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EggKookoo
2020-10-07, 01:45 PM
I never played Spelljammer back in the day, but I've been reading about it where I can more recently. Just curious how people interpret the Phlogiston. Most descriptions make it seem like a vast nebula in all directions, like a rainbow/luminescent fog. Not entirely unlike the Mutara Nebula from Trek. But other things make it seem more like a flat sea, with the spheres floating at the surface. I'm inclined to go with the nebula visualization but what do you think?

Composer99
2020-10-07, 02:51 PM
I think the general idea is that the phlogiston is the cosmos/replacement for empty space/luminiferous aether, so it goes in all directions, so the crystal spheres float in it. That's what I remember, from back in the day, for what that's worth.

Segev
2020-10-07, 03:09 PM
I always thought it was 3D.

That said, I'm now vastly amused by the notion that it's actually 2D, and the illusion of three dimensionality that is the spheres bobbing on its surface and the ships floating there and people walking up and down in ships is just that: an illusion. Because this gives me freedom to tie it in to Star Control: Origins, where they took the hyperspace projection that is 2D for their game purposes and made in-universe lore references to the "very complicated math" that proves that hyperspace is 2-dimensional.

Jason
2020-10-07, 03:46 PM
I always thought it was 3D too, but looking back at the original boxed set it does use a lot of ocean and river and island metaphors in describing it, which all sound 2D.

EggKookoo
2020-10-07, 05:57 PM
Yeah, we have things like...

"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells."

And...

"The crystal spheres bob in the phlogiston like corks in an ocean (mind-boggling, enormous corks, but they do bob)."

But then...

"Phlogiston has varying thicknesses in space and forms dense rivers between planet-sized objects ... A ship can speed up and slow down by penetrating deeper into or raising itself out of these phlogiston rivers."

So I guess we're meant to visualize it how we like.

Duff
2020-10-07, 07:07 PM
From memory, there was stuff about moving in 3d and how ships which meet each other didn't have to be in the same orientation. If that's correct, that pretty well confirms 3d
If not, that supports 2d

Jason
2020-10-07, 07:17 PM
From memory, there was stuff about moving in 3d and how ships which meet each other didn't have to be in the same orientation. If that's correct, that pretty well confirms 3d
If not, that supports 2d

The rules say gravity works the same way on ships in the phlogiston as it does inside the crystal spheres, so that argues for 3D.

Basically, a ship has a gravity plane through its center of mass. Stuff above the plane falls down, while stuff below falls up. If you fall overboard you fall up and down until you come to a rest on the plane.
If a bigger ship gets close then everything aligns to its gravity plane, so an effective tactic if you have a bigger ship is to approach at an angle and maybe get enemy crew to fall down onto your deck when their gravity shifts to match yours.

Tanarii
2020-10-07, 08:32 PM
Clearly it's 2D, and the maps prove it!

I love this map btw
http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_games.jpg

raygun goth
2020-10-07, 09:01 PM
In the novels it was 3d, and described as filling up the deck and requiring all fire sources be extinguished at all times.

Flowrivers are like currents and areas of differential pressure.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-10-08, 01:45 AM
A third option would be to have it as a 2D sheet curving and folding and ripping to fill (or well, use) a 3D space, with gravity always aligning to point towards the phlogiston. The sheet could be just a few hundred meters thick to allow for drowning in it and for passing ships on the other side without conflict. In that case planets would stick out on both sides, with the phlogiston running through/aligning with their center. If you want planets to bob around in it like floating islands the sheet might have to be tens if thousands of kilometers thick instead, and would indeed start looking a lot like a regular 2D ocean for anyone sailing around on it. With a surface to surface depth a thousand times that of earth's oceans, who knows what lurks in these depths? The parallel world on the other side could be a whole thing as well, depending on how many or few tears, splits and folds there are that allow ships to end up there.

With a good enough map projection, or good enough map interpreters, 2D mapping of such a phlogiston could even make sense. More sense than 3D at least...

Segev
2020-10-08, 10:53 AM
Clearly it's 2D, and the maps prove it!

I love this map btw
http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_games.jpg

The map keeps timing out and saying it can't load, for me. :smallfrown:

D+1
2020-10-08, 10:57 AM
It's 2D simply because (for inexplicable reasons :smallsmile:) we don't have simple 3rd party software to make bespoke 3D Spelljammer maps

Telok
2020-10-08, 11:11 AM
It's 2D simply because (for inexplicable reasons :smallsmile:) we don't have simple 3rd party software to make bespoke 3D Spelljammer maps

Any 3D visualization software should do. Off the top of my head Kerbal and Minecraft should both be quite sufficent. The '90s sf computer game Frontier/Frontier: First Encounters did a good one in game and someone made a stand alone visualizer for it.

Clistenes
2020-10-08, 12:13 PM
Many advanced spelljamming vessels look like flying bugs rather than ships, so I think it's 3D. Groundlings use naval vessels as spelljamming ships because that's all they have, not because it's an actual sea, but proper Wildspace cultures build shapes better fit for 3D movement...

Tanarii
2020-10-08, 06:08 PM
The map keeps timing out and saying it can't load, for me. :smallfrown:
Better?
https://i.imgur.com/l8yu9Br.png

Segev
2020-10-09, 11:55 AM
Better?
https://i.imgur.com/l8yu9Br.png

That one works! Thanks!

sktarq
2020-10-09, 09:56 PM
I always imagined it a 3D but not even...there were belts of density that were often near planar (though rarely a flat plane-more like a flowing flapping sheet) as well as other parts that were more stream like....

So you could get 2D like effects - where a ship just barely in the denser stream would look like a ocean ship. . . Where a crystal sphere would "rise" over a "horizon" and the like but basically it was a 3D area movement wise.

Mechalich
2020-10-09, 10:24 PM
Yeah, we have things like...

"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells."

And...

"The crystal spheres bob in the phlogiston like corks in an ocean (mind-boggling, enormous corks, but they do bob)."

But then...

"Phlogiston has varying thicknesses in space and forms dense rivers between planet-sized objects ... A ship can speed up and slow down by penetrating deeper into or raising itself out of these phlogiston rivers."

So I guess we're meant to visualize it how we like.

This actually suggests a combination: three-dimensional, but distinctly flattened. This would of course, match the actual nature of most galaxies - the Milky Way is 200,000 light years across, but only about 1,000 light years in thickness. Spelljammer might accentuate that, with the Crystal Spheres 'bobbing' in a phlogiston medium that's only actually a couple of crystal sphere diameters thick. That would still be a mind-boggling huge distance, but it would be absolutely minute compared to the distances in the plane of travel between spheres.

Mutazoia
2020-10-12, 10:39 PM
This actually suggests a combination: three-dimensional, but distinctly flattened. This would of course, match the actual nature of most galaxies - the Milky Way is 200,000 light years across, but only about 1,000 light years in thickness. Spelljammer might accentuate that, with the Crystal Spheres 'bobbing' in a phlogiston medium that's only actually a couple of crystal sphere diameters thick. That would still be a mind-boggling huge distance, but it would be absolutely minute compared to the distances in the plane of travel between spheres.

You can actually "bob" while completely submerged inside a substance. Ever see a lava-lamp in action?

Think of the Phlogiston as the atmosphere of Jupiter (greatly expanded). There are different layers, with currents and eddies that wind around mostly predictable paths (the great eye is a good example). The Spheres would bob between layers: Heavier than one layer and it sinks to a layer where it's lighter than the surrounding gasses and rise again (again...think of a lava-lamp). Of course it wouldn't be gasses in this case, but layers of magical density (for lack of a more specific term).

The correct term is "IN" the Phlogiston, making the it a 3D environment. The combat maneuvers described in the rules would be impossible otherwise.

GrayDeath
2020-10-21, 03:50 PM
Agreed, I always saw it as a multicolored Etheric Pizza.

So 3D but flat 3D, kinda like the Star trek Armada Games.

That allows both to sink into it/rise out, spheres to bob on it, and for ships and spheres to be fully submerged.

And Mechanus wrote the laws that keep it in form of a Supersized round Chicago Pizza with triple Cheese and Jalapenjos (and all the meat^^).

Hmmm....

Mr Adventurer
2020-10-24, 10:17 AM
If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

EggKookoo
2020-10-24, 10:38 AM
If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

Obviously, you travel phlogistOFF.

(I'll see myself out.)

Tanarii
2020-10-24, 11:58 AM
Agreed, I always saw it as a multicolored Etheric Pizza.

So 3D but flat 3D, kinda like the Star trek Armada Games.

That allows both to sink into it/rise out, spheres to bob on it, and for ships and spheres to be fully submerged.
It's probably be better envisioned that all the parts of it thick enough to support traveling through it, and those with "flow", are in a flattened shape. Above and below it's so thin you couldn't get any serious propulsion even without the currents, and besides there's nothing out there anyway. Probably ...

Either that or (almost) all the spheres and currents are in a mostly 2D-ish layout, and so there's no need to travel in the deep phlogiston.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-10-25, 03:27 AM
If it's not it's own 3d space, then... what's outside it? What happens when you leave the phlogiston without entering a crystal sphere or contained structure?

(I always thought it was 3d, luminiferous ether essentially)

When you jump away from the phlogiston you fall back down, the same as with a regular ocean.

Birds and wizards casting fly might get a bit higher depending on if sailors on the phlogiston can breathe.

Lord Torath
2020-10-26, 08:19 AM
I've always had the idea it's more like a 3D nebula, with thicker 'rivers' and thinner 'voids'. It says in the Concordance of Arcane Space that the phlogiston is so thick that by the time you're close enough to see a crystal sphere, the sphere looks like a perfectly flat wall.

I imagine the 'bobbing' of the spheres is sort of like how the globes in a 'Galileo' thermometer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_thermometer) go up and down as the density of the water changes with temperature. Not that the spheres bob based on the temperature of the phlo, mind you, or that they're arranged vertically. Those are just the parts of the analogy that don't fit (as no analogy perfectly fits the thing it's being used to describe).

I imagine the various Phlo Maps people make are just 2D representations of the 3D connections between the spheres.

Edit: You can go much faster in the Phlo than you can in Wildspace. As far as I know, no official source has ever said how mush faster. Has anyone ever come up with their own numbers?

Segev
2020-10-26, 10:08 AM
Is there a good place to read full rules on Phlostigon? I don’t own Spelljammer.

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 10:15 AM
Is there a good place to read full rules on Phlostigon? I don’t own Spelljammer.

DriveThru has it for $10 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17263/Spelljammer-Adventures-in-Space-2e).

I don't think there's a free way to get it that wouldn't run afoul of this site's piracy rules.

There's also a wiki here (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/AD%26D_Adventures_in_Space) but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.

Segev
2020-10-26, 10:29 AM
DriveThru has it for $10 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17263/Spelljammer-Adventures-in-Space-2e).

I don't think there's a free way to get it that wouldn't run afoul of this site's piracy rules.

There's also a wiki here (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/AD%26D_Adventures_in_Space) but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.

Hm. Might get the $10 thing.

Lord Torath
2020-10-26, 11:07 AM
There's also a wiki here (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/AD%26D_Adventures_in_Space) but I haven't read through it to verify its accuracy.Here's a link to the specific wiki page on Phlogiston (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/Phlogiston,_the). It's fairly accurate, as far as I can tell.

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 11:33 AM
Here's a link to the specific wiki page on Phlogiston (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/Phlogiston,_the). It's fairly accurate, as far as I can tell.

One thing that's interesting is that most flowrivers are two-way, which means they're not literally rivers of flow (unless I guess they're dual-lane or threaded somehow). It's more like they're paths or threads of something that simply allows faster movement along them in whichever directions you want to go.

Segev
2020-10-26, 11:41 AM
Here's a link to the specific wiki page on Phlogiston (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/Phlogiston,_the). It's fairly accurate, as far as I can tell.

Thanks!

I know that, meta-narrative-wise, the reason fire reacts this way is because they chose to name it "phlostigon," and the original use of the word was in the old four-elements theory of matter, where phlostigon was essentially fire in its solid state, or the substance of fire within matter that wasn't actively burning. "Fire" was basically phlostigon escaping an object.

But from a planar theory standpoint, it's weird. Why is the matrix in which the layers of the Prime are suspended so much more Fire-related than it is any other element? Maybe there's room to argue there's an air and water element to it for the "flow" business and the breathability, but it still seems...off. (Also, is it breathable, or do you need your own air supply? It mentions in the wiki page that phlostigon is flammable "in the presence of air.")

It's also weird that electricity can't spark it off to fire.



Also, I went ahead and ordered the hardback and the PDFs of it; I've wanted those for a while and didn't know Drive-Thru RPG had the hard copies available!

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 11:49 AM
But from a planar theory standpoint, it's weird. Why is the matrix in which the layers of the Prime are suspended so much more Fire-related than it is any other element? Maybe there's room to argue there's an air and water element to it for the "flow" business and the breathability, but it still seems...off. (Also, is it breathable, or do you need your own air supply? It mentions in the wiki page that phlostigon is flammable "in the presence of air.")

I believe the phlogiston is not breathable on its own, but it doesn't interfere with breathing inside the atmosphere bubble of the ship. So you're "breathing" the phlog but not being harmed by it.

On a side note, were I to adapt Spelljammer to a current 5e game, I'd tweak some of that environmental stuff for ships. Per SJ RAW, any object that leaves an atmosphere 1) has a significant gravity field that happens to orient itself along its long axis (enough such that an ocean-going ship generates a flat plane of 1G along its deck), and 2) carries a bubble of breathable air with it that doesn't dissipate in a vacuum and can support breathing for a crew for weeks or even months. As I've said in other threads, I love suspension of disbelief as much as the next critter, but I have trouble with this. It's so much easier to just say the gravity and air are generated by the spelljammer helm that's lifting the ship unto space in the first place. Anyway...


It's also weird that electricity can't spark it off to fire.

Yeah, I would consider lightning damage being an issue as well. Did lightning damage exist mechanically in 2e?


Also, I went ahead and ordered the hardback and the PDFs of it; I've wanted those for a while and didn't know Drive-Thru RPG had the hard copies available!

Let us know the quality of that, if you don't mind? I was under the impression it wasn't an actual 2e printing but more of a POD from the PDF.

Segev
2020-10-26, 12:16 PM
Yeah, I would consider lightning damage being an issue as well. Did lightning damage exist mechanically in 2e?The wiki page linked specifically called out casters using lightning rather than fire for damage when in phlostigon in order to avoid having it explode in the caster's face.

Let us know the quality of that, if you don't mind? I was under the impression it wasn't an actual 2e printing but more of a POD from the PDF.I'll try to remember to come back to this thread to give a report, sure. :)

Telok
2020-10-26, 01:40 PM
The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (afb, title similar) book from TSR days had a bit more phlo info. Notable was that running out of air there wasn't a death sentence. Breathers without air went into infinite duration perfect suspended animation. Locking people in airtight coffins was a thing.

Downside was that phlo couldn't exist inside a crystal sphere, it literally stopped existing at the crossover point. You needed to have breathable air before you went back in.

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 01:52 PM
The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (afb, title similar) book from TSR days had a bit more phlo info. Notable was that running out of air there wasn't a death sentence. Breathers without air went into infinite duration perfect suspended animation. Locking people in airtight coffins was a thing.

That's part of the original material, I believe.

Lord Torath
2020-10-26, 02:20 PM
The wiki page linked specifically called out casters using lightning rather than fire for damage when in phlogiston in order to avoid having it explode in the caster's face. (fixed your spelling for you)

Well, it is just a wiki, after all. They're not known for getting everything right.

I'm pretty sure the lightning bolts still triggered explosions in the Phlo (at least, they do in my games). On the other hand, the caster can have the bolt start at least 70 yards away, so it will explode, but not in your face the way that a fireball would. It's not so much that lightning doesn't explode, but that the lightning bolt spell can start far away from you.

You are actually better off running out of air in the Phlo than you are inside a crystal sphere. If your air turns deadly inside a sphere, you take saving throws vs death until you die or get fresh (or foul) air. In the Phlo, you enter suspended animation, which you come out of when exposed to breathable air for 10 minutes or so.

On the other hand, if you die in a sphere, you go to your regularly-scheduled afterlife. If you die in the Phlo, your spirit hangs out until it comes across a living person, which you then try to take over and force it to enter a sphere. (Once inside a sphere, you can leave the poor person, and then proceed as above).


I believe the phlogiston is not breathable on its own, but it doesn't interfere with breathing inside the atmosphere bubble of the ship. So you're "breathing" the phlo but not being harmed by it.

On a side note, were I to adapt Spelljammer to a current 5e game, I'd tweak some of that environmental stuff for ships. Per SJ RAW, any object that leaves an atmosphere 1) has a significant gravity field that happens to orient itself along its long axis (enough such that an ocean-going ship generates a flat plane of 1G along its deck), and 2) carries a bubble of breathable air with it that doesn't dissipate in a vacuum and can support breathing for a crew for weeks or even months. As I've said in other threads, I love suspension of disbelief as much as the next critter, but I have trouble with this. It's so much easier to just say the gravity and air are generated by the spelljammer helm that's lifting the ship unto space in the first place. Anyway...Does this mean that your ship loses all gravity and breathable air when your helmsman suffers Spelljammer Shock? You can only man a helm for 24 hours straight. What happens when you're switching helmsmen? Or if you only have one spellcaster, and he needs a break?

As far as the physics go, the entire system is designed to justify the image of a knight standing on the completely exposed deck of his spaceship. Grubbian physics (named after Jeff Grubb the main creator of Spelljammer) states that any size G body (25 feet or larger) generates its own gravity field, and gravity works "in the way that is most convenient". Spheres generate spherical fields of gravity (usually, there are occasional exceptions), and oblong objects generate gravity planes.

I know a lot of people want Spelljammer to use more standard physics, rather than Grubbian physics. But D&D isn't real life, and I'm fine with it using physics that seems very like ours on large, earth-sized planets, but is revealed to be very different away from them. Relativity works exactly the same way. (I mean, the same way in that it is almost indistinguishable from Newtonian physics when you're standing on the surface of a planet, not that it functions like Grubbian physics).

Also, somewhere, far, far from the known spheres, the Arcane Inner Flow, and the Arcane Outer Flow, lies a crystal sphere that is trillions of billions of miles across, and where the Grubbian laws of physics no longer hold sway. Instead, this bizarre sphere is filled with light that moves so slowly that you can actually measure its speed, and the matter in the sphere is ruled by the nearly incomprehensible and somehow mutually incompatible laws of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics.

Regarding the planes, I've always maintained that the Phlo and all the crystal spheres and their interiors make up the Prime Material Plane. Inside the spheres, you can access the inner and outer planes, and outside the spheres, that access is cut off. Nothing official I've read (except, possibly, Hackjammer) has ever tried to tie the Phlogiston in as a transitive plane. That I remember anyway. (And it's entirely possible that if I did read something to that effect, I just said "That's stupid" and promptly forgot it).

Here's a link to the Essays on Wildspace (http://www.spelljammer.org/essays/) page of the official Spelljammer website (http://www.spelljammer.org/).

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 02:32 PM
Does this mean that your ship loses all gravity and breathable air when your helmsman suffers Spelljammer Shock? You can only man a helm for 24 hours straight. What happens when you're switching helmsmen? Or if you only have one spepllcaster, and he needs a break?

Nah, gravity and the force holding in your captured air still runs even when the helmsman steps down. Possibly indefinitely, but long enough to rest regardless.


As far as the physics go, the entire system is designed to justify the image of a knight standing on the completely exposed deck of his spaceship. Grubbian physics (named after Jeff Grubb the main creator of Spelljammer) states that any size G body (25 feet or larger) generates its own gravity field, and gravity works "in the way that is most convenient". Spheres generate spherical fields of gravity (usually, there are occasional exceptions), and oblong objects generate gravity planes.

I know a lot of people want Spelljammer to use more standard physics, rather than Grubbian physics. But D&D isn't real life, and I'm fine with it using physics that seems very like ours on large, earth-sized planets, but is revealed to be very different away from them. Relativity works exactly the same way. (I mean, the same way in that it is almost indistinguishable from Newtonian physics when you're standing on the surface of a planet, not that it functions like Grubbian physics).

It's fine, not trying to tell anyone how to run their game. I just know myself and my players, and we'd "embed" into Spelljammer better if it was a little more compatible with what we know. Like, take the atmosphere thing. If a body holds onto atmosphere, would that remain true if you climbed up to the top of Everest? For gravity, it says smaller body A aligns with larger body B if A is within B's gravity, but what about tiny body C near A? Is it still aligned with A because A is bigger, or with B because A is with B's range? If C aligns with B, then why are we all aligned with the planet beneath us despite us all caught in the sun's gravity?

So all I'm saying is it's simpler to assume physics, at least within a "conventional" sphere like Realms, works mostly like we experience in reality, and the exceptions -- which are really only relevant to spelljamming -- are a product of spelljamming itself. Whether or not it being simpler is better is a matter of taste, of course, but that's what appeals to me. It still allows the image of the knight standing on the exposed deck of his ship. Thematically, it works with that Treasure Planet aesthetic the setting is going for.

Lord Torath
2020-10-26, 02:54 PM
So all I'm saying is it's simpler to assume physics, at least within a "conventional" sphere like Realms, works mostly like we experience in reality, and the exceptions -- which are really only relevant to spelljamming -- are a product of spelljamming itself. Whether or not it being simpler is better is a matter of taste, of course, but that's what appeals to me. It still allows the image of the knight standing on the exposed deck of his ship. Thematically, it works with that Treasure Planet aesthetic the setting is going for.NO! YOU MUST PLAY MY WAY! OTHERWISE YOU ARE HAVING FUN WRONG, AND THAT IS NOT PERMITTED!

I'd recommend giving it a try with the Grubbian physics, but I understand I'm not everyone, and it won't keep me up nights knowing you're playing the way that works best for you. :smallsmile:

EggKookoo
2020-10-26, 03:54 PM
NO! YOU MUST PLAY MY WAY! OTHERWISE YOU ARE HAVING FUN WRONG, AND THAT IS NOT PERMITTED!

I'd recommend giving it a try with the Grubbian physics, but I understand I'm not everyone, and it won't keep me up nights knowing you're playing the way that works best for you. :smallsmile:

What is this new fangled live-and-let-live attitude? In my day, we'd have tripped Godwin three times by now.