Samurai Fighting Style - Defense vs. GWF Fighting Style

[Rdothodgson]

Hey Everyone,

I'm rolling up a level 6 Half-Orc Samurai for a campaign that will likely go up to level 20.

My weapon of choice will be a Greataxe, and I'm taking Orcish Fury so that when I crit, I get to roll 5D12 once per short rest (3D12 otherwise).

I understand that Defense is generally considered to be the optimal choice as statistically, GWF only yields an average +0.8 to +1.0 damage per D12 weapon dice rolled.

I'm skeptical, however, that the +1 defense will really be beneficial at higher levels when the nasty creatures are getting +14 to hit.

Very torn on this - I recognize that GWF comes into play far less with the Greataxe, but when it does it can result in some pretty big swings of the damage - which seems like it might be more useful against the endgame content than a +1 to AC that will be irrelevant against heavy hitters and creatures that dont target AC.

Your insights are heavily appreciated?

[MaxWilson]

Hey Everyone,

I'm rolling up a level 6 Half-Orc Samurai for a campaign that will likely go up to level 20.

My weapon of choice will be a Greataxe, and I'm taking Orcish Fury so that when I crit, I get to roll 5D12 once per short rest (3D12 otherwise).

I understand that Defense is generally considered to be the optimal choice as statistically, GWF only yields an average +0.8 to +1.0 damage per D12 weapon dice rolled.

I'm skeptical, however, that the +1 defense will really be beneficial at higher levels when the nasty creatures are getting +14 to hit.

Very torn on this - I recognize that GWF comes into play far less with the Greataxe, but when it does it can result in some pretty big swings of the damage - which seems like it might be more useful against the endgame content than a +1 to AC that will be irrelevant against heavy hitters and creatures that dont target AC.

Your insights are heavily appreciated?

AC is not irrelevant even in endgames, especially since you have ways to impose disadvantage on enemies (e.g. knocking them prone for advantage on your attacks, and then backing out of range afterwards so you take an opportunity attack at disadvantage instead of a full attack sequence, since most enemies won't have enough movement to stand AND move back into melee range of you). You can make AC even MORE relevant by taking the Defensive Duelist feat at some point, if you've got Dex 13+, and then drawing a dagger with your object interaction before you take that opportunity attack. Having effectively AC 25 means that even a CR 16 Iron Golem (+13 to hit) will hit you through disadvantage only (0.45^2) 20.25% of the time.

There are other ways to impose disadvantage too, such as Protection From Evil against some enemies, or Holy Aura from a friendly cleric, etc.

Don't give up on AC! It's still an important defense even at high levels! Exactly how important depends on your DM's style, but it's definitely not pointless.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Man, I don't have any numbers to offer, just some personal experience from my games. Common lore says that GWF is better with 2d6 weapon, not 1d12, however you have the exact build where 1d12 weapon is a better choice.

There's nothing more frustrating than crit and roll lots of 1s and 2s in your extra damage rolls -- and GWF would help a lot to mitigate this bad feeling. Although not ideal from a math perspective, it's something to consider. I would give GWF a try.

[MaxWilson]

Man, I don't have any numbers to offer, just some personal experience from my games. Common lore says that GWF is better with 2d6 weapon, not 1d12, however you have the exact build where 1d12 weapon is a better choice.

There's nothing more frustrating than crit and roll lots of 1s and 2s in your extra damage rolls -- and GWF would help a lot to mitigate this bad feeling. Although not ideal from a math perspective, it's something to consider. I would give GWF a try.

It's more rational not to feel bad. Most of your damage comes from static modifiers anyway, and rolling low once in a while is just something that happens, like rolling high. What matters is that you make good decisions with a high expected payoff, on average. Getting unlucky sometimes is just part of the game.

[Droppeddead]

It's more rational not to feel bad. Most of your damage comes from static modifiers anyway

Well, that's not really true. You will get at most 5 points of damage (GWM feat excluded) from a weapon attack. With a greatsword you make on average 7 points of damage and those 7 point can be doubled on a crit.

To answer OPs question, AC is always good and Defence is not bad. Personally I feel that Samurai should be an offensive class which means that GWF feels more appropriate. If you use a greatsword you also double the chance to get to reroll as well. This is especially nice when critting.

It all comes down to personal preference, though.

[Satori01]

Not taking the Defensive Fighting Style is not tantamount to stating AC is irrelevant.

Moderation in all things, even in pursuit of "The Good".

An AC 24 means a 5% increase in being hit, by the Iron Golem
which sounds scary....but the AC 24 character only takes TWO more points of expected damage per round against the Iron Golem, than if their AC was one point higher.

Personally I am not a fan of GWF, I wish the player could reroll any damage roll, not just ones and twos.

The Wild Talent feat in the Psionics U/A (with the Psi Die mechanic) grants an effect that is similar to GWF, and the impact to Final damage is noticeable.

In the aggregate, turning damage rolls of "2" to "5", starts to add up to real damage output over a 14 level span.
Plus like a sugary snack it makes you feel better.

So selecting GWF, won't make you suck too much on it's own.

[MaxWilson]

Well, that's not really true. You will get at most 5 points of damage (GWM feat excluded) from a weapon attack. With a greatsword you make on average 7 points of damage and those 7 point can be doubled on a crit.

I'm not excluding GWM.

[cutlery]

GWF might be fun; it interacts favorably with orcish fury. I'd do those if it fit the character.

However: Since you asked, I assume you are curious how they perform. They aren't very strong options compared to alternatives. The damage increase with GWF is minimal; and lower with a 1d12 weapon. Orcish Fury is disappointing even for a half feat - I'd probably only take it if a half feat was what I needed unless it was really crucial for the build.

I'd consider champion over samurai for this, too; to have more regular shots at a critical. I'd then probably go barbarian after 3 levels of fighter.

You can, of course, play the character as a samurai no matter the classes you take.

[Droppeddead]

I'm not excluding GWM.

But then you are making an unfair comparison since you now rely on more basic class abilities. You should also take into account the higher risk of missing completely and thus making no damage what so ever.

[stoutstien]

If there isn't any rush on this PC the new splat book might have a style for you to pick up.

[MaxWilson]

But then you are making an unfair comparison since you now rely on more basic class abilities. You should also take into account the higher risk of missing completely and thus making no damage what so ever.

Yes, I'm doing all of that, and then concluding that GWF adds very little value. Sorry for not spelling it out in more detail originally--I assumed it was common knowledge--but that's exactly why most of your damage comes from static mods.

[Valmark]

First, unrequested build advice- if you want to crit, you're probably better off going Barbarian/Champion Fighter for additional dice on crits and double the number of crits.

That said, seeing how you're taking a d12 weapon I strongly suggest Defense. On a 2d6 weapon GWF is a no brainer- with my greatsword-wielder character I'm using it all the time for some great results. But a d12 weapon gets way less mileage, while a +1 to AC is always good, no matter the level (unless you have like, 12 AC in which case a 13 won't matter that much).

So, to summarize it, get a 2d6 weapon or take Defense.

By the by, why 5d12? Shouldn't it be 4d12? 1d12 normal+1d12 crit+1d12 savage attacker+1d12 Orcish Fury?

[Chugger]

This is one of those choices where if you play the character enough, you'll at times be glad you picked +1 armor when you avoid being hit by one, but you'll be sad when you roll a 1 on your damage roll - or two ones on a crit - if you pick armor.

Or you'll be sad if you pick gwf and you get hit but one more armor would have resulted in a miss - but happy as you convert bad damage rolls occasionally to higher damage rolls.

Just pick which one feels right. Is he about pumping out damage? Then take gwf and don't look back. Is he paranoid that he doesn't use a shield? Pick armor and don't look back. It's impossible to be completely happy with this choice.

[Rdothodgson]

Thanks to everyone for the insights! Because he's a half-orc, I have the urge to go all-out offense, but with all of the offense bonuses he gets already, I'm leaning towards a more balanced character and taking defense.

If I were planning to use a greatsword, I think it would be GWF hands down (re-rolling 1 in 3 results on a higher quantity of dice would come into play MUCH more often), but with all the extra weapon dice that orcs get to throw at crits I think I've got to go with the axe.



By the by, why 5d12? Shouldn't it be 4d12? 1d12 normal+1d12 crit+1d12 savage attacker+1d12 Orcish Fury?

Jeremy Crawford confirmed awhile back that the extra weapon die from Orcish Fury also gets doubled on a critical as well!

[animewatcha]

Mainly cause, 'unless otherwise stated', any die get doubled ( or rolled twice, depending upon DM ) while static bonuses don't get doubled. Opposite to 3.5e.

Also, If you are willing to give up magic item attunement slot for a rare woundrous item. Explorer's guide to wildemount has the butcher's bib ( an apron ) item. Attacks that deal slashing crit on 19 or 20. Once per turn you can reroll a weapon die but you must use the second result.

[Droppeddead]

Yes, I'm doing all of that, and then concluding that GWF adds very little value. Sorry for not spelling it out in more detail originally--I assumed it was common knowledge--but that's exactly why most of your damage comes from static mods.

Well, you haven't actually backed up you claim with anything. But sure, if you stack everything against the GWF, it's not as good as optimizing against GWF. And even with GWM, you only need to roll an average of 8 on a crit to beat the maximum of 15 you can get from static mods. And you can't even get those static mods until level 8 (level 6 if you play a variant human) with point buy or standard point array). So for our half-orc friend, for almost half the game the random damage will on average be higher.

That said, GWM in combination with GWF is a really nasty combo for Greatsword samurai.

[LudicSavant]

Hey Everyone,

I'm rolling up a level 6 Half-Orc Samurai for a campaign that will likely go up to level 20.

My weapon of choice will be a Greataxe, and I'm taking Orcish Fury so that when I crit, I get to roll 5D12 once per short rest (3D12 otherwise).

I understand that Defense is generally considered to be the optimal choice as statistically, GWF only yields an average +0.8 to +1.0 damage per D12 weapon dice rolled.

I'm skeptical, however, that the +1 defense will really be beneficial at higher levels when the nasty creatures are getting +14 to hit.

Very torn on this - I recognize that GWF comes into play far less with the Greataxe, but when it does it can result in some pretty big swings of the damage - which seems like it might be more useful against the endgame content than a +1 to AC that will be irrelevant against heavy hitters and creatures that dont target AC.

Your insights are heavily appreciated?

IMHO, +1 AC never goes out of style. Especially since 5e is designed in such a way that you can still fight lower level creatures at high levels -- you just fight more of them.

GWF is mathematically pretty modest with a greataxe. It's just +0.83 per die, on average, though that bonus will totally apply on crits and such.

You can easily test out the DPR for your builds in any situation using the calculator in my sig. As well as damage dealt against you.

[Kurt Kurageous]

There's nothing more frustrating than crit and roll lots of 1s and 2s in your extra damage rolls -- and GWM would help a lot to mitigate this bad feeling. Although not ideal from a math perspective, it's something to consider. I would give GWF a try.

We call this the sad trombone sound, rolling extra dice to get 1-2 more hits on a crit.

This is why I made my first houserule to keep criticals critical. When you crit hit, roll damage as normal. Add to the damage the total maximum value of the dice rolled. Ex. crit with great axe STR 18 d12+4 +12 for the crit. That's going to leave a mark.

This is actually a very common houserule, or so I've been told.

[Gtdead]

I value +1 AC more than GWF. However the exponential nature of AC is a double edge sword. Going from 10 to 11 for example doesn't matter as much as going from 20 to 21.

You may think that +1 AC is 5% decrease in the enemy damage, so it's not that important but you need to calculate the effective hit points to see the full picture.

If you have 20 health and a monster attacks you:

With 100% chance to hit you, you have 20 effective health.
With 95% chance to hit you, you have 21.05, a 1.05 increase.
With 90% chance to hit you, you have 22.22, a 1.17 increase.
With 10% chance to hit you, you have 200..
With 5% chance to hit you, you have 400

If you were at 10% chance to be hit, and you increased AC by one, you effectively doubled your durability.
Of course there are crits and unlucky rolls. That's always a problem with percentages, you can't blindly rely on them, but averages and intuition is all we've got to make sense of the system.

I also hate having to roll more than the absolute necessary :p

[Crucius]

I'm going to come at this from a fun-angle rather than a optimization-angle: My advice is to take GWF, as the bad-feels-mitigation is worth it alone. Since it's such a close tie to the +1 AC optimization wise, you will notice the GWF more and it will feel good, increasing your enjoyment per session.

Don't underestimate the effect bad rolls can have on your fun, guard yourself against it ;)

Going samurai also helps with this; the activated advantage on attacks means you will hit more often which is more fun!