zero to hero how fast?

[Mordante]

Hi all,

This might have been asked a million times before. But how fast do you as a player expect to gain levels, wealth, notoriety/fame?

When people on this forum start a topic for creating a new character I see that they often have a path set out from level 1 to level 20. That made me think. Do people expect to reach level 20 and if so how quickly? Or is the lvl20 goal strictly theoretical?

So what do you expect in a game? How fast do expect to gain levels. It seems most characters would be between level 4 and level 12. Then why focus on what you will be when you reach 20?

Now that I think about it wealth as well. Do you think a lvl10+ character should have a house/castle or something. Would you expect that your level 12, 14, 16 character is famous/well known?

As a part time DM I like to know what people sort of expect. I know that every group is different but still some ideas are welcome.

[CharonsHelper]

It would depend largely upon the setting. In the Forgotten Realms, characters level 15+ seem to be behind every bush. On the other hand, 3.5 Eberron made it clear that starting around level 5-6, characters start gaining renown as bad-donkeys, and there are only a handful of named characters in the entire setting at levels 12+.

I actually think that the focus upon what a character will look like at level 20 is almost entirely theoretical. I've only had one campaign ever get into the teens, and in that campaign we started at level 6 AND had a 3 year time-skip where the PCs were being fed energy by a creepy ally, pushing them from 11ish up to 14ish (it was more than a decade ago - so I don't remember the specifics). I think that the campaign ended when the PCs were about level 17. (Fortunately for me the DM, it didn't get too crazy since the only primary caster had gone Mystic Theurge, so while he had spells coming out of his ears, I think that he was maxing out at spell level 7.)

I don't think that I've had any other campaign get into the double-digits. Which is actually fine with me, as I find that 3.x/PF tends to start breaking down around level 9-10 anyway. (Hence the reason for the proponents of E6 or E8 play.)

[Kurald Galain]

Do people expect to reach level 20 and if so how quickly? Or is the lvl20 goal strictly theoretical?
You can do some math on that. How often do you play? How often do you level?
If you play once every three weeks (which strikes me as a reasonable average if you're not a student any more), and level every five sessions on average (you level every three sessions in PFS, and in my experience most "regular" campaigns are slower than that)...

...then it will take you 285 weeks to get to level 20; or about five and a half years.

Now clearly numbers vary from person to person. But it's not all that hard to see that the overwhelming majority of characters will never get anywhere near level 20. Statistics from WOTC and Paizo suggest the same.


It seems most characters would be between level 4 and level 12.Yep.

That's also because (to semi-experienced players) very low levels are boring, so campaigns either start a bit higher or speed up the first couple levels. And as everybody on the forum will tell you, the game has balance issues at higher levels, so campaigns tend to stop or grind to a halt somewhere above 10. Or the story is finished, or the GM gets burned out, or the group falls apart over real life issues.

[Quertus]

Man, I miss the 2e days. In 3e? I expect a dedicated party with players who know how to play quickly can easily level every session or two, given sessions of sufficient length.

And, no, level 20 isn't the goal - it's more the halfway point. The goal is to slay and replace the gods. That's when the real game can finally get started. :smallwink:

[Eldonauran]

This might have been asked a million times before. But how fast do you as a player expect to gain levels, wealth, notoriety/fame?
My expectations depend on the kind of game we are playing. Ideally, I'd like to level up/shop/downtime every fourth session or so. Starting level really doesn't matter to me as I enjoy the game at any particular level. I do enjoy the slow burn games, where you start at level one and climb to the very top, finger by finger. I've played in a number of 1-20 games, and slightly less that have gone beyond level 20. I've run a few games where the characters go to beyond level 20. I usually start players off at level 2. Usually with PC class levels, sometimes with NPC class levels. It is only with new players that I am introducing into the game that I bother with level 1 play.

[heavyfuel]

Here's how the math works out in my games.

I play about twice a month (theoretically, it's once a week, but adult life gets in the way) and we level up roughly every 4 sessions.

So that's one level for every two months. Whenever we do play from level 1, we usually speed level until 3 in 2 or three sessions, so this leaves us with 17 levels over 34 months, plus to more months for session 0 and lvs 1-3.

So, about three years? This sounds about right.

Of course, we no longer play campaigns that go from 1 to 20 because, again, adult life. My friends and I can't predict our futures three years in advance. Are we still going to be living in the same city? Will our jobs allow us to schedule games with 3 other people who all also have their own schedule? Who knows.

So yeah, you have a great point. Most character will never reach double digit levels. Worrying about high levels is mostly TO.

Personally, my character mostly follow this pattern:

Lv 1-2: I don't care if they suck
Lv 3-5: They must be decent at their job
Lv 6: They must be working perfectly as intended
Lv 7+: Bonus territory

[Silly Name]

On builds from 1 to 20: I think most of the time when I plan a build, the higher level tend to be theoretical, but it helps to have a progression plan sketched down, especially if you want to access a class or feat or want an item that needs to be cleared up with the DM or may require some roleplaying to qualify for. For that reason, I don't like builds that come online in the later levels, and try to always get the most out of feats and class levels.

As how fast I expect to level, I think it's best to think in terms of sessions. Once every two or three sessions seems like a good rate to me, as that allows players to get familiar and comfortable with their new tools and powers (and how they interact with other players') before gaining more. Of course, at lower levels you can speed it up to every session or two, since the "learning curve" is much quicker and less complex.

[Remuko]

When people on this forum start a topic for creating a new character I see that they often have a path set out from level 1 to level 20. That made me think. Do people expect to reach level 20 and if so how quickly? Or is the lvl20 goal strictly theoretical?

Part of this is because how the base rules of the game work. Retraining rules are variant rules IIRC. In most games your build choices are locked in. The point of planning a 1-20 is that you dont know how far you will go, but if you go that far, you usually need to start laying the groundwork at lvl 1-3 or you will not be able to get into the PrCs ect you want to.

[Kurald Galain]

I tend to plan builds to level 10 or so (and plan further if and when we actually get that high). I do expect builds to be fully functional by level five at the latest, so I dislike builds that rely on or require a high-level ability like duskblade full channeling


Part of this is because how the base rules of the game work. Retraining rules are variant rules IIRC. In most games your build choices are locked in. The point of planning a 1-20 is that you dont know how far you will go, but if you go that far, you usually need to start laying the groundwork at lvl 1-3 or you will not be able to get into the PrCs ect you want to.
Thankfully none of that is the case in Pathfinder.

[heavyfuel]

Retraining rules are variant rules IIRC.

They're only "variant" in the sense that they're not core. Nowhere does the PHB 2 state that they are a Variant rule like UA does with Gestalt characters, for example.

Retraning rules are more akin to weapon-like spells rules.

[Morty_Jhones]

I agree with most here it seems.

Most campains are ended within 3 or 4 levels or real life gets in the way. I have had campains go for longer but that was the exception rather than the rule and that was only cuss there was practically no combat and it was all objective based exp.

over all i would genraly be exspecting to level every 3rd seashion depending on how puzzel heavy the adaventure is.
Puzzels and traps tend to offer the most in relation to time vs Exp for solving them, where as big combats offer loads of potental exp in kills but can get bogged down and take hours.

[H_H_F_F]

I have played and DMd many games that ended around level 8-12, and a few that ended around 20. I tend to agree that the focus on 20th level is very theoretical.

Regarding your wealth-fame question: depends on the campaign, hugely. A game focusing on heroes adventuring around a few small towns feels weird if no one knows who you are by level 7. On the other hand, I'm DMing a game right now where the characters are soldiers. They're almost level 14. They only got recognized as important elite soldiers by the high command at level 8, only got a say in things around level 11, and only started to get recognized by the enemy very recently - and outside that, no one has any clue who they are. Just make sure your characters feel like they "fit" in the world and everything will be fine, no matter how famous they are. If you're getting to "Someone stole your sweetroll" territory, you know you messed up.

[Vaern]

The DMG's exp reward system expects that a party of 4 players overcoming challenges appropriate for their level will level up about once every 13 encounters.
Encounters don't just mean combat, of course. Traps, puzzles, and social situations may be considered challenges, and reaching or overcoming key points in a story may also grant exp.
If your group gets together once a week and hits 3 or 4 encounters a session you can gain a level a month. If you manage to get rewards for a half dozen encounters a week you're looking a level 20 in less than a year. As far as in-game time from the character's perspective, they could potentially hit epic levels in a matter of days if your DM threw encounters at you aggressively enough.

[Mordante]

I tend to agree with most of the comments so far. Which is a bit of a surprise to be honest. Since most post about builds I see here are focused on high level characters. Sometimes even a few "dead" levels when a feat or something is chosen, just to unlock a PrC at lvl 12+ or even higher.

What I notice at higher levels (my party is lvl16) is that everything takes a lot longer because all the players have more options. Even an attack with a simple fighter takes a long time and lots of die rolls. This is boring me a bit. Yes it's fun to see high damage output but it still is a bit boring waiting for 4 other players to finished whatever they are doing.

The party has been going on for a lot longer then I'm part of it. I just looked it up I joined 3 years ago, we gained I think 1 level, 15 to 16 and I think it took them 10 years to go from 1 to 15 if not longer. A bit faster pace might be nice.

Hopefully my fighter can retire soon running a small inn in some insignificant town.

[Asmotherion]

Depends heavyly on the DM and how generous they are with XP.

A good rule of thumb is, to reach your next level you'll need to go through a number of sessions equal to your current level.

For example, a Lv1 Character would go to level 2 in one session, wile a Level 10 character would need around 10 sessions.

That said, if your DM is more RP focused, he may not give combat XP and use milestones or some other form of Level Up variant rule.

And, if your DM is extreamly permisive, it is theoretically entirelly possible to go from Level 1-20 in a couple sessions by RAW.

[clarkcd]

In my experience playing one 4 hour session a week I would expect my players to gain a level every 3 weeks. This means over the course of a campaign where the end is level 20 it would take my players 60 weeks to reach there. The current campaign I expect will wrap up about level 15, or 45 weeks. With the inevitable missing of weeks due to real life intervening it will probably last over a year.

I run my games in the FR so this will be specific to that. In the current game I'm running the players are in a town of about 1000 people. In that town there are about 20 people of level 3 or higher. That means by level 3 they should be in the top 2 percent of power in the small town, making them relatively well known. As they move on to larger deeds and gain levels they should be known in the immediate region, barring large cities, by level 6. By level 10 they should have done enough that even large cities are no longer places where they can remain anonymous. By level 15 they should be heroes, or villains if it's that campaign, to virtually anyone in the region.

Generally speaking with a campaign setting as large as the FR unless the players are doing something truly Faerun shattering, or are doing a lot of things in a lot of places, the common people in far off places would have no idea who the players are. Higher level characters, however, would have both the resources and desire to find out about powerful characters doing powerful things.

[Crake]

Man, I miss the 2e days. In 3e? I expect a dedicated party with players who know how to play quickly can easily level every session or two, given sessions of sufficient length.

If players are leveling this fast, and you don't like it... you're the DM, you can just give them less xp for their encounters.

[Mordante]

In my experience playing one 4 hour session a week I would expect my players to gain a level every 3 weeks. This means over the course of a campaign where the end is level 20 it would take my players 60 weeks to reach there. The current campaign I expect will wrap up about level 15, or 45 weeks. With the inevitable missing of weeks due to real life intervening it will probably last over a year.

I run my games in the FR so this will be specific to that. In the current game I'm running the players are in a town of about 1000 people. In that town there are about 20 people of level 3 or higher. That means by level 3 they should be in the top 2 percent of power in the small town, making them relatively well known. As they move on to larger deeds and gain levels they should be known in the immediate region, barring large cities, by level 6. By level 10 they should have done enough that even large cities are no longer places where they can remain anonymous. By level 15 they should be heroes, or villains if it's that campaign, to virtually anyone in the region.

Generally speaking with a campaign setting as large as the FR unless the players are doing something truly Faerun shattering, or are doing a lot of things in a lot of places, the common people in far off places would have no idea who the players are. Higher level characters, however, would have both the resources and desire to find out about powerful characters doing powerful things.

Interesting.

My level 16 almost level 17 character is an absolute nobody. Might be because we play in a custom/home brew world. Outside of the party there is I think no one that know my fighter. But I could be mistaken. My DM might have sneaky plans.

[Alcore]

I don't like level 20. I don't like level 10. I don't like players and DMs that believe that low level must be a slog to get to the good part as that mentality bleeds into the game; they turn it into a slog regardless of other people at the table. A good DM can make any encounter or quest great fun.


Level 5 seems about right. Sure, I'll be a small folk hero of some village or even the surrounding countryside for a weeks walk in any direction. Sure, my character will be able to tell 'epic' tales of goblin chiefs and a single largish dragon. Sure, my character will marry early and retire...

What is wrong with that?



Some always want more. Go ahead. I'll be back here.

[CharonsHelper]

Level 5 seems about right. Sure, I'll be a small folk hero of some village or even the surrounding countryside for a weeks walk in any direction. Sure, my character will be able to tell 'epic' tales of goblin chiefs and a single largish dragon. Sure, my character will marry early and retire...


I would say that levels 4-8 are the sweet spot for 3.x/PF. By level 4 all of the primary casters have access to level 2 spells, and the PCs aren't squishy enough to die to a (un)lucky crit. Starting at 9 the caster/martial disparity begins to set in significantly, and with teleport and other such tools GMing gets much trickier. And characters/monsters start to get complex enough to slow down combat.

Above and below the sweet spot are both fun in different ways (though I certainly wouldn't want to start a campaign at 9+, as I wouldn't feel like I'd earned that demi-god level power, which is where a lot of the fun is there), but I'd still say that 4-8 is the sweet spot.

[SirNibbles]

Hi all,

This might have been asked a million times before. But how fast do you as a player expect to gain levels, wealth, notoriety/fame?

When people on this forum start a topic for creating a new character I see that they often have a path set out from level 1 to level 20. That made me think. Do people expect to reach level 20 and if so how quickly? Or is the lvl20 goal strictly theoretical?

So what do you expect in a game? How fast do expect to gain levels. It seems most characters would be between level 4 and level 12. Then why focus on what you will be when you reach 20?

Now that I think about it wealth as well. Do you think a lvl10+ character should have a house/castle or something. Would you expect that your level 12, 14, 16 character is famous/well known?

As a part time DM I like to know what people sort of expect. I know that every group is different but still some ideas are welcome.

How quickly characters gain levels depends on how much time they spend on leveling (adventuring and training). Realistically, adventuring every single day would get tiring. Let's say an expedition up a snowy mountain to kill whatever enemy and/or recover whatever person/item/etc. takes the characters a week of total time to travel to the location, complete the quest, and travel back. I can assure you that after spending a week out in the wilderness, carrying heavy loads and freezing, the last thing you want to do is go out again immediately. After their 7 day mission, let's say the party takes two days to relax and recuperate- the latter being even more important in a setting with less or no magical healing. After that, they might need to repair gear (though I've never seen anyone keep track of the HP of their weapons or armour) or reacquire consumables, and they may take some time (a day or two) to train, whatever that entails for their class.

That is the absolute minimum (realistic) amount of downtime for an adventurer (excepting certain scenarios where time is of the essence such that the adventurers must forego rest). I would wager that most adventurers would take even more time off, unless adventuring is their entire life- that is to say, they have no family, no land/farm, no business, etc. If adventurers have these things, they must spend time to tend to them. Adventuring is a dangerous pursuit and the pay compared to the earnings of a commoner reflects this. Thus, an adventurer may choose only to go out and do quests in order to acquire extra wealth. This is not necessarily the totality of adventurers, but it's likely a significant portion of them would behave this way- the adventurer who grinds out quest after quest should be a rarity.

So, at most, an adventurer is doing quests 65% of the time, much of which may be spent travelling (especially at lower levels). At that rate, I think taking around 3-6 months to level up would be fair. On the other end of the spectrum, you could be seeing 1-2 years between levels.

This is, of course, just my opinion on how people actually behave and how long it takes to improve at something. The rules allow for much faster leveling if you are constantly grinding out encounters of an appropriate CL.

__

Wealth, leveling to 20, and fame to come later.

[Quertus]

So, iirc, I answered "levels", but not "wealth" or "notoriety/fame".

And that's because there's rules for the one, but not the other two.

I think that, if, as you level, the GM provides the party with significantly *less* than the average expected WBL, it messes with game balance, and hurts muggles disproportionately. So that's probably bad. And it's (fairly) easy to trade time and/or XP for GP, and push that balance higher.

Fame? Depends entirely on what the party does… and how their PR is spun. Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, has saved over 100 worlds… but his *reputation* leads most beings to underestimate him, as he is known as a tactically inept academic who is more concerned with selling books and paid speaking events than anything of any importance.

(EDIT: oh, and for the *title*? "Zero to hero" should last, at most, half a session. I'm here to play heroes, not zero-level commoners.)


And, if your DM is extreamly permisive, it is theoretically entirelly possible to go from Level 1-20 in a couple sessions by RAW.

Gotta love how "following the rules" is spun as "extremely permissive". "If the banker is extremely permissive, it is theoretically possible to collect $200 when you pass 'Go'. Extremely permissive police may allow you to travel up to 25 MPH on main streets within town limits. Extremely permissive judges may allow you to play with as few as 40 cards in MtG sealed deck events.". :smallamused:


If players are leveling this fast, and you don't like it... you're the DM, you can just give them less xp for their encounters.

That would be breaking the rules. And we wouldn't want that, now would we?


I don't like level 20. I don't like level 10. I don't like players and DMs that believe that low level must be a slog to get to the good part as that mentality bleeds into the game; they turn it into a slog regardless of other people at the table. A good DM can make any encounter or quest great fun.

Agreed. A good GM - and a good group - can make level 10-20 fun.

And that's part of why I like high level - it makes much more obvious what needs to be fixed to make the group a good group.


Level 5 seems about right. Sure, I'll be a small folk hero of some village or even the surrounding countryside for a weeks walk in any direction. Sure, my character will be able to tell 'epic' tales of goblin chiefs and a single largish dragon. Sure, my character will marry early and retire...

What is wrong with that?

Let martials have nice things. I like at least level 6, to give Fighters their Iterative Attacks.

Otherwise, no, nothing wrong with that. :smallwink:

[Efrate]

I think it depends on how they quest and advertise. You could very easily in a more wilderness focused dungeon delving style game never get any notable fame.

Or you do what my wizard is an actively court fame, by bribing the court bard to watch and then make a song as he used the mcguffin to summon a giant dracolich right outside town and then instantly finish the plot ritual to permanently kill it. So he can honestly say "I killed a dracolich, with a single spell." and everyone knows of him. He also made sure everyone knows his soldier/minion was responsible for taking out the demon lords that were rampaging. All while working directly for the crown.

[Yahzi Coyote]

I've been running a campaign that started in December of 2017 (at 0th level!). We play about once a month, usually for six hours or so. They've just now all hit 5th level. They are trying to build a castle and are technically lords though they only have about 60 peasants. (It's described in the World of Prime Campaign Journal thread).

[Mordante]

So, iirc, I answered "levels", but not "wealth" or "notoriety/fame".

And that's because there's rules for the one, but not the other two.

I think that, if, as you level, the GM provides the party with significantly *less* than the average expected WBL, it messes with game balance, and hurts muggles disproportionately. So that's probably bad. And it's (fairly) easy to trade time and/or XP for GP, and push that balance higher.

Fame? Depends entirely on what the party does… and how their PR is spun. Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, has saved over 100 worlds… but his *reputation* leads most beings to underestimate him, as he is known as a tactically inept academic who is more concerned with selling books and paid speaking events than anything of any importance.

(EDIT: oh, and for the *title*? "Zero to hero" should last, at most, half a session. I'm here to play heroes, not zero-level commoners.)

Gotta love how "following the rules" is spun as "extremely permissive". "If the banker is extremely permissive, it is theoretically possible to collect $200 when you pass 'Go'. Extremely permissive police may allow you to travel up to 25 MPH on main streets within town limits. Extremely permissive judges may allow you to play with as few as 40 cards in MtG sealed deck events.". :smallamused:

That would be breaking the rules. And we wouldn't want that, now would we?

Agreed. A good GM - and a good group - can make level 10-20 fun.

And that's part of why I like high level - it makes much more obvious what needs to be fixed to make the group a good group.

Let martials have nice things. I like at least level 6, to give Fighters their Iterative Attacks.

Otherwise, no, nothing wrong with that. :smallwink:

The WBL is a guide not a rule. I am not aware of any DM who is concerned about WBL. The party should be balanced and if that means that one party has a lot more toys then an other.

[Silly Name]

The WBL is a guide not a rule. I am not aware of any DM who is concerned about WBL. The party should be balanced and if that means that one party has a lot more toys then an other.

While its true that WBL is a guideline and not an hard and fast rule, it should be kept in mind that the system assumes some things based on WBL, such as having magic weapons to bypass DR, items that grant flying, bonuses to AC or certain rolls, etc.

I am more of a fan of magic items that let you do new things rather than simply giving boosts to your stats and rolls, but the latter are implicitly a necessity for engaging with higher-level challenges.

EDIT: Obviously a DM can tailor the encounters to a campaign where WBL is lower or higher than standard, but lowering the PC's wealth without accounting how this will change encounters can really mess with how things work.

[denthor]

So from 1997 to now.

1 14th level played by me 11th level played by me.

Played by others 1 14th level,

All started at 1st level.

Just for reference

[sreservoir]

I would say that levels 4-8 are the sweet spot for 3.x/PF. By level 4 all of the primary casters have access to level 2 spells, and the PCs aren't squishy enough to die to a (un)lucky crit. Starting at 9 the caster/martial disparity begins to set in significantly, and with teleport and other such tools GMing gets much trickier. And characters/monsters start to get complex enough to slow down combat

It's a bit tricky. There are a few funky 3rd-level spells. Animate dead (Clr 3—Death Master 2, actually, but that's not right in the PHB), er, lets you generate quite a lot of undead under your control (plus your rebuke limit). Fly and gaseous form (along with wild shape and the warlock's fell flight invocation at level 6) are essentially you-must-be-this-tall-to-ride. Extended rope trick is a surprisingly powerful defense against loads of things it probably shouldn't be. There are some problems, but at least they're mostly local ones.

But 7th level, along with general access to 4th-level spells is a pretty major breaking point: dimension door (sor/wiz 4, wu jen 4, a bunch of domains 4, trapsmith 2) becomes widely available. Dimension door being able to bring multiple creatures (caster + at least two, but 3 is feasible with any caster level boost (e.g. dimensional jaunt (+1, CM 41), boots of big stepping (+2, MIC 76), or suffer the flesh (+5, MoE 103) are ... relatively affordable) across a fairly long range (Long range is 720 ft at CL 8, and again you can pump your CL up) without requiring line of sight means that, basically at any moment, someone from two football fields away (for context, an area the size of Buckingham palace grounds—the range for, say, a team of assassins with a dedicated taxi wizard is approximately the Vatican) can pop in with two friends and probably get a surprise round on you. The only lower-level teleport that comes close is dimension leap (sor/wiz 2, MoE 95), and that one doesn't bring friends (and 10 ft/level is a lot less range). Dimension door pretty much takes teleport tactics outside the realm of what you can defend against with mundane paranoia. The implications are both campaign- and possibly setting-breaking.

In some ways, dimension door is better than teleport at this—sure, you have to get in range first, but it doesn't have teleport's pesky "Areas of strong physical or magical energy" clause (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?539357-Security-in-a-world-of-scry-and-die-for-the-general-public&p=22497665&viewfull=1#post22497665), you always arrive on target (rather, the exact spot you desired, and there's no concept of being off-target), and you can designate your destination by direction so you don't necessarily even need to scry. Speaking of scrying, scrying (bard 3, druid 4, sor/wiz 4, wu jen 4, Oracle 4, Divination 4) also becomes widely available at this level. It's a lot easier to deny or counter than dimension door, and the thing it does is kind of substitutable with clairvoyance and/or mundane information-gathering when you're using dimension door instead of teleport anyway, but it could be a usefully dangerous option, especially in player hands.

This is also the level where lesser planar ally becomes available (and also at level 8, lesser planar binding becomes available off the demonlogist list (standard entry 5/3), which is ... even more problematic). While the fact that the creature is of your deity's choice wards off the worst of it, there's at least one deity (Vecna) who is known (CD 118) to send nightmares, and nightmares can use astral projection (and etherealness, incidentally) at will. Oops.

But the nightmare at least has those abilities as Su; succubi (Lolth, Tiamat) and bearded devils (Hextor, Kurtulmak) have greater teleport as an SLA, that means they can collaborate to create magic items with it (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites). Even if those items retain the self+50 pounds limitations, they're still CL 12 scrolls of greater teleport that anyone who can make a DC 32 UMD check (perhaps after a few castings of divine insight/guidance of the avatar/skill enhancement/wieldskill or whatnot) can use for long-distance travel if it's necessarily enough to be worth ... well, it takes three days to make the scroll, so in principle you can get the fiend to help with at least two scrolls per casting of lesser planar ally, which will run 3k gp (making scroll is pretty nonhazardous) + 100 xp, so ~4k? (Speaking of which, there's a funny article in Dragon #350 that says Wee Jas has a (unique—but you might be able to learn her name to request her?) [Lawful] succubus for a planar ally, who might be up for some scroll-making.)

Then there's the gods who send jann (Boccob, Olidammara). Jann have plane shift at will as an SLA, limited to elemental + Astral + Material planes, but they explicitly can bring up other creatures. First of all means they can take a group of seven somewhere reasonably safe, and then plane shift back to the Material, landing 5d% miles from the intended destination (which, okay, you'll need to communicate to the janni, but like, you're not getting precise accuracy anyway so just show them a map). For long-distance travel, that's sort of workable.
But wait, there's more: plane shift as an SLA means jann can help create portable holes, and that actually vastly simplifies long-distance travel since then you can have a bunch of people climb into a portable hole, and the hole to a mystic ranger (tree stride, swamp stride, frostfell slide), Elf domain cleric (tree stride), druid (frostfell slide), wizard (fire stride), or just lantern archon/succubus/bearded devil (greater teleport)

(Also, if you can make more specific requests for planar allies, or your Good deity can take a hint, hollyphants (BoED 176) and movanic devas (FF 56) have raise dead as an SLA.)

As an aside, I thought the breakage started at 3rd-level spells, with the sanctified spell create lantern archon (CoV 54)—quite a bit more obscure, but lantern archons have the same greater teleport ability as the fiends, or so I thought. But as it turns out, archon teleportation is (Su), not spell-like, so no problem there!

I'm sure we could dig up a few 3rd-level spells that actually do rip the game apart, too. But it's at 4th level that the game-breakers are iconic, blatant, and staring you in the face on PHB page 194.

[Quertus]

The WBL is a guide not a rule. I am not aware of any DM who is concerned about WBL. The party should be balanced and if that means that one party has a lot more toys then an other.

I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying that the GM should hand cap a pity artifact for the BBEG fight, that the GM should accelerate / throttle the party's loot based on how well they're doing, or something else entirely?

And I've met both GMs who were concerned about WBL, and ones who should have been.


While its true that WBL is a guideline and not an hard and fast rule, it should be kept in mind that the system assumes some things based on WBL, such as having magic weapons to bypass DR, items that grant flying, bonuses to AC or certain rolls, etc.

I am more of a fan of magic items that let you do new things rather than simply giving boosts to your stats and rolls, but the latter are implicitly a necessity for engaging with higher-level challenges.

EDIT: Obviously a DM can tailor the encounters to a campaign where WBL is lower or higher than standard, but lowering the PC's wealth without accounting how this will change encounters can really mess with how things work.

Agreed. But it's prohibitively rare, IME, to find a GM who can and will do a good job with such modifications to encounters.


It's a bit tricky. There are a few funky 3rd-level spells. Animate dead (Clr 3—Death Master 2, actually, but that's not right in the PHB), er, lets you generate quite a lot of undead under your control (plus your rebuke limit).

I'm pretty sure, for the WBL, you could hire much more effective mercenaries and/or mounts and/or slaves. I love Animate Dead, but it really isn't terribly strong in most cases - especially when compared to the alternatives.


But 7th level, along with general access to 4th-level spells is a pretty major breaking point: dimension door (sor/wiz 4, wu jen 4, a bunch of domains 4, trapsmith 2) becomes widely available. Dimension door being able to bring multiple creatures (caster + at least two, but 3 is feasible with any caster level boost (e.g. dimensional jaunt (+1, CM 41), boots of big stepping (+2, MIC 76), or suffer the flesh (+5, MoE 103) are ... relatively affordable) across a fairly long range (Long range is 720 ft at CL 8, and again you can pump your CL up) without requiring line of sight means that, basically at any moment, someone from two football fields away (for context, an area the size of Buckingham palace grounds—the range for, say, a team of assassins with a dedicated taxi wizard is approximately the Vatican) can pop in with two friends and probably get a surprise round on you.

AFB, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot act, and so you've just given them a surprise round on you. Not exactly an optimal assassination plan (unless you're a Jovok).


Fly and gaseous form (along with wild shape and the warlock's fell flight invocation at level 6) are essentially you-must-be-this-tall-to-ride. Extended rope trick is a surprisingly powerful defense against loads of things it probably shouldn't be. There are some problems, but at least they're mostly local ones.


This is also the level where lesser planar ally becomes available (and also at level 8, lesser planar binding becomes available off the demonlogist list (standard entry 5/3), which is ... even more problematic). While the fact that the creature is of your deity's choice wards off the worst of it, there's at least one deity (Vecna) who is known (CD 118) to send nightmares, and nightmares can use astral projection (and etherealness, incidentally) at will. Oops.

But the nightmare at least has those abilities as Su; succubi (Lolth, Tiamat) and bearded devils (Hextor, Kurtulmak) have greater teleport as an SLA, that means they can collaborate to create magic items with it (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites). Even if those items retain the self+50 pounds limitations, they're still CL 12 scrolls of greater teleport that anyone who can make a DC 32 UMD check (perhaps after a few castings of divine insight/guidance of the avatar/skill enhancement/wieldskill or whatnot) can use for long-distance travel if it's necessarily enough to be worth ... well, it takes three days to make the scroll, so in principle you can get the fiend to help with at least two scrolls per casting of lesser planar ally, which will run 3k gp (making scroll is pretty nonhazardous) + 100 xp, so ~4k? (Speaking of which, there's a funny article in Dragon #350 that says Wee Jas has a (unique—but you might be able to learn her name to request her?) [Lawful] succubus for a planar ally, who might be up for some scroll-making.)

Then there's the gods who send jann (Boccob, Olidammara). Jann have plane shift at will as an SLA, limited to elemental + Astral + Material planes, but they explicitly can bring up other creatures. First of all means they can take a group of seven somewhere reasonably safe, and then plane shift back to the Material, landing 5d% miles from the intended destination (which, okay, you'll need to communicate to the janni, but like, you're not getting precise accuracy anyway so just show them a map). For long-distance travel, that's sort of workable.
But wait, there's more: plane shift as an SLA means jann can help create portable holes, and that actually vastly simplifies long-distance travel since then you can have a bunch of people climb into a portable hole, and the hole to a mystic ranger (tree stride, swamp stride, frostfell slide), Elf domain cleric (tree stride), druid (frostfell slide), wizard (fire stride), or just lantern archon/succubus/bearded devil (greater teleport)

(Also, if you can make more specific requests for planar allies, or your Good deity can take a hint, hollyphants (BoED 176) and movanic devas (FF 56) have raise dead as an SLA.)

I'm sure we could dig up a few 3rd-level spells that actually do rip the game apart, too. But it's at 4th level that the game-breakers are iconic, blatant, and staring you in the face on PHB page 194.

You've listed a lot of cool abilities that can *make* a game, but nothing (afaict) that would *break* one. Enough minions - of any stripe - could break the time to take a turn (if you don't create cool automated tools to expedite their rolls), or could break action economy… but hordes of goblins (etc) already do both, so it's no more broken than it already was, IME.

[sreservoir]

AFB, but I'm pretty sure that you cannot act, and so you've just given them a surprise round on you. Not exactly an optimal assassination plan (unless you're a Jovok).

It ends your turn, not that of anyone you're bringing along, oddly. Perhaps it should.

Likely a moot point, though, since you might as well arrive invisible and flying.


You've listed a lot of cool abilities that can *make* a game, but nothing (afaict) that would *break* one.

This is a pretty good take, actually. Guess it kind of shows that they came out of an E6/E8 setting brainstorm, huh.

It's kind of a matter of perspective. If, as DM, you design the game around this stuff, it's great fun to work out the implications on the setting and come up with countermeasures that major actors will be using.

It qualitatively changes the kinds of adventures it makes sense to run, though.

[Quertus]

It ends your turn, not that of anyone you're bringing along, oddly. Perhaps it should.

Likely a moot point, though, since you might as well arrive invisible and flying.

Invisible is only a +20 to Hide; does nothing vs Listen, Scent, etc. But not ending anyone else's turn... if your next action is to teleport everyone out anyway, I guess it doesn't really slow you down. Huh.


It qualitatively changes the kinds of adventures it makes sense to run, though.

Yup. Or, at least, the types of responses that the PCs can give to any given type of scenario. And - especially for classes (like Wizards and Sorcerers) who can either have or not have those abilities even at higher levels - it gives great replay value / variety to the types of games you can run / types of stories you can tell.

[Mordante]

I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. Are you saying that the GM should hand cap a pity artifact for the BBEG fight, that the GM should accelerate / throttle the party's loot based on how well they're doing, or something else entirely?


What I am saying is that some characters are more dependent on items to perform. Meaning if someone play for example a pure fighter, it will probably need more magic tools compared to a min/max wizard.

[Kurald Galain]

But 7th level, along with general access to 4th-level spells is a pretty major breaking point: dimension door (sor/wiz 4, wu jen 4, a bunch of domains 4, trapsmith 2) becomes widely available.
Fair point about dimension door.

However, your whole stoy about planar allies strikes me as something that (a) almost no table would know about, (b) only works if major deities take orders from mortals, and (c) doesn't apply in other settings than Forgotten Realms. The more reasonable outcome of planar ally is that your deity sends you an imp or something. That means that long-distance travel is still a part of campaigns, not something to insta-skip.

Well, at least Anticipate Teleportation is also level 4. But arguably, certain building materials should exist that block teleportation effects.

[Shirow]

I'm kinda mad at myself for never realizing all this stuff about DD, honestly.

I once ran a game from level 1 to 20, the players were D&D beginners but some of them had played other tabletop games before.
It took 11 years give or take some. For most of the 10s we either met once a month and supplemented it with play by post online.
And the initial 7 players were reduced to 4. Because life happens. Of course none of them had any plans for their build other than the next immediate level. Much like nature, they were tinkering with what they had at hand, not designing end products. The characters were suboptimal at best, but eh.

[vasilidor]

A note about wealth by level: without certain tools in DnD and all of it's D20 variants, the most likely outcome of any scenario is a total party wipe. unless they can run away effectively.