Please Help Picking Druid PrC

[Doctor Despair]

Good morning, denizens of the playground. I am probably the most versed with optimization in my playgroup, so I often help with (or construct) builds for fellow players, but I'm a little stumped on what to do here for a friend joining the campaign. I was hoping for some advice.

Thus far, our party consists of:
* a bard
* a high-ac fighter
* a healer
* a changeling wildshape ranger / master of many forms
* a wizard (I believe conjuration-focused)

Not everyone shows up to every session, or on time, so the DM decided to make room for one more party member, which is fine, but now I'm trying to find a niche for the new man to fill. They seem interested in playing a druid, which at least means natural spell; when asked about what kind of character they're interested in playing, they said:


In answer to your question, I think I've been very much inspired by [redacted]s character lol (author's note: this was a melee-focused druid from a one-shot). I love being able to move around the battlefield and do hella damage, but a Druid would give me all the flexibility I could want.

I do like being able to charm folks and lie my way into / out of things, so I'd say that a high charisma after the wisdom would be cool.

I feel like it's okay if I have a low con etc, because I want to rely really heavily on my wild shape.

I was thinking about trying to put together a druid / warshaper, but as others have mentioned in the forum before, the lack of casting progression makes it a very low-optimization choice for a druid (and not a changeling fighter). Planar shepherd is a supremely strong option, as we know, so I'm not sure it would fit in with the current spread of the party. Going druid 20 is always an option, but I was hoping to find some way to improve wild shape for him, as he said; additionally, I am concerned about maintaining a distinct identity apart from the MoMF in the party.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to fit this man into the party composition?

[CharonsHelper]

I mean, a basic druid could do the job easily. Druid (largely due to how OP 3.5 polymorph rules are) is probably the most powerful base class in the game. It doesn't need to do anything fancy since the wildshapes have nothing to do with their base stats.

[Hiro Quester]

Straight druid is excellent for this purpose. they are the ultimate utility player, able to assume the role of others if a player can't play that game.

If the Bard can't play, they have diplomacy as a class skill and can be backup face.

Wildshape and the right Animal Companion makes them a good backup frontline fighter if the fighter tank or ranger can't play. (The AC can be permanently assigned to protect the wizard, as a very useful role if all the fighters can play, though.)

They have access to reasonable heal and buff spells if the healer can't play.

If the wizard can't play, they can be excellent conjurers (augment summoning feat), and have awesome BFC spells, blasts, buff spells, save or lose spells etc.

And if everyone can play, they can have their own particular niche, as a complement to any of the above, while making a meaningful contribution to any encounter.

Don't overcomplicate it. Straight druid can do all your player needs. It's already relatively overpowered, without needing to add things.

Give them a copy of Eggynack's druid handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook), and they might find a fun variant if they find something intriguing. But it's hardly necessary to mess with what is already a good solution.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you want to focus on Wild Shape while maintaining spellcasting, I don't think there's much more than straight druid and Planar Shepherd. Given that your party doesn't seem very optimized, most anything a druid can do without a specific build will already be pretty powerful, so you can freely spend feats and WBL on social abilities.

Greensinger Initiate adds charm person to your spell list and Bluff to your class skills (and Hide and Perform).
Initiate of Olidamarra will let you cast a few bard spells, including glibness, which is very useful when engaging in social trickery.

Both of these feat suggestions are, of course, from eggy's handbook, which is required reading for anyone interested in druids.

Shape Soulmeld (Silvertongue Mask) gets you +2 Bluff and Diplomacy, with another 2 per point of essentia you gain. An azurin would get +4 at level 1, and could pick up Bonus Essentia at level 9 to increase that bonus to +6, scaling to +8 at level 12.

Bind Vestige lets you bind Naberius, and Practiced Binder then lets you get the Silver Tongue ability, which lets you take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy, and make a rushed Diplomacy check at no penalty and as a standard action.

An exalted character can pick up Nymph's Kiss for +2 on all charisma checks, and +1 skill point per level. I think Bluff-based deception is not really compatible with exalted alignments, but then again, fey are big on enchantments and mind control, so it's fine, right?

[Toliudar]

If the new PC want to seem more distinct from the existing warshaper, and add some social flexibility to the druid, then taking a level of binder, going with a version of druid that gives away wild shape, and adapting Anima Mage for druid casting is the way that I'd go. With the druid spell list and an animal companion they can ride, there are still lots of ways to do 'hella' damage, but the bindings would give the PC some unique options (like Naberius with social interactions).

It's going to be relatively difficult for them to be a melee wildshape focused druid without either feeling overshadowed by or overshadowing a wild shape ranger. The strategies are just too similar.

[Falontani]

Maybe look into Urban Druid and see if they like that? Less powerful druid with a more social role, without losing out on the spellcasting, companion creature, or shapeshifting. And they can turn into construct later on.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's going to be relatively difficult for them to be a melee wildshape focused druid without either feeling overshadowed by or overshadowing a wild shape ranger. The strategies are just too similar.
That's a good point. You might want to select a damage solution different from the one the Master of Many Forms is using. If they're going big and high-strength, focus on Swift Avenger (skirmish damage) in Small bird form; if they're going natural-attack-blender, go for a single big charge, and so on. Druid can pretty much do them all anyway :smalltongue:.

[lylsyly]

Maybe look into Urban Druid and see if they like that? Less powerful druid with a more social role, without losing out on the spellcasting, companion creature, or shapeshifting. And they can turn into construct later on.

Urban Druid also uses CHA as their casting stat reducing MAD. Has both diplomacy and bluff as class skills.

[Doctor Despair]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

I'm liking the idea of Urban Druid for the SADNness and class skills. Not for nothing, the campaign takes place in one giant city, so the flavor definitely fits. However, it seems like most druid-based feats don't work with urban shape / urban companion by RAW, so we don't even get the auto-selection of Natural Spell, or maybe Natural Bond.

I'm debating on the merits of adding Silent / Still / Eschew Materials / Easy Metamagic (Silent) / Invisible Spell to be able to cast secretly while in Object form, but that seems a bit gimmicky-- and won't be useful until level 12 when object form comes online

I'm also considering some sort of sneak attack optimization, given Urban Druid can use Dark Stalker (the creature) to get Sneak Attack, complete with Urban Companion for a flanking buddy, as we don't have anyone using precision damage currently. Urban Druid's Tumble bonus would be nice there, although given it's not a class skill, it'll still be a little dicey...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Druid does need a decent Con score because your form's Con score doesn't change your HP since the PHB errata that turned Wild Shape into an Alternate Form ability.

I'm honestly not impressed with the Urban Druid. They don't get any additional spells from any splatbooks unless your DM wants to go to the trouble of looking for fitting spells to add. They don't benefit from any wild shape enhancing feats or items unless your DM house rules it. They don't benefit from any animal companion specific feats or abilities without house rules. They don't even get summon nature's ally, which has some absurdly good feats and items to improve it. Given the campaign is in a city, this class will have its advantages, but I don't see it being anywhere near as good as a standard Druid.

I'd recommend instead going with any Elf race (or anything else that gets the needed proficiencies), Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant 10. I recommend Arctic Elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#arcticElves) to avoid the Con penalty, plus they don't get a Cha penalty like Snow Elf. Use the Otyugh Hole to get the Iron Will prerequisite, and take Practiced Spellcaster for SA. Your companion familiar counts your SA levels toward the familiar benefits despite the class not granting a familiar. You can even trade out some class skills (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) for more city-appropriate ones like Tumble, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. But keep Knowledge: Nature, that shows the character has knowledge of a given animal they may want to wild shape into (DC is 10 + HD of the form).

[Hiro Quester]

You might follow Eggynack's advice (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pooxPkI-orXC8MaSH7pzJ7D44oOQYwz4JIS6nseML38/edit#heading=h.61nv22e0x3c8) about the alternative wildshape to your MMF colleague. While he takes the way of the bear (big and tough, melee focussed wildshape) you take the way of the bat (casting is your main method of solving problems, and you fly in Desmodu hunting bat wildshape above the fray, controlling the battlefield).

[Falontani]

I'm honestly not impressed with the Urban Druid. Given the campaign is in a city, this class will have its advantages, but I don't see it being anywhere near as good as a standard Druid.


A bunch of snipping later;

The main point of Urban Druid here is to be somewhat different, and not be as powerful a druid you can be. That said it is easy to fix the problems you listed if the DM is willing.

1. Urban Companion counts as an Animal Companion for all feats and class abilities, but is separate if you happen to have the Animal Companion class feature.
2. Urban Shape counts as Wild Shape for all feats and class abilities, but is a separate and distinct pool from Wild Shape.

3. (i am working on it)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A bunch of snipping later;

The main point of Urban Druid here is to be somewhat different, and not be as powerful a druid you can be. That said it is easy to fix the problems you listed if the DM is willing.

1. Urban Companion counts as an Animal Companion for all feats and class abilities, but is separate if you happen to have the Animal Companion class feature.
2. Urban Shape counts as Wild Shape for all feats and class abilities, but is a separate and distinct pool from Wild Shape.

3. (i am working on it)

I have two big complains about the Urban Druid:

1. It lacks any decent combat forms from Urban Shape. The Dark Stalker in FF is decent at the lower levels, but very quickly loses effectiveness. The Flind in MM3 has decent physical stats and natural armor but again isn't very effective without Power Attack shenanigans. Forms from the urban companion list are rather weak apart from the monstrous scorpions, which could start to feel rather bland if it's all you ever use.

The solution here is to check splatbooks that add more animal companion options, and add any city-appropriate ones to the urban companion list, which also expands the urban shape list. Allow Magebred versions of animals for both. You should be able to add Warbeast to your urban companion to make it a little better, and take Wild Cohort to designate the same creature for yet more benefits.

2. It lacks the strong crowd control spells of a standard Druid. The Urban Druid's spell list has a few walls and clouds and a bunch of enchantments, Transmute Rock/Mud, and Reverse Gravity, along with the amazing Shrink Item which depends on creativity. It does get a whole lot of versatility in its spells, but it's still quite lacking. Standard Druid gets things like Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, Wall of Smoke, Wall of Thorns, Call Avalanche, etc. plus tons and tons of amazing buffs, even Mass Snake's Swiftness for your party and any burly animals you've summoned. Speaking of which, it's severely lacking in any minion magic apart from Animate Objects. Plus a Druid can use Bone Talisman to get an equivalent-level Turn Undead use from a 2nd level spell slot, and Moon Bolt is great against undead.

Of course the class needs additional spells added to the class list. I think it needs some illusion spells as well, maybe even add the entire Beguiler class spell list to what you can cast from this. I'd even consider giving it the Spirit Shaman's retrieved spells and spontaneous casting mechanics for added versatility. Probably the easiest solution is to give it the whole Beguiler class spell list, then say that at every class level gained you can add one Druid spell of a level one lower than the highest you can cast to your character's class list.


However, I still say the Druid 8/ Suel Arcanamach 2/ Arcane Hierophant 10 is worth a shot. I came up with that build quite a long time ago and I'll likely never get a chance to play it, but it's one of my favorites.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Warshaper is actually good enough that even without casting, it's still about even with straight Druid.

Would they be interested in playing a Shifter (essentially a lycanthrope-lite)? Not very charismatic, but would help w/ the melee stuff. And Moonspeaker is a Shifter-only Druid PrC that's really good.

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm a fan of Daggerspell Shaper. Two levels gets you the nifty daggerclaws ability. Couple that with the players desire to go high CHA and a set of stunning daggers would make an effective lock down build.