Stop Detect Magic/Dispel on Teleport Trap/Plot Point?

[Nikushimi]

Hey, now that I have your attention. Probably cause you read the title and maybe got upset at the prospect of bottlenecking your players.

I understand. Railroading isn't fun. Preventing a player from doing something isn't fun.

That's where this question comes in.

We recently started at level 1 in a campaign of mine. They are currently heading to find a relic of sorts. Now, I am not quite sure what exactly I want to use this relic for yet, but it has to do with teleportation. That much I am sure of.

However, what I'm not sure of is exactly what to do with it.

My original idea was as follows.

--The Relic has to do with unlocking Teleportation. An Anchor of sorts that allows teleportation. This is because Teleportation is unheard of and is only a theory with magic in my world. Thus, teleportation magic isn't available to players right now. However, them recovering this relic could potentially unlock those secrets for the scholars of the world. So the relic itself isn't going to be magical, but a component.

However, after thinking on it I came up with an idea that this relic actually is a teleportation transport, as used in the past, but it brings you to a sorta trial/dungeon all its own. Bringing you to a plane of existence that is unique.

The issue I have is with what my title says.
---

If I were to do what my second idea is, and have it transport people to a small plane of existence, like a dungeon within a dungeon with its own biome, how do I get the players to touch it and use it? They already know it might be magical.

So they'd use detect magic if they have it. It'd give it away, they'd be cautious.

Now, detecting magic isn't that big a deal, but it can give it away. My biggest issue is with dispel magic.

I don't want them to dispel it. After all, it's from an ancient civilization where magic was a lot more powerful.

However, I don't want to just say "It doesn't work." to a player who wasted a spell slot.

So how can I handle this? How can I prevent Detect Magic and Dispel Magic on this object if I were to go the second route?

I appreciate any sorta insight. Thank you.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's ok, Dispel Magic doesn't do anything to magic items.

[Nikushimi]

It's ok, Dispel Magic doesn't do anything to magic items.

I heard about that, but it does say

"Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range. Any spell of 3rd level or lower on the target ends. For each spell of 4th level or higher on the target, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a successful check, the spell ends."

So I mean, since a teleportation spell would technically be on the object....

But I have heard it doesn't work on magical items, but I need some proof or backup cause there are a few players at my table who would question that decision. Cause they'd point to exactly what I pointed out.

[Unoriginal]

Dispel Magic doesn't work on magic items, and Detect Magic can easily be countered by Nystul's Magic Aura.

[Nikushimi]

Dispel Magic doesn't work on magic items, and Detect Magic can easily be countered by Nystul's Magic Aura.

But what proof is there on that? As I stated, it does say "Object" in the spell description and it IS an object. So...Why would a teleportation spell on the object not be dispelled?

I know my players. They'd question that decision, so I need a way to point out that it doesn't work on magical items. Cause they'd point to the "object" part of the spell description.

But, I also forgot they don't have dispel magic yet, but in the future they might.

Thanks for the heads up on Nystul's though.

[Amnestic]

But what proof is there on that? As I stated, it does say "Object" in the spell description and it IS an object. So...Why would a teleportation spell on the object not be dispelled?


The item's magical enchantment isn't a "spell" (though I can see how it feels like it should be), so dispel magic doesn't work on it.

If you target a Longsword +1 with dispel magic, it doesn't do anything. If you cast Light on your Longsword +1, and then target it with dispel magic, it would end the Light spell, but it would still be a Longsword +1.

You could certainly rule dispel magic as being able to permanently destroy magic items if you wanted but RAW, it doesn't work that way, nor is it intended to. A 3rd level spell being able to perma-destroy magic items is kinda...unreasonable. If I were to have it affect them at all I'd probably giving the item a saving throw and even then it would only temporarily suppress the enchantment (in the same way an anti-magic field does) on a failure.

[Nikushimi]

The item's magical enchantment isn't a "spell" (though I can see how it feels like it should be), so dispel magic doesn't work on it.

If you target a Longsword +1 with dispel magic, it doesn't do anything. If you cast Light on your Longsword +1, and then target it with dispel magic, it would end the Light spell, but it would still be a Longsword +1.

You could certainly rule dispel magic as being able to permanently destroy magic items if you wanted but RAW, it doesn't work that way, nor is it intended to. A 3rd level spell being able to perma-destroy magic items is kinda...unreasonable. If I were to have it affect them at all I'd probably giving the item a saving throw and even then it would only temporarily suppress the enchantment (in the same way an anti-magic field does) on a failure.

That makes sense. I can just point to the fact that it ends a spell effect, not an enchantment from a magical item kinda thing.

So it would have to be an effect that they know about and it has to be a spell, and magical enchantments aren't "spells".

I get ya. I just was wondering how to explain it to the players to lessen the arguments that may ensue over that ruling.

[Mr Adventurer]

Well, it does depend on exactly how your teleportation item works.

For example. If it's magic is that, when activated, it casts a teleportation circle spell centred on itself, then yes, dispel magic could dispel that spell after it's been cast. Though it might already be too late by that point.

However there's no reason you have to make it work that way; magic items typically don't, I think.

From your post, I assumed that it would, when held and activated, teleport everyone within a small radius to a predetermined destination.

If it doesn't cast a spell with a duration, then there's no spell on it that can be dispelled.

(Note also that Counterspell only works when creatures cast spells, so they can't counterspell objects.)

[Unoriginal]

I heard about that, but it does say

"Choose one creature, object, or magical effect within range.

It's about having a magical effect on the object, not about a permanent magic item.



But I have heard it doesn't work on magical items, but I need some proof or backup cause there are a few players at my table who would question that decision. Cause they'd point to exactly what I pointed out.


But what proof is there on that?

Proof?

"I'm the DM, and I said so." It's the only proof a player should need. But if you *really* need book text about it:

Dispel Magic dispel spells, a magic item being magical isn't a spell.


But what proof is there on that?



As I stated, it does say "Object" in the spell description and it IS an object. So...Why would a teleportation spell on the object not be dispelled?

It's not a teleportation spell on the item, it's the item being enchanted to cast teleportation.



I know my players. They'd question that decision, so I need a way to point out that it doesn't work on magical items. Cause they'd point to the "object" part of the spell description.

Again, you're the DM. Your players can question your decisions all they want, but if you say your decision is final then it is.



Thanks for the heads up on Nystul's though.

You're welcome.

[zinycor]

It's about having a magical effect on the object, not about a permanent magic item.





Proof?

"I'm the DM, and I said so." It's the only proof a player should need. But if you *really* need book text about it:

Dispel Magic dispel spells, a magic item being magical isn't a spell.





It's not a teleportation spell on the item, it's the item being enchanted to cast teleportation.



Again, you're the DM. Your players can question your decisions all they want, but if you say your decision is final then it is.



You're welcome.

In my experience, answering your table by saying "I am the GM and I said so" is a very effective way to get no players in your game.

[Unoriginal]

In my experience, answering your table by saying "I am the GM and I said so" is a very effective way to get no players in your game.

And players refusing to accept that the DM is the DM is a very effective way for players to get no DM in their game.

D&D is a game where people need to respect each other. The DM and the players can talk about the rules and rulings all they want, and a DM should listen to their players' concerns and preferences. but the DM has the final say, and the players need to accept that. Or leave the group if they can't accept it.

No game is better than bad game, and the players refusing to drop an argument when the DM has made the final call is one of the many manners to have "bad game".

"I am the DM and I said so" should obviously not be the first response (as most DMs will have a justification for ruling a certain way), but it is still the response if a DM makes a ruling.

[zinycor]

And players refusing to accept that the DM is the DM is a very effective way for players to get no DM in their game.

D&D is a game where people need to respect each other. The DM and the players can talk about the rules and rulings all they want, and a DM should listen to their players' concerns and preferences. but the DM has the final say, and the players need to accept that. Or leave the group if they can't accept it.

No game is better than bad game, and the players refusing to drop an argument when the DM has made the final call is one of the many manners to have "bad game".

And a game where the GM is all like "No, because I don't feel like it" is another.

My point is that the OP is right in wanting to understand the dispel magic spell better.

[Mr Adventurer]

But what proof is there on that? As I stated, it does say "Object" in the spell description and it IS an object. So...Why would a teleportation spell on the object not be dispelled?

This is the crux of it I think. What teleportation spell are you imagining is on the object? Teleport is typically an instantaneous effect. (Teleportation circle is an exception, which I discuss above.)

If it's a spell that's placed on the object, why is the object itself important at all?

You see where I'm going, with reference to my other post above, I hope. Not everything magical is a spell. That includes the effects of many magic items.

[Unoriginal]

And a game where the GM is all like "No, because I don't feel like it" is another.

That's the DM's role, though. A DM should be fair, but in the end their decisions is their decisions because they prefer X over Y for Z reasons



My point is that the OP is right in wanting to understand the dispel magic spell better.

Oh they're definitively not wrong to want to understand something better. My point is just that "my players will argue my decisions" shouldn't be a factor in wanting to understand more.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

They forgot to name the spell dispel spell.
It have nothing to do with magic, only spells.
In 5e names are weird, another problem is the evil and good spells that have nothing to do with good and/or evil.
Just ignore the name of stuff and only check the discription.

[Nikushimi]

That's the DM's role, though. A DM should be fair, but in the end their decisions is their decisions because they prefer X over Y for Z reasons



Oh they're definitively not wrong to want to understand something better. My point is just that "my players will argue my decisions" shouldn't be a factor in wanting to understand more.

I want to understand for my own knowledge. Not just because my players might argue.

Since several of them are also DMs in their own games they often know the game just as well, if not better than I do.

So they may call into question something they don't agree with and I want to also be able to dissuade them with facts as well as saying "As the DM, I am making this call, and this is the reason." So to minimize any sorta arguments.

But from the explanations of everyone, I can understand why it doesn't effect items. So I appreciate the clarification on the spell Dispel Magic. Thanks everyone.

[Kurt Kurageous]

If we're playing DM semantics, can I join?

Proof: Its a magic ITEM, not a magic object. Trivial, but factual.

Another way around, make your magic item of nasty teleporting sentient. It "communicates" by emotions, and drags the party to various locations until they wise up and learn what it wants. No way to dispel that, gotta destroy it like an artifact.

[Xervous]

Been a while since I checked the DMG. Do artifacts ping as nonmagical in this edition?

[Daracaex]

That makes sense. I can just point to the fact that it ends a spell effect, not an enchantment from a magical item kinda thing.

So it would have to be an effect that they know about and it has to be a spell, and magical enchantments aren't "spells".

I get ya. I just was wondering how to explain it to the players to lessen the arguments that may ensue over that ruling.

"So you would be ok with enemy spellcasters being able to turn your magic items into mundane ones? Or you casting it on an enemy who has a magic item and unintentionally denying yourself loot?"

Reasonable players will get it. I'd say don't do anything about Detect Magic. If the players are smart enough to check, they deserve the knowledge that there's a potential obstacle. What they do about it will be more interesting.