help with Kenku Build

[pontusedberg]

Heya! I need some help Building an Kenku in 3.5
I love playing as a kenku rogue arcane trickster in 5e, as its quite verstile and a have a lot of action economy,
and i would very much like to enjoy the same play style in 3.5. But i heard arcane trickster for 3.5 really sucks. so looking for something else to fit the role

Right now we are lvl 3, I used to play as an Urbain Druid, It kinda fitted, but not really, and it was quite bad in combat,
But i got permission to change my character from my dm using the standard array. So i would like to change it into something more fun.

A couple of things that are required for my character
1. a Raven familiar (preffible one that can be re-summond if it dies)
2, Roguish (mostly just stealing shiny things)
3. Weird Illusion/enchantment magic

[pontusedberg]

Alrighty after asking around on discord, i should focus on lvl 1 spellthief, lvl 2 wizard, take the Weapons finnese and Two weapons fighting

then after that take an other level in Spellthief and after that get Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster, and Worship Shaar, so i can get one level in Shadow Adept, :V

[Darrin]

Unseen Seer is sort of the Gold Standard for "I want to be sneaky and cast spells." Spellthief is problematic, because its class abilities are locked in to how many Spellthief levels you have, and the wording on the Master Spellthief feat doesn't really fix this unless you have a cooperative DM.

It sounds like you want a TWF rogue-ish Gish build. With that in mind, some questions:

Do you want the build to eventually get 9th level spells? If not, is 8th ok? (If 8th is ok, have you looked at Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) yet?) Or do you just want the spellcasting to help you stab things?

What sourcebooks are available? Do you want to stick to just official 3.5 sources? Is official online/web content ok? What about Dragon Magazine? How about 3rd party... or PF/Paizo/etc.?

[pontusedberg]

All offocial 3.5e source books are allowed i believe,
I think i kinda want sneaky build that can cast some spells,,,
arcane trickster in 5e really fits the bucket for me,
in 3.5 im not sure as im newb at the system

[ixrisor]

Probably something like rogue/wizard into unseen seer into arcane trickster is the simplest build. Trade the familiar away and use the Obtain familiar feat instead if you want to continue its progression of special abilities, but that’s not required because it’s hp, bab, etc are based on your stats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Trickster spellthief into Unseen Seer sounds like a good fit. Pick up the Dark template or a collar of umbral metamorphosis for extra stealth. The Darkstalker feat can help you hide from special senses (blindsense, blindsight, and so on), which becomes important at higher levels.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, so you want a raven man with raven familiars that steals shiny things and gets some weird illusion magic. I can work with that.

Are you using multiclass XP penalties? If not, you could do something like...

1 Ranger1- Criminal Background, Urban Tracking
2 Ranger2- Two-Weapon Fighting
3 Ranger3- Endurance, Weapon Finesse
4 Ranger4-
5 Wizard1- Weapon Focus (longsword)
6 Knight of the Raven1- Worldly Focus
7 Knight of the Raven2-
8 Knight of the Raven3-
9 Divine Crusader1- Divine Might
10 Sovereign Speaker1-
11 Sovereign Speaker2-
12 Sovereign Speaker3- Master Pickpocket
13 Sovereign Speaker4-
14 Knight of the Raven4-
15 Knight of the Raven5- Practiced Spellcaster, Enduring Life
16 Knight of the Raven6-
17 Knight of the Raven7-
18 Knight of the Raven8- xxx, Lasting Life
19 Knight of the Raven9-
20 Knight of the Raven10-

You'll take the urban companion ACF for ranger (replaces your animal companion with an urban companion), and the martial wizard ACF (lets you take a fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll). Worship the Sovereign Host from Eberron. You get five domains total. To hit the flavor you've asked for, I'd recommend:


Charm (lots of good enchantment spells, daily bonus to Charisma)
Luck (free daily re-roll, lots of generally handy spells for a thief, mislead, miracle at high levels)
Celerity (haste, time stop, blur, etc.)
Commerce (kind of a funny list, gets some gems like glibness and tongues)
Mind (defensive anti-enchantment stuff including mind blank, plus a few cute mind-altering spells like brain spider)



Sadly the Sovereign Host doesn't get Trickery or Illusion, but you can't have it all I guess... Other fun options include Knowledge, Animal, Protection, Magic or Travel.

Net result:

Three raven buddies: one from urban companion (ranger ACF), one as your wizard familiar, and one celestial raven (which auto-refreshes every day without penalty) from knight of the raven
Good thievery from Criminal Background + Master Pickpocket
9th-level spells from 5 domains
+17 BAB for standard gishy goodness, plus TWF and Divine Might for some nice bonus damage


Don't forget that you can instruct your three raven buddies to all aid you on every check you make, too! With your kenku Great Ally bonus, that means a +9 to basically every check or roll you want to make. Not too shabby.

[pontusedberg]

OK, so you want a raven man with raven familiars that steals shiny things and gets some weird illusion magic. I can work with that.

Are you using multiclass XP penalties? If not, you could do something like...

1 Ranger1- Criminal Background, Urban Tracking
2 Ranger2- Two-Weapon Fighting
3 Ranger3- Endurance, Weapon Finesse
4 Ranger4-
5 Wizard1- Weapon Focus (longsword)
6 Knight of the Raven1- Worldly Focus
7 Knight of the Raven2-
8 Knight of the Raven3-
9 Divine Crusader1- Divine Might
10 Sovereign Speaker1-
11 Sovereign Speaker2-
12 Sovereign Speaker3- Master Pickpocket
13 Sovereign Speaker4-
14 Knight of the Raven4-
15 Knight of the Raven5- Practiced Spellcaster, Enduring Life
16 Knight of the Raven6-
17 Knight of the Raven7-
18 Knight of the Raven8- xxx, Lasting Life
19 Knight of the Raven9-
20 Knight of the Raven10-

You'll take the urban companion ACF for ranger (replaces your animal companion with an urban companion), and the martial wizard ACF (lets you take a fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll). Worship the Sovereign Host from Eberron. You get five domains total. To hit the flavor you've asked for, I'd recommend:


Charm (lots of good enchantment spells, daily bonus to Charisma)
Luck (free daily re-roll, lots of generally handy spells for a thief, mislead, miracle at high levels)
Celerity (haste, time stop, blur, etc.)
Commerce (kind of a funny list, gets some gems like glibness and tongues)
Mind (defensive anti-enchantment stuff including mind blank, plus a few cute mind-altering spells like brain spider)



Sadly the Sovereign Host doesn't get Trickery or Illusion, but you can't have it all I guess... Other fun options include Knowledge, Animal, Protection, Magic or Travel.

Net result:

Three raven buddies: one from urban companion (ranger ACF), one as your wizard familiar, and one celestial raven (which auto-refreshes every day without penalty) from knight of the raven
Good thievery from Criminal Background + Master Pickpocket
9th-level spells from 5 domains
+17 BAB for standard gishy goodness, plus TWF and Divine Might for some nice bonus damage


Don't forget that you can instruct your three raven buddies to all aid you on every check you make, too! With your kenku Great Ally bonus, that means a +9 to basically every check or roll you want to make. Not too shabby.

im quite newb witht he 3.5 system at whole, how should my stats look like?

[Piggy Knowles]

Charisma drives your spellcasting, knight of the raven abilities and weapon damage, plus any Cha-based skills you go for. Dexterity drives your skills, AC and attack. I'd focus primarily on those two stats. A passable Intelligence will help with skills and a passable Constitution will help keep you alive, but 12-14 should be high enough in these.

Also, just had it pointed out to me that I forgot that Divine Might requires Power Attack, so you can drop that from the build. Sorry, brain fart.

[Gallowglass]

OK, so you want a raven man with raven familiars that steals shiny things and gets some weird illusion magic. I can work with that.

Are you using multiclass XP penalties? If not, you could do something like...

1 Ranger1- Criminal Background, Urban Tracking
2 Ranger2- Two-Weapon Fighting
3 Ranger3- Endurance, Weapon Finesse
4 Ranger4-
5 Wizard1- Weapon Focus (longsword)
6 Knight of the Raven1- Worldly Focus
7 Knight of the Raven2-
8 Knight of the Raven3-
9 Divine Crusader1- Divine Might
10 Sovereign Speaker1-
11 Sovereign Speaker2-
12 Sovereign Speaker3- Master Pickpocket
13 Sovereign Speaker4-
14 Knight of the Raven4-
15 Knight of the Raven5- Practiced Spellcaster, Enduring Life
16 Knight of the Raven6-
17 Knight of the Raven7-
18 Knight of the Raven8- xxx, Lasting Life
19 Knight of the Raven9-
20 Knight of the Raven10-

You'll take the urban companion ACF for ranger (replaces your animal companion with an urban companion), and the martial wizard ACF (lets you take a fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll). Worship the Sovereign Host from Eberron. You get five domains total. To hit the flavor you've asked for, I'd recommend:


Charm (lots of good enchantment spells, daily bonus to Charisma)
Luck (free daily re-roll, lots of generally handy spells for a thief, mislead, miracle at high levels)
Celerity (haste, time stop, blur, etc.)
Commerce (kind of a funny list, gets some gems like glibness and tongues)
Mind (defensive anti-enchantment stuff including mind blank, plus a few cute mind-altering spells like brain spider)



Sadly the Sovereign Host doesn't get Trickery or Illusion, but you can't have it all I guess... Other fun options include Knowledge, Animal, Protection, Magic or Travel.

Net result:

Three raven buddies: one from urban companion (ranger ACF), one as your wizard familiar, and one celestial raven (which auto-refreshes every day without penalty) from knight of the raven
Good thievery from Criminal Background + Master Pickpocket
9th-level spells from 5 domains
+17 BAB for standard gishy goodness, plus TWF and Divine Might for some nice bonus damage


Don't forget that you can instruct your three raven buddies to all aid you on every check you make, too! With your kenku Great Ally bonus, that means a +9 to basically every check or roll you want to make. Not too shabby.

First- great build! I love it, but I don't understand how you are getting to 9th level spells

Knight of the Raven can only advance divine spellcasters. So your first three levels can only advance your Ranger spell casting, right?

After than, assume the further levels advance your Sovereign Speaker casting then you end up with spells as a 7th level Ranger and 11th level Sovereign Speaker. That tops out at 6th level spells.

So you must be using a trick I don't understand.

Also: Is Wizard 1 there for anything other than the raven familiar?

[Piggy Knowles]

First- great build! I love it, but I don't understand how you are getting to 9th level spells

Knight of the Raven can only advance divine spellcasters. So your first three levels can only advance your Ranger spell casting, right?

After than, assume the further levels advance your Sovereign Speaker casting then you end up with spells as a 7th level Ranger and 11th level Sovereign Speaker. That tops out at 6th level spells.

So you must be using a trick I don't understand.

Also: Is Wizard 1 there for anything other than the raven familiar?

Wizard is just there for the familiar, yeah. You could easily drop it, I just thought it was funny to be a kenku with three ravens following it around. You could certainly replace it with something else.

Re: the casting, you're right in that the first three levels of KotR advances ranger. Then you take a level of divine crusader, which is a divine casting class that gives you 1st through 9th spells from a single domain over 10 levels. 3/4 of the sovereign speaker levels advance a divine class themselves, so you advance divine crusader. (They also add four more domains.) Then the remaining 7 levels of KotR advance the rest.

You end up with full divine crusader casting, plus extra spell slots and four extra domains from sovereign speaker, and a caster level of 15.

[rrwoods]

im quite newb witht he 3.5 system at whole, how should my stats look like?

Since you're currently level 3, figuring this out is pretty straightforward for now. As you gain levels you can figure out how each level changes your statistics one at a time. I'll do a quick walkthrough of what you need to do for your current level; let me (or I'm sure Piggy) know if you have further questions.

You mentioned "the standard array"; this refers to 13 12 11 10 9 8, which is fairly weak. I'll assume this is what you actually get for now, but check with your DM to see if they mean something else. Following Piggy's advice, you'll want to assign the stats in the order (from highest to lowest) Cha > Dex > Con > Int > Wis > Str (I think*). After that, apply the Kenku's racial ability modifiers.

(*EDIT: I see we're focusing on Divine Crusader's spellcasting, which is not yet available to you at level 3.)

The first three levels of Piggy's build are all Ranger, so you're looking at the base saves, base attack, and class features from only Ranger (at level 3). The build uses the Urban ranger variant from Unearthed Arcana, so you're substituting the normal Track feat for the Urban Tracking ACF (which is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er).

The other hard-to-find thing here is the Criminal Background feat which is found in City of Stormreach. This feat adds Bluff, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand to your class skill list (for all classes you take levels in), and the ability to try to detect criminal intent in someone you're observing with a DC 15 Sense Motive check. Additionally you get +4 to Gather Information checks made about crime or criminals.

All in all, the process you need to follow to put this level 3 character together is:

* Determine and assign your ability scores, and apply racial modifiers (again, check with your DM about what the values will be, "standard array" is pretty weak but maybe that's the kind of game you're in)

* Write "ranger 3" in the class levels part

* Determine your base attack bonus and base saves, for a 3rd level ranger

* Determine your hit points. Ranger gets a d8 hit die, and the first level is always maximized. So your hit points will be (8 + Con mod) + (1d8 + Con mod) + (1d8 + Con mod).

* Assign your skill points. A ranger gets (6 + Int mod) skill points per level (times four at first, as per usual). The easiest way to do this would be to pick (6 + Int mod) skills from your class skill list, and assign 6 points to each of them (which is the maximum number of ranks you can have). After you assign your skill points, determine the total bonus for those by also adding in your ability modifier for each one.

* Write up your feats (Criminal Background, Urban Tracking, Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Weapon Finesse) and class features (Favored Enemy OR Favored Enemy Organization).

After all this you'll want to buy equipment, and determine your armor class, total attack modifier with your weapons, and weapon damage, along with whatever else your items get you. The amount of gold to spend here will be determined by your DM.

[Piggy Knowles]

You mentioned "the standard array"; this refers to 13 12 11 10 9 8, which is fairly weak. I'll assume this is what you actually get for now, but check with your DM to see if they mean something else. Following Piggy's advice, you'll want to assign the stats in the order (from highest to lowest) Wis > Dex > Con > Int > Cha > Str (I think*). After that, apply the Kenku's racial ability modifiers.

(*Piggy mentioned that Charisma drives spellcasting, but for Ranger it's actually Wis. Not sure if I'm missing something in the build or this was a mistake. Charisma does still drive the Knight of the Raven's smite undead ability and maybe some other things so it's still worth focusing a bit, but this build wants a lot of reasonable scores to be honest.)

The primary casting element in the build is actually divine crusader, not ranger (though the +7 BAB requirement of divine crusader means you can't take it for a while). Ranger casting is OK but slooooooow, and you can get away with no higher than an 11 or 12 in Wis. Divine crusader is Cha-based (and I believe is the only Cha-based prepared caster, which is neat).

EDIT: Swordsage'd by an edit.

[rrwoods]

The primary casting element in the build is actually divine crusader, not ranger (though the +7 BAB requirement of divine crusader means you can't take it for a while). Ranger casting is OK but slooooooow, and you can get away with no higher than an 11 or 12 in Wis. Divine crusader is Cha-based (and I believe is the only Cha-based prepared caster, which is neat).

EDIT: Swordsage'd by an edit.
Yeah I somehow missed originally that the Divine Crusader casting was the focus. I got there eventually :P

BTW this build does look pretty sweet, and I love that you did the Raven-man + raven + raven + raven thing at the same time as making something that probably plays really well mechanically.

EDIT: I may actually write this thing up as a more complete-statted build that I have in my back pocket, either as a funnyish NPC or potentially to play in a future game. If I do this it would not be very hard to stat-block the level 3 checkpoint for OP (not sure that I will have the time to do this soon though).

It honestly feels like something out of the Opt Showcase (Cutting Room Floor / Outside the Door, if you will!).

[Thurbane]

A couple of things that are required for my character
1. a Raven familiar (preffible one that can be re-summond if it dies)
2, Roguish (mostly just stealing shiny things)
3. Weird Illusion/enchantment magic

My suggestion would be Beguiler (to cover stealing things and illusion magic), and you could take the Obtain Familiar feat to get a raven familiar. A familiar can be killed, of course.

Another option would be the Bind Vestige > Improved Bind Vestige > Practiced Binder Feats.

If you bind Malphas, you can summon a crow, which you can see through its eyes, and even use skills like Disarm Device through it as a proxy.

If you want something less feat intensive, you could always go Beguiler X/Binder X/Anima Mage to get the same effect. You only need a single Binder level if you take the Improved Binding feat. Arguably, you don't need any levels in Binder, and can qualify for the PrC with feats alone.