Why hasn't Redcloak destroyed Xykon's phylactery?

[Gitman00]

Some of the discussion in the main thread for 1216 got me thinking: Why hasn't Redcloak already destroyed Xykon's phylactery?* The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual, but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?

* Yes, it's possible he destroyed it off-panel, but there has been no indication of that, and it seems like the author would have given us some foreshadowing, so it seems unlikely.

[Fyraltari]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

[Morty]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

It would also likely take some time, increasing the odds of Xykon or someone else noticing that he's doing it.

[Dion]

I don’t think we know what he’s done with with the phylactory.

He had a lot of off screen time and many resources in Goobotopia to prepare for the day when it was found. We don’t know what he did with that time.

[Gitman00]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

I thought of that, but if the decoy phylactery is any indication, he cast most if not all of them himself, so he would be able to dismiss them at will.

[BloodSquirrel]

Some of the discussion in the main thread for 1216 got me thinking: Why hasn't Redcloak already destroyed Xykon's phylactery?* The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual, but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?


Redcloak most likely thinks (and is wrong) that he can blackmail Xykon with the location of his real phylactery.

Taking the phylactery as part of plan to destroy Xykon really doesn't make any sense. Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon, and given that Redcloak is willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to complete The Plan, I don't think that contingency plans that involve giving up on The Plan are very high on Redcloak's list of priorities. And once the ritual is complete, Redcloak is going to be facing an enraged Xykon, and destroying his phylactery isn't going to stop Xykon from killing him right then and there.


Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction. Way back in SoD when Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery Xykon wasn't phased in the slightest.] When it got lost in the sewer, Xykon completely lost his ****.

Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now.

[Theshipening]

I thought of that, but if the decoy phylactery is any indication, he cast most if not all of them himself, so he would be able to dismiss them at will.

Redcloak only needed to cast enough spells on it to fool Xykon. That way if he tries to hit it or scry on it, he’ll see it’s protected, and he likely won’t hit it hard enough to see that it’s not as resistant as before.

Plus, maybe Xykon would feel it in his bones if his phylactery was destroyed, which isn’t a risk Redcloak is willing to take. He’ll have all the time in the world to destroy the phylactery once Xykon is dead, as long as he smashes the regenerating bits (or just drop it in a volcano or smth.)

[understatement]

Redcloak most likely thinks (and is wrong) that he can blackmail Xykon with the location of his real phylactery.

Taking the phylactery as part of plan to destroy Xykon really doesn't make any sense. Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon, and given that Redcloak is willing to risk the destruction of the entire world to complete The Plan, I don't think that contingency plans that involve giving up on The Plan are very high on Redcloak's list of priorities. And once the ritual is complete, Redcloak is going to be facing an enraged Xykon, and destroying his phylactery isn't going to stop Xykon from killing him right then and there.


Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction. Way back in SoD when Redcloak threatened to destroy his phylactery Xykon wasn't phased in the slightest.] When it got lost in the sewer, Xykon completely lost his ****.

Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now.

Redcloak pretty clearly says that


he expects his god to take care of Xykon when the time comes.


Now, the chance that Xykon doesn't catch on the true goal of the Plan is astronomically low, but Redcloak's purpose in securing the phylactery was so that he could destroy it after Xykon is destroyed, which would (in his mind) happen after the Plan is reached. Obviously not going to happen, but that's another topic.

[BloodSquirrel]

Redcloak pretty clearly says that


he expects his god to take care of Xykon when the time comes.



Redcloak just says that Xykon is "not strong enough to challenge our god" and then says that they can offer him a cushy retirement in their new nation. In other words, he isn't expecting TDO to smite Xykon the moment the ritual is complete. This was also before Xykon was a lich.

So it's pretty clear that Redcloak's position is "Once the ritual is complete, it'll be too late for Xykon to stop the plan, even if he kills me."

[KorvinStarmast]

Until the ritual is complete, Redcloak needs Xykon That is reason number one, agreed.
Redcloak swapped out the phylactery because he needs a means to control Xykon, not to destroy him. I don't think it's the smartest move, but then again, I think that Redcloak's judgment regarding pretty much everything above the tactical level has been critically compromised for a long time now. He thinks it will give him leverage. And I think you may be correct in him overselling, to himself, how much leverage that will offer him.

[understatement]

Redcloak just says that Xykon is "not strong enough to challenge our god" and then says that they can offer him a cushy retirement in their new nation. In other words, he isn't expecting TDO to smite Xykon the moment the ritual is complete. This was also before Xykon was a lich.

So it's pretty clear that Redcloak's position is "Once the ritual is complete, it'll be too late for Xykon to stop the plan, even if he kills me."

I daresay that after what happened in SOD Redcloak will just ask his god to kill Xykon. God vs lich is still the same result as god vs mortal.

And well...yes. Redcloak doesn't expect himself to live. 1212 pretty much shows that Redcloak's willing to let the whole planet blow -- including himself -- to get what he wants. Death is not an issue for him.

[BloodSquirrel]

I daresay that after what happened in SOD Redcloak will just ask his god to kill Xykon. God vs lich is still the same result as god vs mortal.


Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

And the point with Xykon being a lich is that he was more likely back then to give Redcloak a moment to negotiate after finding out he'd been had. Now there's no question about it- he's going to kill Redcloak.

[Roland Itiative]

I think the idea that Xykon would magically be aware of his phylactery's destruction is the most likely one. Assuming that's the way that phylacteries work in OotS, Redcloak just can't do anything to it while Xykon is still "on his side".

Once the Ritual is complete, he can try to destroy Xykon using whatever means he has on hand, and then safely dispose of the phylactery before he can regenerate. If he handed the phylactery to Xykon, this second step would be made extremely harder.

Sure, Redcloak beating Xykon on a straight up fight is a very unlikely scenario, so having the phylactery is most likely useless to him, but it's still a contingency plan he has in place.

[understatement]

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

And the point with Xykon being a lich is that he was more likely back then to give Redcloak a moment to negotiate after finding out he'd been had. Now there's no question about it- he's going to kill Redcloak.

Chance to negotiate what? When Xykon was a human, Redcloak (and his brother, before the fallout) were willing to give Xykon a nice parcel of land for him to lord over since Xykon was a) about to die, and b) easier to work with. When Xykon finds out he's been lied to for over 3 decades on a plan he died for, the only negotation is going to come whether he'll torture Redcloak first or just bind his soul.

ETA: I'll grant that Human Xykon wouldn't react that badly, since he hadn't died for it yet. But Redcloak's planned endgame has been the same - if Xykon tried to do stuff afterwards, the Dark One would take care of it. The actual chance of that working is near 0%, of course, but that's how he's played it for 30 years or so.

And yes, there is explicitly a spell that allows a god to intervene on the mortal plane: Miracle. Also, the Dark One doesn't play by the other gods' rules, and once he (believes) has the Snarl in his pocket he'll definitely start pushing the envelope on those rules. The issue's not if the TDO can interfere (the ritual pretty much guarantees some sort of mortal-divine transfer), it's whether he would or not. Which is also another topic.

[BloodSquirrel]

Chance to negotiate what? When Xykon was a human, Redcloak (and his brother, before the fallout) were willing to give Xykon a nice parcel of land for him to lord over since Xykon was a) about to die, and b) easier to work with.

Uh... yeah... that's the point. Negotiating with Xykon was more of an option when he was mortal.



When Xykon finds out he's been lied to for over 3 decades on a plan he died for,

I can see that this is in the process of becoming a meme. Let's set the record straight: Xykon doesn't regret becoming a lich. At all. He got pissed off that he couldn't taste coffee, but since then he's made it clear, on multiple occasions, including his "anything to avoid the fire down below" speech to V, that he considers it a step up in the world. After all, he'd be dead from old age by now if not for becoming undead.



And yes, there is explicitly a spell that allows a god to intervene on the mortal plane: Miracle. Also, the Dark One doesn't play by the other gods' rules, and once he (believes) has the Snarl in his pocket he'll definitely start pushing the envelope on those rules. The issue's not if the TDO can interfere (the ritual pretty much guarantees some sort of mortal-divine transfer), it's whether he would or not. Which is also another topic.

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

[Jason]

The only reason to keep it around would be in case Xykon gets killed and Redcloak still needs him for the ritual...
I think you answered your own question. As a contingency if the heroes manage to destroy Xykon, which has already happened once.


...but if Xykon is killed, he'll discover Redcloak's treachery the moment he doesn't regenerate in his astral fortress, and Redcloak will have to destroy it anyway. I can't see him talking Xykon out of killing him. Thoughts?
Well, Xykon won't be able to kill him until he regenerates enough body parts, so Redcloak will have some time to talk. Maybe he'll be able to come up with some plausible explanation for why he has the phylactery.

Or, alternately, Redcloak could be saving the phylactery for revenge purposes. He could be looking forward to the idea of seeing Xykon's body destroyed after the gate is shifted to the Dark One's control and then explaining to Xykon exactly how he, Redcloak, has manipulated him from the beginning while Xykon is helpless in the phylactery, and then destroying it.

[Lex]

I think using the phylactery as a bargain chip in case Xykon decides to kill him is the most likely explanation, but there Is still the flaw that Redcloack has to first convince Xykon that he in fact has the real phylactery and he is not bluffing.


Or, alternately, Redcloak could be saving the phylactery for revenge purposes. He could be looking forward to the idea of seeing Xykon's body destroyed after the gate is shifted to the Dark One's control and then explaining to Xykon exactly how he, Redcloak, has manipulated him from the beginning while Xykon is helpless in the phylactery, and then destroying it.This is also a realistic possibility.

[Lexible]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

In 3.5 spellcasters are generally able to dismiss their own spells at will.

[understatement]

Uh... yeah... that's the point. Negotiating with Xykon was more of an option when he was mortal.

Yeah, halfway through I realized what I was typing, but...since I already reached halfway, might as well finish it. (Yes, ironic sunk-cost fallacy shining through, etc etc).


I can see that this is in the process of becoming a meme. Let's set the record straight: Xykon doesn't regret becoming a lich. At all. He got pissed off that he couldn't taste coffee, but since then he's made it clear, on multiple occasions, including his "anything to avoid the fire down below" speech to V, that he considers it a step up in the world. After all, he'd be dead from old age by now if not for becoming undead.


Redcloak explicitly saying "You will have gone through this change for nothing" is what saves his ass, and probably the one time he actually talks Xykon out of something that Xykon wants to do.

Yeah, Xykon prefers being undead over dead, but him being a lich in the first place is a huge-enough bone of contention. He can still prefer to be a lich and still be majorly pissed off at the fact that it really was for nothing.



TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

What's the point here? Obviously the Dark One doesn't have to come down; only that he can interfere, in the same way a ritual or Miracle would allow him to inferfere. I don't expect him to do anything either, but the ritual would very likely give him more power on the mortal plane, even if for a little bit.

[Metastachydium]

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork. The ritual- just like Miracle and all other divine spells- allows a cleric to invoke their god's power in some specific, bounded way. There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway. Especially when he'll probably be a tad busy dealing with the dive hornet's nest that they'll have just kicked by moving the gate.

1. He does not play by the rules. „We don't talk about the Snarl in front of mortals” is one of the core rules, and he keeps breaking it whenever a new high priest of his is ordained. It is true he did not go any farther than that thus far, but the reason for that might just be that he would really rather not draw more unwanted attention on his dealings than absolutely necessary.
2. It is, however, true that once the Ritual is completed, Xykon becomes irrelevant as far as Big Purple is concerned. Which does indeed raise some questions regarding Redcloak's motivation for stealing the phylactery. I would not assume that he intends to blackmail Xykon with it. He tried to do that before and it failed, though. Redcloak is not quite as dumb as that.

[homersolo]

The thing is buried under an obscene amount of protection spells. I don’t think Redcloak could destroy it without expanding a lot of spells and then he’d have to explain to Xykon why he’s not as powerful as usual during their exploration of the day.

It has probably been guessed before, but my guess is that at the end of this, the snarl destroys the phylactery (sp?). It is super powerful, it wouldn't take any spells to do so, and no reader would question that the snarl has the power to destroy it.

There we go. Called the shot. Let's see if it proves true in 4 years.

[denthor]

Simple answer.

That is how you kill a lich no coming back from that.

[hroþila]

My interpretation is that this is not about Redcloak being rational.

Redcloak did the switcheroo mostly to appease his own conscience, so he can lie to himself about how he's working against Xykon and how he's actually pulling the strings (which he isn't). Or perhaps it's his way to make sure he will do the right thing when/if the opportunity arises and Xykon is destroyed, because if that happens Xykon will immediately know that Redcloak has betrayed him and he'll have no choice but to destroy the phylactery for real. In any case, I think he sees destroying the phylactery as being too "final" an action. Like that would be fully committing to the destruction of Xykon, which is not something he can do at the moment for psychological reasons. So he's happy to continue existing in that limbo where he doesn't need to make up his mind, make another decision or face his past ones, at least for the time being. This isn't rational because, again, the switcheroo means he won't have a choice anymore if Xykon does get destroyed and he starts regenerating in his real phylactery, but I think it works.

This is just my headcanon but hey.

[Thales]

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

Why would that be the case for the Dark One? TDO evidently has little loyalty to the gods, and while he might be afraid that all the gods would gang up to destroy him if he broke the sort of rule that can create a Snarl, once the Plan is complete and he has a weapon that can threaten them, why not step in directly to save his high priest?

[Jason]

Why would that be the case for the Dark One? TDO evidently has little loyalty to the gods, and while he might be afraid that all the gods would gang up to destroy him if he broke the sort of rule that can create a Snarl, once the Plan is complete and he has a weapon that can threaten them, why not step in directly to save his high priest?
How about because he's evil, he's never spoken directly to his high priest, and once he has what he wants he doesn't really care what happens to Redcloak?

[Quartz]

Simple answer.

That is how you kill a lich no coming back from that.


AIUI it's not quite as simple as that: after destroying the phylactery you still have to kill the lich. Destroying the phylactery means that there is no safe haven for the lich's soul. And maybe the lich can create another phylactery.

[Thales]

How about because he's evil, he's never spoken directly to his high priest, and once he has what he wants he doesn't really care what happens to Redcloak?

We really don't have good evidence to suggest that he doesn't care about Redcloak except as a means to an end. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were not the case. That Redcloak has never directly communicated with the Dark One is some evidence in that direction, but it's far from dispositive — Durkon is critical to Thor's plans, Thor clearly cares about Durkon's welfare, and yet the only reason they were able to speak was because Durkon died, which Redcloak has not. Indeed, our one case of direct communication from the Dark One is him talking to Jirix after Jirix died. Even at the Godsmoot, we didn't see communication between the gods and the mortals, just the gods communicating amongst themselves in a manner that happened to be visible to mortals.

[Jason]

We really don't have good evidence to suggest that he doesn't care about Redcloak except as a means to an end. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it were not the case. That Redcloak has never directly communicated with the Dark One is some evidence in that direction, but it's far from dispositive — Durkon is critical to Thor's plans, Thor clearly cares about Durkon's welfare, and yet the only reason they were able to speak was because Durkon died, which Redcloak has not. Indeed, our one case of direct communication from the Dark One is him talking to Jirix after Jirix died. Even at the Godsmoot, we didn't see communication between the gods and the mortals, just the gods communicating amongst themselves in a manner that happened to be visible to mortals.
It's an open question, isn't It? We'll just have to wait until the Dark One actually appears in person on-panel, which he hasn't to this point, in order to see what kind of god he really is.

And a correction: Jirix said he met the Dark One and had some messages to bring back. We don't know if there was an actual conversation or what was really said, just Jirix's second-hand report.

[Gitman00]

Also, if he destroys Xykon's phylactery, then Xykon can just make another one. He may even be able to sense the phylactery's destruction.

In theory yes, but SOD makes it clear he doesn't have the expertise. Redcloak was the one who created his phylactery.

[Jason]

In theory yes, but SOD makes it clear he doesn't have the expertise. Redcloak was the one who created his phylactery.
You mean he didn't have the expertise while he was alive...

The fact that he was very upset when it was lost is a good sign that he hasn't, in fact, created a backup.

[understatement]

You mean he didn't have the expertise while he was alive...

The fact that he was very upset when it was lost is a good sign that he hasn't, in fact, created a backup.

Isn't it a rule somewhere that liches can only have one phylactery at a time? (please correct me if I'm wrong). en

(Also, SRD tells me that liches are supposed to make their own phylactery, but apparently Redcloak made it for him.)

[Thales]

It's an open question, isn't It? We'll just have to wait until the Dark One actually appears in person on-panel, which he hasn't to this point, in order to see what kind of god he really is.
True. But I would guess that Redcloak at least thinks the Dark One cares about goblinoids.

And a correction: Jirix said he met the Dark One and had some messages to bring back. We don't know if there was an actual conversation or what was really said, just Jirix's second-hand report.
Narratively, while I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's miscommunication in relaying the Dark One's message (is the "this" that should not be screwed up the Plan, or Gobbotopia?), I would be shocked if Jirix where fabricating his exchange wholesale. That would be wildly out of character for Jirix, who seems to be a true believer in Redcloak and in the Dark One.

[Jason]

Isn't it a rule somewhere that liches can only have one phylactery at a time? (please correct me if I'm wrong). en

(Also, SRD tells me that liches are supposed to make their own phylactery, but apparently Redcloak made it for him.)
Libris Mortis states that a lich can have only one phylactery, and that if it is destroyed the lich cannot create a new one. And yes, it also says the lich must create its own phylactery.

[M1982]

Libris Mortis states that a lich can have only one phylactery, and that if it is destroyed the lich cannot create a new one. And yes, it also says the lich must create its own phylactery.

And then FR has it's super ancient super liches who devised epic spells to have multiple phylacteries at once. :smallsigh:

[Aetius]

Yeah... said result being "No, we can't do that, there are rules that prevent us from directly interfering."

TDO does, in fact, for the most part play by their rules, which is why he needs one of his clerics down on the mortal plane to do his legwork.

He has to because - like Greg at the godsmoot - these rules are protecting him too. Once the ritual is done and he has leverage it's a whole other story.
We don't know enough about the TDO to really predict what will happen then.


There's no reason to expect TDO to jump down to the mortal plane just to kill Xykon, who won't be a threat to his plan at that point anyway.


2. It is, however, true that once the Ritual is completed, Xykon becomes irrelevant as far as Big Purple is concerned.

Not really.
Xykon knows the plan is ultimately about furthering the case for goblinkind. The gates are just a means to that end.
What if Xykon takes revenge by trying to exterminate all goblinoids while making RCs bound soul watch? Which I would totally expect him to do.
Xykon is an epic lich and I don't see who can stop him from systematically exterminating the entire species. And extinction of all followers might be relevant to a god and make the plan rather pointless even if TDO has all the leverage he could ever want.

[Anymage]

D&D rules being inconsistent happens about as often as often as Rich deciding to toss the rules when they get in the way of a good story. So while D&D writers may make multi-phylactery liches to make it absolutely clear that they're plot devices and it may be theoretically possible for a lich in the stickverse to figure that out, odds are very much against Xykon having spares.

That, and in the end, the order will triumph and Xykon will be defeated. A hunt for horcruxesphylacteries this late in the game when they weren't really a topic beforehand would risk feeling too much like padding. I can't say for certain that it won't happen, but I find it very unlikely.


What if Xykon takes revenge by trying to exterminate all goblinoids while making RCs bound soul watch? Which I would totally expect him to do.
Xykon is an epic lich and I don't see who can stop him from systematically exterminating the entire species. And extinction of all followers might be relevant to a god and make the plan rather pointless even if TDO has all the leverage he could ever want.

If TDO actually pulls off his plan and can point the snarl portal at whoever, he'll have just angered a lot of gods who might well decide that he needs to be dealt with posthaste. He may smite Xykon at some point down the line, but he'll likely be occupied himself in the immediate aftermath of the ritual. If Xykon does decide to squish Redcloak right afterwards, RC is on his own.

[Metastachydium]

He has to because - like Greg at the godsmoot - these rules are protecting him too. Once the ritual is done and he has leverage it's a whole other story.
We don't know enough about the TDO to really predict what will happen then.

Not really. The rules of the Godsmoot protected Greg from the other high priests and the bodyguards. What protects gods from each other is the fear that their conflicts will produce new Snarls – hence all the overly detailed dumb god laws.
Big Purple with his unique quiddity does enjoy this kind of protection (there is no other god who can attack him without a risk) and more: some gods would like to keep him alive hoping he can help them seal the rifts. He does not have to follow the rules and indeed doesn't: granting a special artifact to his high priests that explains to them what the Snarl and the Gates are and how they work are strictly against the rules.


Not really.
Xykon knows the plan is ultimately about furthering the case for goblinkind. The gates are just a means to that end.
What if Xykon takes revenge by trying to exterminate all goblinoids while making RCs bound soul watch? Which I would totally expect him to do.
Xykon is an epic lich and I don't see who can stop him from systematically exterminating the entire species. And extinction of all followers might be relevant to a god and make the plan rather pointless even if TDO has all the leverage he could ever want.

Systematically exterminating a species takes quite the time, and we have no reason to believe Big Purple cannot stop the Bony Bastard if he really wants/has to do so. Even the dumb god laws allow for playing target practice with specific flying objects (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) or (under certain circumstances) unleashing incurable epidemics by the cartload (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html), and Big Purple is not bound by those laws.

[Jason]

I don't think Xykon would be interested in staying focused enough long enough to exterminate an entire species by himself. He would soon tire of the game and find something more diverting to do. Probably also involving killing things.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think Xykon would be interested in staying focused enough long enough to exterminate an entire species by himself. He would soon tire of the game and find something more diverting to do. Probably also involving killing things.

Well, yeah, that too.

[woweedd]

Why would he? Destroying the phylactery doesn't do anything to Xykon unless he's in it. So, wait for him to die, then smash the thing once he's trapped. Same result, no chance of him catching on with his godly Sense Motive and murdering you.

[Jason]

D&D rules being inconsistent happens about as often as often as Rich deciding to toss the rules when they get in the way of a good story. So while D&D writers may make multi-phylactery liches to make it absolutely clear that they're plot devices and it may be theoretically possible for a lich in the stickverse to figure that out, odds are very much against Xykon having spares.
I don't see the multi-phylactery liches as a rules inconsistency, more like "epic-scale magic can bend the rules, especially when it makes for a nifty adventure idea."

[Metastachydium]

Isn't it a rule somewhere that liches can only have one phylactery at a time? (please correct me if I'm wrong). en

(Also, SRD tells me that liches are supposed to make their own phylactery, but apparently Redcloak made it for him.)

Permit me to make that correction. Redcloak did not make the the phylactery for Xykon. See:
Redcloak (to Xykon): „You would need to build a special phylactery. (…) I can help you with that, though – there's no actual spellcasting involved.”
Redcloak (to Right-Eye): „I'll get started helping Xykon enchant the phylactery.”
[Emphases mine.]

[Lex]

Why would that be the case for the Dark One? TDO evidently has little loyalty to the gods, and while he might be afraid that all the gods would gang up to destroy him if he broke the sort of rule that can create a Snarl, once the Plan is complete and he has a weapon that can threaten them, why not step in directly to save his high priest?
If your big plan is to negotiate with someone, even if you have a superweapon to threaten them, showing yourself as untrustworthy isn't generally a good idea. And the Giant explicitly stated that the Dark One has to be somehow reasonable in his requests to the other gods, because he can only use the Snarl once.

[137beth]

My headcanon until we get evidence to the contrary is that Xykon would be able to sense if his phylactery was destroyed. I don't think that contradicts panel one of page 662 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html), because his phylactery being in the stomach of a monster wouldn't destroy it, it would just make it hard for him to regenerate.
Xykon's soul doesn't go to his phylactery unless his body is destroyed, so if Redcloak destroyed the phylactery now Xykon would be able to create a new one after killing Redcloak.

[Doug Lampert]

In 3.5 spellcasters are generally able to dismiss their own spells at will.

The general rule is that they cannot do so. The spell duration will have a (D) next to it for dismissible spells.

[Aetius]

Not really. The rules of the Godsmoot protected Greg from the other high priests and the bodyguards. What protects gods from each other is the fear that their conflicts will produce new Snarls – hence all the overly detailed dumb god laws.

The fear to produce a snarl is the reason why the gods follow the rules. Like not destroying other gods. So I still stand by my assessment that it's the rules protecting TDO. But you are correct that it's ultimately about the fear of a snarl.


He does not have to follow the rules and indeed doesn't: granting a special artifact to his high priests that explains to them what the Snarl and the Gates are and how they work are strictly against the rules.

It's against the rules to tell mortals about the gates and the snarl who don't already know about it. It's fair to assume that making an artifact that does impart that knowledge would be against the rules too, but we don't actually know that. Wouldn't be the first time a rather stupid loophole to circumvent the rules would exist.

But more importantly: We know Thor tried to destroy TDO after his ascension. So there was a period of time when TDO was a god but wasn't part of the divine establishment and neither the rules nor the fear of making a snarl protected him.
If he made the artifact back then it wouldn't matter it broke the rules and not destroying an artifact already in existance isn't necesserily against the rules.

After alle: TDO seems to stick to all the other rules. Even rather intricite ones like the domain agreement - judging by Redcloak using the standard cleric spell list. If he could simply ignore the rules one would expect him to get more involved in The Plan than he does.

It might be possible for him to get away with bending the rules more than other gods do because they try to avoid escalation. But I don't think he can ignore them alltogether.


I don't think Xykon would be interested in staying focused enough long enough to exterminate an entire species by himself. He would soon tire of the game and find something more diverting to do. Probably also involving killing things.

Xykon can be very determined if he want's to be. And wanting someone to get away with tricking you to waste decades , loose your life and continously risk your very existence for a phoney plan, might be a rather strong motivation.
Also: Xykon is an epic sorcerer. He doesn't have to stay focused for very long to do considerable damage to the goblinoid population. Some form of epic spell killing a quarter of a species in an instant aren't unherd of...


If your big plan is to negotiate with someone, even if you have a superweapon to threaten them, showing yourself as untrustworthy isn't generally a good idea.

True. But we don't know that TDO ever agreed to the rules of the gods or promised to follow them. So him breaking the rules doesn't show him as untrustworthy but simply confident enough not to be bullied into playing by someone else's rules. One reason more to negotiate a new set of rules that he too would feel bound by.

[Goblin_Priest]

Redcloak only needed to cast enough spells on it to fool Xykon. That way if he tries to hit it or scry on it, he’ll see it’s protected, and he likely won’t hit it hard enough to see that it’s not as resistant as before.

Plus, maybe Xykon would feel it in his bones if his phylactery was destroyed, which isn’t a risk Redcloak is willing to take. He’ll have all the time in the world to destroy the phylactery once Xykon is dead, as long as he smashes the regenerating bits (or just drop it in a volcano or smth.)

I believe it's canon that the rules concerning lichdom are not really clear. If there's a risk that Xykon "feels" it, or can otherwise use divination to check on its status, that's an unnecessary risk for Redcloak to take.


How about because he's evil, he's never spoken directly to his high priest, and once he has what he wants he doesn't really care what happens to Redcloak?

Even evil entities value their powerful assets. I really doubt that TDO doesn't give a rat's ass for Redcloak. He many not value him as a person, he may not have empathy for him, he may not treat him particularly well in the afterlife, none of this we can know, but he most likely is the most powerful asset TDO has in play.

[Metastachydium]

It's against the rules to tell mortals about the gates and the snarl who don't already know about it. It's fair to assume that making an artifact that does impart that knowledge would be against the rules too, but we don't actually know that. Wouldn't be the first time a rather stupid loophole to circumvent the rules would exist.

If there was a gaping hole of such magnitude in the rule that protects these sensitive pieces of knowledge, Big Purple would not have been the first to exploit them. Both Loki and Thor would have dispatched trustworthy assets to join the Order by now. Instead, Loki had to resort to a weird roundabout way of sending Hilgya to their aid.


But more importantly: We know Thor tried to destroy TDO after his ascension. So there was a period of time when TDO was a god but wasn't part of the divine establishment and neither the rules nor the fear of making a snarl protected him.
If he made the artifact back then it wouldn't matter it broke the rules and not destroying an artifact already in existance isn't necesserily against the rules.

He did not and could not make the Mantle because 1) he spent a very short time outside the divine establishment and 2) he was practically powerless at that point. We also have it on good authority that by the time he left the divine establishment, he had become too powerful for the other gods to just kill him with impunity (and, consequently, it was not the rules that protected him). (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?266118-What-is-the-point-of-redcloak-s-plan/page2&p=14473844#post14473844)


After alle: TDO seems to stick to all the other rules. Even rather intricite ones like the domain agreement - judging by Redcloak using the standard cleric spell list. If he could simply ignore the rules one would expect him to get more involved in The Plan than he does.

It might be possible for him to get away with bending the rules more than other gods do because they try to avoid escalation. But I don't think he can ignore them alltogether.

We don't know ehether he respects the domain agreement or not, because we don't know what his domain is, and where his jurisdiction would be (if he has a specific domain (he's a pantheon to himself, after all) and a specific area that belongs to him to begin with).


Xykon can be very determined if he want's to be. And wanting someone to get away with tricking you to waste decades , loose your life and continously risk your very existence for a phoney plan, might be a rather strong motivation.
Also: Xykon is an epic sorcerer. He doesn't have to stay focused for very long to do considerable damage to the goblinoid population. Some form of epic spell killing a quarter of a species in an instant aren't unherd of...

He sticked to the Plan for decades because he believes it will give him the power to rule the world. He has a lot less to gain with killing goblinoids to depress Redcloak's soul.