...+2 to attack and damage. Woo. Alternatively, they could gain Leadership or Ancestral Relic or Shock Trooper or Draconic Aura: Vigor or Improved Trip or any number of other feats, all of which are vastly more powerful, more useful, and more interesting.

And to add insult to injury, the prereq feats are also crap, leaving them even more in the hole.

[heavyfuel]

It requires a minimum of level 8, at which point casters are getting stuff like polymorph and black tentacles.

Are you really arguing that the feat is bad because spellcasters are better? Stating caster superiority like it's a brand new thought doesn't make the feat moot.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are you really arguing that the feat is bad because spellcasters are better? Stating caster superiority like it's a brand new thought doesn't make the feat moot.It's a bad feat, straight-up. Notice the rest of my post and how I gave examples of good feats that would be worthwhile to get at level 8+? Those are examples of feats that would work for a fighter, even in a group with black tentacles and polymorph. +2 to attack and damage is just plain bad. That's something you'd get at level 1; having the +8 BAB restrictions along with other crap feats is just insulting.

[heavyfuel]

I've picked this feat for a level 8 ranged martial character before. I took it despite knowing of all the feats you've mentioned.

If you really want the extra accuracy and damage, you'll be hard-pressed for finding something better that fits a pure martial.

Now, I think that's more than enough derailing

[Silly Name]

Are you really arguing that the feat is bad because spellcasters are better? Stating caster superiority like it's a brand new thought doesn't make the feat moot.

IMHO, Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery are poorly designed feats because they're the same old +X to thing. Those feats are boring, not really that powerful considering their requirements, and I agree with MaxiDurarity that I'd rather pick feats that let me do things rather than making me marginally better at basic attacks.

[Melcar]

Ignoring whether or not its a good feat, or whether or not dagger is a ranged weapon, what are people's thoughts on the fact that the FAQ says you cant combine them, because the feats apply based on attack type (ranged vs melee), not damage type? The FAQ seems to contradict the wording of the feat, but what are peoples thoughts on this?

[Darg]

A dagger is definitely not a ranged weapon. It's under the "light melee weapons" table and the weapons page on the SRD even mentions "melee weapons that don't have a range increment", clearly meaning that melee weapons can still have range increments and they don't stop being melee weapons.



The feat is actually pretty good as far as martial combat oriented feats go. If your statement was about martials being terrible in 3.5, which I agree, then it's still not moot because some people like playing martials despite them sucking.

If you want to take it so RAW, ranged attacks can only be made by ranged weapons. So by RAW if melee thrown weapons aren't ranged weapons then it doesn't matter that they have a range increment; they can't be thrown as a ranged attack unless one has the throw anything feat which came out after the PHB. That is unless you want to say they are thrown as melee attacks which has repercussions.

[mabriss lethe]

I suppose you could go all in on this idea, but instead of a dagger, what about using javelins in conjunction with the Tormtor School feat from DotU?

Tormtor school basics:
-Use javelin in melee without penalty
-get a +1 untyped damage bonus to javelin attacks
-after dealing damage with a javelin in melee, you can throw it as a swift action (a poor man's cleave option)