battlemaster vs samurai for rogue-fighter MC sharpshooter archer?

[w15p]

wanting to avoid thread necromancy...

but as an addendum to https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614291-MC-Battlemaster-Inquisitive-archer-build , is samurai better here? (rogue Inquisitive 4, fighter 3), rogue lvl4 feat: sharpshooter.

Samurai gives 3 advantage "on demand" per short rest. Battle Master gives Precision Attack (amongst other options, many of which don't seem quite as good for ranged) 4x per short rest and does have other options if I want or need to mix it up.

Advantage equals an approximate +3 to +4, 1d8 (superiority die) gives 4.5 on average, but advantage plays well with elven accuracy, whereas there is no such benefit with Precision Attack and Precision Attack doesn't give sneak attack (though as an inquisitive rogue, this is pretty easy to get and Precision Attack has no action economy cost to compete with Insightful Fighting)

All in all, Battle Master seems much more flexible than Samurai even if I forgo Elven Accuracy - with an 18 dex, the half feat has less appeal anyway.

Any thoughts?

[LudicSavant]

wanting to avoid thread necromancy...

but as an addendum to https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614291-MC-Battlemaster-Inquisitive-archer-build , is samurai better here? (rogue Inquisitive 4, fighter 3), rogue lvl4 feat: sharpshooter.

Samurai gives 3 advantage "on demand" per short rest. Battle Master gives Precision Attack (amongst other options, many of which don't seem quite as good for ranged) 4x per short rest and does have other options if I want or need to mix it up.

Advantage equals an approximate +3 to +4, 1d8 (superiority die) gives 4.5 on average, but advantage plays well with elven accuracy, whereas there is no such benefit with Precision Attack and Precision Attack doesn't give sneak attack (though as an inquisitive rogue, this is pretty easy to get and Precision Attack has no action economy cost to compete with Insightful Fighting)

All in all, Battle Master seems much more flexible than Samurai even if I forgo Elven Accuracy - with an 18 dex, the half feat has less appeal anyway.

Any thoughts?

I did a pretty thorough breakdown of Samurai vs Battle Master here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds/page20&p=24726630#post24726630), with AnyDice charts and so forth.

While it doesn't involve any Rogue levels, you can use that program to do the math for the Battle Master and Samurai builds without simplifying.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I’m a big fan of Fighter & Rogue multiclass builds.

Just one small detail: Fighting Spirit from Samurai recharges on long-rest.

I believe Battle Master would fit better because you’ll have a lot of competition for your bonus action with Fighting Spirit, Cunning Action and Insightful Fighting. Also there’s too much overlap between Fighting Spirit and Insightful Fighting, and honestly, you can “easily” (DM dependent) get advantage hiding yourself with Cunning Action.

OTOH, Battle Master maneuvers synergize really well with Rogue. Precision Attack is good, but Risposte can help you get Sneak Attack damage one more time and there are amazing things like Menacing Attack, etc.

[LudicSavant]

I'll note that Fighting Spirit is only really a "3/long rest" thing at specific levels: 3-9. After that it's more a "blow 3 at the start of the day, then once per fight" thing, due to their level 10 ability.

I generally like Battle Master more for multiclassing than the Samurai because they're a bit more frontloaded. Moreso if they're multiclassing with a build that already has good bonus actions (since Fighting Spirit takes a bonus action).

[w15p]

Cool - thanks for all the info!

I'm leaning towards Battle Master and maybe picking up crossbow expert for the close range benefit (though 2 of the 3 benefits are lost on me, as I use a longbow... oh well)

[Ir0ns0ul]

I'll note that Fighting Spirit is only really a "3/long rest" thing at specific levels: 3-9. After that it's more a "blow 3 at the start of the day, then once per fight" thing, due to their level 10 ability.

Really good point. I might say 3-9 is the common range level most of my campaigns had, so if the OP is planning to go beyond that, probably Samurai would be a better choice -- especially because Rapid Strike is awesome!


Cool - thanks for all the info!

I'm leaning towards Battle Master and maybe picking up crossbow expert for the close range benefit (though 2 of the 3 benefits are lost on me, as I use a longbow... oh well)

You can never go wrong with battle maneuvers (that recharge in a short-rest). There are some really cool maneuvers for archer who featured in the famous Class Variant UA (https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf) while ago, if this is on the table for you, Snipe is particularly good (allows you to trade a BM die for an extra attack using your bonus action) -- this maneuver will probably appear in the new Tasha's book.

[Petrocorus]

I didn't break the numbers as thoroughly as LudicSavant (obviously), but i believe that with Elven Accuracy, Samurai is strictly better the BM.

In other cases:

Fighting Spirit works very well with SS/GWM, and combine with Action Surge and Extra Attack.

Precision Attack works well with SS/GWM, but only works for one attack. OTOH, it doesn't cost you your BA and recharge on a short rest.

For me, what makes BM really good is the other maneuvers that can have really nice effect and are action-free except for Feinting Attack.
Menacing Attack notably works very well at range, if the enemy doesn't have range attacks and fail his saves, he's losing a turn. Pushing Attack is certainly interesting too.

Most of maneuvers work at range except those:
Lunging Attack, Riposte, and Sweeping Attack only work with melee. Quite logically.
Feinting attack does require you to be within 5 ft of your target when you use your bonus action, but you can move before the attack.

[dragoeniex]

I'm running a Battle Master/Rogue in one game currently (6 fighter, 5 rogue). While my guy is more of a fencer supreme, I still get mileage out of ranged superiority maneuvers. There's something satisfying about longbow whapping someone across the field with Goading Attack, then moving even further back so they can't reach you in one turn even if they tried, and now they've got disadvantage on all your friends.

"Neener, neener, can't catch me~"

If you run with the UA class feature rules, Battle Masters also get the ability to switch their maneuvers over a long rest. That gives you the option to play with different kinds of trick shots.



I've played a Samurai + Elven Accuracy + Sharp Shooter build for a 4-or-5 session stretch before when I needed a temporary character. It was fun playing this riflewoman who took pride in her ability to headshot things across the field.



All in all, the Samurai did more burst damage, while the Battle Master hybrid offered more combat tricks. I'd lean toward the Battle Master a bit just for that variety.