What If Xykon had taken Jirix along instead of Redcloack

[rbetieh]

Would Tsukiko still be alive?
Would they have teamed up with Oona?
Would the fight with Tarquin not involved a Silicon elemental?

Would Greyview have a better disposition?

So many questions...

[KorvinStarmast]

Would Tsukiko still be alive?
Would they have teamed up with Oona?
Would the fight with Tarquin not involved a Silicon elemental?

Would Greyview have a better disposition?
They would have had to take the cloak from Redcloak, because otherwise the ritual does not work.
Jirix becomes the new Redcloak.

We'd have finally learned Redcloak's real name.

[understatement]

Tsukiko would still be killed.
Still would've teamed up with Oona.
No silicon elemental.
Greyview. Greyview never changes.

Jirix also gets killed in the first dungeon they delve into, because the CR of the monsters get high enough that Xykon gets XP. At least Xykon will get a laugh.

[Anymage]

Jirix also gets killed in the first dungeon they delve into, because the CR of the monsters get high enough that Xykon gets XP. At least Xykon will get a laugh.

This. Redcloak has every reason to want someone to stay behind in Gobbotopia who can serve as an effective peacetime leader. Xykon, for all his casual evulz, knows that the big nerd with ninth level spell slots comes in really handy when there's an actual challenge. Jirix would be out of his element and completely out of his depth in any situation that Xykon can't effortlessly explode, so there'd be no practical purpose to having him along.

[Quild]

They would have had to take the cloak from Redcloak, because otherwise the ritual does not work.
Jirix becomes the new Redcloak.

We'd have finally learned Redcloak's real name.

That may be your point, but Xykon didn't seem to mind giving the red cloak to Jirix (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).

[The Pilgrim]

Well, upon donning the Crimson Mantle, Jirix would have leant the Truth about the Plan. So the first thing to sort out is, would Jirix had kept the ruse going, or would had told the truth to Xykon?

[Worldsong]

That may be your point, but Xykon didn't seem to mind giving the red cloak to Jirix (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).

That was probably before he learned just how dangerous Kraagor's Tomb is.

[eaglewingz]

Greyview never changes.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Greyview_zps9fbqsycv.png Nod head. Get treat.

[KorvinStarmast]

That may be your point, but Xykon didn't seem to mind giving the red cloak to Jirix (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html). Indeed, there's no but required. :smallsmile:

[Godskook]

Jirix would be out of his element and completely out of his depth in any situation that Xykon can't effortlessly explode, so there'd be no practical purpose to having him along.

False, he'd at least have the decency to shout a warning. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html)

[Stone of Light]

Well, upon donning the Crimson Mantle, Jirix would have leant the Truth about the Plan. So the first thing to sort out is, would Jirix had kept the ruse going, or would had told the truth to Xykon?
Well, Redcloak already warned Jirix about how Xykon can't be trusted in comic #548. So, if Jirix took that message to heart, he'd probably continue to try to deceive him. The question then is, would Jirix have the chops to keep the deception going. I think he'd make a mistake and let something slip at some point.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, Redcloak already warned Jirix about how Xykon can't be trusted in comic #548. So, if Jirix took that message to heart, he'd probably continue to try to deceive him. The question then is, would Jirix have the chops to keep the deception going. I think he'd make a mistake and let something slip at some point. I get the impression that Jirix is a bit stronger in Charisma than Int. Agree he'd not be as savvy as Redcloak (who has known Xykon since Xykon became a lich) in dealing with Xykon.

[Aetius]

That may be your point, but Xykon didn't seem to mind giving the red cloak to Jirix (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).

If he didn't mind, why didn't he just do it right there and then?
He kills his own allies for trivial reasons all the time but when he was really mad at RC he only threatened him.
It seems to me he does mind and avoids downgrading his cleric if he doesn't have to.

[Ionathus]

If he didn't mind, why didn't he just do it right there and then?
He kills his own allies for trivial reasons all the time but when he was really mad at RC he only threatened him.
It seems to me he does mind and avoids downgrading his cleric if he doesn't have to.

Xykon didn't do it right then because it was only a threat. A negative pep-talk to Redcloak, if you will.

RC is more valuable than any of Xykon's other allies, and he also went to some...significant effort to ensure Redcloak's loyalty (SoD Spoilers).

Agreed that he's not gonna downgrade his cleric for no reason if he thinks he can get the same results by threatening his current (more valuable) one.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Redcloak already warned Jirix about how Xykon can't be trusted in comic #548. So, if Jirix took that message to heart, he'd probably continue to try to deceive him. The question then is, would Jirix have the chops to keep the deception going. I think he'd make a mistake and let something slip at some point.

I suppose Jirix would have kept the ruse going, beacuse it would be in his best interests to do so. The reaction of Xykon upon learning the truth about The Plan would be unpredictable, and likely involve killing Jirix and all the Hobgoblins just to spite Redcloak and because watching things die is fun.

Unlike Redcloak, however, Jirix strikes me as someone who would rather remain as the living Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins instead of dying in a global holocaust. So he would probably accept Durkon's bargain, ally with the Order to destroy Xykon, and enjoy his life as undisputed Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins.

[Lord Raziere]

Unlike Redcloak, however, Jirix strikes me as someone who would rather remain as the living Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins instead of dying in a global holocaust. So he would probably accept Durkon's bargain, ally with the Order to destroy Xykon, and enjoy his life as undisputed Supreme Leader of the Hobgoblins.

Then die shortly afterwards along with the rest of world anyways, because he probably isn't a 17th level cleric with 9th level spellslot.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Well, upon donning the Crimson Mantle, Jirix would have leant the Truth about the Plan. So the first thing to sort out is, would Jirix had kept the ruse going, or would had told the truth to Xykon?

Or would he try to run with some plan of his own instead? He was always super supportive of Redcloak, and at least up to some extend in on the plan, passing messages between the Dark One and Redcloack. Not to mention that he seemed like just a generally chill dude. But as soon as the big boys turned around and left we saw a more brutal side of him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). Jirix may behaving all of his character development happen off screen, but there is certainly more to him than meets the eye, and I'm guessing it's no coincidence that we never looked back at Gobbotopia, and not just because of the giant hole in the sky has developed since our last visit.

[Lord Raziere]

Or would he try to run with some plan of his own instead? He was always super supportive of Redcloak, and at least up to some extend in on the plan, passing messages between the Dark One and Redcloack. Not to mention that he seemed like just a generally chill dude. But as soon as the big boys turned around and left we saw a more brutal side of him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). Jirix may behaving all of his character development happen off screen, but there is certainly more to him than meets the eye, and I'm guessing it's no coincidence that we never looked back at Gobbotopia, and not just because of the giant hole in the sky has developed since our last visit.

I mean....its stomping a demonic roach. you couldn't even make a paladin fall with that action. it tells us absolutely nothing.

though if it we do turn to look back at Gobbotopia and see it somehow get worse under Jirix's rule as he becomes corrupt or like the fat hobgoblin leader from How the Paladin got his Scar and Redcloak sees all his efforts in Gobbotopia go up in smoke because of the very person he put in charge to make sure it doesn't....that might be just the wake up call to clean up Redcloak's act.

Edit: after all, the major examples of goblinoid people we see Redcloak interact with throughout are either people he commands or goblins that look better than him in comparison: The previous bearer of the Crimson Mantle, Right-Eye and his family, Jirix, people like that. It might be feeding into his willingness to be a martyr: he keeps seeing all the good goblins can do, so he feels like he isn't as good as them in comparison, and thus feels like the best thing he can do is make the sacrifices "no one else is willing to do". thus he might in fact see himself as the worst example of his race because what he is doing is horrible and he seems to be aware of it, but feels that is a necessary evil that will never happen unless he does it because all the other goblins to his mind will just humanoids walk all over them. So when he thinks of the "goblins" he thinks of Right-Eye, or all the goblins who heroically sacrifice themselves for others, including the soldier who dive to save Redcloak from an attack that gave him the revelation in War and XPs. Meanwhile he keeps interacting with all the worst examples of humanity: Xykon, Tsukiko, thus reinforcing his belief that humans are evil people to be hated and his own race is "good" in comparison. Redcloak has never encountered a goblin that is worse than him.

[The Pilgrim]

Then die shortly afterwards along with the rest of world anyways, because he probably isn't a 17th level cleric with 9th level spellslot.

I don't see why TDO having a cleric capable of 9th Level Spells is a requeriment for Thor's plan, given that, as far we know, no deity with a red, blue or yellow quiddity has any cleric capable of 9th Level Spells.

[rbetieh]

I don't see why TDO having a cleric capable of 9th Level Spells is a requeriment for Thor's plan, given that, as far we know, no deity with a red, blue or yellow quiddity has any cleric capable of 9th Level Spells.

I think the plan hinges on 1 of 2 things, either the god channels god energy into reforming the gate, or a cleric channels god energy that is the equivalent of a 9th level spell into the reforming of a gate.

I dont know how much god energy that is, or how long it takes a god to recharge such. If the energy was linear, one could expect 9 clerics casting 9 level 1 spells to do.... Dont know if Mr Giant planned on addressing this or if we are to take some exponential energy curve for granted in this case.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean....its stomping a demonic roach. you couldn't even make a paladin fall with that action. it tells us absolutely nothing. Yeah. There's this weird meme, and I am not sure of its origin, that somehow killing roaches is a sign of evil. As Robin Williams would have said on his album Throbbing Python of Love (https://www.discogs.com/Robin-Williams-Throbbing-Python-Of-Love/master/208119): "It's very strange."

(My memory may be playing tricks on me, the album that skit was on might have been "Reality, what a Concept" but it's been a few decades).

[The Pilgrim]

I think the plan hinges on 1 of 2 things, either the god channels god energy into reforming the gate, or a cleric channels god energy that is the equivalent of a 9th level spell into the reforming of a gate.

I dont know how much god energy that is, or how long it takes a god to recharge such. If the energy was linear, one could expect 9 clerics casting 9 level 1 spells to do.... Dont know if Mr Giant planned on addressing this or if we are to take some exponential energy curve for granted in this case.

I think the issue was already discussed in a past thread, and it ended with talks about distilling water and converting it to wine, or something.

[Lord Raziere]

I think the plan hinges on 1 of 2 things, either the god channels god energy into reforming the gate, or a cleric channels god energy that is the equivalent of a 9th level spell into the reforming of a gate.

I dont know how much god energy that is, or how long it takes a god to recharge such. If the energy was linear, one could expect 9 clerics casting 9 level 1 spells to do.... Dont know if Mr Giant planned on addressing this or if we are to take some exponential energy curve for granted in this case.

There is no canonical DnD explanation for the power difference between spell levels and the Giant wouldn't really care to answer what is essentially a DnD rules question about his custom setting that isn't actually a campaign. (and even if it did work, where would you find nine goblin clerics willing to trust a bunch of adventurers about a plan to save the world within the small amount of time they probably have? V doesn't know teleport spells as they have banned conjuration)

thing is, Jirix only managed to speak to the Dark One when he died so.....while easy for him to do at Kraagor's Gate, whether he'd live to see Durkon would be question, because I have the sneaking suspicion that he probably isn't high enough level to cast a spell to contact the Dark One: he went down very easy to O-chul wielding what is essentially an improvised weapon. not exactly a ringing endorsement for how much HP he has, therefore what levels he can possibly be at.

and sure technically the ninth spell slot isn't needed- but if Thor could get a face to face with the Dark One without a two color Snarl being such a concern that he won't even try that in this most desperate of times, the entire comics plot wouldn't be needed either, because Thor would just go up to him and talk it out. so sure, Jirix would probably agree with Durkon, but given that he probably doesn't have the spell to contact his deity directly, that communique would consist of Jirix dying and passing along the message when he is rezzed again. and given what we heard of the Dark One being some spiteful/hateful god (at least, according to Right-Eye) and what we know about gods being strongly influenced by what people believe about them, its very possible that Jirix would not be listened to if the Dark one has been shaped by his own people into something that truly wants the destruction to happen. Thor wouldn't be focusing on the mortal-based solution if he didn't think there was good reason to do so.

[Riftwolf]

But as soon as the big boys turned around and left we saw a more brutal side of him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).

Welp, we almost made it a month before I saw someone equate a throwaway gag to a Moral Event Horizon. I'm sure Jirix is wearing full Daedric armour while dual-wielding Frostmourne and Soul Edge, reading Book of Vile Darkness while sucking the gouda-flavoured cholesterol from his thralls veins.

Back to the OP...
It's possible Tsukiko might have survived if Redcloak had been killed after the phylactery was lost. Jirix isn't as ruthless as Redcloak, isn't as powerful, and nowhere near as paranoid. I can't see him trying to fool Xykon with the dummy phylactery, crushing the resistance single-handedly, or Rebuking the wights as a precaution. I can see him ending up being subservient to Xykon purely out of self-preservation.

[Aetius]

But as soon as the big boys turned around and left we saw a more brutal side of him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)

You mean more brutal than quite happily watching a human being tortured for fun and betting on his fate? Or (help) running a city built on slavery and opression?

The killing of the demon roach show's he'll run things differently than RC and Big X did. He doesn't put up with those demonic pests like they did. But not wanting to consort with demonic creatures isn't really that bad of a change.

[Lord Raziere]

Back to the OP...
It's possible Tsukiko might have survived if Redcloak had been killed after the phylactery was lost. Jirix isn't as ruthless as Redcloak, isn't as powerful, and nowhere near as paranoid. I can't see him trying to fool Xykon with the dummy phylactery, crushing the resistance single-handedly, or Rebuking the wights as a precaution. I can see him ending up being subservient to Xykon purely out of self-preservation.

And if that happened, there'd be no chance of Jirix being persuaded to go against Xykon- he would like living too much, Xykon is a master class in brutally threatening people to go along with him or die. if anything Redcloak is the safer bet for actual betrayal of Xykon before the Ritual is cast: Jirix would just allow Xykon to put the phylactery in the fortress, go along with Xykon and be killed the moment when the gate disappears to go to the Dark One. Redcloak on the other hand is stronger, is already planning on betraying him once the ritual is over and is much more capable of surviving the lich's wrath. the whole "sunk cost fallacy" issue is a big sticking point, but its the kind of obstacle you need this late in a story to keep it good. at this point there is no tension around whether the Order of the Stick will win and save the world, Rich has outright said that he likes heroic narratives and that this will be something heroic with a happy ending. the tension comes in from HOW they do it when the odds are so long and what they need to do is so specific with no real alternatives left to them. the tension isn't in the OOTS saving the world, its in whether Redcloak will be apart of that world once this is all over.

[WanderingMist]

Welp, we almost made it a month before I saw someone equate a throwaway gag to a Moral Event Horizon. I'm sure Jirix is wearing full Daedric armour while dual-wielding Frostmourne and Soul Edge, reading Book of Vile Darkness while sucking the gouda-flavoured cholesterol from his thralls veins.


I don't know what Frostmourne or Soul Edge are, but doesn't Daedric Armor require you to kill demons that are essentially living embodiments of evil?

[DaLucaray]

I don't doubt that Jirix is evil, just more in the "perfectly happy to rule over an unfair system" kind of way than "sadistically slaughter people for fun" kind of way.

[rbetieh]

I don't doubt that Jirix is evil, just more in the "perfectly happy to rule over an unfair system" kind of way than "sadistically slaughter people for fun" kind of way.

I think he is Hobgoblin evil, as Redcloak described early on. He knew he was #2 in charge behind the Supreme Leader and he played his role. Released from his role, he is in charge and doing things the Hobgoblin way.

But that is the neat question, Xykon says the Hobgoblin way is more fun, which is odd, considering what it is.

[DaLucaray]

But that is the neat question, Xykon says the Hobgoblin way is more fun, which is odd, considering what it is.

Well now, he may be a hobgoblin, but he's still his own person. He was willing to participate in Xykon's games and presented himself as a comedic, friendly peacetime leader. I would define him as a pretty "fun" person, for a supreme leader of a speciesist military theocracy

Also, lets be honest, I'm sure 99% of the evil population would be more fun for Xykon to keep around than Redcloak, he clearly looted a paladin's +1 Stick of Up The Rear a long time ago. At the latest during the invasion of Azure City

[Lord Raziere]

Also, lets be honest, I'm sure 99% of the evil population would be more fun for Xykon to keep around than Redcloak, he clearly looted a paladin's +1 Stick of Up The Rear a long time ago. At the latest during the invasion of Azure City

I mean.....when you think about it, Redcloak isn't THAT different from a paladin. He is devoted to a cause greater than himself and a god who gave him that cause, he has beliefs associated with that cause that he is incredibly stubborn about holding to, and is willing to make sacrifices for that cause. he is even a walking inverted color scheme of the Sapphire Guard. (though that might just be the general evil color scheme of this world, Empire of Blood and the vampires like red and black to.)

[Riftwolf]

I don't know what Frostmourne or Soul Edge are, but doesn't Daedric Armor require you to kill demons that are essentially living embodiments of evil?

Frostmourne is the Lich Kings sword from Warcraft, which possesses your soul when you wield it. Soul Edge is one version of the sword from Soul Edge/Soul Calibur, which... Possesses your soul when you wield it. But it has an eye.
Daedric Armour doesn't require you to kill Daedra (who aren't embodiments of evil, but embodiments of all alignments ranging between 'Pure Evil' and 'Sort of Okay'), especially as you can't kill Daedra, only destroy their meatsuits/dissipate their energy. Daedric Armour pieces are minor Daedra bound to a specific form by something stronger than them. When you summon Bound Armour/Weapons, you're temporarily borrowing enslaved Daedra, while physical equipment is the result of a more powerful conjuration/blacksmith.

[ebarde]

Xykon believes he can boss around Redcloak as much as he wants, he's not gonna kill him unless he really needs to. Because to kill him would be to some extent admiting that his gambit didn't payed off, and that Redcloak wasn't as spineless and easy to control as Xykon made him out to be. I feel both of them struggle similarly with admiting to themselves they did a mistake in thinking they could control each other.