Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion XVII: Call Necrosius, The Old Thread Is Dead!

[Grim Portent]

Its definitely not a set timetable as pools spawn more / special lizardmen in response to invasions, but I dont remember it ever been mentioned that Slanns handle it themselves either.

Maybe the seemingly spontaneous spawnings are part of the scheduled timetable, but the plaques predicting them and the conflicts that precipitate them have been lost. The lizardmen have lost a lot of knowledge, which does include bits of the spawning predictions.

Or maybe the Old Ones are still able to control things to an extent from where ever they went. Or maybe Sotek has some influence.

All conjecture, but I suppose it's unlikely to ever be answered fully so conjecture is all there is.

[Wraith]

Maybe the seemingly spontaneous spawnings are part of the scheduled timetable, but the plaques predicting them and the conflicts that precipitate them have been lost. The lizardmen have lost a lot of knowledge, which does include bits of the spawning predictions.

The Wiki implies it's a mix of both. Most spawnings happen according to "astrological cycles" - presumably things like the equinoxes, they're regular enough that cities generally don't have much overlap between generations of Skinks as the passing one is almost immediately replaced by the new one.

But then, there are some spawnings that happen according to mystical provenance - a long lost clutch of eggs hatches with a particular breed of Skink just as they're needed, as if it were foretold. An old Dogs Of War unit - Huichi-Titchi's Raiders - was born this way, coinciding with a spawning of Cold Ones with matching markings on their skin as if they were meant to be together as a unit of Cold One Riders. They went on to be pivotal in recovering lost Lizardmen plaques of prophesy that were used to avert various disasters and similar things, attaining folk-hero status among other Lizardmen.

[Eldan]

Under those Definition I propose Ladeptus Astartes for the Wolves.

[Fyraltari]

Does that make the Death Guard the Gladeptus Astartes?

[Eldan]

Sure. And given their recent teenie haircuts, the Raven Guard are the Fadeptus Astartes.

I also propose Tradeptus Astartes for Ultramarines.

[hamishspence]

Does that make the Death Guard the Gladeptus Astartes?

Surely that would be the World Eaters, what with their gladiatorial-style weapons and duels? :biggrin:

[gmoyes]

Blood Angels would be Vladeptus Astartes? Old men Space Wolves Dadeptus Astartes?

[Silverraptor]

Found this video. Thought it was worthy enough to share more IF vs IW feud (https://youtu.be/lkBhHVPNzcg?t=115).

[gooddragon1]

I had some fun with MS Paint:

https://i.imgur.com/PJtVqDx.png

[noob]

I had some fun with MS Paint:

https://i.imgur.com/PJtVqDx.png

So if you take an objective requiring to kill characters you can possibly kill multiple times the anime standardized swordmen?

[gooddragon1]

So if you take an objective requiring to kill characters you can possibly kill multiple times the anime standardized swordmen?

Only if it allows a save? Not sure. Was actually thinking that it could be made to flee somehow.

I wonder how it would do against a titan.

[LansXero]

I had some fun with MS Paint:

https://i.imgur.com/PJtVqDx.png

Killed isn't a game term. Since it can be destroyed, and can lose wounds, it dies to Smite.

[noob]

Killed isn't a game term. Since it can be destroyed, and can lose wounds, it dies to Smite.

Did not smite deal wounds right and allows no save?
If smite allows a save it can deal wounds to that character.

[LansXero]

Did not smite deal wounds right and allows no save?
If smite allows a save it can deal wounds to that character.

No save, but it says 'can not be wounded'. Smite, and mortal wounds, dont have a 'to wound' roll, you just lose them. It doesn't say 'can not lose wounds' (like, for example, Ghazkull). Also, 'killed' doesn't existe, the term is Destroyed. So one smite on a roll of 3+ and well it gets to respawn. Just gotta keep killing it every turn for easy Assassinate VPs. Its like a more annoying Solitaire, with no strat support and no inv. (it also dies to shuriken fire, because 3d6 autosaves aren't really all that many)
.

[JNAProductions]

No save, but it says 'can not be wounded'. Smite, and mortal wounds, dont have a 'to wound' roll, you just lose them. It doesn't say 'can not lose wounds' (like, for example, Ghazkull). Also, 'killed' doesn't existe, the term is Destroyed. So one smite on a roll of 3+ and well it gets to respawn. Just gotta keep killing it every turn for easy Assassinate VPs. Its like a more annoying Solitaire, with no strat support and no inv. (it also dies to shuriken fire, because 3d6 autosaves aren't really all that many)
.

Though all it takes is one 6 (which has a 42% chance of happening) to be made immune to anything that needs saves.

Which is where the Nightbringer comes in... :P

[Forum Explorer]

Though all it takes is one 6 (which has a 42% chance of happening) to be made immune to anything that needs saves.

Which is where the Nightbringer comes in... :P

Actually speaking of C'tan, don't they have a power which is 'roll a dice, if that number is equal to or above the Wounds characteristic of the target, that model is removed?'

[JNAProductions]

Actually speaking of C'tan, don't they have a power which is 'roll a dice, if that number is equal to or above the Wounds characteristic of the target, that model is removed?'

I believe so, yes. With a +1 to the roll if it's from a Transcendant.

[noob]

No save, but it says 'can not be wounded'. Smite, and mortal wounds, dont have a 'to wound' roll, you just lose them. It doesn't say 'can not lose wounds' (like, for example, Ghazkull). Also, 'killed' doesn't existe, the term is Destroyed. So one smite on a roll of 3+ and well it gets to respawn. Just gotta keep killing it every turn for easy Assassinate VPs. Its like a more annoying Solitaire, with no strat support and no inv. (it also dies to shuriken fire, because 3d6 autosaves aren't really all that many)
.

so get smite spam and this figurine is an opportunity to get heaps of VPS?

[LansXero]

so get smite spam and this figurine is an opportunity to get heaps of VPS?

Spam? Its got 2 wounds.

Also: He gets the auto-saves at the start of the turn. BUT he respawns during your turn. Which means he doesn't get the auto-saves after his first life :v.

[noob]

Spam? Its got 2 wounds.

Also: He gets the auto-saves at the start of the turn. BUT he respawns during your turn. Which means he doesn't get the auto-saves after his first life :v.

You need at least some different sources of smite in case the opponent focus them down with the rest of their actually good army.

[Cheesegear]

Let's fix this garbage:


M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv
Sword Guy * 2+ 2+ 5 * 1 10 * 2+

Range Type S AP D Abilities
Tank-Killing Katana Melee Melee x4 -5 D3+3 Each time the bearer fights, it ignores
modifiers made to to hit rolls and to
wound rolls. Damage dealt to VEHICLE models
by this weapon is doubled.


Abilities
Anywhere I Need To Be: Sword Guy is too busy eating. He cannot make Normal Moves or Advance Moves, and can never Fall Back (as if he ever would!). However, at the end of your Movement phase, Sword Guy can be removed from the battlefield. In your Reinforcements step, you must set up Sword Guy anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 6" away from enemy models. Using this ability, Sword Guy can never be placed in terrain. His entrance is too dramatic.

I Can't Give In To Hatred. But I Will Fight If I Must: Sword Guy cannot perform Charge moves. Additionally, in the Fight phase, Sword Guy always Fights first, even against other models that have a similar ability or performed Charge moves that turn.

I Fight For My Friends!: At the end of your opponent's Charge phase, if Sword Guy is not in Engagement Range of any enemy models, you may remove Sword Guy from the battlefield, and set this model up in Engagement Range of an enemy unit that made a Charge this phase. This model counts as having performed a Heroic Intervention in the turn it uses this ability.

Beta Tester: Sword Guy pwns newbs. This model can only be wounded on an unmodified to wound roll of 6 and this model is unaffected by attacks and abilities that deal Mortal Wounds. Additionally, Sword Guy's save is Invulnerable. Sword Guy is unaffected by attacks or abilities that require a Toughness value.

Not Special In Any Way, Honest: Ranged attacks only hit Sword Guy on an unmodified to hit roll of '6'. Sword Guy is immune attacks dealt by weapons with 'Flame' in their profile.

I Can't Give Up!: If Sword Guy has been previously destroyed during the battle, he may be set up again in subsequent turns using I Fight For My Friends! with his full allocation of wounds remaining. Each time he is set up in this way, he gains +1 Wound to his profile for the rest of the battle.

His Power Level...: Sword Guy can perform one Deny the Witch test in the Psychic phase as if he were a PSYKER. Additionally, if he successfully performs a test, the PSYKER that attempted to manifest the Power is so shocked that they may not attempt to perform any more Psychic tests in that phase, but may perform other actions as normal.

Keywords: INFANTRY, CHARACTER, SWORD GUY
Faction Keywords: UNALIGNED

Alternatively, just port whatever Gotrek's rules are into WH40K.

[Eldan]

Next, a terrain feature representing his weaker friends. He can teleport there automatically whenever an enemy gets within 6".

[Adrastos42]

I dunno, those rules seem pretty weak for PL 9001.

[The Glyphstone]

If he can't move or charge, how does he ever get into melee against tanks?:smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

If he can't move or charge, how does he ever get into melee against tanks? :smallconfused:

I see that you've spotted that he will never have the opportunity to prove that a Katana can cut through a Tank.
You'll just have to trust him that it can, though. :smallwink:

[LansXero]

jinx him, shoot him full of shurikens, dont charge stuff.

[noob]

I see that you've spotted that he will never have the opportunity to prove that a Katana can cut through a Tank.
You'll just have to trust him that it can, though. :smallwink:

Is there is vehicles with melee attacks in this game?(although it would be a bad idea to attack in melee this character with a tank)

[hamishspence]

Vehicles generally come with melee attacks as standard now, yes.

[AdmiralCheez]

I know Dark Eldar vehicles are covered in blades, so they definitely have melee attacks.

[Cheesegear]

Is there is vehicles with melee attacks in this game? (although it would be a bad idea to attack in melee this character with a tank)

Dreadnoughts and Soul Grinders, and a whole bunch of Death Guard Vehicles that don't mind being in Melee.
I can't remember off the top of my head whether or not Slaanesh Chariots are Vehicles or not. I'm pretty sure they're like Bikes, but I don't remember.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Random question, are the symbols used for the different winds of magic elven in origin, or do the elves use different symbols?

Like, the symbol for Fire Magic is a key, but how would a Wood Elf caster interpret it, since they live outdoors and thus probably don't use keys a lot?

[Grim Portent]

The symbols were taught to the empire by the High Elves, so I would assume that the Wood Elf wizards have knowledge of the symbols as a result of being descended from the magical schools of Ulthuan.

The symbols are also not mere representations of the winds, but actually possess power and as such are probably intrinsic to the winds themselves rather than a matter of cultural perception.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I figured, but a Wood Elf who casts Fire Spells isn't going to DRESS like an Imperial Bright Wizard, right? All decked out with grates and keys and skull-torches?

[Platinius]

I figured, but a Wood Elf who casts Fire Spells isn't going to DRESS like an Imperial Bright Wizard, right? All decked out with grates and keys and skull-torches?

Wood elves don't like the metal look it seems^^

[Avaris]

I figured, but a Wood Elf who casts Fire Spells isn't going to DRESS like an Imperial Bright Wizard, right? All decked out with grates and keys and skull-torches?

They wouldn’t, as the elves don’t really see the different lores as separate. There is no such thing as an elven fire mage, there is an elven mage who specialises in fire magic. Human wizards attune so closely to a particular lore because they are taught to only focus on that single wind of magic, whereas an elven ‘fire wizard’ would likely also be using heavens and light at the very least.

[Wraith]

High Elven mages consider Imperial magic to be 'childish'. As far as they are concerned; If you were even remotely serious about it you'd master the 8 disciplines as preparation to move onto the REALLY important stuff, like High Magic.

*sounds of hollow, frog-like laughter coming from Lustria* :smalltongue:

[comicshorse]

High Elven mages consider Imperial magic to be 'childish'. As far as they are concerned; If you were even remotely serious about it you'd master the 8 disciplines as preparation to move onto the REALLY important stuff, like High Magic.



After all if you're not prepared to spend at least three centuries studying magic, you're obviously not serious about learning it

[Wraith]

comicshorse's account is posting from Ulthuan; Confirmed. :smalltongue:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Right, but you can only learn one Lore at a time, at least per WHFRP 4E's rules. An elf can learn from multiple Lores, but has to learn all the ones from the first Lore they pick before they can take on a second, and the mounting XP costs, coupled with the length of time necessary, would go well beyond the scope of a typical campaign...

[Grim Portent]

In practice the wood elves don't really dress differently based on their lore, all their magic practicioners wear similar outfits unlike the massively divergent human wizards. Unlike the high elves they don't see high magic as the inevitable path of all real wizards, presumably because of their relationship to the magical forests and the way certain parts of them become suffused with certain winds and the effect that has on the tree spirits who are involved in teaching the wood elves.

A wood elf wizard will look similar to any other wood elf, clothes dyed primarily in shades of brown or green*, pieces of living trees or fallen wood attached to their garb in various places. They would probably have a piece of wood, a stone, crystal or other trinket carved with a rune representing the wind they favour attached to their clothing, worn as a piece of jewelry or affixed to a weapon. It'll probably be something subtle though, at least to non-wizard human eyes. Their clothing is probably more robe-like than that of other elves, but looser and less ornate than the robes of high elves, better suited to the more acrobatic preferences of the asrai.


*If they come from certain parts of Athel Loren or worship particular gods they would wear different colours, like orange, blue, purple and red.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I see! Thank you! :smallsmile:

[Gareth3]

I don't have much opportunity to play this game, but I'm still interested in the setting details. What recent stuff is good to read if you don't care about the rules?

[Grytorm]

Hello again. Ready as always to post random things which are probably heretical.

First. Last few pages reminded me of my two ideas for space marine chapters, both doomed.

One with close ties to the Ecclisiarchy who are doomed because they are idiots and are busy provoking the Inquisition right after being allowed to return to their nuclear blasted homeworld after a penitent crusade. This crusade happened because they got uppity during a major civil war in the Imperium and tried to stay neutral while obstructing the heretics victors.

The second are a partially successful attempt to create a Space Wolves successor chapter by mixing their geneseed with tbe Iron Hands. Partially succesful becauase it worked for a while. But nof really a success because the geneseed is degenerating rapidly and they will be unviable within a few generations. They were originally more like the Spacewolves before the degeneration when they started to tear off their lower jaws to stop out of control tooth growth.

Now for the crazy major heresy thoughts. Once I tried to come up with Khorne themed magic after playing Total Warhammer 2. Main ideas were making units go berserk, damaging cowards, and antimagic. The sort of stuff which would make Khorne go, "You have some good ideas but don't really get what we do here," before transforming whoever suggested the spells into something horrible. And remembering that made me pause to wonder what exactly Khorne considers to be magic. Because I think Khornate deamons can corrupt stuff and do some other non-material stuff if they want to. So what is the line?

[Forum Explorer]

I don't have much opportunity to play this game, but I'm still interested in the setting details. What recent stuff is good to read if you don't care about the rules?

Lorehammer has a really good series of pod-casts that go over basically all the lore.

Otherwise you need to be more specific. The universe is too big to cover things generally and still be a good story. What specifically would you like to know about? As in, what factions interest you the most, which part of history, ect.

[Gareth3]

Lorehammer has a really good series of pod-casts that go over basically all the lore.

Otherwise you need to be more specific. The universe is too big to cover things generally and still be a good story. What specifically would you like to know about? As in, what factions interest you the most, which part of history, ect.

The factions that interest me are the Tau, Eldar, and Necrons, and I'm most interested in the "present day", the time the games mostly happen in. Thanks for the podcast suggestion, I'll check it out.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is "Idoneth" (from Age of Sigmar's Idoneth Deepkin) pronounced like "Eye-doneth," "Ee-doneth" or "Id-oneth?" :smallconfused:

[LansXero]

The factions that interest me are the Tau, Eldar, and Necrons, and I'm most interested in the "present day", the time the games mostly happen in. Thanks for the podcast suggestion, I'll check it out.

the infinite and the divine should be a good read for you then

[Gareth3]

Thank you.

[Squark]

I know those who finish their time in the Deathwatch are allowed to continue using their shoulder pad, but which shoulder does it go on? I want to add a deathwatch shoulder pad to my Librarian, but I don't know which shoulder it should go on.

[Grim Portent]

I know those who finish their time in the Deathwatch are allowed to continue using their shoulder pad, but which shoulder does it go on? I want to add a deathwatch shoulder pad to my Librarian, but I don't know which shoulder it should go on.

As I understand it the ex-Deathwatch colours go on the right shoulder, replacing unit markings but keeping the left shoulder free to display their chapter heraldry.

I think there's some art and minis out there with the pad on the left, but it doesn't make much sense to me as that would be displacing their active chapter badge.

[Cheesegear]

I know those who finish their time in the Deathwatch are allowed to continue using their shoulder pad, but which shoulder does it go on?

Active Chapter Pauldron on the left.
Deathwatch Service supercedes squad-level markings, and goes on the right pauldron.


I want to add a deathwatch shoulder pad to my Librarian, but I don't know which shoulder it should go on.

Squad-level and Tactical-markings (e.g; Horned Skull, for Librarians) go on the left knee.

[Destro_Yersul]

So the answer is that there is no one answer. Various sources have said that they move it, or don't, or that they don't bring their own armour and thus don't get to keep part of it, or any number of other things. There's new fluff, and old fluff, and a lot of it is contradictory.

Ultimately, there are two interpretations, both of which fit reasonably well with the lore. There's also a third thing.

1: The Deathwatch pad remains on the left shoulder. It is custom to modify power armour as little as possible, in order to avoid angering the armour's spirits. The Deathwatch modification and repainting are important to the identity of the Deathwatch, and these changes are accepted. When the marine returns to their chapter, they paint their armour again to show their return, but are allowed to keep the silver left pauldron. It's all about ritual, and trying not to piss off your wargear by changing it too much.

2: The Deathwatch pad moves to the right shoulder, as a battle honour, displacing the squad markings. The Active Chapter pad goes on the left. This allows the marine to retain the Deathwatch honours, while keeping their chapter allegiance in the most prominent place. The chapter is paramount.

The third thing is that Deathwatch pads are not symmetrical. They're designed to fit on the left arm. If you move them to the right, you either need to find a way to get right-shoulder pads, or modify the left-shoulder ones. Whioh way you go will depend on what you have access to, and you can always come up with an explanation for why your specific dudes do it this way or that, assuming you've created your own chapter.

[Wraith]

Is "Idoneth" (from Age of Sigmar's Idoneth Deepkin) pronounced like "Eye-doneth," "Ee-doneth" or "Id-oneth?" :smallconfused:

I couldn't find a formal pronunciation on Wikipedia or the Idoneth book so take this with a grain of salt, however in all of the Warhammer TV videos about the army, painting guides, etc, they are referred to as EYE-doneth. That's authority enough for me. :smallsmile:


2: The Deathwatch pad moves to the right shoulder, as a battle honour, displacing the squad markings. The Active Chapter pad goes on the left. This allows the marine to retain the Deathwatch honours, while keeping their chapter allegiance in the most prominent place. The chapter is paramount.

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

Like you said though, if you want Your Guys to do it differently then fair enough - I don't think that a limitation in the models has ever been enough to deter people's ambitions to write their fluff how they want to

[Cheesegear]

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

In my headcanon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21914803&postcount=1221), Sven Bloodhowl has Tor Garadon's right pauldron, and vice versa.

Saul Tarvitz and Nathaniel Garro did a similar thing. But I can't model Chapter-specific vambraces. :smallwink:

[Wraith]

In my headcanon (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=21914803&postcount=1221), Sven Bloodhowl has Tor Garadon's right pauldron, and vice versa.

I remember Ages Past. Seems like a fitting way for that particular escapade to have ended - they're both beaten bloody, their armour cracked and broken in every plate. Bloodhowl has lost his helmet, both pauldrons and a sizeable chunk of his breastplate, but finally they can see Thunderhawks on the horizon, and all they have to do it wait for the cavalry to pick them up.

Garadon sees it first - the sweetest, and most beautiful sight of his many decades of life - that the Thunderhawk is yellow. His brothers are coming for him.

Brothers... He thinks. My Brothers aren't *coming* for me, there's one already here.

He limped over to Bloodhowl, who was sitting with his back against the stump of a marble pillar. His eyes were closed and he was not moving, but his ragged breath still came in deep heaves, like the snarl of a wolf not yet ready to quit fighting.
"Here." Said Garadon, yanking off one of his own pauldrons and dropping it into Bloodhowl's lap. It was battered and scarred, and the squad icon could barely be made out through a cross-hatch of torn paintwork and alien blood, but it had refused to yield to destruction just as it's wearer had. "Put this on."
Bloodhowl opened one eye - The other was puffy and purple, for even Astartes physiology does not heal that quickly. "You're pauldr-? What do I need this for? The day is won, isn't it? We can rest for all of a minute, surely?"
"You need it." Tor's voice was firm and sure. "My Chapter comes as we speak, and it would not do for them to arrive and you are... improperly dressed." He allowed himself a smile. A small one. Bloodhowl had earned it. "Besides, I... owe you."
Bloodhowl looked up, still not moving to take the pauldron, taking in the quiet meaning that passed between the two of them.
"....You lost my knife, didn't you?" He smirked, melodrama quickly swerving into another spar.
"I did not lose it." Garadon scowled at the accusation, though it was hard to say if he was truly offended. "It's over there."
Bloodhowl followed the Imperial Fist's gesture to the other side of the room. A smouldering crater the size of a battle-tank still glowed ember-hot in the aftermath of a plasma gun's core being ruptured and detonating. Around it were charred fragments of scattered bone and chunks of melted slag which plink'd quietly as it cooled.
"Fair enough." That seemed to be the end of the matter, and Bloodhowl staggered to his feet. A moment's work saw the yellow pauldron affixed to his shoulder, vivid and bright against the winter-grey of the Vlka Fenrika.
"Might need to get it repainted, though." He added, unable to resist. "My Chapter has nothing against personal heraldry, you understand, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Your Lord will not be offended I expect, hey?"
"I'll let him know."

[Platinius]

Like movie-Aragorn wearing movie-Boromir's vambraces, in the epilogue (or was it Arven's vision of the future, I forgot), you could even see Aragorn being buried with them.

I like it^^


And it makes sense, the Space Marines are very brotherly in their treatment of each other. It is one of the few, really nice things in the 40k setting :smallsmile:

[Lord Raziere]

And it makes sense, the Space Marines are very brotherly in their treatment of each other. It is one of the few, really nice things in the 40k setting :smallsmile:

Of course it makes sense: Wh40k is just the Knights of the Round Table Plus Context.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Would that make Alfabusa's work "Monty Python and the Holy Grail plus context?" :smalltongue:

[Lord Raziere]

Would that make Alfabusa's work "Monty Python and the Holy Grail plus context?" :smalltongue:

I don't think I can answer this without explaining my joke, and your not supposed to explain the joke.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I mean, I was just trying to piggyback off of your joke with another joke, so...yeah!

[Destro_Yersul]

I think the key word is 'Active Chapter' - its both traditional and convenient is everyone knows that "left arm = who you're currently working for" and thematically it helps a painted army look cohesive.

Like you said though, if you want Your Guys to do it differently then fair enough - I don't think that a limitation in the models has ever been enough to deter people's ambitions to write their fluff how they want to

It occured to me a bit later that the reason for this is that if a space marine is advancing, they are likely doing it with their left side forward, in order to fire their bolter right-handed. Having the Chapter pad on the left therefore presents a unified front. Of course, this is also a great reason to keep the Deathwatch pad on the left - that raised rim ain't just for show, after all.

Either way though, the important thing is more that you end up happy with how your model looks.

[Grytorm]

Hello again. I have been uselessly thinking about a mod for Total War Warhammer 2which will never be made. And I was wondering how reasonable would it be to add Albion themed units to the Norsca race.

The mod would be titled The Locker and The Lighthouse and would feature a Norscan Sorceress racing an ancient seafaring Strigoi King to find a wandering isle and recover a potent artifact for their own purposes.

It might also add an extra Legendary Lord to Norsca to lead a regular Albion faction while the Sorceress has an odder start position.

[Fyraltari]

It occured to me a bit later that the reason for this is that if a space marine is advancing, they are likely doing it with their left side forward, in order to fire their bolter right-handed.
That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?

[Lord Raziere]

That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?

No, according to the Deathwatch rpg corebook, one of the starting talents of all space marines is "Ambidextrous". Meaning there are no left or right handed space marines. They are all ambidextrous, as the Emperor probably wanted to optimize them to be able to use things well in either hand.

[Fyraltari]

That's... actually the least absurd modification the space marines received, good job, Emp, you get one point.

[Destro_Yersul]

That raises an interesting question, are there any known left-handed Space Marines?


No, according to the Deathwatch rpg corebook, one of the starting talents of all space marines is "Ambidextrous". Meaning there are no left or right handed space marines. They are all ambidextrous, as the Emperor probably wanted to optimize them to be able to use things well in either hand.

This. It makes a lot of sense to include ambidexterity when you're making space marines, since then you can standardise wargear and never need to worry about it. It doesn't matter that power cables for heavy weapons feed around from the right, for example, since every space marine will be able to fire right-handed. They'll never get in the way. It doesn't matter that every bolt weapon ejects shells on the right (whether or not ejecting shells makes sense, that's what they do) . Etc.

[Cheesegear]

It doesn't matter that every bolt weapon ejects shells on the right (whether or not ejecting shells makes sense, that's what they do) . Etc.

I still get so angry about this all the time.
Bolts are caseless ammo. There's no 'shell' to eject.
But every weapon has an ejector port. I vaguely remember that it wasn't an ejector port. It was to prevent the weapon from overheating.
But then why are there are even models with spent ammo casings? If Bolt-weapons are so similar to RPGs, why are they more often depicted as wielding Battle Rifles?

Don't worry though. "Everything is different, do what you want." Canon doesn't matter because writers - and designers - are bad at their jobs, and this excuse allows bad writers and designers continue to write and design badly. But this is me picking on poor, defenseless, penniless, publicly-traded GW.

[Destro_Yersul]

not to mention all the video games and artwork that literally show them ejecting streams of spent casings.

[Cheesegear]

not to mention all the video games and artwork that literally show them ejecting streams of spent casings.

Scratch that.
It seems that Bolts were changed to cased ammo sometime around 5th Ed.
I almost certainly blame Matt Ward.

[Grim Portent]

Hello again. I have been uselessly thinking about a mod for Total War Warhammer 2which will never be made. And I was wondering how reasonable would it be to add Albion themed units to the Norsca race.

The mod would be titled The Locker and The Lighthouse and would feature a Norscan Sorceress racing an ancient seafaring Strigoi King to find a wandering isle and recover a potent artifact for their own purposes.

It might also add an extra Legendary Lord to Norsca to lead a regular Albion faction while the Sorceress has an odder start position.

The OVN lost factions mod adds Albion as a faction in itself.

Generally speaking the people of Albion really don't get along with the Norscans, except the Albionites who joined Be'lakor during his time spent as a corporeal being in the northern part of Albion. Norscans generally only visit Albion to raid on the rare occasions the mists protecting the isle part, and the natives almost never leave. On top of that the people of Albion hate Chaos and many Norscan tribes are corrupted to some extent.

[Thragka]

On the other hand, Fimir are already part of the Norscan roster – aren't they from Albion?

[LeSwordfish]

Don't worry though. "Everything is different, do what you want." Canon doesn't matter because writers - and designers - are bad at their jobs, and this excuse allows bad writers and designers continue to write and design badly. But this is me picking on poor, defenseless, penniless, publicly-traded GW.

sir, this is a wendy's.

[Grim Portent]

On the other hand, Fimir are already part of the Norscan roster – aren't they from Albion?

They can be found in Albion, but are also found throughout the northern Empire and bits of Norsca and Kislev. A lot of them are found in the Wasteland north of Marienburg. Where they actually first came from is unknown.

EDIT: I also imagine they don't get along well with the people of Albion any more than they do the Imperials or Kislevites. A chaos corrupted species that procreates through kidnapped human females is not a good neighbour to have.

[hamishspence]

I still get so angry about this all the time.
Bolts are caseless ammo. There's no 'shell' to eject.

I'm pretty sure the whole "caseless ammo" thing was more explicitly for autoguns than for boltguns. I've got the 2e Wargear book and the Autogun section goes into some detail on how autoguns are caseless. The boltgun section, however, doesn't say anything about boltgun caselessness.


It seems that Bolts were changed to cased ammo sometime around 5th Ed.
I almost certainly blame Matt Ward.

What edition first introduced boltgun models with a visible "ejection port"?


EDIT - 4e had models with ports - but 3e had art with models with ejection ports (and ejected shells in the air) - 3e SM Codex - Veteran Squads.

[LeSwordfish]

Neither 40k wiki makes any reference to bolter ammo being caseless.

[hamishspence]

Maybe people read about gyrojets being caseless, saw the similarities between them and bolters, and jumped to conclusions?

It would be interesting to see what the earliest examples of "bolters ejecting cases" art are - as I mentioned there's some from very early 3e - but is there any in 2e or 1e (Rogue Trader)?

[Destro_Yersul]

The earliest books I own are for 3rd. The Space Marine codex (with Crimson Fists on the cover) has artwork depicting bolters ejecting casings. Quite a lot of it, actually. The 3rd ed. Rulebook has a bolter cutaway with the ejection port labelled, and artwork with spent casings being ejected. But I can't speak for 2nd.

[hamishspence]

Modelwise, the RTB-01 "Beakie" plastic marines from 1e had what looked like ejection ports.

I think it was 2e that tended toward "portless" bolters, before they started being phased back in (several of the Marine models in the 3e rulebook appear to have them, though not all).

[Wraith]

They can be found in Albion, but are also found throughout the northern Empire and bits of Norsca and Kislev. A lot of them are found in the Wasteland north of Marienburg. Where they actually first came from is unknown.

Fimir were the original residents of the Old World before the Old Ones came along and interfered, creating Elves, Dwarfs and Men. They were the first sentient race to worship the Chaos Gods, but were abandoned when it turned out the Man were more interesting and capable of more abstract and entertaining deviance. :smalltongue:

Officially the natives of Albion are either human Druids (a specialized sort of Nature Hedge-Wizard) and Giants. The place is infested with the latter in numbers that rival the rest of the Old World combined.

[qechua]

The earliest books I own are for 3rd. The Space Marine codex (with Crimson Fists on the cover) has artwork depicting bolters ejecting casings. Quite a lot of it, actually. The 3rd ed. Rulebook has a bolter cutaway with the ejection port labelled, and artwork with spent casings being ejected. But I can't speak for 2nd.

I just checked my copy of Codex Ultramarines (2e), it has artwork depicting everywhere from no shell casings to ridiculous amounts of shell casings, sometimes in the same piece. The 3e rulebook refers to shells having an "outer casing", as well as being "self propelled". It also includes a cutaway diagram of a Storm Bolter including "multi-directional ejection port (manual ejection port trigger)". My other 2e rulebooks are unfortunately a couple of hundred miles away, so I can't check those.

[Grytorm]

The OVN lost factions mod adds Albion as a faction in itself.

Generally speaking the people of Albion really don't get along with the Norscans, except the Albionites who joined Be'lakor during his time spent as a corporeal being in the northern part of Albion. Norscans generally only visit Albion to raid on the rare occasions the mists protecting the isle part, and the natives almost never leave. On top of that the people of Albion hate Chaos and many Norscan tribes are corrupted to some extent.

I was thinking about Albion because they are geographically they are geographically near to Norsca, they are seperated from the main Norscan factions, and they are not totally disimilar from Norsca. And it is something they GW and the video game company are unlikely to develop.

Basically I think I started by brainstorming what sort of DLC could exist for Vampire Coast before crossing into what the vampirates could be set across from. Norsca seemed best because they could use more content, as seafarers they can be set against the Vampirates, and as they were fleshed out by CA there is more room to just make stuff up.

So for the Vampirate ideas I have had center on a waterlogged Strigoi king. Supporting him would be spellcasting Seawitch lords that would add Beast magic to the faction. Ghoulish castaways who fight with rusted cutlasses or firebombs. Degenerate sharklike strigoi vampire infantry as an alternate to Depth Guard. And a sharklike varghulf like creature called a Bilge Beast. I should probably come up with a ranged unit.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Aw man, I know a guy who brainstormed and drew some FANTASTIC art for a hypothetical Albion faction! Even made them look like real ancient Britons and stuff!

Here's his DeviantArt gallery of WF stuff, he's made pics for other factions too and even drawn some of the old favorites! (https://www.deviantart.com/dewitteillustration/gallery/62107112/warhammer-fantasy)

[Avaris]

A bit of musing on approaches to canon and presenting a setting. TL:DR, recent publications, using the example of the Blood Angels codex, have done a fairly poor job of providing the basics of the setting as a ‘jumping off point’ that provides new players with sufficient context, without having to dig deeper and be exposed to the firehose of lore online.

I’m a big believer in the idea that the setting should be a jumping off point, rather than a thing that defines every single truth; people should be able to create their own narratives and change their personal interpretation of the setting where it suits them. As a non contentious example, my Blood Angels have black rims on their shoulder pads. Looking at the codex, these are no longer recognised as an ‘official’ scheme, but I chose it because I like how it looks. This is a minor change to the setting for my personal canon; there are more significant changes I have also made, most notably choosing to have female space marines in my armies, but I see these as different levels of the same thing. I know the canon, and I have taken it as a jumping off point, from which I am free to deviate for my own hobby.

The thing is, in order to feel confident doing so, you also need to have a good idea of where the ‘official’ line of canon is. I have been in this hobby, on and off, for over 20 years. The canon is ingrained, I know what is significant and what is a passing reference with no detail behind it. But not everyone has my depth of knowledge; newer players will be wholly reliant on current publications to get their understanding. Once they get into it, they can learn more through the various online wikis, but the books available to them should give them a suitable starting off point to tell them what is important in the setting, particularly through the lens of their chosen army.

Which brings me to the prompt for this post, the recent Blood Angels codex supplement. Having read through it, I think it utterly fails at delivering the right information for a new player to understand the place of that army in the setting. Being focussed on the Blood Angels, it should surely highlight the most recent events of significance to the chapter. But it doesn’t, not properly.

By way of example, throughout the book it makes reference to the attack of Hive Fleet Leviathan on Baal. Much of the background material talks about current actions taken in response to this attack, such as needing to ‘drive out the Tyranids of Hive Fleet Leviathan from the Red Scar’ or talking about which successors arrived in time. This is good, the timeline is evolving! But nowhere does it outright say what actually happened on Baal. As an invested player, I know that story beat, but I suspect these teasing references would be very frustrating and confusing to a newer player.

Worse still, it means that it is unclear what has more depth behind it and what is an open story point. The description of Dante mentions several campaigns from his lifetime, most of which have no detail behind them. These are great things to have as narrative hooks! But as written, I’m not sure there is any way a newer player would know those ones are just names they could choose to add detail to themselves, whereas the attack of Leviathan is a major story point.

So, to sum up, I’m frustrated with how the Blood Angeles supplement presents the lore. It focuses on the ‘current’ events in the timeline, without setting them in the ‘historic’ context. I believe this makes it difficult for newer players to engage with the lore as a jumping off point: it hints at a wider universe of lore, but makes it difficult to know where to look for more information. Which inevitably will lead to people trying to get that information from various online sources, which are best thought of as a firehose of information. Much better would be treating the codex as ‘here is what you NEED to know,’ then enabling people to dig further if they wish, or jump off into their own hobby from there.

Incidentally, perhaps part of this is having just read the ‘House of’ books for Necromunda. These do a very good job of presenting the background information for the houses, particularly through use of a timeline of the house history. I guess the above is all just a very long winded way of saying ‘there should be a timeline in the Blood Angels supplement’!

[Cheesegear]

A bit of musing on approaches to canon and presenting a setting. TL:DR, recent publications, using the example of the Blood Angels codex, have done a fairly poor job of providing the basics of the setting as a ‘jumping off point’ that provides new players with sufficient context, without having to dig deeper and be exposed to the firehose of lore online.

Blood Angels are a Chapter of Space Marines.
Their Primarch was a guy called Sanguinius. He had Wings - proper wings, that is - and could sort-of tell the future. He was killed by Horus. Then a dude called Raldoran took over.
Blood Angels like Jump Packs. Death Company are Blood Angels Space Marines that are reliving Sanguinius' death.

Except that's too much the second you decide that canon isn't important.
It's all true, or none of it is.


IÂ’m a big believer in the idea that the setting should be a jumping off point, rather than a thing that defines every single truth

You have the jumping off point.


As a non contentious example, my Blood Angels have black rims on their shoulder pads. Looking at the codex, these are no longer recognised as an ‘official’ scheme, but I chose it because I like how it looks.

Nice Angels Encarmine you've got there.


most notably choosing to have female space marines in my armies

REEEEEEEEE.
Let me tell you how to do your hobby real quick.


By way of example, throughout the book it makes reference to the attack of Hive Fleet Leviathan on Baal. Much of the background material talks about current actions taken in response to this attack, such as needing to ‘drive out the Tyranids of Hive Fleet Leviathan from the Red Scar’ or talking about which successors arrived in time. This is good, the timeline is evolving! But nowhere does it outright say what actually happened on Baal.

Maybe if you're interested, the idea is that you buy the novel Devastation of Baal?
Maybe it allows a space where you can make up what happened.
Maybe what happened on Baal that time with Tyranids and Ka'Bandha (yep, that one) was pretty complex and can't be distilled into a paragraph or two without taking up more space in the book.


As an invested player, I know that story beat, but I suspect these teasing references would be very frustrating and confusing to a newer player.

I suspect if you were to ask GW's social media team, they would point you towards Black Library and The Devastation of Baal, and encourage you to spend more money.


So, to sum up, I’m frustrated with how the Blood Angeles supplement presents the lore. It focuses on the ‘current’ events in the timeline, without setting them in the ‘historic’ context.

Nothing matters.


I believe this makes it difficult for newer players to engage with the lore as a jumping off point: it hints at a wider universe of lore, but makes it difficult to know where to look for more information. Which inevitably will lead to people trying to get that information from various online sources, which are best thought of as a firehose of information.

The problem is when you describe everything in detail, you start to get bogged down in details. Which makes it harder to write new things in the future, as grognards like me say "Wait, that's not what happened.", or "Wait, a Bolt is a caseless ammo type...", and then getting confused when that's not the case.

What side does an ex-Deathwatch service-Marine put his Deathwatch Honours on?
Does it matter? Or doesn't it matter?


Much better would be treating the codex as ‘here is what you NEED to know,’ then enabling people to dig further if they wish, or jump off into their own hobby from there.

Blood Angels are a Chapter of Space Marines. They live on Baal's Moons. Generally. Unless they don't. Maybe your dudes are a Company or two on Crusade, Baal is irrelavent. Blood Angels aren't even red. Umm...Due to your own circumstances they changed their armour's colours. Nothing actually matters. Do what you want.
Go.


I guess the above is all just a very long winded way of saying ‘there should be a timeline in the Blood Angels supplement’!

What do you need to know that for? Just make up whatever you want. What are you, some kind of Grognard?

[Avaris]

Maybe if you're interested, the idea is that you buy the novel Devastation of Baal?
Maybe it allows a space where you can make up what happened.
Maybe what happened on Baal that time with Tyranids and Ka'Bandha (yep, that one) was pretty complex and can't be distilled into a paragraph or two without taking up more space in the book.
The thing is, a lot of the stuff in the codex talks about the response to this clearly significant event, how it shaped the Blood Angels and their successors as they are now. But nowhere does it really say what it is, and that is something that is useful context for many things in the codex. The novel is a great place for more detail, but I feel the codex needs a precis of events.

A better way of explaining what I'm getting at: a major thing for 40k as a setting is 'unreliable narrator'. In theory, everything we know about the setting could be a lie. Imperial propaganda. There is no objective truth in the universe. Which leaves space for players to create their own interpretations. BUT it helps to know what you are reinterpreting: if I want to decide my captain fought in the Devastation of Baal, it would be nice to have a brief summary of why that matters in the codex. If I want, I can then go into detail with the novel. Or, I could take the key points already given and make my own spin on it. But when making that decision, it should be able to be a conscious decision; it's far better to be able to say 'I know what this said, and chose to ignore it because XYZ' than to be told 'oh, didn't you know about this?' and feel that you are unknowingly wrong.

Something like the Blood Angels supplement should be giving enough detail to know the major beats. From there, you can either read the novels and other material, or create your own spin. But the supplement as is is too much hinting and not enough actual detail on the events. It's a difficult balance!

Edit: to paraphrase Nick Fury, "I recognise the canon has made a decision, but as it's a stupid decision I've elected to ignore it." I want people to be informed enough that they feel able to ignore the canon where they want to. That's much better than someone feeling bad about a hobby decision they made which they later learn was 'incorrect'.

[LansXero]

As an invested player, I know that story beat, but I suspect these teasing references would be very frustrating and confusing to a newer player.


No? Like, at all? Like, have you ever just binged Lexicanum jumping from obscure reference to obscure reference like a dive on TVtropes? Or wondered what all those names and campaigns and things mentioned in DoW and other videogames are?

This is the internet era. Everything you need is hyperlinked and vlog'd a click away. You absolutely dont need anything beyond teasers, and being rewarded by doing a cursory search is a great way to hook people making them feel smart and 'in the know' because they can google. Keeping that tone mysterious but alluring is great, because it adds to the mysticism of the whole thing.

And then someone can just **** on the whole thing, take all that info and toss it away to go make something absurd in-setting like female space marines or corgis driving tau suits. Personally, I think asking to be presented with more info to disregard is a waste of time, but its not like the info isnt there anyways, its just split across several books because money.

[LeSwordfish]

No? Like, at all? Like, have you ever just binged Lexicanum jumping from obscure reference to obscure reference like a dive on TVtropes? Or wondered what all those names and campaigns and things mentioned in DoW and other videogames are?

This is the internet era. Everything you need is hyperlinked and vlog'd a click away. You absolutely dont need anything beyond teasers, and being rewarded by doing a cursory search is a great way to hook people making them feel smart and 'in the know' because they can google. Keeping that tone mysterious but alluring is great, because it adds to the mysticism of the whole thing.

And then someone can just **** on the whole thing, take all that info and toss it away to go make something absurd in-setting like female space marines or corgis driving tau suits. Personally, I think asking to be presented with more info to disregard is a waste of time, but its not like the info isnt there anyways, its just split across several books because money.

I think it's incompetent writing to write half a story and expect them to look the rest up on wikipedia.

[Thragka]

And I like books.

[Avaris]

No? Like, at all? Like, have you ever just binged Lexicanum jumping from obscure reference to obscure reference like a dive on TVtropes? Or wondered what all those names and campaigns and things mentioned in DoW and other videogames are?

This is the internet era. Everything you need is hyperlinked and vlog'd a click away. You absolutely dont need anything beyond teasers, and being rewarded by doing a cursory search is a great way to hook people making them feel smart and 'in the know' because they can google. Keeping that tone mysterious but alluring is great, because it adds to the mysticism of the whole thing.


Yes, it is good being able to go for a deep dive around obscure references. But the basics need to be there to encourage that: giving people enough to lure them in to that deep dive/extra novel etc. Having read the BA supplement, I don't think it hit the right level of that. It tells me that the BA really care about the Devastation of Baal, but doesn't give enough details of it to tell me why I, as a reader, should care enough to go out for a deep dive.

[Cheesegear]

This is the internet era. Everything you need is hyperlinked and vlog'd a click away.

Not necessarily.
What I want is usually found in actual book reviews on Reddit. Usually because I want what was said. Actual quotes. And I like seeing thought processes. I want to know about individuals that I want to read about.

The Assassination of Gabriel Seth (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22648225&postcount=732).

Let's check Lexicanum real quick... It's not there.
Check WH40Kwiki... Not there either.

Huh. Let's go on WH40Kwiki and see if we can find the part where Graham McNeill uses Captain Agemman as a mouthpiece to chew out Matt Ward...Not there. That's weird.

1. Someone has to have the content.
2. The person who has the content, has to be willing to bother to rewrite or paraphrase it to a site.

If that doesn't happen, then the information isn't there. Let's see what happened during the Gehenna Campaign when Dante and The Silent King agreed to an alliance... Nevermind. That's not there. Not really.

Oddly, the only almost review I can find on Trial by Blood, is on 1d4chan.


You absolutely dont need anything beyond teasers...

Technically this is correct.
But once someone starts asking...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/034/999/1de.gif


but its not like the info isnt there anyways, its just split across several books because money.

This.
If you want an event that happened, read the Codex.
If you want to know how it went down, read a Wiki.
If you want to know what individuals said and did, read a novel.

[Avaris]

This.
If you want an event that happened, read the Codex.
If you want to know how it went down, read a Wiki.
If you want to know what individuals said and did, read a novel.

This is exactly it. My problem with the BA codex is it doesn't meet the first point enough. From reading it, you get various mentions of a conflict with Hive Fleet Leviathan, but not enough to pin down the actual event that happened. All it needs is a single specific entry reading something like 'In the years prior to the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum, Baal came under threat from Hive Fleet Leviathan. Dante called on all sons of Sanguinious to defend their spiritual home, leading to many chapters fighting on Baal. But even that wasn't enough, and it seemed the angels faced extinction. Then, the great rift opened. The Hive Fleet in orbit was annihilated, but enough Tyranids remained that defeat was certain. Yet at the last, the skies open, and salvation arrived in the form of the Primarch Gulliman and the Indomitus Crusade.'

Then, if people want to read more, they can go to the wiki or the book, at which point they are shocked to learn of the involvement of the demons of Khorne!

[LansXero]

This.
If you want an event that happened, read the Codex.
If you want to know how it went down, read a Wiki.
If you want to know what individuals said and did, read a novel.

And of course, the reason why I dont get the problem with this, is arr arr matey and a bottle of rum ;)

So I guess its just one of those things I cant relate well to.

[Wraith]

Is this phenomenon so new that its surprising? I remember reading 2nd Edition Codices, wherein the 'teasers' to infamous battles weren't story-hooks, they were IC references to actual battles played by the playtesters that they particularly enjoyed and wanted to immortalise in print. No expanded story, no wiki, no follow-up novel - just "hey remember that time I had Dante fight your Carnifex and I rolled a bunch of 6's? That was cool, we should put it in the book!" :smalltongue:

I honestly don't remember GW being any different. Then again, I've played Grey Knights for the longest time, and most of their book is "And then something psychic happened, which was weird, but they couldn't tell anyone because IT'S A SECRET!" :smallbiggrin:

[Brookshw]

Then, if people want to read more, they can go to the wiki or the book, at which point they are shocked to learn of the involvement of the demons of Khorne!

Be nice if they'd footnote when events are covered in a particular book. Hello driving sales.

[Avaris]

Is this phenomenon so new that its surprising? I remember reading 2nd Edition Codices, wherein the 'teasers' to infamous battles weren't story-hooks, they were IC references to actual battles played by the playtesters that they particularly enjoyed and wanted to immortalise in print. No expanded story, no wiki, no follow-up novel - just "hey remember that time I had Dante fight your Carnifex and I rolled a bunch of 6's? That was cool, we should put it in the book!" :smalltongue:

I honestly don't remember GW being any different. Then again, I've played Grey Knights for the longest time, and most of their book is "And then something psychic happened, which was weird, but they couldn't tell anyone because IT'S A SECRET!" :smallbiggrin:

I think for me the difference is that they are now starting to actually advance the storyline, so there is a more definite idea of 'recent past' that players should have the chance to know about.

One of the things GW have said they want to do with AoS is for players to be able to feel they have played through specific eras of the setting's history. "Oh yeah, I played in the Soul Wars." I assume that they want similar for 40k. But there's a risk of leaving the newer players behind if they don't even provide the briefest idea of what the recent campaigns were: when someone says 'I played through the Soul Wars', the response should be 'oh, I've heard of that, tell me more' rather than 'what's that?' A little knowledge helps feed the curiosity!

[Platinius]

Belated Sanguinala short by Alfa, Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-NJfStKsI)

[Silverraptor]

Belated Sanguinala short by Alfa, Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5-NJfStKsI)

Technically from Eliphas.

[Mystic Muse]

Very enjoyable nonetheless.

[Grytorm]

Stubbornly seeking meaning in life. Thus I shall post random things here once more.

I once read a summary of the story of the Warhammer Fantasy character Drachenfels. And I came up with a basic explanation for him supposedly cowing the Chaos gods. Basically the Chaos gods together would have easily defeated him but he was also somehow strong enough that in a 1v1 fight he could have at least injured any one of the gods which would have left whoever tried to fight him alone vulnerable to the other three. Then one of them thought to ask what he wanted of them. And Drachenfels request for an army to wage war upon the world was pretty much what the four were thinking of doing anyway so they kind of just decided to go along with it.

Then for Total War Warhammer ideas. I brainstormed what sort of unique mechanics could be added to extant Legendary Lords. For the three main Empire LLs I would give them a shared mechanic of some sort of mission to gain organizational support in the Empire. Karl Franz would be gaining the loyalty of knightly orders. Volkmar the Grim would be working to build a unified religious structure from the diverse imperial cults. And Balthasar Gelt would be busy demonstrating the superiority of Gold Magic to the other schools. Not certain of how it would work. Probably a set of quests started by owning certain territories with three stages. Each providing unique rewards.

Brettonia mechanic ideas. Alberic de Bordeleaux would have something a little like Grombrindal's legend thing themed around differing guilds/institutions. Louen Leoncouer could have something like Markus Wulfhart's Hunters. So Louen Leoncouer would gather his former companions the greatest knights of Brettonia under his banner. And Morgianna le Fey would could have something related to religious pilgrimages or get access to some more esoteric mystical units.

And for Dwarves I came up with the idea that Thorgrim Grudgebearer could recieve quests to resolve major ancestral grudges in a system a bit like the Norscan monster hunts. Ungrim Ironfist would get a martyrdom complex where he gets buffs from having to many outstanding grudges and weird mechanics related to getting himself wounded.

Lastly I tried to brainstorm units which could be added to Brettonia which is apparently not going to happen or something. Unfortunately mostly had ideas for infantry. Displaced peasant bandits who still are loyal to Bretonnia and their traditional lords. Just that they are somewhat estranged at the moment. Then some sort of urban infantry of uncertain quality. Because Bretonnia does have cities and weaving and guilds and stuff. Only thing I could think of to distinguish them would be better leadership because they have a group identity. Also some sort of shepherd unit because it seems like shepherds and whoever takes care of horses would have some distinction in Bretonnia. Also Questing Beasts maybe as a weird fragile cavalry hunting monster or something. Thinking of this it seems to me that Bretonnia is somewhat constrained. Like, there theme is King Arthur, medieval France and England, ponymen, Crecy, and trampling your own crossbowmen. But I think a lot of stuff that fits those don't really fit into the faction as is.

Also something I found funny. I was thinking about how you can play Total War Warhammer with armies themed around different Skaven clans and how not all factions can really do it. And then I started to think about Vampire Counts and how they have ghosts, ghouls, barrow wights and children of the night. And then I started to think about how those could have been expanded upon allowing for a variety of thematic undead armies. And then I remembered the Nighthaunts and the Flesh-eater Courts.

[snowblizz]

I once read a summary of the story of the Warhammer Fantasy character Drachenfels.

Drachenfels... yeah best forget about Drachenfels. The original books were written at a time when BL desperately was trying to start up by authors who knew nothing about the Warhammer world and were not interested in learning about or investing themselves in the background. Most of them did contract work not under their own name and with the specific understanding they do not have to adhere to Warhammer lore.



And I came up with a basic explanation for him supposedly cowing the Chaos gods. Even in the book Drachenfels actively worships Chaos. In the most pedestrian slapdash way imaginable but still.



Lastly I tried to brainstorm units which could be added to Brettonia which is apparently not going to happen or something. Unfortunately mostly had ideas for infantry. Displaced peasant bandits who still are loyal to Bretonnia and their traditional lords. Just that they are somewhat estranged at the moment. Then some sort of urban infantry of uncertain quality. Because Bretonnia does have cities and weaving and guilds and stuff. Only thing I could think of to distinguish them would be better leadership because they have a group identity. Also some sort of shepherd unit because it seems like shepherds and whoever takes care of horses would have some distinction in Bretonnia. Also Questing Beasts maybe as a weird fragile cavalry hunting monster or something. Thinking of this it seems to me that Bretonnia is somewhat constrained. Like, there theme is King Arthur, medieval France and England, ponymen, Crecy, and trampling your own crossbowmen. But I think a lot of stuff that fits those don't really fit into the faction as is.
The problem is that by the time you have imported all parts of the mediaeval society into Bretonnia you end up with the Empire. This is why very specifically Bretonnia didn't have much of infantry presence, especially not one based around actual feudal cities and towns, because think ordered infantry with pike/halberds and crossbowmen...

Broadly speaking this also holds. When you start expanding a factions unit base you eventually end up in a place where everyone looks more or less the same. GW had the same problem with it's product-lines too in their never-ending quest to sell a shrinking player-base new stuff every month.

The later stage of the Warhammer game, before all that Age of Sigmar nonsense already saw a vast expansion of units filling most armies lists up well beyond their capacity to absorb thematically. Some of the army concepts are so slim that it is hard to meaningfully expand them too much.


Also something I found funny. I was thinking about how you can play Total War Warhammer with armies themed around different Skaven clans and how not all factions can really do it. And then I started to think about Vampire Counts and how they have ghosts, ghouls, barrow wights and children of the night. And then I started to think about how those could have been expanded upon allowing for a variety of thematic undead armies. And then I remembered the Nighthaunts and the Flesh-eater Courts.
Of the major Skaven clans only Eshin has trouble working on an army level. There was a series of articles in White Dwarf with expanded armylists based around the major clans. All this goes back to the narrowness of the theme "Vampire Counts" started out as "Undead" a concept broad enough it could be split into 2 large effectively separated thematic concepts with room to spare. Even then Vampire Counts is a rich enough vein to mine for several distinct concepts. Whereas Skaven still was also large enough of a concept (though I hesitate to describe the Skaven theme lest I fall afoul of the board rules) to cut down into factions, Eshin really boils down to "Err... ninjas and more ninja-y ninjas I guess?". It just doesn't scale up well. Another example here that comes to mind, Dwarf Slayers. The concept of taking that into an entire army was insane, and it's no surprise the mechanics/playability for it on the tabletop was so-so. From the perspective of what makes enjoyable games.

[Wraith]

All this goes back to the narrowness of the theme "Vampire Counts" started out as "Undead" a concept broad enough it could be split into 2 large effectively separated thematic concepts with room to spare. Even then Vampire Counts is a rich enough vein to mine for several distinct concepts.

They did just that towards the end of Warhammer Fantasy, but then converged them back into 'mixed bloodlines' without distinct cultures in the End Times - not just splitting Undead into Necromantic (Vampires and 'monsters') and Khemri (Ancient Egypt and Skeletons), but Vampires themselves were split into 5 distinct 'Clans':

Blood Knights - Evil Not-Bretonnia
Lahmia - Sort-of Khemri troops with sort-of Dark Elven Magic
Von Carstein - Traditional all-rounders with a mix of zombies, ghosts, etc
Strigoi - Monstrous generals with a tendency towards 'living undead' troops like Ghouls
Necrarch - Super-Wizards

They could be a bit wonky on the tabletop sometimes, but I miss the bloodlines. It opened up a vein (as it were...) of lore that went right back to Nagash and his genesis as a human wizard, and some of the models that were made for them were excellent centrepieces. It really gave people a jumping-off point around which to theme an army too, rather than just 'generic Vampire leading undead troops'.

[Avaris]

They did just that towards the end of Warhammer Fantasy, but then converged them back into 'mixed bloodlines' without distinct cultures in the End Times - not just splitting Undead into Necromantic (Vampires and 'monsters') and Khemri (Ancient Egypt and Skeletons), but Vampires themselves were split into 5 distinct 'Clans':

Blood Knights - Evil Not-Bretonnia
Lahmia - Sort-of Khemri troops with sort-of Dark Elven Magic
Von Carstein - Traditional all-rounders with a mix of zombies, ghosts, etc
Strigoi - Monstrous generals with a tendency towards 'living undead' troops like Ghouls
Necrarch - Super-Wizards

They could be a bit wonky on the tabletop sometimes, but I miss the bloodlines. It opened up a vein (as it were...) of lore that went right back to Nagash and his genesis as a human wizard, and some of the models that were made for them were excellent centrepieces. It really gave people a jumping-off point around which to theme an army too, rather than just 'generic Vampire leading undead troops'.

It was also good because most of the army used the same basic troops, i.e. skeletons. So you could happily have vampires from multiple bloodlines in your collection and change them around a bit for a particular game, perhaps with one or two key units changing as well.

[Eldan]

I always liked the Strigoi the most. THeir background is great, as were their powers. I guess some of that got integrated into the Flesheater Courts, but AoS, so eh.

Still, the idea that they had an actual nation and cities of humans they ruled (and well enough the still have humans serving them) is fascinating. Despite being cannibalistic serial killer monsters with armies of ghouls.

[snowblizz]

They did just that towards the end of Warhammer Fantasy, but then converged them back into 'mixed bloodlines' without distinct cultures in the End Times - not just splitting Undead into Necromantic (Vampires and 'monsters') and Khemri (Ancient Egypt and Skeletons), but Vampires themselves were split into 5 distinct 'Clans':

Blood Knights - Evil Not-Bretonnia
Lahmia - Sort-of Khemri troops with sort-of Dark Elven Magic
Von Carstein - Traditional all-rounders with a mix of zombies, ghosts, etc
Strigoi - Monstrous generals with a tendency towards 'living undead' troops like Ghouls
Necrarch - Super-Wizards

They could be a bit wonky on the tabletop sometimes, but I miss the bloodlines. It opened up a vein (as it were...) of lore that went right back to Nagash and his genesis as a human wizard, and some of the models that were made for them were excellent centrepieces. It really gave people a jumping-off point around which to theme an army too, rather than just 'generic Vampire leading undead troops'.
Yea that was *exactly* what I was referring to. "Undeath" and then "Vampires" as a concept had so much popular culture and traditions attached it could feed several subfactions of "vampire theme".
You also had "Vampire Pirates", even got a armylist in White Dwarf, and then in Storm of Chaos you get the "Empire/Sylvania" mixlist.

Things like Kislev (the main steppe people theme already co-opted by Chaos) and Bretonnia to a certain degree are so much thinner concepts. I'll note "the Empire" was also broad enough that effectively the Ogre Kingdoms are a successor race (though OK itself only worked by effectively totally reimagining ogres, effectively taking a small concept and building an entirely new thing atop it). And it was possible to fairly successfully create regionally themed armies. Incidentally the Kislev armylist never really graduated to anything more than auxillary force.

Not sure what I was saying anymore but something along the lines of "don't try to make up too many units in an already too shallow pool of ideas". It only really works if you make up enough new stuff which buries the original concept. Or again, if we start adding all kinds of stuff to Bretonnia we will soon find it doesn't look or feel like the original concept anymore.

[Eldan]

I remember that when the Ogres first came out, they actually felt a lot like orcs up to 11. Big infantry brutes and goblinoids, and specialized war machines and monsters.

[snowblizz]

I remember that when the Ogres first came out, they actually felt a lot like orcs up to 11. Big infantry brutes and goblinoids, and specialized war machines and monsters.

Indeed. Beastmen variously got lumped in as "Brown Orcs" (the 6th ed tide-me-over lists effectively were that) and OK could be "Big Orcs". They all draw from the "barbarians" archetype, which should be broad enough, but then regular Chaos also uses it. Even a rich archetype suffers when too many concepts try to make use of it.

Elves are basically Good, Neutral and Evil elves, and this just about works. But IMO at leat High Elfs were ridiculously pushing the limits of feasible unit concepts at the end. E.g. they didn't seem able to decide if eagles, dragons or phoenixes are the thematic monster so bam! we go all of them. None of it adding character as much as killing us with choices. A 4th elf faction e.g. would be very difficult to shoehorn in thematically. Similarly Chaos was heading right into everything for everyone territory IMO collapsing under it's own weight of stuff.

Age of Sigmar as a whole what little I've looked on it basically smashes up the classic tropes to try and create trademarkable "unique" tropes. Elves lumped together, Orcs and Ogres now the same "neutral warriors barbarians" or something like that.

[Wraith]

Yea that was *exactly* what I was referring to. "Undeath" and then "Vampires" as a concept had so much popular culture and traditions attached it could feed several subfactions of "vampire theme".

I feel like the problem for GW is that if they kept the Vampire Counts book around and also had Khemri armies, it left the generic 'Undead/Necromantic' army somewhat anaemic. Either that or they just ran out of imagination.

Let's have 5 different types of Vampire and they all use Undead troops in different ratios - that sounds cool. Now, what else do Undead armies have?

...

... Uhh... Nagash, I guess? Except that he's a big part of the End Times and we can't just have him 'only' be a Necromantic hero because that excludes ~70% of the undead population from Khemria. Besides; he's a big skeleton now rather than an Evil Clown, we *have* to have him leading Khemri Armies if just for that.

Necromancers? A normal human Wizard who is inferior in every way to a Necrarch? Hardly a selling point and somewhat lacking in ambition. Even the named character, Heinrich Kemmler, was just a dude with a book and a big hat.

I think they should have introduced 'Frankenstein'-style Mad Scientists to the lore, quite frankly. It might have been weird to include "science" into the 'animated by dark magic' faction but it's worked for Dwarfs and Skaven so it could have been fun. Hell, why not have Dwarf and Skaven characters who have found a way to raise the dead and use THEM as the Necromantic faction, and fill their units with Golems and constructs who can throw lightning about as a gimmick? That would be great!

Or make one of the special characters a sentient Zombie/Lich Dragon. Warhammer always needs more Dragons, in my opinion. Then again, I said the same thing about the Sons of Behemoth - who wants giants (tall humans dressed in a loin cloth) when you could have an army of Dragons, or huge Star Spawn, or ocean-dwelling Leviathan, or something? :smalltongue:


Things like Kislev (the main steppe people theme already co-opted by Chaos) and Bretonnia to a certain degree are so much thinner concepts. I'll note "the Empire" was also broad enough that effectively the Ogre Kingdoms are a successor race.

Ogre Kingdoms at least filled a niche - they were the army that used Big Monsters On Big Bases And Nothing Else, so they had some mechanical value.

Kislev was never really a thing even in the old editions - for a long, long time they were just another variant of the Empire faction with their own special character, or they were just fluff to explain where your non-Chaos Warrior human troops came from. That's all they really needed to be, I think.

Bretonnia was always the difficult child. Everything was stacked so heavily on their theme being Mounted Knights that the instant any other army picked up decent mounted units - the Empire for one, and later Dark Elves were hugely dominant in the meta too - then there was no reason to use them. They really needed a good, hard reboot to give them something else worthwhile, but instead they entered the deadly spiral of no one wanting to play them, so they weren't given any new releases, so no one wanted to play them....

[Destro_Yersul]

Of the major Skaven clans only Eshin has trouble working on an army level. There was a series of articles in White Dwarf with expanded armylists based around the major clans. All this goes back to the narrowness of the theme "Vampire Counts" started out as "Undead" a concept broad enough it could be split into 2 large effectively separated thematic concepts with room to spare. Even then Vampire Counts is a rich enough vein to mine for several distinct concepts. Whereas Skaven still was also large enough of a concept (though I hesitate to describe the Skaven theme lest I fall afoul of the board rules) to cut down into factions, Eshin really boils down to "Err... ninjas and more ninja-y ninjas I guess?". It just doesn't scale up well. Another example here that comes to mind, Dwarf Slayers. The concept of taking that into an entire army was insane, and it's no surprise the mechanics/playability for it on the tabletop was so-so. From the perspective of what makes enjoyable games.

I mean, the Skaven 'theme' is basically just "Mad science and rat stereotypes." And bells. Lots of bells.


Ogre Kingdoms at least filled a niche - they were the army that used Big Monsters On Big Bases And Nothing Else, so they had some mechanical value.

Gnoblars will remember this

[The Glyphstone]

Whatever happened to Chaos Dwarfs again, while we are discussing redundant army lists?

[Wraith]

Whatever happened to Chaos Dwarfs again, while we are discussing redundant army lists?

In terms of GW, marketing and the likes, they were the Warhammer Fantasy equivalent to Sisters of Battle.
They had an army long, long ago (4th edition WHFB) that never got updated, or if it did, only as a White Dwarf version that didn't come with any new models after about ~1999 or so. They pretty much hit the same downward spiral as Bretonnia, albeit much earlier - an edition changed so people stopped buying them in preparation for the next new update, but they didn't get updated very quickly, so no one bought them, and because no one was buying them they didn't get updated.... etc.

Because they never had that big of a list available in the first place, GW just let them slip into the long night except in very minor pieces of lore or in Blood Bowl, and even that was recently brought to an end. No one was interested in an army that was "Dwarfs, but with worse troops, and worse war-machines, and worse magic" that was also hard to collect and dumb looking anyway.

Despite some very impressive pieces put out by Forgeworld when the Legions of Azgorth warscroll was released at the advent of AoS, it wasn't enough to bring back an army that no one had been able to buy for over 15 years, not when rival companies like Mantic Games were already releasing their own version of much better supported "Abyssal Dwarfs". Forgeworld was, as always, WAY too expensive and again were never promised to get a 'proper' update so buying them to play with was a fool's errand.

In the Lore, they just became a part of the generic 'Chaos' brand. They're no longer considered Chaos DWARFS and are just considered CHAOS dwarfs - to give them a 40k equivalent they're now like the Dark Mechanicus, just hanging out and building Daemon Weapons and ruling enormous darksteel forges but don't bother to make appearances themselves. Some of them ended up in the Realm of Fire alongside normal Dwarfs, more or less doing the same thing and keeping out of each others' way.

[Fyraltari]

So, I was thinking, there are four major chaos gods and each of them is tied to an emotion: Khorne is anger, Tzeentch is hope, Nurgle is despair and Slaanesh is pleasure. But, as far as I know, there are also four minor chaos gods (which goes well with the eight-pointed star logo): Malal/Malice, Hashut, Necoho and the (Great) Horned Rat. So I wonder, what emotions do they deal in?

Here are my ideas:

Necoho is doubt. That one is a no-brainer he's the god of not believing in gods.
Malice is self-loathing: that's the closest emotion I've got to the concept of chaos fighting itself.
Hashut I would say "obedience" maybe? He's supposed to be the god of tyranny and progress but progress seems more like Tzeentch's deal and tyranny applies to all chaos gods so I'm thinking he'd the god of "I was just following orders", those who commit atrocities not because they want to but because they have a boss telling them to?
Horned Rat, I just don't know. Spite maybe? His thing is just rats (which isn't tied to any emotion I can't think of) and destroying other people's stuff for no reason. Or maybe envy as three of his four types of daemons are plagiarized on other gods?

Any idea?

[noob]

So, I was thinking, there are four major chaos gods and each of them is tied to an emotion: Khorne is anger, Tzeentch is hope, Nurgle is despair and Slaanesh is pleasure. But, as far as I know, there are also four minor chaos gods (which goes well with the eight-pointed star logo): Malal/Malice, Hashut, Necoho and the (Great) Horned Rat. So I wonder, what emotions do they deal in?

Here are my ideas:

Necoho is doubt. That one is a no-brainer he's the god of not believing in gods.
Malice is self-loathing: that's the closest emotion I've got to the concept of chaos fighting itself.
Hashut I would say "obedience" maybe? He's supposed to be the god of tyranny and progress but progress seems more like Tzeentch's deal and tyranny applies to all chaos gods so I'm thinking he'd the god of "I was just following orders", those who commit atrocities not because they want to but because they have a boss telling them to?
Horned Rat, I just don't know. Spite maybe? His thing is just rats (which isn't tied to any emotion I can't think of) and destroying other people's stuff for no reason. Or maybe envy as three of his four types of daemons are plagiarized on other gods?

Any idea?

Progress is something modern days tzeentch got but maybe tzeentch did not have progress as an attribution in the past?
Did they have it back then?
Also chaos gods does not have to make sense: all they need is for enough people to fuel them raw thoughts and feelings.
If they had to be each linked to one emotion and that they needed to make sense then the first emotion to create chaos gods would probably be fear and fear being a very common emotion would keep that chaos god at the top so I think it is not just about emotions(or maybe there is a constant fight between varied chaos gods inspiring varied fears killing each other and due to that they barely ever interact with the world).

[Wraith]

Remember that the Chaos Gods don't subsist on just one emotion each. Khorne is also the patron of honour as well as rage, Slaanesh is Agony as well as Ecstasy, and so on. There's no reason that some of their related lesser deities can't over-lap with them just as human/dwarf/elf Gods do as well.

Officially, Malal isn't a Chaos God. He was written out of the setting because GW don't hold the copyright for him any more, and any references to him are so outdated that there's barely anything in the lore that resembles what it did when he was still around. Same with Necoho, in fact - they both only appeared in the WFRP game's 1st Edition which was quite different to the tabletop lore even back then.

Hashut is... weird. He's thought of as being a Chaos God, but he's never acknowledged by any of the non-Dwarf forces of Chaos so he could be either a Greater Demon masquerading as something more powerful in order to keep a little kingdom for itself, or he could be "something else" that turned up during the Great Catastrophe.

Unofficially, I think he's supposed to be a cross between a Mesopotamian Demon (hence his title of 'the Father of Darkness' and the Babylonian look of Chaos Dwarfs) and a Balrog, albeit with the serial numbers filed off. Something dark and evil from the underworld that proclaimed itself a God, and is certainly is powerful enough to be divine, but isn't a member of the Chaos Pantheon. There are several around, after all - the pre-Nagash Khemrian Gods, and the expanded Imperial pantheon all tangibly exist and subside on things other than the 4 basic emotions.

Assuming he even has one, Hashut's emotional portfolio would probably be fear and despair. He's not really into honourable combat like Khorne, but he does demand HUGE numbers of ritualistic blood-sacrifices in order to grant his favour to the Chaos Dwarfs so that seems appropriate.

As for the Great Horned Rat, ambition is probably his key trait - he has spent an eternity scheming to overthrow the world and has long encouraged his children to do the same. According to the WFRP sourcebooks he also considered Skaven making utterances of "hate, malice or envy" to be his prayers, so any kind of spite seems to be his thing, too.

[Keraunograf]

Great Horned Rat is specifically themed to hunger, IMO. Hunger for more power(Ambition), hunger for what others have(envy), hunger for just plain food(gluttony), etc.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

[Keraunograf]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

Maybe the Great Maw is also the Horned Rat, or maybe they do different kinds of hunger, or maybe The Great Maw isn't actually a Chaos entity and is just extraplanar of some other sort, hell if I know, but I've 100% always associated the Horned Rat with Hunger.

[LansXero]

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

No, Ogres are always hungry because they're a weapon.

Ogres were made to be extremely resistant to chaos while also being ravenous and phisically mighty. However, the old ones got roflstomped way too quickly and didn't get to raise the ogres in time. So they were left there until the volcano ( the great maw) erupted and released them.

[Grytorm]

No, Ogres are always hungry because they're a weapon.

Ogres were made to be extremely resistant to chaos while also being ravenous and phisically mighty. However, the old ones got roflstomped way too quickly and didn't get to raise the ogres in time. So they were left there until the volcano ( the great maw) erupted and released them.

I once saw discussion of how to add 40k things to fantasy. One idea was to add Kroot in as another less psychotic weapons project by the Old Ones in the !Africa continent. And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

[Fyraltari]

Progress is something modern days tzeentch got but maybe tzeentch did not have progress as an attribution in the past?
Did they have it back then?
Well, progress is a form of change and change is definitely in Tzeentch's portfolio.



Remember that the Chaos Gods don't subsist on just one emotion each. Khorne is also the patron of honour as well as rage, Slaanesh is Agony as well as Ecstasy, and so on. There's no reason that some of their related lesser deities can't over-lap with them just as human/dwarf/elf Gods do as well.

Officially, Malal isn't a Chaos God. He was written out of the setting because GW don't hold the copyright for him any more, and any references to him are so outdated that there's barely anything in the lore that resembles what it did when he was still around.
Didn't they bring him back as Malice with the Sons of Malice chaos Space Marines?

Same with Necoho, in fact - they both only appeared in the WFRP game's 1st Edition which was quite different to the tabletop lore even back then.
Shame.


Hashut is... weird. He's thought of as being a Chaos God, but he's never acknowledged by any of the non-Dwarf forces of Chaos so he could be either a Greater Demon masquerading as something more powerful in order to keep a little kingdom for itself, or he could be "something else" that turned up during the Great Catastrophe.

Unofficially, I think he's supposed to be a cross between a Mesopotamian Demon (hence his title of 'the Father of Darkness' and the Babylonian look of Chaos Dwarfs) and a Balrog, albeit with the serial numbers filed off. Something dark and evil from the underworld that proclaimed itself a God, and is certainly is powerful enough to be divine, but isn't a member of the Chaos Pantheon. There are several around, after all - the pre-Nagash Khemrian Gods, and the expanded Imperial pantheon all tangibly exist and subside on things other than the 4 basic emotions.
I think Hashut has to be chaos related because, well, they're the Chaos dwarfs, not the dark dwarfs or some such. As for the rest of chaos not acknowledging him, they don't acknowledge the Horned Rat in AoS even after he's taken Slaanesh's spot, so maybe they're just pricks?



Great Horned Rat is specifically themed to hunger, IMO. Hunger for more power(Ambition), hunger for what others have(envy), hunger for just plain food(gluttony), etc.
Ooh, I like this one.

But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?
Wait is the Great Maw actually a sentient entity? I thought it was essentially a hole in the ground that the ogres jist kind if decided was divine at some point? At the very least, it's not chaos, is it?

[The Glyphstone]

The 8th edition Ogre Kingdoms book apparently has this to say, taken from the wiki:



The strongest and hardiest of the Ogres found themselves even after having eater their weaker brethren , found that the gnawing hunger that visited upon them at the Great Maw's landing would not leave them. No longer able to cross into Cathay due to the poisonous desolation left in the comets wake, the majority of the survivors migrated to the mountain ranges to the west in search of new homeland and respite from the great drought however, one of the oldest legends tell of Groth Onefinger who went further into the desert with the intent of offering sacrifices to the new and powerful god. What he found had since been depicted on a thousand gut-plates and banners, and is forever enched into the history of the Ogres. Before him stretched a gigantic, gaping crater the size of an inland sea, filled with ridge upon ridge of jagged teeth and rippling, convulsing muscles that stretched down and down into nothingness; a gullet so huge it could swallow a race like the Ogres and still hunger for more. It exists there even now, a vile, pulsing god visited upon the face of the world by the vengeful gods.

To this day many Ogres follow in the footsteps of Groth, the first prophet of the Maw, in a pilgrimage to their deity few return, for the Great Maw still hungers. Its presence still writhers like a malevolent worm in the minds of the Ogres, beckoning them forward one by one. So it is that the Ogres travel the world, subconsciously the relentlessness planted in them by their gluttonous god at the time of its birth. Those that have crossed the ocean claim that there is another maw on the other side of the world, a vast, fanged whirlpool that devours any ships that stray to close to it, but these claims are dismissed by the more civilized races as superstition for how could a comet gnaw its way through the core of the planet?


So there's apparently something alive out there, since some of those pilgrims do make it back and presumably saw it in person.

[Fyraltari]

And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.



Before him stretched a gigantic, gaping crater the size of an inland sea, filled with ridge upon ridge of jagged teeth and rippling, convulsing muscles that stretched down and down into nothingness; a gullet so huge it could swallow a race like the Ogres and still hunger for more.

[...]

Those that have crossed the ocean claim that there is another maw on the other side of the world, a vast, fanged whirlpool that devours any ships that stray to close to it, but these claims are dismissed by the more civilized races as superstition for how could a comet gnaw its way through the core of the planet?

Well, that took care of itself.

[hamishspence]

The "fanged whirlpool" got covered more in the Dreadfleet spinoff. Basically, it's in its own separate dimension - the Galleon's Graveyard, and "draws in death" instead of drawing in life.

[Forum Explorer]

I once saw discussion of how to add 40k things to fantasy. One idea was to add Kroot in as another less psychotic weapons project by the Old Ones in the !Africa continent. And an idea to add !Tyranids by making them be the indigenous wildlife of !Australia.

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

In computer programming ! = NOT

I know I often use it as that in my typing.

[Wraith]

I think Hashut has to be chaos related because, well, they're the Chaos dwarfs, not the dark dwarfs or some such.

The main reasons that I give the Balrog theory some credence is because there are other Gods out in the Warhammer universe which are neither Old Ones nor Chaos Gods, so an unaligned-but-still-evil God is quite plausible. Also, the Chaos Dwarfs don't call themselves Chaos Dwarfs - they're Dawi-Zharr which is Fire-Dwarfs - I admit that doesn't necessarily mean a lot, especially if Hashut is a Greater Daemon in disguise, but they at least consider themselves separate from the Chaos powers.


Maybe [the Chaos Gods] are just pricks?

This is, of course, an entirely reasonable assessment, too. :smalltongue:


But hunger's explicitly The Great Maw's schtick, isn't it? That's why ogres are always hungry?

Like Glyphstone said - if The Colours From Space landed and turned into a 5 mile-wide Sarlacc, that would be the Great Maw. I have always interpreted it as representing literal physical hunger, whereas the Horned Rat is emotional hunger including envy, jealousy, ambition and the likes.

[Amechra]

Also is using ! as a prefix meaning not at all standard or did I just make it up?

I've seen it plenty of times in older nerd/fandom discussions, but usually as not!Australia or the like. It's generally used to highlight a specific trait of whatever you're talking about - so not!Australia's most important trait is that it's "legally distinct wink wink nudge nudge" from Australia.

Here's more information than you probably wanted. (https://www.katharinemccain.com/single-post/2018/09/07/fic-things-what-s-up-with-that-strangebang)

[Platinius]

While most of you have probably already seen this video, I do find it interesting, in part because the speech of the Primaris Marine is kind of Purple Prose (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleProse), not unlike the gratuitous style imperial officers write their memoirs in.

Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyGDo1ARpjI)

Also, from what I heard about the purple prose used by the imperial officers, the Primaris Marine is actually pretty subdued in his style^^

[Wraith]

Most of the Primaris that I've read about are nowhere near as verbose. The ones in War of Secrets are constantly on the edge of thumping their chests and going "Oo-rah!", and it's actually slightly distracting how 'normal' they are compared to the formality of the Firstborn - even ones like Khârn who, despite being brain-damaged and speaking in a language described as a 'mongrel-tongue', manages some eloquence when he wants to.

[Renegade Paladin]

While most of you have probably already seen this video, I do find it interesting, in part because the speech of the Primaris Marine is kind of Purple Prose (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PurpleProse), not unlike the gratuitous style imperial officers write their memoirs in.

Enjoy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyGDo1ARpjI)

Also, from what I heard about the purple prose used by the imperial officers, the Primaris Marine is actually pretty subdued in his style^^

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

[Lord Raziere]

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

sorry I get your point, but all I can do is shrug and say "Thats WH40k for ya" because detailing the brave sacrifice of the guardsmen while simultaneously hypocritically stomping upon that sacrifice by having the shiniest, latest space marine model deliver it mid-smackdown while still calling the guy a sack of meat just like the Chaos Marine is an entirely WH40k thing to do.

[Kris Strife]

That interpretation wrecks the entire original intent of "Pity the Guardsman," which is supposed to be the Guardsman's defiant and futile spitting in the face of his captor. Having a Marine deliver the speech mid-heroic rescue just misses the whole point.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that way about that animation.

[Grytorm]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

[Mystic Muse]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

My only issue with this, and I do mean only issue, is that all of the established Primarchs are male.

Easy enough to fix in headcanon/fanon, much harder to fix in the actual setting.

[Avaris]

My only issue with this, and I do mean only issue, is that all of the established Primarchs are male.

Easy enough to fix in headcanon/fanon, much harder to fix in the actual setting.

I’m not sure how that creates an issue for Grytorm’s suggestion? The faction saying ‘no girls allowed’ could be the Emperor, so he makes all the Primarchs male, but then later someone else finds notes from Astarte which shows that restriction is nonsense. After all, men have daughters all the time.

My personal headcanon just has some of the primarchs as female though. I maintain that GW has missed two opportunities to introduce female marines: the first was when the Horus Heresy novels started, the second was Primaris marines (when apparently it was the plan, but they got cold feet).

Approaches to introducing female marines vary a lot among advocates for it. My personal preference is not to make it a big thing, I just have some female marines in my collection, and as far as I’m concerned they’ve always been there. Others like to have a purely female chapter as its own thing, or go with a thing like Grytorm said. Ultimately, it’s putting your own interpretation on the setting, so there are a vaariety of approaches.

[Cheesegear]

I maintain that GW has missed two opportunities to introduce female marines: the first was when the Horus Heresy novels started

Which book would you have done it in?
I don't think the Horus Heresy series - especially in the beginning - is an opportunity to do anything remotely setting-shattering.

If there were going to be female Space Marines, GW should've thought about that back in 1993. They chose not to, and continued to choose not to all the way up to now, in fact.


the second was Primaris marines (when apparently it was the plan, but they got cold feet).

As a new storyline, this was when it should have been done. Everything that came before, still happened and is intact. Don't grow a neckbeard while arguing on the internet just yet, it's fine. After all, anything that isn't new, is old, and anything old, is ****, and therefore irrelevant. Why retcon history when you don't have to, when it isn't part of your business plan? And could in fact, hurt it?


My personal preference is not to make it a big thing...

You're doing 202x wrong. Female Space Marines should dominate the blog cycle for at least two months, if not longer. It would probably be the biggest thing to happen to 40K since 3rd Ed.


Ultimately, itÂ’s putting your own interpretation on the setting...

In which case we fall back on:
Nothing Matters and No-One Cares. Do What You Want.

[Gareth3]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

[noob]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

Maybe the Tyranids were just fleeing their own chaos gods?
Imagine the people running away from the milky way toward the tyranids and finding worse chaos gods?

[Cheesegear]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this?

Yes and No. The Chaos Gods - more or less - are attracted to life. Where there is life, there are Chaos Gods. The Silent King himself spent a lot of time in self-imposed exile between Galaxies, where nothing and no-one could get at him, where he waited for life in the Milky Way to implode on itself...Spoiler alert; It didn't.

But, if you got a few people to survive in the void, that would work. If a lot of people got the same idea, and there was a sizable population of Humanoids, with the corresponding psychic bubble that any sizable population has, you'd get the Chaos Gods again.

You'd be safe from influence by the Chaos Gods as long as you were by yourself and/or didn't have a Warp signature (e.g; Like the Silent King).

[Kris Strife]

I thought it was the warp/immaterium itself that relied on sentient beings to be produced, and that getting enough sentients far enough away from the galaxy would just create a new pocket of it, that might, in time, create another Chaos god, but the current 4 wouldn't be able to access said pocket?

[Forum Explorer]

I found an interesting idea on 1d4chan: the Chaos Gods are local to the Milky Way galaxy, and if you left it, you'd be safe from attacks or influence from Chaos. Is there any canon support for this? This could inspire a "Battlestar Galactica" scenario where one faction or a part of it tries to flee the Galaxy.

I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, but there is some evidence for it. Namely the Tyranids have had to adapt to fighting Chaos, which in of itself, didn't initially know what Tyranids were. So that suggests that it's the first encounter for both of them, which likely means that Chaos as we know it is exclusive to this galaxy.

I've always wanted to write a Craftworld that has that as it's exact goal. To leave and go to another galaxy, in order to escape Chaos, Tyranids, and whatever else.


On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

[Cheesegear]

On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

Why? There's whole novels dedicated to that exact concept. The Deathwatch RPG is based almost entirely around it. :smallconfused:
That's why it's notable when the Salamanders and Logan Grimnar (and only Logan Grimnar) treat Guardsmen as people, instead of as ablative wounds.

Stating that they're abhuman, introverted monsters in all but name, wouldn't be family friendly. So that's probably why it's not in the Codecies, and Space Marines are basically treated as really big, really strong humans...But otherwise human.

[Wraith]

I thought it was the warp/immaterium itself that relied on sentient beings to be produced, and that getting enough sentients far enough away from the galaxy would just create a new pocket of it, that might, in time, create another Chaos god, but the current 4 wouldn't be able to access said pocket?

The answer is 'Maybe'.

You are correct in that emotions power the warp, but the warp has always been there even before the Gods and Daemons were formed. It was quiet and empty, but the raw essence of the stuff existed, waiting to be moulded, and once it had been awakened then it had always been awake.... if you follow me. Like Slaanesh - it was born in the 30th millennium, and once it was born, then it had always existed? The warp is the same - even when it wasn't being used, it was there, waiting.

But also; Chaos is not restricted only to the Warp. Daemons can manifest outside of the Eye of Terror, Sorcery works in real-space, corruption can happen to someone no matter their background or location. Just being far away from the Milky Way would probably take you away from the worst of the Gods' influence, but as long as you take emotions with you then you're never truly safe from them.

Warp-capable ships can travel beyond the edge of the galaxy - Solar Macharius did it - so there is warpspace there, the only thing holding them back is that they lose sight of the Astronomicon and have no means of navigating. If they could find a similar point of reference to aim at as their destination, travelling to another galaxy would just be a matter of time.

Similarly, the Warp gets described as an Ocean but really acts more like a Time-Wimey-Bubble in that you don't just sail through it, but you can go in it, over it and between it too - you can sail into the Eye of Terror one day, and sail out of the Maelstrom another, if you know the routes and tides.
So, it's not as though leaving this galaxy and establishing a new Empire in Andromeda would help you - in theory, it would be possible to enter the warp in one side and exit it in the other, the empty space in between being psychologically freakish but not particularly impregnable.

It'd probably be like the Webway, come to think of it - if you know an entrance big enough then you can fly a ship into the webway and travel FTL through the 'tunnels', which are more or less safe but also oppressively empty of any kind of stimulus - no light, no radiation, no radio waves, just claustrophobic blackness in every direction, with the vague prayer of hoping that you're pointing in the right direction to find the exit.

Then again, all of this might be wrong and the Chaos Gods could absolutely get to you if they chose to turn their attention your way. The End Times for Warhammer Fantasy Battles ends this way - the Old World snuffs out like the last candle in a dark room, and the Chaos Gods just turn away and wander off to find a new universe to play with.
If they can and do traverse universes and realities in search of playthings, something as small as 'the next galaxy over' is probably quite trivial.

[Eldan]

I don't think it's confirmed one way or the other, but there is some evidence for it. Namely the Tyranids have had to adapt to fighting Chaos, which in of itself, didn't initially know what Tyranids were. So that suggests that it's the first encounter for both of them, which likely means that Chaos as we know it is exclusive to this galaxy.

I've always wanted to write a Craftworld that has that as it's exact goal. To leave and go to another galaxy, in order to escape Chaos, Tyranids, and whatever else.


On the topic of Marines, I kinda want a paragraph of fluff in their codex talking about how much of their humanity they've lost.

IT would be interesting to see if the Eldar could survive that. Kind of all their technology is warp-reliant, especially their manufacturing. If they can't sing stuff into existence anymore, I'd think they'd be kind of screwed.

Maybe some Eldar could settle a hollowed-out asteroid with some Exodites and sling it towards Andromeda.

[Avaris]

Why? There's whole novels dedicated to that exact concept. The Deathwatch RPG is based almost entirely around it. :smallconfused:
That's why it's notable when the Salamanders and Logan Grimnar (and only Logan Grimnar) treat Guardsmen as people, instead of as ablative wounds.

Stating that they're abhuman, introverted monsters in all but name, wouldn't be family friendly. So that's probably why it's not in the Codecies, and Space Marines are basically treated as really big, really strong humans...But otherwise human.
Not everyone reads the novels, and given Marines are such a core part of the setting there should be at least be hints towards it. And to be fair, there are: the Salamanders entry in the codex for example talks about how they have a much closer connection to humanity than others.



Similarly, the Warp gets described as an Ocean but really acts more like a Time-Wimey-Bubble in that you don't just sail through it, but you can go in it, over it and between it too - you can sail into the Eye of Terror one day, and sail out of the Maelstrom another, if you know the routes and tides.


Emphasising the ocean (but more so) analogy. The way I understand chaos and the warp is that each soul is a pebble thrown into a large body of water. In the Milky Way these pebbles are thrown in by the bucket load, creating eddies and currents that form a life of their own: the chaos gods. Those ripples don’t really spread across the vast gulf between galaxies, so any chaos gods or equivalent would be dependent on circumstances in that galaxy.

[Wraith]

Emphasising the ocean (but more so) analogy. The way I understand chaos and the warp is that each soul is a pebble thrown into a large body of water. In the Milky Way these pebbles are thrown in by the bucket load, creating eddies and currents that form a life of their own: the chaos gods. Those ripples don’t really spread across the vast gulf between galaxies, so any chaos gods or equivalent would be dependent on circumstances in that galaxy.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, because I don't think that enough has been written on the subject of travelling to other galaxies that either of us can definitively point to evidence. :smallsmile:

To my mind though; it's still part of the same ocean, and swimming/sailing from one part of it to another just takes time and motivation.
For extra-temporal beings that have existed since the dawn of sentient thought they certainly have time, and once all life in the Milky Way has been consumed then they'll have plenty of motivation to make the journey elsewhere, too - assuming they don't travel with the first colonists and be there from the beginning anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Not everyone reads the novels...

Which is pretty terrible, given that this is the fluff thread. Who wants to discuss what side Alpharius was on? And how does his dialogue during his duel with Rogal Dorn - and his defeat - influence what we know about him? Who remembers the scene with Alpharis, Erebus and Horus? What was Alpharius even doing? Were there Alpha Legion Loyalists? Or was it just Alpharius acting alone? What was even happening at the Pylons?

Remember Lorgar; Bearer of the Word? Let's talk about all the things that Kor Phaeron did wrong - or right - by bringing up Lorgar.
Could Magnus have even saved Lorgar if he had tried? Or was Lorgar already doomed no matter what Magnus did, because Kor Phaeron's hooks were so deep?

Why is Lion so...Lion?

Is anyone else mad that they released rules and models for Valerian and Aleya, except made them basically unplayable?

That, or GW's books are so poorly reviewed that even if you wanted to buy them, you shouldn't.
...But I digress.


there should be at least be hints towards it. And to be fair, there are

Emphasis mine. But also that's all you're gonna get. This is like the Devastation of Baal that you wanted to learn about. You get told that a thing happened:
a) The little information you have, is enough of a seed for you to start making your own threads up, or
b) The little information you have, is enough of a seed to get you interested to buy the book about the event, or
c) GW deliberately infuriates people by not telling them what they want to know.

Personally, I don't think 'C' would be incorrect. Half marks. See me after class.

[Adrastos42]

I am suddenly remembering my very silly idea for how to retcon Female Space Marines into the setting. Male Space Marines went "No girls allowed." Some arbitrary faction went "Screw you," and made Female Space Marines. The Male Space Marines then spent the next couple of millenium pretending they didn't exist.

This is all inspired by something I learned in a history class. Just with less power armor and intrusive surgery.

Semi unrelated but made me realise something I'm annoyed I didn't think of earlier - the canon reason for there only being male space marines is that the procedure is only biologically compatible with males. But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right? Or non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer, etc, of course.

[Grim Portent]

Semi unrelated but made me realise something I'm annoyed I didn't think of earlier - the canon reason for there only being male space marines is that the procedure is only biologically compatible with males. But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right? Or non-binary, genderfluid, genderqueer, etc, of course.

Broadly speaking space marines don't even really identify as male, they're mostly something closer to agendered, or at least indifferent. Asexual as well.

They superficially resemble men, much the way they superficially resemble humans in general, but they're significantly divorced from human gender dynamics and identities. They have more in common with mono-gendered species or sentient constructs than a species with a gender binary or spectrum.


Now from a meta perspective they are usually coded as male, but more because they draw on a lot of tropes traditionally associated with male characters and old male dominated military groups than because anything they actually do is particularly man-ish.

EDIT: Oh, and they also often come from societies with reasons to enforce a more traditional gender dynamic. Feral tribesmen, feudal knights, illiterate scav gangs and so on. As children they are probably encouraged/forced to comply with their assigned gender by their native communities, then when they become space marines the whole thing ceases to be relevant to them because of all the hypno-indoctrination.

[Cheesegear]

But sex isn't gender, so there's no canon reason you couldn't have trans women space marines, right?

That's the way a guy in my meta did it.


Broadly speaking space marines don't even really identify as male...

Well, yes they do. All the time.


Asexual as well.

Being chemically castrated will do that to you.
However Lukas the Trickster's canon is weird and doesn't really gel.

[LansXero]

{scrubbed}

[Grim Portent]

Well, yes they do. All the time.


There's a distinction to be drawn between using masculine pronouns and fashion styles and identifying as male the same way a mortal human does. Orkz tick many of the same boxes as marines in terms of how they self identify, but to call them men would be quite innacurate to their perspective.

In a few of the novels I've read the marines barely even seem to understand what mortal men and women are on a personal level, seeing both as kind of pointless little bobbleheads made of meat. The only ones I can think of that seemed to notice a meaningful difference was during the Horus Heresy.

[Adrastos42]

Yeah, that's an interesting question on whether space marines retain enough humanity to even have or care about gender as we think of it. You could definitely make an argument that as a transhuman, every space marine is trans, Male-to-Space Marine.

But with the discussion above about how much humanity marines retain, culture between chapters differs enough to have room for both, I feel. I think it was Cheesegear who mentioned Space Wolves and Salamanders upthread as retaining more humanity? I could see them keeping a human-ish concept of gender, while a less human chapter like, I don't know, which chapters go further from humanity, Exorcists maybe? Wouldn't care or even necessarily understand the question as applied to them.

LansXero- I'd like to not get into this except to politely note that I disagree with some of your premises. And I think you may have misunderstood the intention of "strong female character" (unless you're saying we've misunderstood) - it's not about them being physically strong and tough so much as being well-written 3d characters who can carry a narrative themselves.

[Lord Raziere]

LansXero- I'd like to not get into this except to politely note that I disagree with some of your premises. And I think you may have misunderstood the intention of "strong female character" (unless you're saying we've misunderstood) - it's not about them being physically strong and tough so much as being well-written 3d characters who can carry a narrative themselves.

Yeah. We'd probably have a better chance of doing that with like, a novel about Amberly Vail than female space marines.

But I wouldn't complain if they pulled it off with the Sisters of Battle somehow, if only for the challenge of portraying their very zealous and pure faith mindset and the humanity underneath it at the same time.

[Cheesegear]

it's not about them being physically strong and tough...

The problem is that when you're talking about Space Marine recruitment, and super-soldiers, it is. It literally is.
For that not to be the case, GW has to undo what a Space Marine, is, and what it takes to not only be selected for the trials, but to pass all the trials, too. 'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines. It's a percentile of a percentile of a percentile that make it.

In Sons of Dorn, the Imperial Fists have a quota of 2000 boys to pick up. On the entire planet. Of those 2000 - from the entire planet - three, become Scouts. The rest get Serf'd or Servitor'd or Die.

As I said, if you want to undo or retcon what a Space Marine is, do that. Because it's not so simple as "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...Unless you make it that way. Because in order to do that, you're ignoring what a Space Marine is, just so you can get to the bit you want...

Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do what you want.

[JNAProductions]

The problem is that when you're talking about Space Marine recruitment, and super-soldiers, it is. It literally is.
For that not to be the case, GW has to undo what a Space Marine, is, and what it takes to not only be selected for the trials, but to pass all the trials, too. 'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines.

As I said, if you want to undo or retcon what a Space Marine is, do that. Because it's not so simple as "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...Unless you make it that way. Because in order to do that, you're ignoring what a Space Marine is, just so you can get to the bit you want...

Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do what you want.

I think that what Adrastos is saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is not about 40k specifically. They're talking about general stories and narratives.

[Wraith]

You could definitely make an argument that as a transhuman, every space marine is trans, Male-to-Space Marine.

It's not even an argument - GW uses the word transhuman freely in codices and novels to describe Astartes, Custodes and Assassins after the philosophical school of transhumanism founded in the 1950's.

Note that in this case trans- is used in the context of "to surpass" rather "to transition", so it shouldn't have the same connotations as being transgender - Astartes are very much forcibly turned into something abnormal and their sexual preference/identity is a by-product of the procedure, rather than the expression.

[LeSwordfish]

'Strong and tough' is in the job description. Not just strong and tough, though. The most strongest, and the most toughest, on an entire planet, are the ones who get picked to be Space Marines. It's a percentile of a percentile of a percentile that make it.

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

[comicshorse]

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

Or for that matter that the strength referred to is physical strength and not strength of will

[Cheesegear]

This only works if it's an absolute immutable law of your setting that the strongest and toughest young people are exclusively male. And it needn't be.

It doesn't have to be, no. Didn't say that it was.
Follow up question, though. Are the 'people' in your setting, Human? If the answer is 'yes', you're going to run into some biological problems. Unless you handwave or address them directly.

If you handwave it away, you're gonna get questions about why you had to handwave it away.
If you address it directly...Well, most people don't. "Girls can be Space Marines, too." ...and then they are.

Similar to a show I've seen a few episodes of that had Freddie Highmore in it. Umm...There's no rule that says someone with TV!Autism couldn't be a doctor. But I'm saying that that guy, with that level of TV!Autism, couldn't have made it through University. Unless there's something that handwaves or addresses the fact that you don't just wake up one day and boop!, you're a doctor.

Same thing with House, M.D. and my Dad swearing up and down that he should've been fired at least several dozen times. Having actually seen most of House, I know that they do handwave it away almost every time.


Or for that matter that the strength referred to is physical strength and not strength of will

You make it sound like Space Marines don't recruit from both at the same time. That's why Librarians do a mindr*** on Neophytes. Not just to check for Taint, but to check them.
Not only are Space Marine Recruits star-level athletes and fighters, they show signs of psychopathy, they show high levels of intelligence, and they show force of will and determination. You have to have all of those things.

You take a psychopath,
The strongest, smartest and most adaptable psychopath of their generation, on their planet,
and you make them a weapon.
That's what a Space Marine, is.

Could it be a girl? ...I dunno. Maybe?
If so, how many of them would be girls?

[LeSwordfish]

Follow up question, though. Are the 'people' in your setting, Human? If the answer is 'yes', you're going to run into some biological problems. Unless you handwave or address them directly.

I feel like you're trying not to say "Men are just stronger than women" but that's pretty obviously what you're implying.

[LCP]

If you handwave it away, you're gonna get questions about why you had to handwave it away.

In 40K? The setting where high gravity turns humans into ogres and inbreeding turns them into hobbits? The setting with Space Orcs? The setting full of actual wizards? I don't think you need to take such questions very seriously. When you're watching an episode of Futurama about how Leela's parents are sewer mutants do you say "ah Matt Groening is going to have some Questions to Answer about the genetics at play here"?

[Cheesegear]

I feel like you're trying not to say "Men are just stronger than women" but that's pretty obviously what you're implying.

Luckily, that's not what I said or implied.
What I'm implying is that the most strongest of men, are stronger than the most strongest of women.


In 40K? The setting where high gravity turns humans into ogres and inbreeding turns them into hobbits? The setting with Space Orcs? The setting full of actual wizards? I don't think you need to take such questions very seriously.

Then don't take it seriously.
Nothing matters and no-one cares. Do whatever you want.

[LCP]

Then don't take it seriously. This thread is meaningless.

You know you can have a discussion of a work of fiction without treating that work of fiction as a world with an independent, objective existence, right?

Saying "this story is not an exactingly correct simulation of a possible world" only makes discussion meaningless if the only thing you're interested in discussing is whether statements about the story are Correct or Incorrect. Which is a hell of a boring discussion in the first place.

[Cheesegear]

Saying "this story is not an exactingly correct simulation of a possible world" only makes discussion meaningless if the only thing you're interested in discussing is whether statements about the story are Correct or Incorrect. Which is a hell of a boring discussion in the first place.

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring or changing that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring and changing those too."
Good talk. Do what you want, then.

[LeSwordfish]

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring those too."
Good talk.

It's kind of you to edit LCP's point into your own post for him.

[LCP]

Here's how the setting works.
"Well I'm ignoring or changing that part."
Okay. Well there are problems with doing that.
"Well I'm ignoring and changing those too."
Good talk. Do what you want, then.

These discussions are only happening in your head.

[Squark]

Luckily, that's not what I said or implied.
What I'm implying is that the most strongest of men, are stronger than the most strongest of women.

As adults, yes. But at the age initiates are taken in, the difference would be negligible. Actually, would the girls have an advantage from being in puberty longer?

[LeSwordfish]

These discussions are only happening in your head.

And who's viewpoint are we meant to be agreeing with anyway?


As adults, yes. But at the age initiates are taken in, the difference would be negligible. Actually, would the girls have an advantage from being in puberty longer?

In addition I can't help but feel that once you've developed a process to go from "eleven-year-old" to "nine foot walking tank" the muscle mass of the eleven-year-old is by-the-by anyway.

[Cheesegear]

And who's viewpoint are we meant to be agreeing with anyway?

Females should be able to be Space Marines. But you would have to change how Space Marines are recruited and/or get made for that to happen, inside the setting that's already established.
...Primaris Marines would've been good time to introduce them, since they changed a lot about Space Marines anyway, why not the sex of the recruits, too?
Yes. It would have been a good time to do that. Silly GW. Why didn't they do that?

We're all in agreement that females Should (capitalised) be Space Marines... I think.

The disagreement is how you want to make that happen. Since there's no canon for it...Do whatever you want. Or don't.

[LeSwordfish]

Females should be able to be Space Marines. But you would have to change how Space Marines are recruited and/or get made for that to happen, inside the setting that's already established.
...Primaris Marines would've been good time to introduce them, since they changed a lot about Space Marines anyway, why not the sex of the recruits, too?
Yes. It would have been a good time to do that. Silly GW. Why didn't they do that?

We're all in agreement that females Should (capitalised) be Space Marines... I think.

The disagreement is how you want to make that happen. Since there's no canon for it...Do whatever you want. Or don't.

I'm talking more generally. Like in the dialogue you made up, is the "heres why you're wrong" person the one we're meant to agree with?

[Grim Portent]

One option for having female space marines on a small scale would be if there was an abhuman strain that made it not only possible but sensible for the local chapter to recruit both.

Space Marines recruit from poplations that deviate from the human norm all the time, the Salamanders being the prime example, recruiting heavily from the abhumans of their homeworld. If there was a subsector somewhere filled with tribals who had evolved away from sexual dimorphism, or who had less of a range cap between male and female physical ability then it would be silly for a marine chapter recruiting from the world to dismiss the females that got into the highest percentage of physical performance.


On a similar note, Catachan. I don't think any canon chapters recruit from there for some reason, but given the fluff of the Catachan people I think it would be fair to say that their women are physically stronger than most non-Catachan men, though how they compare to their own men is a matter of conjecture. If a space marine rolled up to round up recruits, and it was physically possible for a female to become a space marine, it would be a place where some of the girls would probably qualify.

[Cheesegear]

I'm talking more generally. Like in the dialogue you made up, is the "heres why you're wrong" person the one we're meant to agree with?

1. Here's how the setting works. Stories that take place inside the setting, should make sense within the setting.
2. The setting is restrictive. So I changed the setting in order to make my story work, so now my story makes sense.

You're not meant to agree - or disagree - with either of them because both are correct.
You can have a preference for one or the other. But that's up to you. But neither of them is wrong, per se.

The problem, is what you're changing, is sex dynamics of fictional characters. Which is problematic because of the real world. Not because of anything actually happening in the setting itself.

I dunno. Maybe someone in this thread can enter one of them short story competitions and the theme is "Girl wants to be a Space Marine and gets told she can't." ...Then she becomes an Inquisitor, and does Biologus things with her Tech-Priest, meets Fabius Bile and learns secrets, tells Cawl - and his little AIs too! - to go **** himself. Then she designs a way for girls to become Space Marines for all the girls who come after her.

Guilliman poops himself as he realises that his recruitment pool just effectively doubled, and now he has upper hand on Abaddon.
At last The Milky Way is saved, ey Fall Out Boy?


One option for having female space marines on a small scale would be if there was an abhuman strain that made it not only possible but sensible for the local chapter to recruit both.

You can say whatever you want. You can, in fact, say "Cawl Fixed It." and you wouldn't even need an abhuman strain. Cawl invented Eliminators, which are better than Fire Dragons. Don't ask me how he did it. But the bastard did it. So he can do anything. Hell, you can even say "Fabius Bile did it, and as a Slaaneshi, he's laughing all the way to the bank, as Loyalists and Grognards **** and **** themselves with rage."


If there was a subsector somewhere filled with tribals who had evolved away from sexual dimorphism, or who had less of a range cap between male and female physical ability then it would be silly for a marine chapter recruiting from the world to dismiss the females that got into the highest percentage of physical performance.

I think the problem there actually is the same with Salamanders:
It's not actually intended. It's a mutation. It's abnormal.

Again, there are dozens and dozens of reasons of how you could justify female Space Marines:
Something, something Kor Phaeron.
Something, something Hector Rex.

It's incredibly easy to do. And if that's what you want to do, then do it.

[Eldan]

I mean, new setting elements are introduced all the time. Retcons too. When a new planet is mentioned, that planet has always existed. When an obscure ordo of the inquisition shows up, it has been around for thousands of years, most likely. A new titan shows up in a Forgeworld book? Been around since the Heresy.

I don't think female marines are a technical problem. Next edition, write in a few female special characters, say they were always there, done.

The question is how much the fanbase would be willing to swallow and how much of an internet trashfire GW wants.

[LansXero]

{scrubbed}

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened.

[Gareth3]

I'm thinking about creating a custom Space Marine chapter, and I'm looking for inspiration. Are there any particularly good fan-made chapters you've seen? I'm thinking more of the backstory and special characters.

[Adrastos42]

I can't think of any specifics immediately, but I bet the bolter and chainsword forums will have plenty of inspiration available if you look around. I haven't been on there much in a while, but here's their fanmade chapter lore forum (I think) as a starter: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/16-liber-astartes/

[Wraith]

Do you have any sort of theme or starting point in mind? Even something simple like what colour heraldry they will wear or which Legion they might be descended from? The problem with Space Marine Chapters is that there's a thousand of 'em, all different, so we could throw pretty much anything at you. :smalltongue:

Personally, I like the "redeemed Heretic Legions" founding for Chapters - a company, or even squad, of Heresy-era Traitors turned their back on their Fallen Primarch and did something heroic to prove that they could be trusted by the Imperium, enough that they were allowed to become a Chapter of their own.

The Silver Skulls (Iron Warriors), Red Scorpions (Emperor's Children), Blood Ravens (Thousand Sons) and a few others - they all have heroic/tragic backstories and a super-secret secret that they can't let anyone find out about. They're pretty cool.

[Gareth3]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you. The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

[Forum Explorer]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you. The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.

[Renegade Paladin]

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.

If you refer to the Brazen Drakes, their Primaris reinforcements didn't fall to Chaos; they were slaughtered by the Custodes come to deliver them before they had the chance.

[Gareth3]

One of the psychic awakenings has a Primaris detachment fall to Chaos, so that claim is proven false.
Yeah, the claim is pretty dubious if the marines still have human minds. On the other hand, having a whole chapter based on the assumption that Primaris marines can't fall to Chaos, and having that assumption be wrong, is an even better backstory.

[Forum Explorer]

If you refer to the Brazen Drakes, their Primaris reinforcements didn't fall to Chaos; they were slaughtered by the Custodes come to deliver them before they had the chance.

Eh, they would've fallen to Chaos if they got a chance. It's a rare Renegade Marine who can resist falling to Chaos, if only for survivals sake when the Imperium is gunning after you. Particularly an entire detachment's worth who can't exactly blend in.


Yeah, the claim is pretty dubious if the marines still have human minds. On the other hand, having a whole chapter based on the assumption that Primaris marines can't fall to Chaos, and having that assumption be wrong, is an even better backstory.

I agree to that. It would make for a pretty cool story.

[thethird]

Blood Ravens (Thousand Sons)

Haven't been playing much attention to the horus heresy and stuff. But has there been any development in that front lately? I remember reading at some point arguments for the blood ravens being descendants of loyalist word bearers.


Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos. So a chapter is formed that takes advantage of that, making an anti-Chaos force in a different way to the Grey Knights. Maybe they don't have psykers, use Blanks in important positions, use Tau warp technology, or what have you.

Sounds like exorcists with extra tech heresy, I would look at them and see if you want to incorporate some of their trappings into their chapter. The only cases of space marines using alien tech that come to mind though are in the deathwatch, so yeah you probably want to fluff something new there.


The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

Check the Imperius Reavers (their color scheme is a pain in the ass though). Veterans of the Tyrannic wars and with a Genestealer cult in their home planet (although that's been erradicated). While I wouldn't use them outright (again that color scheme) they are there.

[Wraith]

Haven't been playing much attention to the horus heresy and stuff. But has there been any development in that front lately? I remember reading at some point arguments for the blood ravens being descendants of loyalist word bearers.

Not yet. The Second Founding happens a year or two after Horus' death, and at the moment the Heresy books are just about to the point where the Imperial Palace is being assaulted directly - we're a couple (?) of books away from Sanguinius' famous rematch with Ka'Bandha for example, which as far as I know is the last important thing to happen before the Emperor assaults the Vengeful Spirit.

For now, "the Blood Ravens are Loyalist descendants of a Traitor Legion" is still just rumour and coincidence. A plausible one, given what we know for certain about Chapters like the Silver Skulls, but no one has yet published the words "Yes, it is true" so there's still room to give it a twist somewhere, if they ever wanted to.

As for them being Word Bearers; that could be one of the twists that could happen. Everyone assumes they're Thousand Sons because they're all Psykers rather than Sorcerers, and because they wear the same colours on their armour as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. If that turns out to be a double-bluff and they're really from another Legion... Could be interesting, but might annoy some of the pro-Thousand Sons' fanbase who want 'their Guys' to still be around. :smallsmile:

[Cheesegear]

Thanks for the answers. I have a couple of ideas. One comes from the claim that Primaris marines can't be corrupted by Chaos.

The claim was effectively made for two reasons:

1. Cawl's Awakened, were essentially fresh out of the womb. They couldn't be corrupted by Chaos because they had no concept of what Chaos was. This was a problem in the early stages, because Cawl's Awakened had no concept of who or why they were fighting, and they didn't understand the history behind The Long War. This was one of the many rifts between Firstborn and the Awakened "What's a Primarch, and why should I give a ****? Don't gun go pew pew and Chainsowrd go burrr?" But this goes away once Chapters started making their own Primaris Marines. Cawl has nothing to do with current Primaris Marines, and there's no excuse for them not to know about The Long War. Welcome to 9th Ed., it's not 8th Ed. anymore.

2. Chaos can't have nice things. "Those are some really cool 2-Wound Troops models, and 3-Wound Elites models you've got there, can we get those, too?" ...No. You get Death Guard, that's enough for Chaos. "But what if I don't play Death Guard in 8th Ed.?" ...Shut up. No Primaris Marines. Primaris Marines can't be corrupted by Chaos, because Chaos doesn't have Primaris Marines. That's some pretty solid logic right there. Clearly, if Primaris Marines could be corrupted by Chaos, then Chaos would have them. You can't argue with that.


The other is a chapter that recruits from a world that defeated a Genestealer cult, and has advantages when fighting Tyranids.

The problem is that that 'advantage' should go away, after a generation or two. Same as the Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veterans. Once the 'war' is over, the skills are no longer needed, and, ultimately lost over time, because the Veterans who fought in the War die out and don't pass on their knowledge because there's no need to.

What you would really have to do, is make a Crusade Chapter that explicitly hunts down and roots out Genestealer infestations in front of - and left behind by - Hive Fleet tendrils. That way their knowledge-base remains current and they're always overcoming the adaptations made by the Tyranids, doing their best to stay ahead of the Hive Fleet, and predicting future evolutions. A Chapter like this would have strong ties to both the Deathwatch and Imperial Guard. Operating as the vanguard of Imperial forces, picking up information and battle tactics early, and disseminating that information and tactics among Imperial forces as quickly as possible (e.g; Like the Mentors Chapter. You don't even need to look them up. Just ask "What does 'Mentors' mean?" and you'll get your answer for what they're about.).

[Kris Strife]

Check the Imperius Reavers (their color scheme is a pain in the ass though). Veterans of the Tyrannic wars and with a Genestealer cult in their home planet (although that's been erradicated). While I wouldn't use them outright (again that color scheme) they are there.

I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrants
https://i.redd.it/98nujjltidx41.jpg

[thethird]

As for them being Word Bearers; that could be one of the twists that could happen. Everyone assumes they're Thousand Sons because they're all Psykers rather than Sorcerers, and because they wear the same colours on their armour as pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. If that turns out to be a double-bluff and they're really from another Legion... Could be interesting, but might annoy some of the pro-Thousand Sons' fanbase who want 'their Guys' to still be around. :smallsmile:

They share the colour scheme with post istvaan word bearers, and for what is worth they are from sector Aurelia and Cyrene is one of their main recruiting worlds. While it is possible to forget why Aurelia or Cyrene are significant names in chapter history it is pretty difficult to forget those names. If memory serves that was the main argument to consider Word Bearers loyalist, and hey I am sure Word Bearers also had Psykers.


I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrants
https://i.redd.it/98nujjltidx41.jpg

I am a bad painter. I haven't really tried to paint the Reavers, it looks scary to me though, with the whole line down the middle and how I would normally paint red over white and black over black so I don't know how I would prime that. As for the Celebrants... that seems time consuming, I would probably paint each armor piece in a different shade but I don't need to make a vertical line across the mini's chest (which is the scary part to me). Totally agreed on the checkerboard, I really like the Lamenters from a fluff perspective but I don't even dare to try to paint one.

For what is worth I really like deathwatch as a way to try different things with colors, while maintaining cohesion in black and silver (with looks great) and letting you do some conversions and unusual models. And I don't think i could do a checkerboard shoulderpad even then.

[Wraith]

They share the colour scheme with post istvaan word bearers, and for what is worth they are from sector Aurelia and Cyrene is one of their main recruiting worlds. While it is possible to forget why Aurelia or Cyrene are significant names in chapter history it is pretty difficult to forget those names. If memory serves that was the main argument to consider Word Bearers loyalist, and hey I am sure Word Bearers also had Psykers.

I can't say that you're definitely wrong, because that's the whole point of there being a mystery. There is, however, a much longer list of reasons as to why they're probably Thousand Sons, starting with them having red armour as opposed to scarlet (as did Word Bearers), that their Chapter logo is reminiscent of the TS Corvidae cult, that their motto of "Knowledge is Power" is a quote from a famous Thousand Son called Revuel Arvida, and that Ahriman seems to recognise them and know much more about them and their origins than he otherwise should.

Bunch of stuff on Lexicanum. (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens#Possible_Thousand_Sons_connections) I'm sure it could be swerved to be a bluff if someone wanted it to, but the hints suggest that if their founding is ever fully revealed (which it may never be) then *for now* they're probably Thousand Sons.

[Cheesegear]

There is, however, a much longer list of reasons as to why they're probably Thousand Sons, starting with them having red armour as opposed to scarlet...

Starting with the fact that Blood Ravens have the same colours as Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. Revuel is explicitly a Loyalist, and refuses to change the colours on his armour. Even when the White Scars offer to take him into their Legion for reals. Surely anyone aligned with Arvida would share his colours...
(The Path of Heaven is an excellent read, and one of the few Heresy novels - out of the 54, **** - that I might actually recommend...At least with Discworld's 41, I can actually recommend the majority of them...But that's 'cause Discworld was written by one man with a cohesive vision. :smallsigh:)

The fact that Revuel Arvida's entire storyline is an allusion to the creation of Blood Ravens (however, as we've established in this thread, no-one here reads the novels). Instead, Arvida goes on to become Janus, original Grand Master of the Grey Knights through some storyline nonsense where Dawn of War III tanked so bad, and Relic went out of business and so it feels like the storyline to the development on Blood Ravens was literally taken into a basement and shot in the head by Malcador.


I'm sure it could be swerved to be a bluff if someone wanted it to, but the hints suggest that if their founding is ever fully revealed (which it may never be) then *for now* they're probably Thousand Sons.

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

[thethird]

For what is worth I am personally for Blood Ravens being Thousand Sons myself. I was just mentioning the other theory.


Arvida goes on to become Janus, original Grand Master of the Grey Knights through some storyline nonsense where Dawn of War III tanked so bad, and Relic went out of business and so it feels like the storyline to the development on Blood Ravens was literally taken into a basement and shot in the head by Malcador.

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

That's what I remember there being a perfect chance to go with hey, loyalist Thousand Sons, but nope, Grey Knights. Was just wondering if there had been any development.

At least they aren't the Storm Wardens...

[Cheesegear]

That's what I remember there being a perfect chance to go with hey, loyalist Thousand Sons, but nope, Grey Knights. Was just wondering if there had been any development.

Had Dawn of War III been successful, it probably would have been Blood Ravens.
Since DoW3 sucked, GW will sweep something that they potentially don't own under the rug.


At least they aren't the Storm Wardens...

Again, it's easier to just sweep something that GW potentially doesn't own, under the rug.

[LansXero]

it looks scary to me though, with the whole line down the middle and how I would normally paint red over white and black over black so I don't know how I would prime that.

Masking. If anything, its better that it is one straight line, as tape can do that no problem.

[Wraith]

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons. However, at this stage, Blood Ravens are effectively dead canon, and I don't expect anything to actually be written regarding them ever again.

And yet Gabriel Angelos made it into the 9e Imperial Armour Compendium, so he avoided being Legacy'd by Forgeworld last year, AND Blood Ravens got White Dwarf rules the year before right in the middle of 8e - 2 years after DoW3 came out.

GW might not know what they're going to do with them, but it feels like they might do SOMETHING at SOME POINT. MAYBE. :smalltongue:

[LansXero]

Those rules were bland, uninspired trash. As for Angelos, well, guess they still have some units around to sell or they're waiting for the mold to break.

[LeSwordfish]

Seems unlikely they're going to just vanish - they've got a lot of fans and got updated rules only a couple of years ago.

[Lord Torath]

I was expecting something a bit more unusual than a 'half one color, half another' unless red/black is a difficult color scheme to do that with. I thought you were discussing a chapter with a checkerboard pattern or something like the Celebrantshttps://i.redd.it/98nujjltidx41.jpgHere's chaplain I painted (free hand) half-and-half to try to decide which version (light or dark) I liked best:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/warhammerhouse/2057775273/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/warhammerhouse/2057775285/

[Fyraltari]

It's almost definitely Thousand Sons.

Shouldn't they be plagued by rampant mutations/have Rubric Marines, then? I mean all the evidence points towards them, but I don't think that has ever been explained away.

[hamishspence]

1. Cawl's Awakened, were essentially fresh out of the womb. They couldn't be corrupted by Chaos because they had no concept of what Chaos was.

Aren't some of them characterised as actually having fought in the Scouring?

[Wraith]

Shouldn't they be plagued by rampant mutations/have Rubric Marines, then? I mean all the evidence points towards them, but I don't think that has ever been explained away.

I think the reason is supposed to be that the Blood Ravens were founded using tithed geneseed which had been sent to Mars, tested, purified and kept on ice as is standard practice for Legions pre-Heresy and Chapters nowadays, rather than having living Loyalist Thousand Sons change their names and pick up a new logo.

It's a bit of a handwave - being kept in a jar in a freezer doesn't really seem like it should be enough to keep Tzeentch's influence away from anything that he has put his mark upon - but that seems to be what GW are going with. The geneseed wasn't *in* a Space Marine at the moment that Prospero was invaded and the Fleshchange was accelerated, and it hasn't yet occurred to Tzeentch to throw the switch for a second time and ruin the Chapter, so they're fine.

That's an open plot-hook, I guess. If the Blood Ravens *are* Thousand Sons successors, then in theory they could be Spawn'd at any moment. Why hasn't it happened yet? ...JUST AS PLANNED.


Aren't some of them characterised as actually having fought in the Scouring?

One of them might have done - Alpha Primaus was the first Primaris Space Marine, though actually a failed attempt to recreate a Primarch. I'm not sure when he was first created as the stories in which he features take place in M42, but since he was the prototype on which other Primaris Marines were based and they were commissioned during the Scouring, it's plausible that he was around in M31 and met Guilliman who subsequently requested more like him.

The Awoken Primaris - those created by Cawl millennia ago and then put into the fridge - might have been human during the Scouring but whether or not they were active Primaris? That gets messy, as it implies that Cawl had unlocked the mysteries of the geneseed and was creating new supersoldiers within a couple of years of the Siege of Terra, which is... unlikely. Then again, the Scouring went on for just over a century so maybe a few of them might have been ready to go by the time of Guilliman's mortal wounding in M31.121?

[LeSwordfish]

I just finished Saturnine, and I think Dorn might be my favourite Primarch now. It's nice to feel like we're actually getting to the bits of the Siege we've heard about.

Although...
So, hold up. Is Leetu (LE-2) one of the missing primarchs?

[Wraith]

Although...
So, hold up. Is Leetu (LE-2) one of the missing primarchs?

No.

He's one of - if not the first - successful Space Marine Legionaries. He was kind of a prototype made from the Emperor's genestock that helped create the technique for making the Primarchs, and when they disappeared the Emperor had to fall back on an earlier, simpler design as a replacement.

[hamishspence]

The Awoken Primaris - those created by Cawl millennia ago and then put into the fridge - might have been human during the Scouring but whether or not they were active Primaris? That gets messy, as it implies that Cawl had unlocked the mysteries of the geneseed and was creating new supersoldiers within a couple of years of the Siege of Terra, which is... unlikely. Then again, the Scouring went on for just over a century so maybe a few of them might have been ready to go by the time of Guilliman's mortal wounding in M31.121?

Or they're bog-standard Marines and Cawl took them past the "Rubicon Primaris" - and characters like Calgar only think they're among the first to undergo it.

Codex Space Marines 8e v1,

p21 (Crimson Fists bit):

"For his raw material Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself."

p30 (Ultramarines successors)

"One of the first founded Primaris Marine Chapters, the Fulminators were created in M31, even as the last battles of the Scouring were being fought. The aspirants selected were the best recruits heading into the Terran Guard, and they have been in stasis for nearly 8,000 years."

[Thragka]

On the holdover-Warhammer-Fantasy subtopic: Cathay confirmed for Total War: Warhammer III! Colour me surprised. I thought for sure Ogre Kingdoms would be a core race, with Chaos Dwarves as a less likely additional possibility.

[LansXero]

On the holdover-Warhammer-Fantasy subtopic: Cathay confirmed for Total War: Warhammer III! Colour me surprised. I thought for sure Ogre Kingdoms would be a core race, with Chaos Dwarves as a less likely additional possibility.

That sounds positively DLC-ish

[Thragka]

That sounds positively DLC-ish

Yeah, I'm certainly not ruling them out – just surprised, since OK was an 8th ed. WFB army book, while Cathay never had an official release (not even approaching semi-official White Dwarf rulesets like Kislev and Vampire Coast, iirc).

[Eldan]

Eh. Warhammer II introduced four new races originally, Skaven, High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen.

This can introduce Ogres and Daemons which are main game armies, and Kislev and Chaos Dwarves who were second fiddles who occasionally got models or army lists in secondary sources and Cathay, which will allow them to go pretty wild as there's no sources. I mean, that's enough to make a game with. And Kislev is getting a new model range, so that's good timing.

And I don't remember the exact trailer for WHII, but I know they only announced Skaven pretty late.

[LeSwordfish]

I've heard the theory that Cathay is intended to appeal to an audience in China - apparently TW: Three Kingdoms was a hit over there.

[Eldan]

If it is, it's working. Friends who speak the language tell me that Chinese gaming channels are all over it.

[Corvus]

Starting races are the four chaos gods as seperate factions, Kislev and Cathay. No word on cdwarves or ogres but one of them will have to be the pre-order bonus otherwise the entire darklands, the centre of the map is going to be filled with placeholders.

Kislev seeing the light of day finally is great. The trailer shows how epically badass they are.

[Sinewmire]

I would guess that Ogre Kingdoms and Chaos Dwarves will be DLC.
Hopefully they'll rework Warriors of Chaos and Beastmen, they sorely need it, and Chaos does seem to be a theme of this game.

[Eldan]

Starting races are the four chaos gods as seperate factions, Kislev and Cathay. No word on cdwarves or ogres but one of them will have to be the pre-order bonus otherwise the entire darklands, the centre of the map is going to be filled with placeholders.

Kislev seeing the light of day finally is great. The trailer shows how epically badass they are.

I mean, if your only problem is a gap in the map, you can fill it with orcs and vampires for the badlands. Strigoi really should be a thing at some point.

[Voidhawk]

Old World map. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/c/c7/Warhammer_olde_world_map.jpg/) Making Cathay the centre of this game doesn't come as a surprise: the previous 2 have covered everything west of the World Spine mountains, and just leaves the relatively unknown far east to fill in for the complete set. That means Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms, Cathay, Nippon (not!japan), Ind (not!india) and The Hinterlands of Khuresh (not!south-east-asia).

Kislev on the other hand is rather out of left-field. While possessing a decent amount of fluff, they've always existed primarily to just be "that place that Chaos burns down to show the situation is serious". They're relatively small (certainly compared to literal Russia), and miles away from the big players of the East.

Personally, I'm here for Chaos Dwarves. They've always had a great aesthetic (daemon-industrial-Babylon) and a much deeper well of fluff than most people know about. Give me the ability to build lines for running daemon-trains across the Dark Lands and I'll be a happy Dawi-Zharr.

[Misery Esquire]

Old World map. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammerfb/images/c/c7/Warhammer_olde_world_map.jpg/) Making Cathay the centre of this game doesn't come as a surprise: the previous 2 have covered everything west of the World Spine mountains, and just leaves the relatively unknown far east to fill in for the complete set. That means Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms, Cathay, Nippon (not!japan), Ind (not!india) and The Hinterlands of Khuresh (not!south-east-asia).

Kislev on the other hand is rather out of left-field. While possessing a decent amount of fluff, they've always existed primarily to just be "that place that Chaos burns down to show the situation is serious". They're relatively small (certainly compared to literal Russia), and miles away from the big players of the East.

Personally, I'm here for Chaos Dwarves. They've always had a great aesthetic (daemon-industrial-Babylon) and a much deeper well of fluff than most people know about. Give me the ability to build lines for running daemon-trains across the Dark Lands and I'll be a happy Dawi-Zharr.

I don't know, Ogre Kingdoms were a main faction and Kislev at least had an army book at one point. And they're still missing Dogs of War and Araby (and Chaos Dwarves, as you already noted) who had actual books available, and Amazons who had White Dwarf supplements and units. That's just off the top of my head, there's (hopefully, I dropped out of playing after 6e) more White Dwarf armies out there for the Old/New World region already on-map.

Cathay is the one from out of nowhere Warhammer-internally. Speckled lore about a Dragon-Emperor, terracotta soldiers, black powder from the Nagash backstory, and Tzeentch worship. And having a Great Wall of China Bastion that got broken by Dawi Zharr and then nationally completely rolled by Grimgor in an End Times footnote. Wow. Externally, it's an obvious move because "please give more China dollar" coming into play with the success of TW: Three Kingdoms in that region.

(To be clear, I am excited for TWWT. :smalltongue: )

[Eldan]

I mean, I don't think you're missing anything. White Dwarf was pretty much squatted as a thing with actual material in it in 7th/8th edition, so they didn't add much there. There were some more chaos dwarf models and that's about it. Cathay never had much.

(I also need to be careful about not mixing up Old World lore with all the Ninth Age lore I've been writing lately.)

[Fyraltari]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

[Grim Portent]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

[LCP]

From the look of everything that's come so far, I don't think they're making Cathay the centre - I think they're making the Chaos Wastes the centre, and both Kislev and Cathay border on them.

[Eldan]

Isn't there supposed to be a Mongol-like hobgoblin empire in the area as well?

Yes. And several quite interesting chaos tribes. Like Tzeentch-worshipping pseudo-Mongols.

[Eldan]

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

Except that the chaos dwarves enslave hobgoblins.

[comicshorse]

Apparently there is a huge hobgoblin khanate in the Eastern Steppes, north of Cathay and the Ogre Kingdoms, whih fights against the various chaos tribes in the area and raids Cathayan caravans. It has barely any fluff, but it would potentially be a good ally for the Chaos Dwarves faction, being reasonably close to one another and not having many other factions willing to work with them.

Yep there's a section in 'Something Rotten In Kislev' where you get to join up with an army of theirs for a bit

[Grim Portent]

Except that the chaos dwarves enslave hobgoblins.

The chaos dwarves enslave everybody, the hobgoblins get the best deal out of it of any of the slave races because they chose to side with the chaos dwarves over the rest of the greenskin race during the mass slave rebellion lead by the early black orcs. There's literally no one else with anything even approaching a positive relationship with hobgoblins as a people, other greenskins kill them on sight and ogres see them as food. Of the three factions in the setting that include greenskins, only one actually works with hobgoblins.

As I understand it, big groups of hobgoblins have something resembling autonomy in the chaos dwarf lands. They get to roam around on their wolves, patrolling, raiding each other and non-Dawi-Zharr and serving as auxiliaries in the chaos dwarf armies. They're slaves, but they're high ranking slaves who nominally chose to be slaves in exchange for preferential treatment.

[Voidhawk]

Chaos Dwarves are Equal Opportunity *******s. They'll happily trade with any faction they meet, with the exception of other dwarves (who they see as traitors and betrayers). Of course, you have to have something they want that they can't just take: regular supplies of slaves are best of course.

[Corvus]

Reading through what lore there is on Cathay and they are going to have to retcon a lot of it aren't they?

Making Cathay be on the side of order is a bit of a stretch, and if they are after that sweet Chinese moolah, which would appear to be the reason they made Cathay a core race over developed ones like ogres and chaos dwarves, they are going to have to get approved first and that might be a struggle given previous lore.

Not only have they had dealings with the skaven but one emperor seems to have had a skaven advisor. Then there are the eunuch vampires who are well and truely embedded into the empire's bureaucracy. And also the fact that there are tzeentch worshipers who do so openly and are permitted to do so by the state, and are part of the upper echelons of the empire as well.

I cant see that stuff surviving.

[Wraith]

I have to say, that does sound like a really interesting idea of the lore of an Old World Faction.

An Empire that prides itself on being cosmopolitan - they allow 'religious freedom', which just means that Chaos cults have a solid foothold, but haven't yet sprung their open rebellion. They tolerate non-human and even undead advisors under the auspice of 'all people are welcome provided they serve', even though on a direct level it just means that both are infiltrating the hierarchy with their thralls and their assassins...

Everyone else in the Old World takes one look and realises immediately that the whole thing is doomed to inevitable and incredibly violent failure, even the skaven who are actively engineering its downfall and are just there to get what riches they can before the explosions begin... It just hasn't happened *yet* because all of the competing forces all think they're the only one who is on to a good thing and are waiting for the right moment.....

But for now: Hey look! Vampire and Humans and Skaven all working together for the Greater Good and prospering! Glory to the Dragon-Emperor and his infinite wisdom! :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Not only have they had dealings with the skaven but one emperor seems to have had a skaven advisor. Then there are the eunuch vampires who are well and truely embedded into the empire's bureaucracy. And also the fact that there are tzeentch worshipers who do so openly and are permitted to do so by the state, and are part of the upper echelons of the empire as well.
.

Eeeeeh. You can probably retcon the Tzeentch worshippers to be state-sponsored wizards who have gone through a few rounds of travellers exageratting and misunderstanding. The rest... is kind of fine?
t
Vampires have never been on the side of chaos, one of the stated intentions of Vlad trying to become Emperor was fighting Chaos, for example. The Skaven, for the most part, are only loosely related to chaos. Outside of the end times, at least. They have their own goals.

[Fyraltari]

Even then, the beginning of a Cathay campaign could consist of you purging the compromised elements of the empire.

[Mystic Muse]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

[Cheesegear]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malice_(Chaos_God)). However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

[Mystic Muse]

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malice_(Chaos_God)). However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

Fair on not beong interested in the aeldari. I feel the same way about Orks.

Was just curious about the Chaos God thing because I enjoy pondering what-ifs for the setting sometimes.

Thanks for the prompt answer. :smallsmile:

[Wraith]

I assume the fluff is pretty vague on what would have to happen to make another Chaos God?

It would take 65million-and-30-thousand years of an inherently psychic, galaxy-spanning species descending into unprecedented hedonism. You may have heard about it, a few titbits have been released over the years :smalltongue:

At least, that's how it happened the first time, and it has been recently suggested that it could be done in as little as 10,000, or even 6,000 years.

Firstly is the Emperor. Cheesegear already outlined that - put an immensely powerful psyker on a pedestal, get a few trillion humans to worship him for 100 millennia and then sever his link to the mortal world then *maybe* he will reach apotheosis? Probably? Who knows, probably best not to risk it.

It's been vaguely implied that this is happening to the Orks - they're inherently psychic and if enough of them get together then they can pool their belief (the Power of the Waaagh!) into something and make it happen for real. Usually this is for low-level stuff like keeping vehicles working beyond all sensible damage because the Mek Boy has smacked it with a hammer and so they believe it's 'fixed', but now many of them are starting to recognise Ghazghull Thraka as the Prophet and/or living embodiment of Gorkamorka, so if enough of them start to believe it hard enough then it may yet come true. Ghazghull has only been famous for about 160 years in-universe at this point though, so it's either going to be a HUGELY accelerated process or he's just getting started.

The other is the Tau. The Fourth Sphere expansionists - according to Phil Kelly - have been seeing a vaguely Tau-shaped entity appear before them when they use their new wormhole-Spaceship-drives, which they have identified as an embodiment of the Greater Good, a concept established approximately 6,000 years or so ago. Apparently it draws strength from every new species 'converted' to join the Tau, which is why it appears as an amalgamation of different creatures - four arms, five-fingers on it's hands, a smoothed-though-recognisable Tau face, etc.

There are a great, great many problems with this theory, least of all that the Tau aren't in any way psychic so how they have created a God is unknown. Likely it's probably just Tzeentch being a jerk and pretending to be something else for its own reasons, but who knows?

[Eldan]

A particular emotion has to be felt so strongly that it births a new kind of warp entity.
Once upon a time, that emotion was Terror (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malice_(Chaos_God)). However, given that the setting at the time was trying to be more Imperium vs. Chaos, that was BALEETED, as there are already Tyranids - and possibly Orks - who already have the 'Fight Everyone', schtick already down. Additionally, talking about Terror in the early 2000s wasn't something you really wanted to do, and so Malice/Malal/Malar was dropped as a storyline 20-odd years ago.

Of course there's the idea the if you shank The Emperor from his mortal form, he dusts and becomes the God of Hope, or something. If people believe in Him, strongly enough, then Lorgar is/was right.

However, more recently the Aeldari birthed Ynnead. Or, Yneead will be birthed when the Infinity Circuit is complete and enough (all?) Aeldari Are One? But I'm not clear on Ynnari since I don't really have an interest in Aeldari Factions so I don't bother looking.

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

[Gwynchan'rGwyll]

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

We can't have creative fluff in our 40k, that's AoS business! :smallsigh:

[Forum Explorer]

One interesthing thing about that is that a few concept drawings of Malal daemons showed them kind a vermin-like. And pretty soon after, the Skaven came out. Who have a fifth chaos god.

As for Ynnead, he was born, but in the most boring way possible. They did nothing with it. For a god of death and vengeance, it's super tame and almost all its servants seem to be perfectly normal eldar. Instead of insane wraith constructs born from the infinity circuits or the trapped souls freed as some kind of spirit host.

He wasn't born. He was like, halfborn if that makes any sense. Eldrad performed a ritual to try and have Ynnead be born early. The Deathwatch interefered with it and prevented Ynnead from being fully born, but he still connected to a few people, notably Yvraine. Yvraine was told by Ynnead of a way to finish the job, activate 5 Croneswords, ancient relics that are apparently tied to the old Eldar God of Death. They found 4 and discovered that the last is currently within Slaanash's palace. So it's basically out of reach.

Instead they are trying the old fashioned way, get everyone worshipping Ynnead in life and are trying to unify the Eldar at the same time. In the process they found the main shard of Khaine, had the opportunity to empower Khaine to a real threat, but refused it and instead now have someone who can basically transform into an Avatar of Khaine.


Regardless of all that, I do agree that the Ynnarri need some more models. They should be a faction in their own right, not just a hijacking of Craftworlds, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins.

[Gareth3]

How much does the Imperium know about the history of the Necrons? I ask because there was a mention in the Inquisitor game about trying to make a new immortal body for the Emperor. We think of the Necrons when we read that, but do Imperials know that they used to be biological creatures?

[Cheesegear]

I ask because there was a mention in the Inquisitor game about trying to make a new immortal body for the Emperor. We think of the Necrons when we read that...

Unless the game explicitly mentions Necrons, no we don't.

We think of Aeldari, 'cause the Inquisition and/or AdMech reached out to them - specifically Drukharii - in the Webway with:
a) How do you do Spirit Stone...Stuff. Can you fix the Golden Throne, please? If not,
b) Can you figure out how to transfer the Emperor's consciousness to a Construct? If not,
c) Can you clone the Emperor?
Any of those would be real handy. Plzkthx.

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.
Magnus and Morty, Guilliman and Lion.

[hamishspence]

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.Only the Emperor, the Watchers in the Dark, and maybe Luther know that The Lion is hidden away in The Rock. Even the Dark Angels have no idea what happened to his body.

[LeSwordfish]

Only the Emperor, the Watchers in the Dark, and maybe Luther know that The Lion is hidden away in The Rock. Even the Dark Angels have no idea what happened to his body.

Typical, eh, you search for ages for something and it's right under your nose the whole time.

[Forum Explorer]

Unless the game explicitly mentions Necrons, no we don't.

We think of Aeldari, 'cause the Inquisition and/or AdMech reached out to them - specifically Drukharii - in the Webway with:
a) How do you do Spirit Stone...Stuff. Can you fix the Golden Throne, please? If not,
b) Can you figure out how to transfer the Emperor's consciousness to a Construct? If not,
c) Can you clone the Emperor?
Any of those would be real handy. Plzkthx.

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

I'm still confused as to why with the release of the Dark Angels' book, there wasn't a storyline where Guilliman makes Yvraine do the thing on Lion, as well, and thus, we get Lion on the board, too.
Magnus and Morty, Guilliman and Lion.

From what I heard the Lion is already healed, they just need to remove the stasis. Which they haven't done for some reason.

[hamishspence]

Typical, eh, you search for ages for something and it's right under your nose the whole time.
Interestingly, none of the early DA codices state this outright - only having Luther make the claim that the Watchers took his body away and that eventually he will return to forgive Luther.

The first book that treats his presence on the Rock as fact, is not a codex but a novel - the 1999 novel Eye of Terror:

p286

There are secrets known not even to the Inner Circle of the Fallen Angels, and one final secret is known only to the God-Emperor himself. Deep, deep within the Rock, at the centre of what was once the planet Caliban, lies a sealed, unreachable chamber. Here lies sleeping the Chapter Primarch, carried away by the Watchers in the Dark on that terrible day when the Dark Angels Chapter tore itself apart.

Odd that it said "Inner Circle of the Fallen Angels" - but the basic point is there - Jonson is on the Rock, in that chamber, and only the Emperor knows this. It implies even the Watchers don't know - perhaps the ones who put him there are dead of old age and didn't pass on the secret.

[noob]

From what I heard the Lion is already healed, they just need to remove the stasis. Which they haven't done for some reason.

They have not done it yet because they do not think they would get enough sales from the new model to compensate the cost of designing and producing it?

[Platinius]

Here a training video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k78H5aL7Bz8) for Imperial Guard Officers.^^

[Wraith]

Basically, Yvraine made Guilliman Walk.
They have the Imperium's attention.
Can you do it with the Emperor?

The problem is that those in the Imperium who are inclined to ask for xenos help in fixing the Emperor, also don't know enough about xenos to make a sensible request. This is more or less the plot of The Vaults of Terra: The Carrion Throne by Chris Wraight.

A combined group of Mechanicus and High Lords decide to smuggle an Aeldari technomage in order to have a look at the ailing Golden Throne and see if they can get it fixed, but because they're part of the Imperium and thus incapable of not doing things in the absolute worst way possible they try to bring in a Drukharii Haemonculi. It inevitably gets loose, starts up a Cult of mutants, and then gets within sight of the Golden Throne before it's finally brought down by Inquisitor Crowl.

So there are people in the Imperium who think that the Aeldari can fix the Emperor, or at least the Throne; these people are probably correct, but unfortunately they are also morons who get purged by the Custodes.


Interestingly, none of the DA codices state this outright - only having Luther make the claim that the Watchers took his body away and that eventually he will return to forgive Luther.

That he is definitely in the Rock sleeping is fact, I think - whether or not he will return specifically to forgive Luther is the part that's up for debate. I distinctly recall the 7th ed. Codex saying that "no one, not even Luthor knew the real truth [at the heart of the Rock]" and I think that's been pretty consistent for the last few editions.

[hamishspence]

Good point, I found that on page 32 on the 7e codex. Amended my statement.

And something similar in the 6e codex (page 26) and the 8e one (p144)

6e:
"Buried yet deeper within the Rock, hidden in its innermost chamber, is the final, greatest secret of the Dark Angels. Only one person in the galaxy knows the full truth - the Emperor. Even in his living entombment upon the Golden Throne, even though the sunken orbits of his skull no longer have eyes, the Emperor still sees much. Hidden inside a secluded chamber at the heart of what was once the planet of Caliban, unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping. There he slumbers, his wounds long-healed, waiting for that time when he will be needed again, when the clarion call of battle sounds for the last time, summoning him once again to defend the Imperium of Man against its enemies."

7e:
"The highest ranking Dark Angels believe that they know all of the Rock's many secrets, yet even they remain ignorant of their stronghold's greatest revelation. Hidden inside a secluded chamber, unreachable by all save the small, robed figures of the Watchers in the Dark, the mighty Primarch Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping. His wounds long healed, he waits for that time when he will be needed once again. When the clarion call of battle sounds for the last time, Jonson will be summoned forth from his millennial rest to defend the Imperium of Mankind from its enemies. Then shall all traitors quake in fear, for the Lion's vengeance will be terrible indeed."

8e:
"One more truth remains concealed, however. Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban, is the greatest of all the Dark Angels' secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El'Jonson slumbers. His wounds long-healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind."


Nothing in the 3e codex, the 4e codex or in WD254's IA: Dark Angels, though.

So, we know what source introduced it from "novels" to "codex" - the 6e codex.

[Lord Torath]

Originally, no one knew about Lion's sleeping place except the Emperor:

THE FINAL SECRET

The only people who know about the disastrous events that took place on Caliban all those millennia ago are the Emperor and the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels will never reveal the truth to anyone outside the Chapter for they could not bear others to know the truth of their terrible shame. And all the while, deep within his cell, Luther, the betrayer, speaks of what is to come. Yet even the highest ranking Dark Angels do not know everything, although they may think that they do.

Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El' Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies. I guess the Watchers in the Dark don't count as people.

[hamishspence]

"Waiting with the Watchers in the dark" does suggest that the Watchers know. That said, it's nice to see that the concept goes right back to 2e. Not sure why they never included anything about it in 3e or 4e.

[Cheesegear]

So there are people in the Imperium who think that the Aeldari can fix the Emperor, or at least the Throne...

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*


but unfortunately they are also morons who get purged by the Custodes.

Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

[noob]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*



Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

Poor emperor forever constrained to rotting on a throne and seeing a thousand people being sacrificed to him each day.
(Also warpy stuff would be too risked to heal the emperor because the chaos gods would try to corrupt it)

[Forum Explorer]

Yvraine makes Guilliman walk.
Yvraine un-Dusts Rubric Marines.
...C- C-...Can you do that to Him? *Points at The Emperor*



Cypher thought he could fix The Emperor, and then Gulliman clotheslined him.
The other problem, is that if you get Yvraine within handwaving distance of The Emperor...Would she kill Him? Hmm...Better not risk it.

Which is how I basically imagine the Primarchs, standing around the Throne:

Vulkan: He's, well...He's Dad! Get him out of the Throne and he'll stand up good as new! Like me!

Leman Russ: I suppose we could kill him. He'll reincarnate somewhere.
Jaghatai: Then we do a Crusade again to find The Child?

Guilliman: Psst...Hey Cawl... Instead of doing anything about the Throne, I need you to work on making an army personally loyal to me. The longer Dad's out, the longer I'm in charge. Got it?
Cawl: You're giving me unlimited budget and no oversight? ...And you're just going to trust me? ...Okay!

Corax: ...Hear me out...What if...What if we take Him out of the Throne, and He just...Dies?
*The Primarchs stare at walls...*
Dorn: ...Best not risk it. Let's do nothing and hope it works itself out.

Dad: [Screams internally]

Yvraine would totally kill the Emperor or refuse to help, whichever would keep him in an ineffective state. The Emperor was the greatest threat to the existence of all the Xenos in the galaxy and I can't see a scenario where it would be better to let him out than to just risk handling whatever current problem they face on their own.

[LansXero]

Yvraine would totally kill the Emperor or refuse to help, whichever would keep him in an ineffective state. The Emperor was the greatest threat to the existence of all the Xenos in the galaxy and I can't see a scenario where it would be better to let him out than to just risk handling whatever current problem they face on their own.

They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

[Forum Explorer]

They can't handle it. They never will. Sooner or later she will eat them all, unless they find a permanent solution, and if she doesn't then the awakening dynasties will. Getting the Emperor up and saccing him on the Silent King so he can satiate his xenophobia on tomb worlds is pretty much the best scenario for Eldars atm.

No man, best scenario is getting Guilliman or another Primarch to get the Imperium unified to do that for them. They can be bargained with and are much less likely to become a xenocidal threat in their own right.


On a slightly different note, what happens if a Blank ends up in Nurgle's Garden or Tzeentch's Maze? Or any of the other Chaos Realms? Do the physical structures fall apart or something?