Baldur's Gate 3, and their awesome Ranger?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was just wondering how other people feel about the new ranger ideas proposed in Larian Studios "Baldur's Gate 3". They added a new very nice version of the ranger with different starting class features that seem to add a lot more interesting things to the class? I understand most of these are to improve the video game use of the class, but for table top games these sound like relevant things to

1st trait Examples: (all of these also add a relevant skill)
Protection from Evil/Good as a single cast?
True Strike (now a concentration spell for a cantrip? Applies to all attacks on target until you lose concentration)
Heavy Armor proficiency as a trait?
Sacred Flame

2nd Trait Examples
Find Familiar as a Ritual cast?
2 free tool proficiency
Fire, Frost, or Poison Resist?

[OldTrees1]

To paraphrase:
Baldur's gate 3 replaced the impossible to code Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer

For example
Favored Enemy: Mage Breaker (https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Mage+Breaker)
Replaces Favored Enemy with Arcana Proficiency and the True Strike cantrip
Natural Explorer: Beast Tamer (https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Beast+Tamer)
Replaces Natural Explorer with Find Familiar (Ritual only)


These are interesting but their merit depends on how useful you found Natural Explorer (do you travel overland a lot) and Favored Enemy (is this a species themed campaign).

[Kane0]

Hold up, this wasnt in my Larian Gazette. What info source am I missing here?

Edit: following the link for those interested:

FAVORED ENEMY
When you create a Ranger, you must choose one of the following Favored Enemies, this allows the Ranger to gain certain Proficiency or learn a new Spell.

Bounty Hunter: Gain Proficiency in Investigation and learn the Thieves' Cant passive. Creatures you Restrain have a harder time escaping.
Keeper of the Veil: Gain Proficiency in Arcana, and can cast Protection from Evil and Good.
Mage Breaker: Gain Proficiency with Arcana and the True Strike cantrip. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for this Spell
Ranger Knight: Gain Proficiency with History and Heavy Armour.
Sanctified Stalker: Gain Proficiency in Religion and the Sacred Flame Cantrip. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for this Spell


NATURAL EXPLORER
When you create a Ranger, you must choose one of the following types of Natural Explorer, this allows the Ranger to increase the amount of skills at his/her disposal.

Beast Tamer: You can cast Find Familiar as a ritual.
Urban Tracker: You gain Proficiency with the disguise kits and thieves' tools.
Wasteland Wanderer: Cold: Gain resistance to Cold damage, taking only half from it.
Wasteland Wanderer: Fire: Gain resistance to Fire, only taking half damage from it.
Wasteland Wanderer: Poison: Gain resistance to Poison and take only half damage from it.

Looks pretty neat actually

[Fnissalot]

That is probably a clean and nice way to improve the ranger. But I think that it might still feel a bit on the weak side, compared to other classes at level 1?

[Kane0]

That is probably a clean and nice way to improve the ranger. But I think that it might still feel a bit on the weak side, compared to other classes at level 1?

I dunno, Bounty Hunter + Urban Tracker feels pretty comparable to Rogue 1 IMO.

Ranger Knight also seems a pretty fun option, and I doubt you could go wrong with Beast Tamer.

[Fnissalot]

I dunno, Bounty Hunter + Urban Tracker feels pretty comparable to Rogue 1 IMO.

Ranger Knight also seems a pretty fun option, and I doubt you could go wrong with Beast Tamer.

Yeah, I guess, expertise and sneak attack vs better armor and weapon proficiencies and disguise kit proficiencies are almost comparable?

Heavy armor proficiency is interesting but looks rather lackluster compared to paladins also getting lay on hands, but it makes str-rangers a much more valid choice.

Beast tamer is probably the strongest option (I have played variant humans with the ritual casting feat just to get it) and wasteland wanderer poison is rather good as absorb elements don't protect from poison.

Sanctified stalker and bounty hunter are probably the options I find most interesting? One allows you to use wisdom-rangers, the other should make ensnaring strike and similar spells a lot better.

[Unoriginal]

So does that mean Boo is Minsc's familiar now?

[MoiMagnus]

I see they are giving the True Strike cantrip. Did they buff it or is it as bad as in the tabletop game?

I mean, the cantrip has some uses, for example when you fight in disadvantageous situations, since one normal attack might be better than two disadvantaged attacks. But it's still very situational.

[Amnestic]

I see they are giving the True Strike cantrip. Did they buff it or is it as bad as in the tabletop game?

I mean, the cantrip has some uses, for example when you fight in disadvantageous situations, since one normal attack might be better than two disadvantaged attacks. But it's still very situational.

It appears to be the same mechanics as before.

It might be more useful as a prebuff concentration spell because video games are easier to 'game' (quick save/quick load on a combat) compared to tabletop to guarantee advantage on your first turn but that's not a change to the spell itself.

[cutlery]

Before character creation, I don't think I had realized how weird the Githyanki race was.


I really wish WotC made even a halfhearted attempt to balance races.

[Morty]

I'm not seeing anything too impressive, if I'm being honest. Maybe it's better in practice, but this just feels like throwing features at the wall, same as with most attempts to fix rangers. And of course a lot of it is spells, since they're 5E's main way of doing anything interesting. That and extra proficiencies are nice and all, but not ground-breaking.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello all, I was just wondering how other people feel about the new ranger ideas proposed in Larian Studios "Baldur's Gate 3".
Has this game gone live, or is this still in play test?

[Amnestic]

Has this game gone live, or is this still in play test?

It released for Early Access yesterday. Early Access is anticipated to last roughly a year before full and final release.

Early Access currently has six classes (fighter, ranger, rogue, warlock, cleric, wizard) with only a few subclasses each and about half the expected playable races, along with only the first Act (of 3(?)) planned.

[KorvinStarmast]

It released for Early Access yesterday. Early Access is anticipated to last roughly a year before full and final release.

Early Access currently has six classes (fighter, ranger, rogue, warlock, cleric, wizard) with only a few subclasses each and about half the expected playable races, along with only the first Act (of 3(?)) planned. Oh, man, I think I may need to investigate that. :)

[GlenSmash!]

Ranger Knight looks like a fitting way to play a single classed Aragorn Style Ranger. I'd like to see more Natural Explorer options but on the whole I'm intrigued.

[Rfkannen]

Do rangers still have phb primeval awareness?

[Mr Adventurer]

To paraphrase:
Baldur's gate 3 replaced the impossible to code Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer.

Why would they be impossible to code? The accounts that I've seen are suggesting that BG3 cleaves closely to the 5e rules and processes. Seems like monsters will have types and tags and you'd be making checks per the rules, and I don't see why the same couldn't apply to environments in the game.

I do see how it might not be seen as interesting enough.

I like the new approaches.

[CMCC]

Adding the find familiar spell (with slightly different animal selections) seems like a no brainer to me.

[Nidgit]

Adding modular abilities derived from Favored Enemies and Terrains has been the obvious revision to rangers for me. It's progress, but I think this version might still be a bit weak in combat compared to the Paladin.

[Amnestic]

Adding the find familiar spell (with slightly different animal selections) seems like a no brainer to me.

Heads up that at least in the game, currently, you can't have both your beast master animal and your familiar out at the same time.

Though if you adapt it for tabletop, less of an issue of course.

[Dienekes]

Heads up that at least in the game, currently, you can't have both your beast master animal and your familiar out at the same time.

Though if you adapt it for tabletop, less of an issue of course.

Did the fix the control issues where only you or your companion can really act each turn?

[GlenSmash!]

Why would they be impossible to code? The accounts that I've seen are suggesting that BG3 cleaves closely to the 5e rules and processes. Seems like monsters will have types and tags and you'd be making checks per the rules, and I don't see why the same couldn't apply to environments in the game.


How would the code cover?

"Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area."

[animewatcha]

Why does it seem like one level of ranger is going to be taken a lot for find familiar. Then sending the familiar ( and making a new one because of.. ) to set off all the traps. Thereby killing the need for rogue to disable them?

[heavyfuel]

How would the code cover?

"Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.

Give Rangers that path finding ability that's super common in 3rd person shooters where there's a glow on the floor leading you to your marked objective


Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.


No penalties to Passive Perception (assuming PP is stilla thing in the game) when doing these activities


If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.

If you have no companions, double stealth movespeed. Doesn't seem particularly impossible to do.


When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area."

These are the only things I would consider "impossible to code" but only because I don't think the game will have a hunger system or a tracking system.

[Amnestic]

Did the fix the control issues where only you or your companion can really act each turn?

I've noticed no combat control issues in ~4.5 hours of play. Swapping party members out of combat for fine movement is a little clunky still though there's almost certainly a keybind I'm not using for it.

Another thing the ranger seems to do, though I've not 100% confirmed it, is change how Hunter's Mark works. Hard to explain.

Cast on target A. Requires concentration. Kill target A.
You then seem to not require concentration anymore and can use it on other spells, before choosing to re-up hunter's mark on target B (without using a spell slot), requiring concentration on it once more.
Lose concentration while it's active, it's gone, but you seem to be able to basically "pause" the concentration on hunter's mark in between targets to let you use other spells in the meantime. In that way, as long as you don't lose concentration you can weave in other spells between kills, changing up how you start encounters, etc.

Also it lasts until the next long rest by default, but BG3 seems to be playing a bit more loose with long spell durations since it's not tracking long periods of time.

[Mr Adventurer]

How would the code cover?

"Your group can’t become lost except by magical means.
Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger.
If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace.
When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would.
While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area."

What do you mean? What I've seen shows a fairly faithful recreation of the 5e ruleset. What's hard about it?

[Dark.Revenant]

What do you mean? What I've seen shows a fairly faithful recreation of the 5e ruleset. What's hard about it?

Most of those things would require Larian to implement entirely new game mechanics *overall*, just so that the Ranger can be better at those newly-added game mechanics. That's typically seen as Bad Design.

[Mr Adventurer]

Most of those things would require Larian to implement entirely new game mechanics *overall*, just so that the Ranger can be better at those newly-added game mechanics. That's typically seen as Bad Design.

What do you mean? Entirely new in comparison to what?

[Dienekes]

I've noticed no combat control issues in ~4.5 hours of play. Swapping party members out of combat for fine movement is a little clunky still though there's almost certainly a keybind I'm not using for it.


I’m more talking about the bit that in the tabletop version controlling your companion to do anything but move requires an action. So either you attack/cast spells, or your companion attacked but never both. Which generally made the animal companion feel pretty lifeless and odd.

[micahaphone]

True Strike HAS been buffed for Baulder's Gate 3. From Reddit:

BG3 True Strike Lasts 2 turns and gives Advantage to all attack rolls

[cutlery]

True Strike HAS been buffed for Baulder's Gate 3. From Reddit:

BG3 True Strike Lasts 2 turns and gives Advantage to all attack rolls

Wow, that’s pretty nice.

[animewatcha]

Where is the appropriate area to leave feedback so that True Strike in tabletop can be errata'ed to do the same?

[Unoriginal]

Where is the appropriate area to leave feedback so that True Strike in tabletop can be errata'ed to do the same?

Outside of an UA on the subject I don't know.

[MaxWilson]

Where is the appropriate area to leave feedback so that True Strike in tabletop can be errata'ed to do the same?

Wizards of the Coast LLC
P.O. Box 707
Renton, WA 98057

Corporate Phone
(425) 226-6500

[KorvinStarmast]

I can't believe I did this. I actually loaded steam back onto my PC so that I can play this.
Well there we go: good judgment is not always required.

[Gignere]

Where is the appropriate area to leave feedback so that True Strike in tabletop can be errata'ed to do the same?

That would be insane for EK or a sorcadin.

[MaxWilson]

That would be insane for EK or a sorcadin.

Eh... it's okay, but it's not like an EK can't already get advantage (with no concentration cost) just by spending an attack shoving the enemy prone, then making more attacks at advantage. Spending your whole action casting True Strike is... okay if you expect this particular enemy to live for several more rounds despite you hitting it as hard as you can. But if it's a 120ish-HP enemy who's going to be dead from focused fire by the end of next round, then getting nothing but a bonus attack this round is a high price to pay for getting advantage on your next round's attacks.

It's definitely better than the current, useless True Strike though. It would also have some utility for cancelling out e.g. disadvantage from Net attacks, or enemy invisibility, or being poisoned/restrained.

[Gignere]

Eh... it's okay, but it's not like an EK can't already get advantage (with no concentration cost) just by spending an attack shoving the enemy prone, then making more attacks at advantage. Spending your whole action casting True Strike is... okay if you expect this particular enemy to live for several more rounds despite you hitting it as hard as you can. But if it's a 120ish-HP enemy who's going to be dead from focused fire by the end of next round, then getting nothing but a bonus attack this round is a high price to pay for getting advantage on your next round's attacks.

It's definitely better than the current, useless True Strike though. It would also have some utility for cancelling out e.g. disadvantage from Net attacks, or enemy invisibility, or being poisoned/restrained.

Shoving is not automatic success and there is size limitations or the enemy hovers. EK has war magic and can immediately action surge. True strikes guaranteeing 2 rounds of advantage would be a huge deal.

It’s a cantrip, maybe change it to bonus action to cast and advantage for next attack. No concentration though.

[MaxWilson]

Shoving is not automatic success and there is size limitations or the enemy hovers. EK has war magic and can immediately action surge. True strikes guaranteeing 2 rounds of advantage would be a huge deal.

How huge? Have you run the numbers? What assumptions did you make?

Giving up 2-3 attacks and your concentration is a heavy price to pay. Sure, you can Action Surge, but you also could have Action Surged actual attacks while using your concentration on e.g. Blur, or Magic Weapon for extra accuracy and damage. Granted that it can fail, shoving prone also benefits your allies and reduces enemy damage (it lets you kite).

I'm not saying the revised True Strike would be useless--in some situations it would be quite good, as a spell should be. But it's definitely not something you'd want to spam against every enemy in every fight. Agree/disagree?

[Gignere]

How huge? Have you run the numbers? What assumptions did you make?

Giving up 2-3 attacks and your concentration is a heavy price to pay. Sure, you can Action Surge, but you also could have Action Surged actual attacks while using your concentration on e.g. Blur, or Magic Weapon for extra accuracy and damage. Granted that it can fail, shoving prone also benefits your allies and reduces enemy damage (it lets you kite).

I'm not saying the revised True Strike would be useless--in some situations it would be quite good, as a spell should be. But it's definitely not something you'd want to spam against every enemy in every fight. Agree/disagree?

I think for a sharpshooting eleven accuracy archer I would be spamming it pretty much all day long. The DPR would be really high basically the LudicSavant samurai build but now instead of samurai it’s EK and an unlimited source of self buffed advantage.

One of the drawbacks of the EK in that it’s pretty much the only fighter subclass with long rest resources. But now a limitless resourceless source of advantage damn I think I would be even trying to build around it.

This doesn’t even cover the quicken spam of the sorcadin for crit fishing.

[Sindeloke]

The same Reddit thread notes that the casting time is a bonus action, so no need to lose the first Extra Attack.

[Gignere]

The same Reddit thread notes that the casting time is a bonus action, so no need to lose the first Extra Attack.

If they implemented this as a bonus action for pen and paper there is no reason to play a samurai and basically every sharpshooter/GWM build will be squeezing this into the build. Like BM with magic initiate, Paladins of every stripe will be salivating.

[animewatcha]

If they implemented this as a bonus action for pen and paper there is no reason to play a samurai and basically every sharpshooter/GWM build will be squeezing this into the build. Like BM with magic initiate, Paladins of every stripe will be salivating.

Don't you mean that martial may actually get something nice for once??

[MaxWilson]

The same Reddit thread notes that the casting time is a bonus action, so no need to lose the first Extra Attack.

That's a bit much then.


Don't you mean that martial may actually get something nice for once??

But it's a spell! Martials can already get a bunch of awesome spells--typically the pushback comes from those who want to be supernaturally awesome without being magic in any way.

[Morty]

Don't you mean that martial may actually get something nice for once??

By casting a spell. Which... is par for the course for this game, really.

[Amnestic]

I’m more talking about the bit that in the tabletop version controlling your companion to do anything but move requires an action. So either you attack/cast spells, or your companion attacked but never both. Which generally made the animal companion feel pretty lifeless and odd.

Oh, sorry, misunderstood the question.

From what I can tell the animal companion has their own initiative and actions and could act freely without restrictions or sacrifice on the ranger's part. It's essentially a second, weaker character. I don't know if there'll be a way to sacrifice my Extra Attack to give the beast-buddy an extra attack once I hit 5, but for now I can absolutely do a full suite of action/move/bonus action on my ranger and then do the same with the animal companion.

Summoning animal companions is also a no-cost (other than 'one at a time') instant 'spellcast'. My wolf died against some harpies (RIP) but I just resummoned it straight afterwards. Not sure if you can resummon in combat, I didn't think to try, I expect not? You can also swap forms freely between...five I think? Wolf (knocks prone), spider (poisons), boar (charges), raven (blinds/flies) and...I forget the last one because I haven't used it.

[Skylivedk]

Oh, sorry, misunderstood the question.

From what I can tell the animal companion has their own initiative and actions and could act freely without restrictions or sacrifice on the ranger's part. It's essentially a second, weaker character. I don't know if there'll be a way to sacrifice my Extra Attack to give the beast-buddy an extra attack once I hit 5, but for now I can absolutely do a full suite of action/move/bonus action on my ranger and then do the same with the animal companion.

Summoning animal companions is also a no-cost (other than 'one at a time') instant 'spellcast'. My wolf died against some harpies (RIP) but I just resummoned it straight afterwards. Not sure if you can resummon in combat, I didn't think to try, I expect not? You can also swap forms freely between...five I think? Wolf (knocks prone), spider (poisons), boar (charges), raven (blinds/flies) and...I forget the last one because I haven't used it.

That sounds like a significant buff of the ranger! Did they weaken the animal companion to compensate or is the game just happy with buff?

[Desteplo]

Might just be part of the class feature optional rules I’m sure are coming out with tashas.
-those might be the new options coming out with that book

[Amnestic]

That sounds like a significant buff of the ranger! Did they weaken the animal companion to compensate or is the game just happy with buff?

From what I can tell the animal companions are close, but not identical to their MM counterparts. Wolf doesn't seem to have pack tactics, Boar doesn't do extra damage on charge, the bear doesn't seem to have multiattack. Minor nerfs but not significant changes, and the bear does have a taunt ability 'Goading Roar - Roar at nearby enemies to goad them to attack you' (save negates, retry save at end of turn).

Giant Spider doesn't specify damage for poison but it has comparable bite damage, a web ability, but with 32 HP it's probably the strongest option in BG3. Maybe.

Because familiars also get their own initiative+action set, chain pact warlocks also get a minor buff, though the imp's poison damage has been dropped from 3d6 to 1d6, and quasit damage has been changed to just flat 2d4, no poison. They also lost the shapeshift ability though that's probably because it's less useful in the game BG3 is trying to be. Chainpact doesn't currently seem to have a pseudodragon option, just imp/quasit.

[Hael]

Apparently they’ve also changed the thief mechanic. They now get two BAs. Also any class can take the disengage BA, which is a pretty serious relative nerf to rogues in general and radically changes combat.

I’m pretty sure that’s going to massively overpower casters and make tanking and positioning a bit of a kite fest.

Anyway, I’m not a fan of 5es combat engine in general, and I think it’s going to be a bit too basic for a video game, but we shall see.

[KorvinStarmast]

On the bright side, it takes for freaking ever to down load the game. :smallyuk:

[Morty]

Apparently they’ve also changed the thief mechanic. They now get two BAs. Also any class can take the disengage BA, which is a pretty serious relative nerf to rogues in general and radically changes combat.

I was wondering about that. They did say they'd give rogues something to compensate for the enhanced options everyone gets now. I'm not sure if two BAs are enough.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Apparently they’ve also changed the thief mechanic. They now get two BAs. Also any class can take the disengage BA, which is a pretty serious relative nerf to rogues in general and radically changes combat.

I’m pretty sure that’s going to massively overpower casters and make tanking and positioning a bit of a kite fest.

Anyway, I’m not a fan of 5es combat engine in general, and I think it’s going to be a bit too basic for a video game, but we shall see.

I'm trying out a solo rogue right now (enemies are currently kind of stupid, so you can actually be a pop up rogue) and cunning action being a bit nerfed isn't the only hit they took. As far as I can tell you can't sneak attack on your off hand attack, you have to use the sneak attack action.

Swinging back to rangers though, it's probably a bug but colossus slayer applies on attacks against full health targets. Ranger feels pretty strong.

[CharonsHelper]

Anyway, I’m not a fan of 5es combat engine in general, and I think it’s going to be a bit too basic for a video game, but we shall see.

If you want a crunchier version of a similar combat system - check out Kingmaker (based on Pathfinder). I've actually been enjoying it a lot more since they added a turn-based mode a couple months back. The AI seems a bit improved on turn-based (they'll go after your backline squishies now) though I still use the Real Time w/ Pause for the trash fights.

Just don't get the console version yet - I've heard that it's still pretty buggy there. PC version is fine - the only issues I've had have been 100% due to some of the mods I've tried. (I suggest Call of the Wild.)

[Hael]

If you want a crunchier version of a similar combat system - check out Kingmaker (based on Pathfinder). I've actually been enjoying it a lot more since they added a turn-based mode a couple months back. The AI seems a bit improved on turn-based (they'll go after your backline squishies now) though I still use the Real Time w/ Pause for the trash fights.

Just don't get the console version yet - I've heard that it's still pretty buggy there. PC version is fine - the only issues I've had have been 100% due to some of the mods I've tried. (I suggest Call of the Wild.)

Kingmaker is fantastic, and so is knights of the chalice and of course the old school goldbox games, bg2, nwn etc. In general add2 and 3.5 and maybe even 4e work quite well for video games bc it takes a lot of the DM work out of it without sacrificing the good aspects and so deep tactical play is possible. 5e remains to be seen, but I’m very worried that it’s going to end up not unlike tabletop where optimal play mostly involves ranged combat + a few spells to CC.

[micahaphone]

Kingmaker is fantastic, and so is knights of the chalice and of course the old school goldbox games, bg2, nwn etc. In general add2 and 3.5 and maybe even 4e work quite well for video games bc it takes a lot of the DM work out of it without sacrificing the good aspects and so deep tactical play is possible. 5e remains to be seen, but I’m very worried that it’s going to end up not unlike tabletop where optimal play mostly involves ranged combat + a few spells to CC.

That'll probably be true, but it looks like BG3 offers more to strength builds than 5e does. You can pick up and throw enemies, that's a lot better than max shove of 5 ft

[MaxWilson]

Kingmaker is fantastic, and so is knights of the chalice and of course the old school goldbox games, bg2, nwn etc. In general add2 and 3.5 and maybe even 4e work quite well for video games bc it takes a lot of the DM work out of it without sacrificing the good aspects and so deep tactical play is possible. 5e remains to be seen, but I’m very worried that it’s going to end up not unlike tabletop where optimal play mostly involves ranged combat + a few spells to CC.

If BG3 is anything like the demos we've seen so far, optimal play will be superfluous.

[CharonsHelper]

Kingmaker is fantastic, and so is knights of the chalice and of course the old school goldbox games, bg2, nwn etc. In general add2 and 3.5 and maybe even 4e work quite well for video games bc it takes a lot of the DM work out of it without sacrificing the good aspects and so deep tactical play is possible. 5e remains to be seen, but I’m very worried that it’s going to end up not unlike tabletop where optimal play mostly involves ranged combat + a few spells to CC.

Yeah, 5e is a solid system, but it does rely upon subjective calls by the DM to flow moreso than 3.X/PF does (which is arguably a strength at tabletop - as it means less looking up of rules). It'll be interesting to see how it works in a CRPG. I'm going to wait until the full release though, as I have no desire to deal with all the bugs. (I waited nearly two years after release for Kingmaker for the same reason, as I heard that it was a buggy mess at launch. Works great now though.)

[ProsecutorGodot]

If BG3 is anything like the demos we've seen so far, optimal play will be superfluous.

Two things on this:
- You are kind of correct, enemies aren't very smart at the moment and you don't really need to worry about what your best choices are.
- If they do improve enemy AI, I've noticed that unless your target is prone Sacred Flame is almost always worse than using a Bow, even if your Cleric is sporting 10 Dex. The reason being that the system includes bonuses to hit from high/low ground that are substantial while nothing but Bane/automatic failure conditions improves your DC spells effectiveness.

So even though optimal play is pretty unimportant now, a Cleric who doesn't carry a shortbow isn't going to contribute much to combat, the same is probably true for any strength based martials as well. I guess it is pretty faithful to 5E in this way.

[stoutstien]

I am enjoying the Ba shove/kick as a base option and the integration of improvised weapons.

[MeeposFire]

Yeah, 5e is a solid system, but it does rely upon subjective calls by the DM to flow moreso than 3.X/PF does (which is arguably a strength at tabletop - as it means less looking up of rules). It'll be interesting to see how it works in a CRPG. I'm going to wait until the full release though, as I have no desire to deal with all the bugs. (I waited nearly two years after release for Kingmaker for the same reason, as I heard that it was a buggy mess at launch. Works great now though.)

AD&D was also very DM dependent but the old infinity engine D&D games were very well received and worked very well (in fact the least liked one is probably the only one that was in the 3e format which was IWDII). Due to this I do not think this will be an inherent issue.

Computer games tend to flatten the issues that people tend to see with casters and everybody else (though not necessarily eliminate them). For instance 3e is probably the most caster friendly/everybody else unfriendly edition of D&D but you do not see it anywhere near that bad in NWN (thank goodness the full attack action does not exist in that game in the way it does on the table top).

[Kane0]

For instance 3e is probably the most caster friendly/everybody else unfriendly edition of D&D but you do not see it anywhere near that bad in NWN (thank goodness the full attack action does not exist in that game in the way it does on the table top).

Indeed, splitting rounds into three parts really did wonders, even if it reduced the importance of initiative somewhat

[Gignere]

Indeed, splitting rounds into three parts really did wonders, even if it reduced the importance of initiative somewhat

Some of the best builds in NWN required 26 levels of caster. Almost nothing beat the self buffed caster charging in and laying waste to everything. So I wouldn’t call it was balanced between martials and casters.

[Arcturus]

Every weapon in BG3 having an extra encounter power might be a nice boost for martials (Bleed on daggers, Trip on staffs, Cleave on great swords, etc.)

[Kane0]

Some of the best builds in NWN required 26 levels of caster. Almost nothing beat the self buffed caster charging in and laying waste to everything. So I wouldn’t call it was balanced between martials and casters.

Epic levels and the power level of magic gear could lead to a very broad spectrum, but I was commenting specifically on how full attacks were handled in a half realtime, half turnbased game.