How do you deal with a DM "mistake"?

[H_H_F_F]

I apologize in advance for rambling.

So, I've been playing in this campaign with some friends, after years of DMing but never getting to play. I was supremely excited, and we're all having fun. The DM is used to being a player and has very poor system mastery (like the rest of the group), but it's been going all right, and I've been having a blast.

Last session, the DM ran us into an ambush. Now, we're playing 6th level characters,low to mid-low OP, with very low WBL. We were ran into a 9th or 10th level Drow Wizard with a little support from centaurs. We were suddenly transitioned into a different area of the forest, and the enemy got a surprise round. No save, no listen check, no spot check - even though we were all actively looking and I had my owl in the air.

We got annihilated. Fireball in the face (rolling instead of set DC because that's what the DM is used to doing, so my 24 reflex save didn't help) for 30 damage each, plus arrows from the help. My glitterdust got dispelled easily, dude had boots of flying.

This was clearly a fight we were never meant to win, but we had no means of escape or of dealing with the enemy. He did a lot of damage to everyone and then commanded us to leave (no reason I can think of for not killing us or taking us captive, given context). I died to a barrage of magic missiles when I had 4 HP because the enemy was annoyed with me, but it got retconed to me losing 2 Con, forever.

This has led to my suspension of disbelief breaking completely. I just can't think of anything in in-world terms anymore. Now, all I can think is "I would have never done that/ there are better ways to introduce the power level of a villain/ complete helplessness should only be used rarely for narrative effect/ this is why we don't roll for spell DC/ this narrative is childish" etc, etc, etc.

I'm feeling salty, yeah, but I'll get over that part. How do I get over the complete loss of immersion? Have any of you ever lost immersion in a campaign like that, and if so, how did you fix it?

Thanks for reading.

[Batcathat]

I doubt your loss of immersion has any immediate "fix", if I were you I'd just keep playing and hope it builds back up. Obviously, that probably won't work if immersion breaking events keep happening, so if you haven't already, you should speak to the GM about your issues with what went down.

[Seto]

I think that's a side effect of being a long-time GM who's playing again, with a less experienced GM than yourself. I've experienced the same. I'm afraid the best way to get over it is to have a skillful GM who makes you forget about what's going on behind the curtain. Or just not try to care too much.

[Yahzi Coyote]

As always, first you talk. But only if you can do it without being salty. Try to imagine he just made a mistake, and wants to learn from it.

Let your DM know that the scene came off heavy-handed. A cut-scene is sometimes necessary; even in my entirely computer-generated sandbox world I've actually had to use at least 2 cut scenes to keep things moving. So make sure to convey that you understood the point was to introduce the BBG, but it could have been done with more player agency. Maybe the party witnesses him crushing some other, stronger force; maybe the party catches him doing something wicked and decides on their own to intervene, only to be brushed aside.

Then, resign yourself. Because even if he wants to do better, he's not gonna for a long time. If you find the game annoying, you should probably retire rather than subject yourself and others to constant dissatisfaction.

[Melcar]

I apologize in advance for rambling.

So, I've been playing in this campaign with some friends, after years of DMing but never getting to play. I was supremely excited, and we're all having fun. The DM is used to being a player and has very poor system mastery (like the rest of the group), but it's been going all right, and I've been having a blast.

Last session, the DM ran us into an ambush. Now, we're playing 6th level characters,low to mid-low OP, with very low WBL. We were ran into a 9th or 10th level Drow Wizard with a little support from centaurs. We were suddenly transitioned into a different area of the forest, and the enemy got a surprise round. No save, no listen check, no spot check - even though we were all actively looking and I had my owl in the air.

We got annihilated. Fireball in the face (rolling instead of set DC because that's what the DM is used to doing, so my 24 reflex save didn't help) for 30 damage each, plus arrows from the help. My glitterdust got dispelled easily, dude had boots of flying.

This was clearly a fight we were never meant to win, but we had no means of escape or of dealing with the enemy. He did a lot of damage to everyone and then commanded us to leave (no reason I can think of for not killing us or taking us captive, given context). I died to a barrage of magic missiles when I had 4 HP because the enemy was annoyed with me, but it got retconed to me losing 2 Con, forever.

This has led to my suspension of disbelief breaking completely. I just can't think of anything in in-world terms anymore. Now, all I can think is "I would have never done that/ there are better ways to introduce the power level of a villain/ complete helplessness should only be used rarely for narrative effect/ this is why we don't roll for spell DC/ this narrative is childish" etc, etc, etc.

I'm feeling salty, yeah, but I'll get over that part. How do I get over the complete loss of immersion? Have any of you ever lost immersion in a campaign like that, and if so, how did you fix it?

Thanks for reading.

In my experience its common for new DM's to make mistakes, like the one you mention. I would argue that to be a DM you need to have good system mastery or at least one player who has, so you can discuss things with him before hand. That might spoil a little bit of fun for him but improve the overall game.

My suggesting for your specific situation would be to talk to him in a friendly manner... Tell him how you feel...

Also, what do you mean by rolling for DC? The DC is fixed based on level and int modifier for the wizard=? DC for spells are 10 + spell level, + casting modifier, so I don't understand your comments on rolliing for a DC. Care to explain that?

[King of Nowhere]

I second the part about talking. removing player agency is a common mistake for new dm. then again, it is also possible he always meant you to escape heavily wounded and the encounter proved more deadly than planned. anyway, explain yourself and help him improve




Also, what do you mean by rolling for DC? The DC is fixed based on level and int modifier for the wizard=? DC for spells are 10 + spell level, + casting modifier, so I don't understand your comments on rolliing for a DC. Care to explain that?

I assume rolling DC means that the wizard casting the spell rolls 1d20+spell level + INT, and that's the DC for the saving throw. it's more swingy, for good and for bad.

[H_H_F_F]

Thank you all. I did talk to him, and I'm trying to get my head back in the game. We played another session yesterday, and I played as exhausted and shellshocked until an NPC helped me with some healing tea. Being brought back into the world in-game helped me get my head back into things. I'm still working on it. Thanks again.


I assume rolling DC means that the wizard casting the spell rolls 1d20+spell level + INT, and that's the DC for the saving throw. it's more swingy, for good and for bad.

Exactly.

[Vaern]

I certainly don't think you should be penalized for an unavoidable death from a surprise round by opponents 4 levels higher than you. If I was the DM in this scenario I may have fudged the numbers to drop you just under zero rather than kill you outright.
Either that or just owned up to it after the first accidental death, proceeded to wipe the party, and then ran with it for the next leg of the campaign: A journey their the afterlife to earn your resurrection and return more powerful than ever, ready to have your revenge.

[Morty_Jhones]

I certainly don't think you should be penalized for an unavoidable death from a surprise round by opponents 4 levels higher than you. If I was the DM in this scenario I may have fudged the numbers to drop you just under zero rather than kill you outright.
Either that or just owned up to it after the first accidental death, proceeded to wipe the party, and then ran with it for the next leg of the campaign: A journey their the afterlife to earn your resurrection and return more powerful than ever, ready to have your revenge.


I can see that and an EXSPERANCED DM would do that sort of thing. but I have had a newbie DM's do the same all the time. at lest he has show willing to talk it out, I have been on the end of it where the DM wasn't and when I tryed to say why I was disatisfiyed with his deshions it ended in him storming off.

[Melcar]

Thank you all. I did talk to him, and I'm trying to get my head back in the game. We played another session yesterday, and I played as exhausted and shellshocked until an NPC helped me with some healing tea. Being brought back into the world in-game helped me get my head back into things. I'm still working on it. Thanks again.



Exactly.

Never heard of that... why did you guys adopt that approach?

[Crake]

Never heard of that... why did you guys adopt that approach?

It's a rule alternative in UA, though it was intended for use by players, under the "players roll all the dice" variant, with NPCs instead having "save defenses" that function a bit like AC.

[Vaern]

It's a rule alternative in UA, though it was intended for use by players, under the "players roll all the dice" variant, with NPCs instead having "save defenses" that function a bit like AC.
IIRC that's the approach 4e took. Makes it feel more like you're actively attacking with a spell, as opposed to lazily throwing effects around for your target to actively defend against.

[Melcar]

It's a rule alternative in UA, though it was intended for use by players, under the "players roll all the dice" variant, with NPCs instead having "save defenses" that function a bit like AC.


IIRC that's the approach 4e took. Makes it feel more like you're actively attacking with a spell, as opposed to lazily throwing effects around for your target to actively defend against.

Huh... I've genuinly never heard of either... I can see it feel like you are being more active when casting spells... might be fun to try at some point. However, I do like when the DM rolls some things. So he doesn't have to call out for us to make a sence motive chech thus making the PCs know someones lying or a spot check when a rogue in near...