Witch in 3.5

[Trandir]

There is a witch class in pathfinder 1e. Is there anything similar in 3.5?

[Doctor Despair]

I'm not sure how the Pathfinder version works, but 3.5 has the Dread Witch, a fear-based PrC

[Kurald Galain]

Closest I can think of is the Eldritch Theurge prestige class.

[CharonsHelper]

Not really. But the Pathfinder witch class should be totally compatible with 3.5 if you can convince your DM. And while I think that the witch is a lot of fun, it's substantially weaker in power than a wizard. Just promise your DM not to take the Slumber hex (which does get a bit annoying - I know that I avoided taking it for my witch) and I would assume they wouldn't have an issue.

[Trandir]

I'm not sure how the Pathfinder version works, but 3.5 has the Dread Witch, a fear-based PrC

Imagine a wizard but your spellbook is your familiar and instead of feats at 1st and every even level you get a hex. Those can be anything from living hair, cooking people and turning then into cookies to animating a house giving it chicken legs.


Not really. But the Pathfinder witch class should be totally compatible with 3.5 if you can convince your DM. And while I think that the witch is a lot of fun, it's substantially weaker in power than a wizard. Just promise your DM not to take the Slumber hex (which does get a bit annoying - I know that I avoided taking it for my witch) and I would assume they wouldn't have an issue.

I am the DM and one of my players got in the PF1e wiki looking for classes. And why is it weaker than wizard exactly?

[CharonsHelper]

I am the DM and one of my players got in the PF1e wiki looking for classes. And why is it weaker than wizard exactly?

The spell list isn't as good. It gets a few healing spells and a few other normally divine ones, but it loses out on a LOT of the wizard's most powerful stuff, and a lot of the best personal/defensive spells such as mirror image.

The witch is much moreso solidly in a support role. The only thing I might do is ban or nerf the Slumber hex. (A good houserule I've seen is to have it work up to HD equal to the witch's current level.)

Edit: Well, that and lower it to d4 HD to match the 3.5 wizard. It has d6 HD in Pathfinder, but so do the wizard & sorcerer.

[Kurald Galain]

And why is it weaker than wizard exactly?
The class is built on the idea that wizards run out of spells (so the witch has something to do when out of spells), but in most campaigns they actually don't. Meaning that infinite-use hexes are not nearly as great as they sound.

That and a weaker spell list.

[Gnaeus]

Weaker in playground sense. Higher floor, lower ceiling.

Misfortune, for example, is a non mind affecting will save or suck, which reduces most things that rely on attack rolls to near uselessness while softening them up for further debuffs. It is at will available at level 1. Doesn’t provoke aoo. Bypasses SR, which also means it can hit pretty much anything but swarms, including magic resistant stuff like golems. Can be used in silence, or a grapple, with your components taken away.

Healing, for another example, is one cure light wounds/target/day (eventually leveling up to cure moderate). So if you think CLW is useless, automatically done at level 2+ with an unending supply of cure wands, it sucks. If CLW is actually a spell your cleric or Druid might cast, having 4-8 CLWs a day + functionality endless touch attacks on undead and essentially free healing for NPCs is tough to copy for most classes.

A human support witch could easily have both (+cackle) at level 1 + his normal complement of spells.

[AvatarVecna]

There is a witch class in pathfinder 1e. Is there anything similar in 3.5?

The closest you'd see to functioning like the Witch in 3.5 (that is, full spellcasting, but also these weird at-will abilities and a familiar) is some weird wizard/warlock theurge build probably. Bonus points, it's almost certainly worse than straight wizard, so that's keeping faithful to the PF source inspiration. :smalltongue:

If you're just wondering if 3.5 has a base class called the Witch, the answer is sort of! DMG pg 175 sort-of details a theoretical Witch class, complete with a class spell list.

[Psyren]

I am the DM and one of my players got in the PF1e wiki looking for classes. And why is it weaker than wizard exactly?


The class is built on the idea that wizards run out of spells (so the witch has something to do when out of spells), but in most campaigns they actually don't. Meaning that infinite-use hexes are not nearly as great as they sound.

That and a weaker spell list.

The Witch spell list is indeed weaker than Wizard, but given that Wizard has the strongest spell list in the entire game that's not actually saying much. Witch is still T1 and is still one of the most powerful classes in PF with a ton of support over the years.

As for hexes, their true strength is not being infinite-use, but being supernatural and thus useful on a lot of monsters where spells would be a pain. Several of them are also suck-even-if-you-save.

[CharonsHelper]

Weaker in playground sense. Higher floor, lower ceiling.


Sure - but if the witch is playing anywhere close to the floor, you don't have to worry about them outshining the rest of the group - which is what a GM would likely be worried about bringing in a non-3.5 class.

Frankly - the more pure support classes have less issue with being OP anyway. It's one reason I really like to play classes such as bards & witches. I'm an unabased optimizer, while most of the people I play with aren't, and I don't want to be "that guy". But I can optimize the sh** out of a support class, and nobody cares. I'm not outshining them - I'm making them better.

[Trandir]

Sure - but if the witch is playing anywhere close to the floor, you don't have to worry about them outshining the rest of the group - which is what a GM would likely be worried about bringing in a non-3.5 class.

Frankly - the more pure support classes have less issue with being OP anyway. It's one reason I really like to play classes such as bards & witches. I'm an unabased optimizer, while most of the people I play with aren't, and I don't want to be "that guy". But I can optimize the sh** out of a support class, and nobody cares. I'm not outshining them - I'm making them better.

Well the current party is: a warlock, a wizard and two other players

Those two want to change PC, one with a witch apparently and the other is still lost in the countless options, but before he was playijg a binder.

I feel like this is the party where the mink and rogue can outshine everyone since no one really optimize their PC.

[CharonsHelper]

Well the current party is: a warlock, a wizard and two other players

Those two want to change PC, one with a witch apparently and the other is still lost in the countless options, but before he was playijg a binder.

I feel like this is the party where the mink and rogue can outshine everyone since no one really optimize their PC.

Lol - that party might have a tough time then, especially at low levels if everyone is pretty squishy.

[Kurald Galain]

The floor for a witch, and I've seen several witches played this way, is spamming Evil Eye each round, every round (and maybe use the healing hex after combat). A witch played solely in that fashion is tier 4 or 5, really.

So if your build is to largely forget about spells and spam hexes instead, you're not going to be that effective (except slumber, but that's frowned upon). Conversely, if your build is to largely forget about hexes and cast spells instead, then wizard and arcanist are obviously a better pick. So what you should do for a witch is mix the two, and that's not as easy as it sounds.

[Gnaeus]

Sure - but if the witch is playing anywhere close to the floor, you don't have to worry about them outshining the rest of the group - which is what a GM would likely be worried about bringing in a non-3.5 class.

Frankly - the more pure support classes have less issue with being OP anyway. It's one reason I really like to play classes such as bards & witches. I'm an unabased optimizer, while most of the people I play with aren't, and I don't want to be "that guy". But I can optimize the sh** out of a support class, and nobody cares. I'm not outshining them - I'm making them better.

Also untrue. A class that can disable one enemy per round every combat all day and outheal the cleric while saving my spells known for edge cases can pretty easily make a wizard with 4 spells known look pretty bad. And that’s assuming you restrict slumber. I won a cheesegrinder tournament with a witch. 14 hours of non stop combat with optimized opponents with CRs 2-3 above the party and no rest.

Admittedly, they mostly outshine the wizard and cleric at lowest levels where those classes are weakest and spell conservation is a real problem. But in an actual mid level game where powerhouse spells like planar binding and polymorph are banned, nerfed or gentlemen’s agreemented, where the party Paladin and cleric dropped a hard line on the zombie army and the wizard isn’t astrally projecting from a pocket plane, the Witch’s “weaker spell list” doesn’t look so bad either, and it’s just one more tier one caster with a spell for every occasion that just doesn’t care about long days or magic immunity.

The floor for a witch, and I've seen several witches played this way, is spamming Evil Eye each round, every round (and maybe use the healing hex after combat). A witch played solely in that fashion is tier 4 or 5, really..
Compared with what? A poorly played blaster wizard who casts 4 magic missiles at 1d4+1 and then uses a light crossbow? Who can’t heal and wishes he had at will debuffs? Or a cleric healbot? Witch kicks the snot out of them. You see, it’s the worst play. That’s why it’s called the floor. A badly played wizard can’t affect a golem at all.

And evil eye is an amazing hex by the way. Because it essentially has no save unless you are using it against something with mettle. Fighting a boss with great saves and the fighter is whiffing away? Evil eye to lower his AC or make the SOL land.

[Kurald Galain]

Compared with what? A poorly played blaster wizard who casts 4 magic missiles at 1d4+1 and then uses a light crossbow?
For instance yeah. Poorly played wizard is also very low tier. But two Magic Missiles will drop a goblin whereas two Evil Eyes will not; and at higher level the poorly played blaster gets Fireballs and the poorly played witch is still using Evil Eye every single round. Not that fireballs are so great, but a straightforward blaster is clearly better in most cases than an always-evil-eye witch.

Claiming that the poorly-played witch is somehow better than the poorly-played wizard, well that's a pretty hard case to make.

And bear in mind that Pathfinder has infinite-use cantrips for your wizard, and Channel for your cleric.

[Gnaeus]

For instance yeah. Poorly played wizard is also very low tier. But two Magic Missiles will drop a goblin whereas two Evil Eyes will not; and at higher level the poorly played blaster gets Fireballs and the poorly played witch is still using Evil Eye every single round. Not that fireballs are so great, but a straightforward blaster is clearly better in most cases than an always-evil-eye witch.

Claiming that the poorly-played witch is somehow better than the poorly-played wizard, well that's a pretty hard case to make.

And bear in mind that Pathfinder has infinite-use cantrips for your wizard, and Channel for your cleric.

But 2 evil eyes will seriously impact the goblin chief and 2 magic missiles will not. And at higher level the fireball is bouncing off the enemy demon and misfortune and evil eye are working as intended.

I guess if your idea of a class’s floor is unplayably stupid then both are attacking people with clubs and are terrible. If they are always using the same low op tactic without regard for circumstances then I would MUCH rather have the witch Spamming evil eye than the wizard fireballing the room he and all his teammates are standing in, because that’s the same level of dumb. You do know that the witch can follow the exact same reasoning as the wizard and spam lightning bolt, doing the exact same Xd6, and then when he faces something that clearly isn’t working on break out a misfortune or evil eye.

A witch picking powers and spells that sound useful, without understanding needs like planning your spell selection around things like SR no spells, and using those powers in ways that seem to make sense, in other words a well meaning non stupid person with low system mastery, is better than a wizard with those same conditions. Wizard only actually exceeds witch in a high op environment where spells like planar binding are both exploitable and exploited.

Hexes are far better than cantrips. And the question wasn’t how do witches compare with other classes in pf, it was how do they compare with classes in 3.5.

[CharonsHelper]

So what you should do for a witch is mix the two, and that's not as easy as it sounds.

Which, IMO, is part of what made playing one fun for me. I mostly aimed for the longer duration buff spells and then used hexes most of the time in combat along with the occasional Glitterdust/Web style debuff, while keeping a few nice niche spells in reserve.

And I do think that the power of Misfortune/Cackle to permanently save/suck is overstated, at least against intelligent foes. The range of both hexes is only 30ft, and the witch can't move if they want to use Cackle as a move action and do something else. The foe can simply back off a bit and the Misfortune will wear off. Still an effective combo, but not THAT good.

[Gnaeus]

And I do think that the power of Misfortune/Cackle to permanently save/suck is overstated, at least against intelligent foes. The range of both hexes is only 30ft, and the witch can't move if they want to use Cackle as a move action and do something else. The foe can simply back off a bit and the Misfortune will wear off. Still an effective combo, but not THAT good.

I rarely find that problematic. By the time intelligent creatures with high enough knowledge skills that they can reasonably know the duration and range of your hexes are a common problem, it’s not hard to work around it. A flying carpet works best, but really the point of misfortune is to stymie things that make attack rolls. If they are retreating, they aren’t full attacking. If they are important enough that you want to follow them to maintain it, you can. And if they aren’t they probably wasted two rounds leaving and returning (assuming no AOOs or control to prevent. It isn’t like you don’t have a list full of battlefield control spells). And of course misfortune at higher levels lingers for another round or two after they leave.

[Trandir]

Lol - that party might have a tough time then, especially at low levels if everyone is pretty squishy.

They are all 4th level now going for 5th. Not sure if you stop being low level before 10th level tho

[Thurbane]

There is a Witch "class" in the DMG, which is bascially just an alternate spell list for Sorcerer.

In name only, there are some PrCs: Dread Witch, Rimefire Witch and Sea Witch.


Imagine a wizard but your spellbook is your familiar and instead of feats at 1st and every even level you get a hex. Those can be anything from living hair, cooking people and turning then into cookies to animating a house giving it chicken legs.

Well, not ideal, but Sha'ir (or Spirit Shaman) + Hexer PrC?

[rel]

A witch is an arcane caster with a few divine spells and unlimited debuffs. There are a few ways to make this happen in 3.5:

Theurge
Take wizard and druid, early entry into mystic theurge, go theurge 10 then start taking levels of arcane heirophant.
You have arcane casting. you have divine casting. you don't have at will debuffs but you have a LOT of spells. enough that you can generally throw a debuff spell every round if you want to.

Held in Reserve
Take wizard, take arcane disciple, take a bunch of reserve feats.
you have arcane casting with a bit of divine, you have at will debuffs and heals through your reserve feats.

UMD
take wizard (or artificer if you don't mind being a bit less witchy), max UMD, take the wand buffing feats and wand adept.
You cast arcane spells as a wizard. you replicate your divine spells with items and your at will debuffs by spamming wands.

you could probably do something with dragonfire adept or warlock and wizard as well.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The closest you'd see to functioning like the Witch in 3.5 (that is, full spellcasting, but also these weird at-will abilities and a familiar) is some weird wizard/warlock theurge build probably.

Sha'ir/Warlock with Precocious Apprentice can be a solid build.

Starting at level 5:
Sha'ir 2/ Warlock 1/ Mystic Theurge 2
or
Sha'ir 1/ Warlock 2/ Mystic Theurge 2

Warlock can't qualify you for Mystic Theurge, but it can be progressed by it. Since Sha'ir cast both arcane and divine spells, they can qualify you for MT without another spellcasting class. Take the Precocious Apprentice feat at 1st level (gives you a single 2nd level spell known and spell slot), pick one of the spells a Sha'ir can cast as either divine or arcane, and you've met the spellcasting prerequisite. Between Warlock and Sha'ir, you've also got both the class skills you need for the skill prerequisite.

The first build 'casts' like a Sha'ir 4/ Warlock 3, the second build like a Sha'ir 3/ Warlock 4.

Nearly full spellcasting as well as nearly full invocations (at-will abilities). Both builds are ready to enter Eldritch Theurge (the Warlock/[arcane] specific theurge PrC, complete with actual class features!) next level. They might be a bit strong for a low-op group; the second build is a little bit weaker, if that helps.

[Morty_Jhones]

the addept in the DMG p107 is D&D's vershion of the vilage witch.

its not a bad class but it is delibratly underpowered

You get a very narow spells list but get to pick from both arcane and devine magic.

Your an devine caster who cast using wis, but spell progeshion is Slow.

you get a wide option of skills but **** all skill points.

in all you would be better of being a wizard or a sorc and just calling yourself witch.

[weckar]

Isn't there a sorcerer class variant called Witch?