8th level Hexblade Spell

[thereaper]

Is it just me, or are the options for a 8th level spells kind of awful for Hexblades? I can't see a single one in the bunch that looks better than, say, a Wizard dip for Magic Missile. Not like Forcecage (no save just win) or True Polymorph (get an army of dragons in your downtime).

Am I missing something?

[Keravath]

I don't know ... their 8th level spell choices for their 15th level Mystic Arcanum aren't that bad. On the other hand the 1/day nature of it rather than a spell slot use is a bit limiting.

The following seem ok ish

Maddening Darkness (XGtE) - seems pretty nasty and magical darkness plays to the archetype - does damage on a failed save - huge area of effect.
Feeblemind - Nasty single target spell
Dominate Monster - situationally useful single target spell
Power Word Stun - nice single target with no save for the first round if they have less than 150 hit points - soften up the BBEG a bit then stun them.

I'd probably go for Maddening Darkness just for a big AoE effect ... might go well with repelling blast if you have that.

Forcecage and True Polymorph are good spells but Forcecage only locks up a target, it doesn't defeat them and the advantages of True Polymorph over Polymorph are that you can make it "permanent" until the creature hits zero hit points or some one dispels it and you can transform into any creature. (Permanent depends on how the DM decides to rule it but making the transformation "permanent" can be interpreted as changing the duration without affecting the revert at 0 hit points or dead aspect of the spell.) H

[cutlery]

I'd do maddening darkness, since Hunger of Hadar doesn't scale.

The 2019 class versatility options added Horrid Wilting, but Maddening Darkness looks more useful.

Not really hexblade-y, but on that same token the most hexblade-y 9th level spell is sort of boring if powerful (foresight).

[MaxWilson]

Is it just me, or are the options for a 8th level spells kind of awful for Hexblades? I can't see a single one in the bunch that looks better than, say, a Wizard dip for Magic Missile. Not like Forcecage (no save just win) or True Polymorph (get an army of dragons in your downtime).

Am I missing something?

You're not wrong, but I will note that Feeblemind neatly counters some of the more dangerous enemies you can encounter, including some of the guys that you're most worried about getting out of your Forcecage. It also doesn't cost concentration, and it targets what tends to be one of the weaker ability scores for most enemies. Furthermore it weakens enemy saves to make other finishing moves like Forcecage + Planar Binding or Wish (Planar Binding) from the party bard/wizard viable.

In other words, Feeblemind is insurance against the worst things (spellcasting dragons, demon lords, etc.), and it's nice to have one or more Feebleminds available in the party.

[cutlery]

Feeblemind has its uses, but if there are other casters in the party that can cast it and it falls on the Warlock because they don’t think it is worth it, I think that’s a teamwork mistake.

Anyone else that can cast it has far less opportunity cost from learning it than the Warlock.

[Benny89]

I played Hexblade in Tier 4 and I took Glibness as my spell. That was because:

Me and Paladin were only CHA based characters and I am more eloquent player so I was "party face". Having that guaranteed minimum 15 check on all social rolls got us really a lot in many situations and solved a lot of situations without using force.

Secondly I really liked to cast it when I knew we gonna fight caster. It's concentration free so I still got my Shadow of Moil on me. But If I had to I could counterspell anything enemy caster could have throw at us. Our Abjuration Wizard was the FIRST counterspell defense, but he he failed or he used reaction for Shield etc. then I could (at that point you have 2 slots free in fight) counterspell everything. The lowest Counterspell roll with Glibness on is 20 (21 in my case as I had 22 CHA back then thanks to magic item).

That's what I took and I was really versitile and great overall choice. I had enough ofense and defense.

[MaxWilson]

Feeblemind has its uses, but if there are other casters in the party that can cast it and it falls on the Warlock because they don’t think it is worth it, I think that’s a teamwork mistake.

Anyone else that can cast it has far less opportunity cost from learning it than the Warlock.

I'm not so sure about that. Aren't we discussing how the Warlock doesn't have any compelling uses for his 8th level slot? A Druid, on the other hand, could use that same slot to cast Antipathy, or Conjure Woodland Creatures (a.k.a. Conjure 18d4+108 (153) of Quickling attacks per round), or Animal Shapes. If the Warlock already has Feeblemind covered, the Druid can cast something else.

If the warlock had the ability to upcast lower-level spells as Mystic Arcana, I would totally take Summon Greater Demon VIII (Glabrezu) over Feeblemind, every time. I don't think they can though.

[Hael]

8th lvl spells in general are a bit underwhelming. Maddening darkness is ok, it’s somewhat of an upgrade relative to shadow of Moil. But it sort of forces you to repurchase devil sight invocation and the area of effect is less manageable than usual darkness, and by that lvl a lot of creatures have extra vision and other shenanigans.

It’s one of those spells that probably should be concentration free to buff warlock late games.

I would probably take demiplane or feeblemind instead.

[Blood of Gaea]

I generally like taking either Feeblemind or Mind Blank. Mind Blank is a nice way to stack passive buffs on yourself.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't think Mind Blank is a Warlock spell?

[thereaper]

I don't think Mind Blank is a Warlock spell?

I wish it was.

[cutlery]

I'm not so sure about that. Aren't we discussing how the Warlock doesn't have any compelling uses for his 8th level slot?

I think I’d still take maddening darkness; barring a bard that’s a pretty unique spell.

I have a fondness for area denial spells, though.

Beyond those two, I don’t see many compelling choices.

Really, the more I think about it the more I don’t think I’d miss the arcanums at all, given the choices.

[MaxWilson]

8th lvl spells in general are a bit underwhelming. Maddening darkness is ok, it’s somewhat of an upgrade relative to shadow of Moil. But it sort of forces you to repurchase devil sight invocation and the area of effect is less manageable than usual darkness, and by that lvl a lot of creatures have extra vision and other shenanigans.

Speaking of 8th level spells in general, there are some interesting ones (Animal Shapes, Antipathy/Sympathy, Anti-Magic Field--and Holy Aura is just straight-up terrific, a great Magical Secrets candidate). But a lot of the other good 8th level spells are just upcast lower-level spells. Summon a Korred and have him summon an Earth Elemental; or make yourself immune to 7th-level spells and lower; or conjure 24 Dust Mephits and have them blind everything in sight and then swarm them with attacks; summon a Glabrezu and make it immediately cast Power Word Stun on a bad guy and then go fight (make sure the nearest non-demons to it are your enemies). These are all worthy uses of the spell slot.

But warlocks don't really have any of those options for their 8th level slot.


I think I’d still take maddening darkness; barring a bard that’s a pretty unique spell.

I dunno, to me it looks not much different from a bigger Wall of Fire. Better damage type I guess if you're fighting demons (competitive with Wall of Light) but fundamentally it's still just area denial/18-36 HP of extra damage in a moderately-large area. I guess I can see how you might like it though, especially if you combine it with Devil's Sight, Repelling Blast, and Lance of Lethargy on difficult terrain to keep bad guys within it for a long time.

[thereaper]

I think I’d still take maddening darkness; barring a bard that’s a pretty unique spell.

I have a fondness for area denial spells, though.

Beyond those two, I don’t see many compelling choices.

Really, the more I think about it the more I don’t think I’d miss the arcanums at all, given the choices.

6th has Mass Suggestion, 7th has Forcecage and Plane Shift, 9th has True Polymorph and Foresight. 8th is the odd man out.

[Mr Adventurer]

Speaking of 8th level spells in general, there are some interesting ones (Animal Shapes, Antipathy/Sympathy, Anti-Magic Field--and Holy Aura is just straight-up terrific, a great Magical Secrets candidate). But a lot of the other good 8th level spells are just upcast lower-level spells. Summon a Korred and have him summon an Earth Elemental; or make yourself immune to 7th-level spells and lower; or conjure 24 Dust Mephits and have them blind everything in sight and then swarm them with attacks; summon a Glabrezu and make it immediately cast Power Word Stun on a bad guy and then go fight (make sure the nearest non-demons to it are your enemies). These are all worthy uses of the spell slot.

But warlocks don't really have any of those options for their 8th level slot.

I hadn't appreciated how great an upcast Globe of Invulnerability was for boss monsters until now, thanks. A worthy use of the 9th level slot, even, I'd say. Does Globe of Invulnerability move with the caster? It is range of Self and "remains for the duration" but doesn't specifically say it moves with you.

[cutlery]

6th has Mass Suggestion, 7th has Forcecage and Plane Shift, 9th has True Polymorph and Foresight. 8th is the odd man out.

None of those are really much fun for the Hexblade bladelock that wants to hit people, though.

I do like crown of stars but radiant damage is so off-brand for the Hexblade.

I’d probably do:

Soul Cage
Crown of Stars
Maddening Darkness
Foresight

Only ever having the one choice sucks.

...but I’d think hard about levels in another class after 12, anyway, if striking people is where their true calling is.

[Keravath]

I hadn't appreciated how great an upcast Globe of Invulnerability was for boss monsters until now, thanks. A worthy use of the 9th level slot, even, I'd say. Does Globe of Invulnerability move with the caster? It is range of Self and "remains for the duration" but doesn't specifically say it moves with you.

No Globe of Invulnerability doesn't move with the caster. I was in a game when a Red Wizard cast it, the barbarian rushed in, grappled the mage and dragged them out of the area of the Globe making the wizard vulnerable once again. So far less useful than one might think.

"An immobile, faintly shimmering barrier springs into existence in a 10-foot radius around you and remains for the duration"

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh yes, thanks. Still a lot of potential.

[Skylivedk]

Is it just me, or are the options for a 8th level spells kind of awful for Hexblades? I can't see a single one in the bunch that looks better than, say, a Wizard dip for Magic Missile. Not like Forcecage (no save just win) or True Polymorph (get an army of dragons in your downtime).

Am I missing something?

No, you aren't. 8th level is a bit underwhelming. I went with Glibness for the out of combat+counterspell utility, but I was looking at Feeblemind too. I did consider Demiplane, but with a 3 day long rest rule, it was a lot less appealing. I didn't like Maddening Darkness. On an evoker, it has it uses, but it's clunky on the Hexblade.

[lukethecat2003]

Demiplane is a nice spell though, right?
it allows you to take a breather and/or change the battleground, esp if you have a grappler.

[MaxWilson]

Demiplane is a nice spell though, right?
it allows you to take a breather and/or change the battleground, esp if you have a grappler.

Yes, and you can also do things like e.g. stuff one full of Purple Worms or uncontrolled zombies, and now you've got sort of a pocket-nuke. It's not a terrible pick--but it also doesn't feel very warlocky, because it's not something you can use effectively every day, because you have to preload it. It has of a wizardy feel, IMO.

[Gtdead]

I always see feeblemind as a pvp spell because at lvl 8, monsters tend to have legendary resistances.
Glibness is an odd spell on the warlock for me. It actually fits thematically, but I think that warlock won't get much mileage out of it. He has 3 spell slots when he gets glibness. I don't think that he is going to cast counterspell more than 2 times a day, even if he wants to, because he has to use the advantage generation spells in combat.

I actually think that maddening hex will promote more usage of counterspell tbh. The damage is pretty good and can bring enough value to the fight. Which means that he won't use his limited spellslots for damage boosts, the casters won't have to help things along with aoe spells, so there will be more slots left for spells like counterspell. Also it can be combo'd with a wall spell to trap enemies inside.

[Skylivedk]

I always see feeblemind as a pvp spell because at lvl 8, monsters tend to have legendary resistances.
Glibness is an odd spell on the warlock for me. It actually fits thematically, but I think that warlock won't get much mileage out of it. He has 3 spell slots when he gets glibness. I don't think that he is going to cast counterspell more than 2 times a day, even if he wants to, because he has to use the advantage generation spells in combat.

I actually think that maddening hex will promote more usage of counterspell tbh. The damage is pretty good and can bring enough value to the fight. Which means that he won't use his limited spellslots for damage boosts, the casters won't have to help things along with aoe spells, so there will be more slots left for spells like counterspell. Also it can be combo'd with a wall spell to trap enemies inside.
2 times a day? One counterspell would net you 3 and the social value is pretty damn high. It's reliable talent, but better.

I guess you mean Maddening Darkness. To me the damage is still too low for its level plus it can easily be impossible to use die to the massive AoE

[RSP]

Can you grab an upcast spell? (I know it’s DM dependent whether it’s allowed)

If so, I’d go 8th level Crown of Stars. Non-Conc, works well with Hexblades Curse and/or Hex. Nice duration. 9x 4d12 Radiant as a BA is pretty good damage.

Feeblemind is nice, as mentioned. Demiplane can be good.

[Gtdead]

2 times a day? One counterspell would net you 3 and the social value is pretty damn high. It's reliable talent, but better.

I guess you mean Maddening Darkness. To me the damage is still too low for its level plus it can easily be impossible to use die to the massive AoE

Yea I meant Maddening Darkness. You mean 3 assuming he will dedicate one slot per short rest? Yes perhaps, but still I feel that warlock doesn't really care about planning counterspells when advantage generation is so important to him. I think the counterspeller needs to be a bit more dedicated than that assuming that you don't really know what you are going to counterspell.

I also don't have great experience with these high diplomacy rolls. I mean, glibness for a cha character gives something like 25 minimum roll, which is great. But who will it affect? Is it enough to affect a king's decision? Will the DM actually allow a character with 25 minimum diplomacy rolls to affect his campaign as much as that roll deserves? I'm used to having to beat DCs of 15 and 20 at level 2-3.

I quite like the idea of maddening darkness+forcewall from the wizard. It's a persistent effect. However it requires a.. wizard in the party (or someone else that can cast it anyway).

But in any case, it's either that or glibness. I wish I had more experience with the class at these levels to see how the pacing works because it's really an odd selection of spells compared to what he gets on other levels.