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The Giant
2006-02-13, 10:02 PM
New comic is up.

Gralamin
2006-02-13, 10:03 PM
I knew belkar was toying with Miko...

plus the return of the lead sheet.

Wait A SEC! That was a choatic act! it broke the law! she may not use Detect evil on a belkar. even a murderer has some rights.

ElfMaster2000
2006-02-13, 10:04 PM
I love it! And that would have been a dissapointing way for Miko to die... :D

Brasswatchman
2006-02-13, 10:04 PM
Not toying - playing might be more apt. Interesting that he didn't slit her throat while she was down. Would that count as Chaotic Evil behavior? - Not that I want to restart that whole Belker's-alignment discussion. I'm just wondering how other people play the alignment.

Healing_Hand
2006-02-13, 10:04 PM
Great comic, giant! :D

(Now, i like Belkar again. In one or two strips he seems a little to bad for me.)

Edit: I think it matches up with his alignment - he's doing everything that he enjoys and he has an evil sense for humor ;)

The Glitter Ninja
2006-02-13, 10:05 PM
Yay! Great strip. WANG! and BORED! being my favorite bits, of course.

I'm glad I'm replying before everyone gets all angry at Belkar for being nice and not killing Miko while she was unconscious after being WANGed.

enigma
2006-02-13, 10:05 PM
That was great. I'm wondering about Belkar though, because Miko can take him out easily, and that was pretty close to being her complete advantage after she woke up. At least he could have given her a critical wound.

Enigma

Gralamin
2006-02-13, 10:06 PM
Not toying - playing might be more apt. Interesting that he didn't slit her throat while she was down. Would that count as Chaotic Evil behavior? - Not that I want to restart that whole Belker's-alignment discussion. I'm just wondering how other people play the alignment.
Oh he is being very choatic and evil, evil becuase he wants the pain to continue, choatic becuase he wants to have fun at the risk of his life.

and belkar must of invested in the dash feet, to stay ahead of miko like that.

yuccadude
2006-02-13, 10:06 PM
The ever-useful lead sheet : )
Take that, utilitarian Paladin class powers!

WNxArrakis
2006-02-13, 10:08 PM
Thats chaotic for you. I still don't see how a lead sheet could deal all that subdual damage though. Oh well.

Detect Evil: Blocked by a lead sheet
Detect Evil Schemes: blocked by one's own mind.

Arrakis

Grey Watcher
2006-02-13, 10:09 PM
I want a multi-purpose lead sheet in my character's equipment list!

I love that Belkar beats Miko and all he does is whine about being bored. :-)

watermammal
2006-02-13, 10:09 PM
I couldn't be more pleased! I loved Belkar. Evil, mischivious, and now, compassionate purely for the sake of fun! Can Cafe Press sell lead sheets with Belkar's autograph?

Incidentally, one more point against Miko as she failed to realize he could have ended it then and there. Belkar, you are my hero.

Lyc
2006-02-13, 10:10 PM
And now we cue Yakkity sax from Benny Hill ;D

And who are the other seven dwarves in OotS land - Psycho, Crazie, Looney, Freaky, Goth, Bashie and Slashie.

Amalthea
2006-02-13, 10:10 PM
...I just don't see lead making such a WANG noise. :-/

Jaime
2006-02-13, 10:10 PM
Haha, WANG! Miko-1, Belkar-2.

Randomnesh
2006-02-13, 10:11 PM
Haha, great comic! Hooray for Belkar and his short attention span--and lead sheets, of course! ;D

Lyc
2006-02-13, 10:11 PM
...I just don't see lead making such a WANG noise. :-/
Ah, but was it the lead or Miko's head emitting the sound? ;D

whitemane
2006-02-13, 10:11 PM
"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow..."

ROFLMAO

Scion_of_the_Light
2006-02-13, 10:11 PM
Actually, my opinion of Belkar went slightly up in this comic. Slightly. Go, Miko, go!

The Glitter Ninja
2006-02-13, 10:12 PM
And now we cue Yakkity sax from Benny Hill

That would be perfect, of course.

Now I'm wondering where Belkar hid that lead sheet. Ow.

Devoured_Dude
2006-02-13, 10:13 PM
Stabby was always my favorite dwarf, too bad the jerks at Disney cut him out of the movie.

Hi ho! Hi ho! Pointy weapons I will throw... ;)

Tomada
2006-02-13, 10:14 PM
Oh he is being very choatic and evil, evil becuase he wants the pain to continue, choatic becuase he wants to have fun at the risk of his life.

and belkar must of invested in the dash feet, to stay ahead of miko like that.


And a barbarian level!

WNxArrakis
2006-02-13, 10:15 PM
The lead sheet must have REALLY decreased his ability to swim in the soup, now that I think of it..

Arrakis

Agthorr
2006-02-13, 10:15 PM
just of invested in the dash feet, to stay ahead of miko like that.

He took a level of Barbarian, giving him the Fast Movement extraordinary ability. He and Miko should have around the same speed.

iltharanos
2006-02-13, 10:15 PM
Absolutely hilarious comic, the single best moment being the uptight pally getting her ass handed to her by a lead sheet.

Woo.

theKOT
2006-02-13, 10:15 PM
Noooooooooo! Giant! Do you realize the buzz this is gonna create in the Fight's end thread?
That said, I dunno, I didn't really like this one that much..... probably because I'm such a Miko fan. I guess now Belkar has a huge advantage. Why didn't miko already take that potion? She could have taken it instead of talking. Sigh....

Gralamin
2006-02-13, 10:16 PM
Stabby was always my favorite dwarf, too bad the jerks at Disney cut him out of the movie.

Yo ho, yo ho, pointy weapons I will throw... ;)

Well he was forcefully removed, don't forget he refused to use plastic weapons and killed 2 camera men, he was a sanger to all who lived. And that is why the queen/witch is still alive!

Edit:



He took a level of Barbarian, giving him the Fast Movement extraordinary ability. He and Miko should have around the same speed.
but I think Miko's armor may slow her down a bit, which is why belkar is in the lead, I would at least rule that a halfling barbarian with clothes could outrun a human paladin with light/medium armor. Then again I've never tried on chainmail so I don't know.

Bilbo27
2006-02-13, 10:16 PM
Belkar is back. So is the lead sheet. Belkar has to win some points from someone for not offing Miko while she was down. I do believe he is toying with her, but how will it end? At least he is fully healed now. That makes for more fights!
Miko+Belkar+lead sheet=Priceless!!

boolean
2006-02-13, 10:19 PM
A minor nitpick: Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level spell. In 3.5 potions can usually only be made of spells up to 3rd level*. So, usually, there's no such thing as a potion of Cure Critical Wounds.

I guess Belkar just failed a spellcraft check. ;D

*(There are exceptions like the Master Alchemist prestige class from Magic of Faerun.)

Tomada
2006-02-13, 10:21 PM
Man, do I love Belkar even more now! :D

Maybe it's not for the right reasons, but he respected his fallen opponnent.

Corestimah
2006-02-13, 10:22 PM
Wang!

Bored!

Stabby!

ROTFL

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

WNxArrakis
2006-02-13, 10:23 PM
A minor nitpick: Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level spell. In 3.5 potions can usually only be made of spells up to 3rd level*. So, usually, there's no such thing as a potion of Cure Critical Wounds.

I guess Belkar just failed a spellcraft check. ;D

*(There are exceptions like the Master Alchemist prestige class from Magic of Faerun.)


Assuming of course you're not using NWN rules, in which case you can :D. Considering there's lawyers, five feet bowls of soup, and so on, the Giant can be given the benefit of the doubt in this case.

Lyc
2006-02-13, 10:24 PM
A minor nitpick: Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level spell. In 3.5 potions can usually only be made of spells up to 3rd level*. So, usually, there's no such thing as a potion of Cure Critical Wounds.
Unless it is a house rule item or legacy item from an older edition. Then of course there is the ultimate horror - it was really a philther of love Miko was intending to slip in Roy's gruel.....*dun dun DUN*.....

iltharanos
2006-02-13, 10:26 PM
Unless it is a house rule item or legacy item from an older edition. Then of course there is the ultimate horror - it was really a philther of love Miko was intending to slip in Roy's gruel.....*dun dun DUN*.....


Except that it managed to heal Belkar's wounds. :P

Gefangnis
2006-02-13, 10:26 PM
Haha! Most excellent.

WANG!

theKOT
2006-02-13, 10:30 PM
Something I don't get: If Miko could beat the entire Oots, then she could probably kill belkar. Why would he put his life at such risk just for fun?

AmoDman
2006-02-13, 10:32 PM
:o Could it be?

A love interest!

Belkar, with his Chaotic and Evil ways. Miko, with her Lawful and Good. *cue Odd Couple theme music*

Tomada
2006-02-13, 10:33 PM
Something I don't get: If Miko could beat the entire Oots, then she could probably kill belkar. Why would he put his life at such risk just for fun?


'Cause he is Belkar Bitterleaf, THE Halfling. And is there just for the joy of killing! (and EXP!!!!!)

The Giant
2006-02-13, 10:33 PM
Something I don't get: If Miko could beat the entire Oots, then she could probably kill belkar. Why would he put his life at such risk just for fun?

If you need to ask, then you'll never understand Belkar. 8)

Gralamin
2006-02-13, 10:33 PM
see the end of the fight thread thank you for that outburst.

Edit: 3 way simu post o.0 I better quote who I was talking to:

:o Could it be?

A love interest!

Belkar, with his Chaotic and Evil ways. Miko, with her Lawful and Good. *cue Odd Couple theme music*

Grunjon
2006-02-13, 10:34 PM
Oh, man, that was TOTALLY worth...the wait! ;D

Great job, Giant. Superb! I can't wait to see how this plays out...

theKOT
2006-02-13, 10:36 PM
'Cause he is Belkar Bitterleaf, THE Halfling. And is there just for the joy of killing! (and EXP!!!!!)
He could have killed her there. It would have been pretty legitimate to.



If you need to ask, then you'll never understand Belkar. 8)
I guess I don't. I can understand maybe him tying her up and tormenting her, but I don't see why Belkar would want her to chase him unless...(Insert spoiler from fight thread here)... Because he can't have wanted her up and fighting fit because of honor or anything like that.

Evik
2006-02-13, 10:36 PM
All hail the Multi-Purpose Lead Sheet!
hmm Belkar should be able to run faster now with out all that lead.

Tomada
2006-02-13, 10:36 PM
I'm flattered. I posted the same minute the Giant did!

hehehe

Ok, but now, EVEN IF Miko wins, her victory will be tainted by the 'mercy' of a psycopathic halfling

Lyc
2006-02-13, 10:37 PM
Except that it managed to heal Belkar's wounds. :P
Mix potion of cure serious/cure crit and a PoL, roll on the potion miscibility table, hope to hell you dont roll 01, bottle and leave lying around for some unsuspecting adventurer to go "Oh wow, cure wounds potion. I so need that. Great wounds are now healed, now to kill that...that...that.....Oh, um...did I every say the moon brings out your eyes Miko.....:-*"

Lesson 6 to new adventurers: Never drink mysterious potions unless you know what it is. And NEVER believe what the label says.

Elkarbay
2006-02-13, 10:37 PM
If you need to ask, then you'll never understand Belkar. 8)

Haha, ain't that true.

"Luckily it's a multipurpose lead sheet"
Gotta love that. That's something I would try, no doubt.

So yea...Go Belkar...WANG!

BurntOfferings
2006-02-13, 10:38 PM
Something I don't get: If Miko could beat the entire Oots, then she could probably kill belkar. Why would he put his life at such risk just for fun?
Well, in the first fight, Belkar was surprised by Miko's class feature (not the stick, the other class feature), and forgot that he could just stab the horse with his daggers (albeit with a -4 on the attack roll). In the second off-scene fight, he was surprised by Miko's sudden assault, and was repeatedly stunned and smited. So this is the first time he's fought her when he was actually ready.

I refrained from posting about house-ruled (or misidentified) potion until someone else did. Hooray for self-restraint! One of my gaming partners was once in a 3e campaign with potions of heal, so it could be worse. Just as well, they were fighting clay golems, and had no cleric (remember, this was 3e). :o

Ugly_Panda
2006-02-13, 10:42 PM
Just like Belkar to fight dirty just for the fun of it. That was just awesome, he had a chance to coup de grace, but he didn't because it was just too easy. Before I thought Belkar was just a sociopath, but now I'm fan.

theKOT
2006-02-13, 10:47 PM
Well, in the first fight, Belkar was surprised by Miko's class feature (not the stick, the other class feature), and forgot that he could just stab the horse with his daggers (albeit with a -4 on the attack roll). In the second off-scene fight, he was surprised by Miko's sudden assault, and was repeatedly stunned and smited. So this is the first time he's fought her when he was actually ready.

Gaaah! How does everybody but me know what happened in that offscene fight? Did the Giant describe it? Help!
Anyway, I think that her being able to take on a party of 6 adventurers at his level at once more than makes up for that.

gooddragon1
2006-02-13, 10:47 PM
:o Could it be?

A love interest!

Belkar, with his Chaotic and Evil ways. Miko, with her Lawful and Good. *cue Odd Couple theme music*

Love of the halflings leaf? Slowed Mind? No Wits to see it?

iltharanos
2006-02-13, 10:49 PM
Mix potion of cure serious/cure crit and a PoL, roll on the potion miscibility table, hope to hell you dont roll 01, bottle and leave lying around for some unsuspecting adventurer to go "Oh wow, cure wounds potion. I so need that. Great wounds are now healed, now to kill that...that...that.....Oh, um...did I every say the moon brings out your eyes Miko.....:-*"



Perhaps, except he still seems bent on having his way with her (not THAT way, the way with the stabbing, not THAT stabbing, the other stabbing with the dagger, not THAT stabbing with the dagger ... er, ya know what I mean). ;)

Demosthenes
2006-02-13, 10:52 PM
I think he is waiting.. waiting for her to do something to lose her paladin serviceStatus

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-02-13, 10:53 PM
Perhaps, except he still seems bent on having his way with her (not THAT way, the way with the stabbing, not THAT stabbing, the other stabbing with the dagger, not THAT stabbing with the dagger ... er, ya know what I mean). ;)

What other stabbing is there aside from the blood drawing kind?

Loved the comic, even if Belkar didn't make his coup de grace.... eh, Miko would haved saved most likely.... still quite a bit of damage

nightfire8199
2006-02-13, 10:58 PM
nice comic giant i really like it...

ElfLad
2006-02-13, 11:00 PM
Heh, I liked this comic. Belkar finally looks awesome.

I'm still rooting for Miko though.

Tanikova
2006-02-13, 11:01 PM
What other stabbing is there aside from the blood drawing kind?



The kind of stabbing that ends up with about 6 weeks of bleeding 9 months later - at least for miko as a woman

The_Shrike
2006-02-13, 11:02 PM
WANG is the vibration of the lead sheet, duh

manscatha
2006-02-13, 11:03 PM
Belkar really is the perfect opponent for Miko. Just as she is more Lawful than she is Good, he is obviously more Chaotic than he is Evil.

And that, I think, is what makes him a character I can still root for, from time to time. (Not that I care either way who wins this battle...)

(And no, I don't want to start up any arguments about alignment...)

Imbicatus
2006-02-13, 11:04 PM
You know, I always imagined Miko with a more pleasant speaking voice, but from now on she will sound like Mrs. Crabtree in my mind.
" I said, I look forward to cutting out you pancreas, you facist cow."
Priceless.

Now all Belkar needs to do is make Miko eat her parents and the journey toward South Park will be complete.

Winter_Wolf
2006-02-13, 11:06 PM
"Why didn't Belkar finish 'er off?"

Well, Belkar's not the sharpest tool in the shed, you know. He's a ranger with a wisdom score too low to cast and kind of spells. It might simply not have occured to him to end it there.

But more realstically, Belkar's got an ego big enough for any three dragons. He'd never be happy with the game if it ended so easily. I'm sure he thinks it's all a big game, and like any proper evil character, he's rigged the game.

Solara
2006-02-13, 11:08 PM
Ok, but now, EVEN IF Miko wins, her victory will be tainted by the 'mercy' of a psycopathic halfling

Of course the ironic thing is that she doesn't even seem to realize he could have killed her. Stunned MOMENTARILY, yeah right! :D Of course, I don't think it was really "mercy" so much as the realization that if Miko was dead she couldn't be frustrated and infuriated anymore.

And I have nothing else constructive to add, but I'll just say that I love that psychotic little ADD midget even more now! This is now my all time favorite Belkar comic, he just doesn't get solo scenes often enough. :)

fwiffo
2006-02-13, 11:09 PM
Way to go, Belkar!

With any luck, the little psychopath might actually succeed in keeping the company as Order Of The Stick, and not as Order Of The Stick Up The Ass.

Gralamin
2006-02-13, 11:10 PM
Gaaah! How does everybody but me know what happened in that offscene fight? Did the Giant describe it? Help!
Anyway, I think that her being able to take on a party of 6 adventurers at his level at once more than makes up for that.
yes he did someone probaly saved it.

evnafets
2006-02-13, 11:10 PM
Gaaah! How does everybody but me know what happened in that offscene fight? Did the Giant describe it? Help!
Anyway, I think that her being able to take on a party of 6 adventurers at his level at once more than makes up for that.

In fact the giant did describe it.
Its in Order of the Stick: November II Reply 488 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1132340412 ;start=488)

Pvednes
2006-02-13, 11:14 PM
Something I don't get: If Miko could beat the entire Oots, then she could probably kill belkar. Why would he put his life at such risk just for fun?

If Miko dies, Belkar can't hurt her anymore.

iltharanos
2006-02-13, 11:19 PM
If Miko dies, Belkar can't hurt her anymore.

Perhaps Belkar is waiting to off Miko when he's got someone else around to witness his offing Miko, since he doesn't want a repeat of http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=42

soni
2006-02-13, 11:21 PM
huh huh huh.. the lead sheet said 'wang'... huh huh huh


Miko obviously has no respect for the law- she cast Detect Evil on Belkar even though she was served with an injucntion against casting it on Belkar...

maybe Celia can have her hauled into jail for violating that restraining order... heh

Tawkis
2006-02-13, 11:24 PM
Fifth Page!! Woot


Belkar is great, and who says he has no honour....

infiniteviking
2006-02-13, 11:26 PM
Hahahahaha! I agree with Belkar -- Miko's funnier alive than dead.

Her ego is clearly as healthy as his... each lives in a little self-created world and ignores whatever facts don't fit in. Setting them at odds was an act of genius. Great comic!

Deuce
2006-02-13, 11:27 PM
Nice! Loved it.

NOW this is getting interesting. :)

Zargon
2006-02-13, 11:33 PM
Love it! One of my favorites in the last while!
Second panel, Miko wasn't about to fall for the trap again!
The lead sheet. From the same place as familiars. And other things that aren't being used right now.
Miko looks pretty heavily injured. I guess she was out of lay on hands, otherwise she would have used it by now. Perhaps her poor health made her more vunerable to be knocked out (not just stunned) for quite a few rounds (or that was one heavy sheet of lead sneak attack!).
See - helmets are useful for more than putting a cool pair of horns!
Panel 5 - Belkar continues to bitch about the S class for halflings.
Panel 6 - Belkar true nature. It has to FUN to be worth it. (ps. and he also loves an audience). Lots of comics show that. His sense of fun, is kinda fatal for others. But in this case, I suspect his end game is for Miko to be defeated somehow, especially humiliated and if possibly for her to lose her power and he'd probably would love the rest of the Oots to see that he did that (he thinks, for the most part correctly so, that they are on his side about Miko - especially after the last time she beat their group). Killing her now would be like him killing that goblin ninja all by himself... and nobody noticed...
Belkar checks her inventory and finds the potion - his heart is into fun killing, desire for thievery doesn't appear to be more than the basics (unlike Haley).
Knife tossed at her, deliberately handle side to wake her up.
Next to last - Miko thought she was just stunned! Hmm... wait 'til she looks for that potion.
Last panel - I think Miko heard what he said! And Belkar is happy again!
I'm done! Loved the strip!

edit: oh...
If their positions were reversed, I suspect that Miko would do the coup-de-gras (especially in her state of mind). Mr chaotic-evil, nope!

theKOT
2006-02-13, 11:33 PM
In fact the giant did describe it.
Its in Order of the Stick: November II Reply 488 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1132340412 ;start=488)

Thank you! That has annoyed the heck out of me. I guess the Giant never really had a Belkar-Miko faceoff then....

PhoeKun
2006-02-13, 11:35 PM
I'm not sure what to say. Belkar has my grudgin respect right now, enough that I won't be sad if he lives. Frankly, I'm not sure how I feel about that. Lousy Giant and his amazing writing skills...

Just... to everyone saying (again), that Miko should fall, please review the Paladin class one more time.

Silivren
2006-02-13, 11:37 PM
huh huh huh.. the lead sheet said 'wang'... huh huh huh


Miko obviously has no respect for the law- she cast Detect Evil on Belkar even though she was served with an injucntion against casting it on Belkar...

maybe Celia can have her hauled into jail for violating that restraining order... heh

Unless, of course, Shojo had the restraining order lifted, or it was only valid in the jurisdiction of the kingdom of Somewhere...

Kanashimi
2006-02-13, 11:38 PM
totally awesome. I can't believe he didn't take the opportunity to slit her throat while she was stunned. Kinda makes you wonder who is the cat and who is the mouse in the situation.

Facist cow... Ha!!!

The_Weirdo
2006-02-13, 11:40 PM
This was the best strip ever... Belkar humiliating Miko, absurd weapons, random CN craziness... Giant, I'll sacrifice a goat to you because of this strip! (Sacrifices, as per Book of Vile Darkness, add to a test to gain power...) :D

xyzchyx
2006-02-13, 11:44 PM
It's obvious

Belkar wants Miko to commit an act that will cause her to lose her paladinhood.

*THEN* he'll finish her the first chance he gets.

Jothki
2006-02-13, 11:44 PM
Unless, of course, Shojo had the restraining order lifted, or it was only valid in the jurisdiction of the kingdom of Somewhere...

Or if Miko is letting her anger overcome her reason...

Nasrudith
2006-02-13, 11:52 PM
Great comic but the wang sound effect?

kyrin
2006-02-13, 11:54 PM
It could very well be that Miko has just a few hp left, if the subdual damage from a lead sheet could take her down. It would have been cool if the sheet had had a dent in it. :D

Nice job as always, Giant.

JIM
aka kyrin

somatic
2006-02-13, 11:55 PM
Belkar... not evil?

How could someone who is evil not take advantage of that situation? Or maybe that's not the way he wants to kill her? Or maybe he wants to make her fall instead of just killing her? Or maybe he has some larger plan that she needs to be alive for? Gah!

Still, it would have been a harsh and definitely un-funny way to kill someone, so I'm glad he didn't.

Galad
2006-02-13, 11:58 PM
This strip made me little sad actually, I don't believe Miko would have shown as much mercy towards Belkar :-/

Then again, I might be wrong about her. But great great strip, one of my favorites.

Starbuck_II
2006-02-13, 11:59 PM
Belkar... not evil?

How could someone who is evil not take advantage of that situation? Or maybe that's not the way he wants to kill her? Or maybe he wants to make her fall instead of just killing her? Or maybe he has some larger plan that she needs to be alive for? Gah!

Still, it would have been a harsh and definitely un-funny way to kill someone, so I'm glad he didn't.

Evil does not mean kill if you can. Even good kills if it can (if enemy, etc).

Evil means you don't care about killing morally (unless family or friends as it says in PHB).
Morally, he has no issue killing her, but he is out for fun only.

I vote for making her fall first:
Be careful when you look into the abyss: the abyss doesn't look back.
Or something like that (forget how quote goes)

So did Belkar keep the potion or throw it away?

Edit: Thanks Kish, I missed that first look over comic. You get a cookie.

Kish
2006-02-13, 11:59 PM
He drank it.

Aser
2006-02-14, 12:00 AM
Fantastic, Rich. I laughed harder at this strip than at any other. Belkar really has Miko's number, but it seems she has his, too.

Perhaps it's not LOVE, but purely perfectly opposite personalities. Without the mitigating factor of comraderie.

Rage. Revenge. Spite. Go, Hollywood movie!!!!

theKOT
2006-02-14, 12:02 AM
This strip made me little sad actually, I don't believe Miko would have shown as much mercy towards Belkar :-/

The strip makes it pretty clear that Belkar wasn't doing it for mercy's sake, but was simply out to have fun. I still think it is stupid of him....


Belkar is great, and who says he has no honour....
Me and Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270)

Mr Croup
2006-02-14, 12:07 AM
Not to nitpick, but in the last panel, everyone's favorite halfling psychopath says, "I said, 'I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow.'"

Shouldn't that be "I said, 'I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow.'"

First time poster, part time fascist grammarian.

Annalia
2006-02-14, 12:08 AM
Totally fantastic!

I must agree with the loss of paladinhood theory but I think it should be put as spoiler...

Anyway, hooray for the multifunctional lead sheet!

Erimore
2006-02-14, 12:09 AM
OK, my first post, but I absolutely love this strip.

Not only does it show Belkar's obvious intelligence, perfect understanding of the gaming rules, and showcase his obvious chaotic nature, but it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Evil would have performed a coup de grace without a second thought.

Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.

Giant, I rank this issue as the best since...well...I think evilgasm...which I still chuckle about.

Wang...*LOL* Oh I gotta use that.

xyzchyx
2006-02-14, 12:09 AM
Not to nit pick, but in the last panel, everyone's favorite halfling psychopath says, "I said, 'I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow.'"

Shouldn't that be "I said, 'I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow.'"

First time poster, part time fascist grammarian.
Apparently, you have a very different definition of nitpick than the rest of the world. :)

Finwe
2006-02-14, 12:14 AM
ROFL at the whole comic, but the Snow white comment definately takes the cake.


Definately the best since "Evilgasm"

Pvednes
2006-02-14, 12:15 AM
The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

theKOT
2006-02-14, 12:16 AM
Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.

Blood mural, Kidney harvesting, Selling people into slavery, slitting throats, attempting to kill party members for XP... The Giant made a detailed list of reasons why Belkar is evil. I don't have the link, but I am sure someone else here does.

The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.
It's all deep-rooted emotional problems.



Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.
See the post I just quoted.

Galad
2006-02-14, 12:16 AM
The strip makes it pretty clear that Belkar wasn't doing it for mercy's sake, but was simply out to have fun. I still think it is stupid of him....


Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.

Devils_Advocate
2006-02-14, 12:24 AM
Some people are still criticizing Miko for violating the court order against Detecting Evil on Belkar? Look, the whole point there was that it wasn't within her rights as his captor to violate his privacy. Belkar isn't her prisoner at the moment, he's a fugitive. A law enforcement officer is entitled to do things to stop a fleeing killer that she isn't justified in doing to an accused criminal who goes with her willingly. Such as using lethal force, for example. Wouldn't it at least make more sense to first address whether it's OK for her to do that? Unless you're saying that determining someone's alignment is a greater violation of his rights than stabbing him with a sword. ::)

EDIT: And that's without even going into the fact that they're now under the jurisdiction of Azure City, not Somewhere. It strikes me as likely that Shojo would give his paladins a lot of leeway to use their powers as they see fit. Why wouldn't he? Out of fear that they'd be corrupted by too much unchecked authority? They're paladins.


Belkar really is the perfect opponent for Miko. Just as she is more Lawful than she is Good, he is obviously more Chaotic than he is Evil.
Quoted for insightfulness.


I guess I don't. I can understand maybe him tying her up and tormenting her, but I don't see why Belkar would want her to chase him unless...(Insert spoiler from fight thread here)... Because he can't have wanted her up and fighting fit because of honor or anything like that.
Belkar likes a challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206) He doesn't try to avoid tough battles; to him, they're an incentive. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139) After all, it's no fun if there's no chance of failure. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) Of course, as Belkar points out, he's not suicidal, so he's willing to swing the odds in his favor. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270) Which he did here by taking the healing potion, thereby both restoring himself and depriving his enemy of a valuable asset. He doesn't want to swing his odds of success all the way to 100%, though. A game you can only win isn't exciting, just as a game you can only lose is pointlessly frustrating. And to Belkar, life is a game. Probably Grand Theft Auto.

"Why would he risk his life just for fun?" (Sorry, forget who asked that.) Belkar would probably respond, "Why NOT risk my life if it means I get to have fun?"

Make sense now? See, Belkar isn't the sort of Chaotic Evil that goes around kicking puppies. He's the sort of Chaotic Evil that assaults professional wrestlers several times his size, tears out their internal organs with his bare hands, turns to the shocked onlookers and proclaims, "Awww yeah. I am one tough, bad-ass ************."

Fillbert
2006-02-14, 12:26 AM
Not killing her fits in perfectly to his greater scheme of humiliating her and causing her fall from paladinship (or is it paladin-hood). Evil dosen't always just kill for killing's sake, misery, torture and cruelty are alot more fun when they are still alive to experience them. ;D

PhoeKun
2006-02-14, 12:30 AM
Still he spared her. Do you think Miko would have done the same thing? I doubt it.

I know you weren't talking to me, but yes, I think Miko would have spared him in that situation.

I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall. Of course, to listen to some people, a Paladin would Fall for breathing (thereby killing millions of innocent microorganisms).

Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?

theKOT
2006-02-14, 12:36 AM
Belkar likes a challenge. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206) He doesn't try to avoid tough battles; to him, they're an incentive. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139) After all, it's no fun if there's no chance of failure. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) Of course, as Belkar points out, he's not suicidal, so he's willing to swing the odds in his favor. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270) Which he did here by taking the healing potion, thereby both restoring himself and depriving his enemy of a valuable asset. He doesn't want to swing his odds of success all the way to 100%, though. A game you can only win isn't exciting, just as a game you can only lose is pointlessly frustrating. And to Belkar, life is a game. Probably Grand Theft Auto.

"Why would he risk his life just for fun?" (Sorry, forget who asked that.) Belkar would probably respond, "Why NOT risk my life if it means I get to have fun?"

Make sense now? See, Belkar isn't the sort of Chaotic Evil that goes around kicking puppies. He's the sort of Chaotic Evil that assaults professional wrestlers several times his size, tears out their internal organs with his bare hands, turns to the shocked onlookers and proclaims, "Awww yeah. I am one tough, bad-ass ************."
Thank you. I guess the Giant was wrong, because whereas I didn't understand that then, I do understand Belkar now. Very good points throughout your post. Also, I was the also the person who posted the other comment.

I get it now. However, I am still unhappy because a fully healed Belkar vs a badly hurt Miko seems to be way off-balanced given the way he handled a fully healed Miko. Still, she could have beaten him if she wasn't so idiotic as to simply stop talking and start drinking that potion/attacking. I think that Miko is pretty much beat now, Although I can't see how Belkar simply defeating her then running away will further the plot, unless Miko was never intended to be anything other than an annoying character who remained static throughout her time in Oots, which I doubt. So I think that something is in store for these two, but I have no clue what.

AmoDman
2006-02-14, 12:38 AM
The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.

Ahem. I believe you mean lasers and sharks. No bad guy execution plan is ever complete w/o the suffix, and sharks.

Devils_Advocate
2006-02-14, 12:40 AM
Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?
It's not a matter of ideals. I think that very few people here, if any, regard Belkar as a better person than Miko. They just like him more. The fact that these are fictional characters has a lot to do with it, as does the fact that they resemble characters people have seen played in actual gaming sessions. (Who do you like more, the player with the charming, surprisingly cooperative Chaotic Evil character, or the player with the obnoxious, overbearing Lawful Good character?) I don't think a lot of people would be rooting for the "Belkar" in a showdown between similar people in real life.

jmucchiello
2006-02-14, 12:41 AM
Ahem. I believe you mean lasers and sharks. No bad guy execution plan is ever complete w/o the suffix, and sharks.
Are they evil sharks?

Maxymiuk
2006-02-14, 12:43 AM
I know you weren't talking to me, but yes, I think Miko would have spared him in that situation.

I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall. Of course, to listen to some people, a Paladin would Fall for breathing (thereby killing millions of innocent microorganisms).

Last time we saw Miko, people were saying she was terrible for smiling. Now Belkar gets praised because he might have a devious plan to strip a woman of her very livlihood? I don't get it. Are my ideals that much different from everyone else's?

a) As was already established, Belkar spared her for fun, not for honor. And we're not praising him (or at least I'm not). We're enjoying his egotistic ways.

b) Did you mean smiling or smiting? In any case, lighten up. This isn't real life. Miko isn't a real person, and neither is Belkar. It's a comic strip. It's supposed to be funny. And it's no one's fault that 95% of all humor is cruelty.

Having said that.... WANG!

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-14, 12:50 AM
The difference is that Miko would slice Belkar neatly in two right away, because she sees that it needs to be done, while Belkar doesn't want to give Miko a quick death, he wants to savour it--cause as much suffering as possible, humiliate her, and see her accept defeat.

It's the same reason the villains in James Bond movies don't shoot the guy when they have the chance, but go for elaborate machines involving lasers after telling him their evil plans and gloating a lot.


I always figured that the villains did it in Bond movies partly out of the sadism of beating the best agent M16 had, and partly out of killing him. Belkar seems to just go for the sadistic angle without much need to kill her: she's a plaything to him now. As to how who dies, who knows?

I'd enjoy tormenting someone like this in a game, too. I just don't have the patience to pull it off in a D&D setting. It's kind of like camping with a railgun or repeatedly hitting someone with the tranq gun in Perfect Dark 1: they may eventually they'll get you, but it's fun as hell to see them bitch and moan about your incredibly cheap tactics while helpless. (On the other hand, I also like being chased by the Perfect Dark "Slayer" guided missile. I'm such a masochist. ;) )

He could have done a lot more than just take a potion from her when she was out. He could have drawn on her face, tied her laces together, or taken her money. But the chase goes on!

somatic
2006-02-14, 12:58 AM
I'm absolutely baffled by the response to this comic. Belkar performs the first honorable act in his life, and people are praising him, just not for doing the right thing. Instead, its because they are just that much more certain he has a clever plan to make her Fall.

Exactly!

Er, wait... I'm not sure I understand :P

...where was I? Oh yeah. GO BELKAR!

Mike_G
2006-02-14, 01:00 AM
Dude.

Belkar rocks.

He didn't coup de grace because that would be no fun. He yells "BORED!" when she won't fight any more.

This battle is cool. He's the guy who went ot fight the ogres because he loves the "thud" they make when they hit the ground.

Fighting Miko is a blast. He'll kill her if he can, but only if it's any fun. He in no way acted out of honor or mercy. He wants to keep playing.

It's like when a cat catches a mouse, then lets it go so it can catch it again. Once you break the mouse, where's the joy?

Go, little buddy!!

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-14, 01:22 AM
Observation: Belkar is a lot like Wolverine. He multiplies his badass factor by 1.5 when fighting on his own. The difference is that, unlike Logan, the Belkster demands an audience. =D

ElfLad
2006-02-14, 01:27 AM
Belkar is in no way being merciful here. When it comes down to torture vs. painless killing, torture is more evil.

It would have been funny (in a juvenile, sophomoric way) to see Belkar draw a mustache on Miko before waking her up.

Lianae
2006-02-14, 01:28 AM
You gotta love Belkar! ;D ;D ;D

retnuhytnuob
2006-02-14, 01:36 AM
Still, she could have beaten him if she wasn't so idiotic as to simply stop talking and start drinking that potion/attacking.

I don't know why people keep saying this... The comic has already established that talking is a free action and takes no time. (except when it is particularly verbose, as in 186 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=186))

While here... Is/was Sojo a paladin? In 272 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=272), the lawyer states that "Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense." Maybe I missed something... (like Sojo being an exception to that rule) but I believe he did tell the secret... or did he?

theKOT
2006-02-14, 01:38 AM
She could't have taken that potion while walking? I'm unfamiliar with D&D rules....

Annalia
2006-02-14, 01:40 AM
It would have been funny (in a juvenile, sophomoric way) to see Belkar draw a mustache on Miko before waking her up.

:o . I definitly have to agree on this. The simple idea makes me laugh out loud. Imagine the drawing!

Quixote
2006-02-14, 01:44 AM
Wait, did Belkar just hit Miko with his enormous 'wang'?

???

Anyway, there's definitely a correlation between how evil someone is and how easily they get bored. I blame television for short attention spans, and I blame evil for television, so it's all kind of circular.

PhoeKun
2006-02-14, 01:45 AM
She could't have taken that potion while walking? I'm unfamiliar with D&D rules....


She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.

Devoured_Dude
2006-02-14, 01:46 AM
This is no time to be lying around, Miko! You've got a psycho halfling to chase, get the lead out!

redmind0
2006-02-14, 01:46 AM
Belkar w/ commpasion/mercy
Miko w/ hate/rage

theKOT
2006-02-14, 01:50 AM
Belkar w/ commpasion/mercy
Miko w/ hate/rage

That is completely accurate and shows that you have read the other posts in this thread. I bow to your skills of reasoning and comprehension.



She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.
Aha! Thanks. Actually, he has already answered it in his FAQ. Characters make stupid choices for humor/the plot's sake.

Liquid
2006-02-14, 01:51 AM
Belkar FTW!!!

:)

Great Strip...maybe number 2 since Miko came. (Number 1 would be "If in doubt set it on fire").

Vengeful_Hand
2006-02-14, 01:57 AM
I haven't laughed out loud (but merely chuckled) at this strip since the infamous flaming sake incident. Belkar has just won this duel in my mind. He is trashing Miko, healed himself, and is no worse than he began. She is STILL talking too much. He was right. Less talk, more standing up.

See? Belkar is a many-faceted personality. He not only enjoys ruthless killing, but he's also a sadist who hates to kill a worthy foe because it means no more tormenting fun. :)

Bakta
2006-02-14, 01:57 AM
One trusty bonking throwing knife : 1gp*
One multi-purpose lead sheet : 3gp*
The way an uptight paladin looked lying on the ground wanged : PRICELESS





* prices subject ot change without notice

Karkadinn
2006-02-14, 02:15 AM
I got a serious Roadrunner/Wile E. Coyote vibe off of this one.
It was sadly predictable that Belkar would get the ultimate upper hand... as another poster said, even if Miko wins now, it'll be a tainted victory.
But it was worth it, I think, because it did a good job of rebalancing Belkar back towards being a fun, entertaining character, instead of just a cold-blooded psychopath.
This page also showcases the lack of Wisdom on the parts of BOTH characters, which is why they make perfect foils for each other. Miko is intelligent, but she lacks the empathy with others to visualize Belkar's thought process and see the lead sheet attack coming. (I personally think it was a crit.) Likewise her inability to understand who and what Belkar is prevented her from realizing that he had spared her life... it goes against her view of him, and so she has to rationalize it as not having happened. It's also possible that she feels overconfident in this matchup because she took Belkar out so easily in their previous fight.
I found it really interesting that Belkar didn't kill her. Obviously it was unwise, and thus in character, to spare her life (and especially to wake her up), but more importantly, it indicates that Belkar has a special grudge or other kind of feeling towards Miko. She's more than just a chunk of xp to him now, which isn't something that we can say about any of the other antagonists save her mount, which is pretty much an extension of her anyway. I don't think he really has an explicit plan for her, though, other than taking every opportunity possible to piss her off. Planning to make her fall from paladinhood is a bit more intricate thinking than I think Belkar makes use of on a regular basis. He doesn't seem to hate her enough to really want to try something that dastardly, either... he's just in it for cheap laughs.
Unless I'm forgetting some pages, the fight has gone like this... Belkar sets her aflame, Miko makes him fall into soup, Belkar knocks her out with lead sheet. Thus, Miko is arguably due for her turn of tactical superiority for the next page of the fight. Time will tell if I'm right or not.

Faryn
2006-02-14, 02:19 AM
Belkar is my Hero

nough said! =P

Gogo Multipurpose Leadsheet ^^

Rei_Jin
2006-02-14, 02:23 AM
I'm surprised something like this didn't happen sooner. Belkar's been in chains or locked up ever since the explosion at the inn. He HATES being restrained in any way, shape, or form. At the moment, he is free. He might be on the run from a crazed paladin, but he's on the run, and he's loving the challenge of it.

So let's do the Belkar checklist of things to do today.

1. Kill someone, and escape from prison: Check
2. Set Miko on fire: Check
3. Run around and annoy Miko: Check
4. Humiliate Miko: Check
5. Cause Miko to break the law: Check
6. Steal Miko's stuff: Check
7. Beat Miko with an audience: Not quite yet...

Corolinth
2006-02-14, 02:23 AM
I read over Giant's rundown of the comic #251 fight and noticed something. Part of Miko's key to winning was Belkar failing his Will save against stunning fist due to having a crappy Will save modifier.

Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which Belkar has in abundance.

Duskrider_Moogle
2006-02-14, 02:23 AM
I really don't get how the sheet knocked her out. Must be a house rule, getting hit with a lead wang knocks you out, and if you question it you have to make a saving throw vs. DUH.

Midnight Son
2006-02-14, 02:26 AM
So just how big a Wang is it going to take to actually knock that stick out?

Tetsusaiga
2006-02-14, 02:26 AM
hehehe, multipurpase lead sheet ^_^

xrestassuredx
2006-02-14, 02:39 AM
Awesome comic! Belkar is evil, it's been established, but he's only evil because of his low wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58). I don't think Belkar has any plans of killing Miko; he wants to see her humiliated and maybe lose her paladinhood, and to have fun while doing it.

... I'm not sure chasing Belkar around the roof until he made himself fall off the edge qualifies as "tactical superiority" ...

Particle_Man
2006-02-14, 02:41 AM
This reminds me of that comic where the Joker spared an unconscious Batman because Batman fell unconscious due to someone else, and Joker wanted to beat Batman's intellect with his own madness.

dragonfly83h
2006-02-14, 02:56 AM
Hooray for the lead sheet.

And go Belkar. Go!

Great comic, Giant. One of the best IMO.

nick012000
2006-02-14, 03:02 AM
If I were in Belkar's shoes there (or lack thereof) I would have gone and either urinated or ejactulated onto Miko, simply to see her face when she wakes up. ::)

Methuselah_Amakiir
2006-02-14, 03:08 AM
I wish my halfing thief could conceal a lead sheet like that, he'd be invincible. Or at least, un-evil-detectable.

humanpylon
2006-02-14, 03:09 AM
OK, my first post, but I absolutely love this strip.

Not only does it show Belkar's obvious intelligence, perfect understanding of the gaming rules, and showcase his obvious chaotic nature, but it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Evil would have performed a coup de grace without a second thought.

Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.



Right because of course good characters NEVER coup de grace a fallen opponent. Belkar just wants to torment her some more.
And he's shown a lot more evil than disdain for humans:
1. killing enemies who had surrendered
2. suggested selling Samantha into slavery (which he admitted having contacts for)
3. suggested killing the dirt farmers

A lot of other actions could be open to debate, but those are pretty evil.

Crap! I promised myself i wouldn't get involved in the alignment debate again!

Illsbane
2006-02-14, 03:14 AM
This was a great installment, but left me feeling a mite suspicious. Is it possible that Belkar's just found something he enjoys doing more than killing, i.e. tormenting and battling a foe he despises more than anyone else? If so, Miko has just entered Belkar's House of Pain ... for the rest of her life, if she gets added to the party, which I'm starting to suspect will happen.

saraswati
2006-02-14, 03:16 AM
<trying to ignore above mental picture> ???

Loved this one! Don't know why people are speculating that Belkar is keeping Miko alive so that he can force her to do something to fall from Paladinhood in the future. My theory is that we just saw him do it in this strip.

Think about it, a paladin whose code of ethics includes hunting down those who remove the tags from mattresses? That's a code which requires you stick to the letter of the law. No excuses. ever. No matter what reasoning Miko can supply as to why she might feel justified in using detect evil in this fight, she clearly violated a court order that she knew was in place. No detect evil on Belkar. Period.

If Belkar has any wits he will : (spoiler protected) run immediately to the guards and report her. Sure, he gets taken back into custody. But he's just vengeful and evil enough to want it. Maybe he thinks he can escape again. If Belkar is supremely lucky, he will run her right into the trial room, where she can be judged by the BPLG. That will be evilly ironic!

Welll, that's one possibility. We will have to see what bizarre twist and turns the Giant throws at us. :D

I admit, I love Belkar as a character, and find myself pretty annoyed by Miko. But I really can't believe that Belkar spared Miko out of mercy, or guilt. No, he has a bad plan, even if that plan is just that he wants Miko to be concious to recognize her defeat.

I think he is due for some punishment for his evilness, but I hope he survives to entertain us in the future.

BTW. Loved him snarking her potion! LOL!

Mordeus_Dire
2006-02-14, 03:19 AM
Belkar is evil. Accept it.

Still, his enjoyment of inflicting pain (physical and psychological) probably saved Miko's life, so she should be grateful for his chaotic evilness.

Hehe, "Stabby" the 8th dwarf, I love it!

It should be noted that these Miko vs Belkar strips seem to attract the biggest crowds from people posting.

Valiena
2006-02-14, 03:22 AM
I do not think that letting Miko go is something Belkar would have done. He has shown his bloodthirstiness in the past, and fun or not, letting Miko live is not in his idiom. I was disappointed. It is rare, but disappointed with this strip I was.

PhoeKun
2006-02-14, 03:23 AM
*snip*

*Ahem*


A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin powers...

Note the emphasis. Paladin codes have some room for leeway, and one chaotic act (even if this was one) does not shift you out of Lawful Good.

No. Loss. Of. Paladin. Powers. Period.

... Sorry, I'm more than slightly frustrated at this point by the various fallacies regarding Paladins, and I don't remember the Miko FRC thread covering this new event.

EDIT: Darn thing posted before I typed anything. Go figure.

EDIT 2: Improper elipsis. I'm ashamed of myself

warmachine
2006-02-14, 03:51 AM
If Miko can be knocked out with one hit, she must be down to her last few hit points as she hasn't taken subdual damage so far. Miko is on the brink of losing.

Unless, of course, the author is using artistic license again.

kerberos
2006-02-14, 04:01 AM
it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Nonsense. Belkar is Evil, he's not showing mercy simply entertaining himself. Immediately rescind this vile slander or I will be forced to harvest your kidneys.

Sebastian
2006-02-14, 04:18 AM
A minor nitpick: Cure Critical Wounds is a 4th level spell. In 3.5 potions can usually only be made of spells up to 3rd level*. So, usually, there's no such thing as a potion of Cure Critical Wounds.

I guess Belkar just failed a spellcraft check. ;D

*(There are exceptions like the Master Alchemist prestige class from Magic of Faerun.)

it was an old potion from the second edition, ( he say that Miko was saving it, didn't he?)

Yehomer
2006-02-14, 04:27 AM
Be careful when you look into the abyss: the abyss doesn't look back.
Or something like that (forget how quote goes)


When one is fighting with monsters, one should look that he himself doesn't become a monster. When you gaze long in the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Loved the strip. Seeing Belkar humiliating Miko is much better than just seeing him cutting her throat.

Opposed to what people say, coup de gracing your enemies is not something a paladin should do. A paladin shouldn't kill her enemies when they're down, because then she would be no better then them. She should take them to trail, thus enforcing law and not performing an evil act (killing defenseless enemies when you have other choises is evil, or at the very least neutral)

Kingrat
2006-02-14, 04:33 AM
I cannot believe this!

Belkar actually has some sort of plan!! I didn't think he would be one to think that far ahead!!!!

iltharanos
2006-02-14, 04:35 AM
Opposed to what people say, coup de gracing your enemies is not something a paladin should do. A paladin shouldn't kill her enemies when they're down, because then she would be no better then them. She should take them to trail, thus enforcing law and not performing an evil act (killing defenseless enemies when you have other choises is evil, or at the very least neutral)

So if a paladin comes across a pillaging ogre that she reduces to unconsciousness she should take the ogre back to a court of law for trial?

What about evil outsiders invading through a portal from the Abyss?

Rampaging goblin hordes?

Does the paladin take all of these back to trial if she has the option to?

Sebastian
2006-02-14, 04:35 AM
My theroy on why Belkar didn't off her (and I don't think it count as spoilers)

we have an anomaly here, Belkar is a chaotic evil ranger/barbarian played by a good(not alignement-wise but as in quality) player. he is trying to play his character as CE but without disrupt the game too much, we could even say that Belkar is played by a True Roleplayer (you can see it in other situation as his sub-par choice of classes/race, but that make are appropriate for his character to take, or when Miko joined the group when he tried to find a reason for why his halfling wanted to stay around a stuck up paladin) while Miko is played by a munchkin (playing to the letter rather than the spirit of the paladin, she don't care if she ruin the other players's game, well, unless she is a DMPC, that's it).
So that's why Belkar didn't killed Miko today. He knew (maybe metagaming) that this would have ruined the game, so he found a reason for his character to not kill her.

Aeek
2006-02-14, 04:43 AM
"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas, you fascist cow..."

ROFLMAO

as cover for the muttered "See, this is more like it now."
Most people would say them the other way round.

AtomicKitKat
2006-02-14, 04:44 AM
Heh. I would have rearranged her armour. Maybe put it back on her upside down, and then when she wakes up, she'll be thinking "Oh crap, what did that sick little freak do to me?!" ::)

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-14, 04:48 AM
My pet theory is that Miko's the DM's girlfriend who he JUST introduced to D&D. Originally she was only going to play his BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) NPC, just to cut her teeth on the game, but she begins to take a liking to the character, bats her eyes just so and SHAZAM Miko is now a PC and subject to all rights & privelages thereof. Huzzah for useless theories AND run-on sentences!

Kish
2006-02-14, 04:58 AM
When it comes to theories on the Order's (+Miko's) hypothetical players, I liked Lily's version best (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1129265322 ;start=28#28).

Reaver225
2006-02-14, 05:04 AM
Couldn't the WANG have stunning damage? Instead of subdual?

On further testing, being hit on the head sounds more like 'WHANG' rather than 'WANG'
(actually 'WHANGingringringringring')

My personal feeling is that the most evil thing for Belkar to do is to NOT kill Miko, but escape back to the courtroom where he is ordered to rejoin the rest of the OOTS to fix the RIFTSworld campaign... Leaving Miko to fume in rage...

Yehomer
2006-02-14, 05:10 AM
So if a paladin comes across a pillaging ogre that she reduces to unconsciousness she should take the ogre back to a court of law for trial?

What about evil outsiders invading through a portal from the Abyss?

Rampaging goblin hordes?

Does the paladin take all of these back to trial if she has the option to?


All you did was show a bunch of cases where a paladin is most likely unable to take them back to trail. Theoretically, if he had an option to take the above to trial and imprisonment without risking himself or anyone else, then yes, he should have done that. The fact that it is nearly impossible to do that does make it legitimite to kill them. However, in this case, if Miko had Belkar unconcious, and in a castle full of guards, she doesn't have any problem doing that.

A paladin's priority is innocent life, then her life and then the criminal's life. She shouldn't go out of her way not to kill the criminal, but if she has a choise with little to no risk to herself than it would be non good to kill him.

Cap_Hardman
2006-02-14, 05:45 AM
Hey! When they first met Miko the reazon they lost was because of the rain (Thor's drunk game) that ruined V's concentration and Haley's arrows... and Elan had an injuried arm.

How did Miko defeated then later Without rain and Elan capable to fight?
http://ninja-free-pic-videos.abum.com/file/shadow/animations/11503.swf

Karellen
2006-02-14, 06:14 AM
Ahh, Belkar, Belkar, how I love thee. "Fascist cow". :snickers:

Darius Midnite
2006-02-14, 06:24 AM
Oh my gentle jesus!
That sure was an outstanding strip...
It didn't lack anything...it was so worth waiting for!
A fine job Giant..a fine job..

Nikolai_II
2006-02-14, 06:30 AM
She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.

It does take an action to pick up the potion from it's pocket - possibly a full-round action if it is fairly hard to get at. It then takes a second action to drink it, which can also be interrupted. As far as Miko knew such a long pause could have led to Belkar growing bored and escaping, what with his hide and move silently scores.


I read over Giant's rundown of the comic #251 fight and noticed something. Part of Miko's key to winning was Belkar failing his Will save against stunning fist due to having a crappy Will save modifier.

Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which Belkar has in abundance.

Unless he has house-ruled it into a Will save ;)
And Belk could have failed anyway.. it would only me significantly worse luck (quite unlikely, but still possible).

Delgarde
2006-02-14, 06:37 AM
I do not think that letting Miko go is something Belkar would have done. He has shown his bloodthirstiness in the past, and fun or not, letting Miko live is not in his idiom. I was disappointed. It is rare, but disappointed with this strip I was.

Actually, I think it's perfectly in character, for several reasons.

Firstly, while he's evil, he's also chaotic, and I think the latter influences his character more than the latter does. Chaotic defines what he is, while evil is simply the flavour of his character. Anything he does is because he enjoys it (or someone is forcing him to do it).

Second, he's still evil, but killing defenseless individuals doesn't seem to be his thing. He'll do it, but that's no fun - he'd much rather they were aware of it and trying to fight or flee. Killing an unconscious foe simply isn't worth doing, no satisfaction.

Finally, because Miko is a special challenge, and he's not going to let that end so easily. He's made his intentions pretty clear to all as to paladin powers, and while I don't think he's setting her up for "fallen paladin" status, I think he's got a pretty good chance of getting her to do something she'll have to atone for. That's why he didn't end it when he had the chance - and why at every possible opportunity, he's making sure she stays angry.


Besides, as someone else said, Belkar has the ego to match the worst dragons combined. He's obviously confident that he's got the upper hand, so why quit now?

FreeloadingSausage
2006-02-14, 06:51 AM
Am I the only one who thinks that NEITHER Miko NOR Belkar really want to kill each other? Maybe it's just because I've been privy to quite a lot of inter-player dueling recently, but it seems to me that we've got an annoyed player with a paladin (I like the GM's girlfriend idea postulated before) and an annoying player with his loon halfling who's running around using his +2 to Dex to confound his opponent with sneakiness and AC.

I think what we are seeing metagame wise is one player intentionally busting the other player's chops by proving that his theoretically weaker halfling can beat a japanophile's samurai-paladin. I've seen this sort of thing quite often.

Regardless, I really don't think that Miko is acting like someone who wants to kill Belkar, I think if she did, we'd be seeing more smiting, and Paladin spellcasting (or at least some poke-mount summoning) and less dancing around getting three stooges type punishment from a crazy stab-happy loon.

Heck, with the kind of property damage Belkar is causing, Miko would be well within her rights to just call the rest of the guards. She's already beaten Belkar quite bad before I don't think she needs to salve her pride that much, especially when it comes down to allowing a criminal to escape.

I strongly disagree with the idea someone stated earlier of Miko being a twinked out paladin, I think that she proved her innocence of power-gaming with the purchase of the cross-class skill survival (we all know that cross-class is the death of min-maxing)

I think (though I'm almost definitely over-thinking here) that the GM is introducing a new player (like I said, the GM's girlfriend idea sounds like fun), and before the game, he (or she) talked to the player and told them they'd probably need to take some skills in survival in order to fit in with the story he was building for them. Think about it, why wouldn't the early scenes with hooded Miko be short glimpses for the players of a character in the creation process? Leaving of course the possiblity of her remaining hooded until she was fully finished with the character-creation process as a metaphor from a GM on top of things as being far too geeky.

Regardless, I have to say that if Miko truly wants Belkar dead, she's doing a rather poor job for someone who walked into the midst of dozens of ogres, then camly sliced the leader into pieces. Not too mention that she is no dunce when picking tactically superior ground.

No I'm afraid that it looks like the age-old PvP moment in a game, where the GM is trying to get the exposition out, and the gamers just aren't cooperating.

Think about it. Miko's player already knows the info, so she doesn't even have to be there. Belkar's player doesn't care. He's exactly the type of player to go into a quest where he's supposed to be saving someone, and think that he's supposed to kill the people he's supposed to save, because he was too busy playing with his dice when the GM explained the quest. So Belkar broke out of prison right before the GM managed to bring in his exposition posse, and so the poor GM is trying to explain what the over-arching story is to the patient gamers, while Belkar's player starts trying to bring Miko's player into a duel.

Of course Belkar doesn't coup de grace Miko, that would make one very unhappy player, and one very unhappy GM!

However, even if you disagree with my metagame theory, you have to admit that Miko and Belkar are acting more like an exagerated Laurel and Hardy than two raging enemies. I don't see anything like the kind of personal corps-a-corps violence and pain we'd expect from two bitter rivals. I see a wacky rooftop chase and SOUP for crying out loud! Even the OOTS GM seems to have a falir for drama when it's appropriate, and this doesn't feel like a climactic battle that brings such an important NPC (assuming Miko is an NPC) to her grave. This feels like Player generated comic relief and shenaniganery.

Belkar personally trying to make Miko fall? Don't make me laugh.

Belkar's player trying to prove that his crazy mixture of spry ranger, and tough barbarian can take out the utterly martial paladin? That makes much more sense.

Besides, we all know that these PvP rivalries tend to form the closest in game bonds. I'll bet Miko and Belkar will be working together in the future! (I still don't think Belkar is utterly Evil, just a little misguided (alignment in DnD is, after all, based on actions, and not personal philosophy, i.e. a nice, personable cannibal is as evil as a raving psychotic murderer))

I could be wrong, but I don't think this fight will end in tears. I don't think the Giant would find either chracter's death, or the loss of Miko's whole world through a fall from Paladinhood terribly funny, whereas longstanding, ongoing "ooh you wascally wabbit" are much more appealing to a Comedy crowd.

What can I say, I have faith in Miko's PC-ness.

Down with NPC Miko! Long live PC Miko!

PS: Paladins aren't Jedi. No one says they can't be angry. No one even says they can't be violently angry.

Delgarde
2006-02-14, 06:53 AM
Note the emphasis. Paladin codes have some room for leeway, and one chaotic act (even if this was one) does not shift you out of Lawful Good.

Ok, so looking at what the PHB has to say about the code of conduct...


A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Agreed, manipulating Miko into losing her paladin status isn't a trivial matter. However, it *is* Belkar's apparent goal, and he seems to know to approach the problem - by getting her angry and keeping her that way, encouraging her to act recklessly.

Prediction:
I think his best chances are either to get her to do something undeniably evil - e.g cutting down someone who gets between her and Belkar - or to get her to act against authority, such as defying an order from Shojo. Neither of them are something she'd normally do, but if he's got her angry enough, I can see either of them happening.

Adeptus
2006-02-14, 07:15 AM
Yey! Belkar is my hero :D

Major difference between Belkar vs. Miko.

Belkar has a great sense of humor. Miko has none (I have a relative like that, literally)

Go Belkster! How can anybody not like him? He amoral more than evil. A child of nature

Norri_Windwalker
2006-02-14, 07:24 AM
Muhahahaha one of the best strips ever ;D ;D ;D

Enjoyed every single panel! Great great work!

plommon
2006-02-14, 07:31 AM
"Best epissode Ever!!"

Go Giant!

Cireneg
2006-02-14, 07:58 AM
I still don't think Belkar is utterly Evil, just a little misguided (alignment in DnD is, after all, based on actions, and not personal philosophy, i.e. a nice, personable cannibal is as evil as a raving psychotic murderer
You couldn't be more wrong. Alignment in D&D is and always has been about personal philosophy. The fact that most players have lost sight of this is the source of most misconceptions about alignment.

The only time actions come into play is when a particularly heavy-handed DM doesn't realize that people are not perfectly consistent in regards to alignment and decides that a perceived punishment is easier than attempting to understand.

Blaznak
2006-02-14, 08:08 AM
Once again, a worthy chuckle! Go Belkar Go!

Marller
2006-02-14, 08:22 AM
This reminds me of that comic where the Joker spared an unconscious Batman because Batman fell unconscious due to someone else, and Joker wanted to beat Batman's intellect with his own madness.
Something similar happened in the Batman TAS. Harlequin manages, with a relative simple trick, to catch Batman. Hangs him heads down, with a pool full of piranhas below him. Batman wakes up and goads her into phoning the Joker. He tells her not to kill him until he is there, arrives and knocks her out (i think). Then he takes Batman down apologizes for the terrrible conduct and promises to make it better (reaching for his weapon) but gets slugged by Batman who tells him that he knew wouldn't allow anyone else to kill him because he wants to do it himself.

chibibar
2006-02-14, 08:56 AM
hehe.... Belkar must have taken a few level in taunting :) cause Miko is soooooo pissed she is not even thinking straight :)

Chronomancer
2006-02-14, 08:58 AM
Simply a great Comic, like most of the OOTS strips.

Keep up the good work!


One thing I simply can't understand:
Why are so many people arguing about rules, alignments and realism?
This is a Comic, the Giant is its creator. What he decides happens. Period.

Who cares if a lead sheet goes "wang", "yoink" or whatever?

Actually I'd really like if the Giant made a strip that breaks at least 10 different D&D Rules.
The word of the DM is the Law, not the rulebooks. Players who frequently argue about the rules actually get kicked out of my campaigns. ;)


Had to get rid of that, hope that I made my point clear without offending anyone. Quite difficult to find the right "tone" in a foreign language. :)

MagFlare
2006-02-14, 09:00 AM
Belkar personally trying to make Miko fall? Don't make me laugh.

He's already said that's one of his goals. And while it's extremely possible that Belkar is playing with Miko solely for short-term entertainment, it's also possible that he's planning to use this opportunity to make Miko lose her paladinhood. If he intends to do it, now's a great time: they're both alone, which means she has no help from her fellow guards and he's not being held back by his team's stupid ol' "morals," and while she's chasing him, he's the one who's clearly in control of the situation.

Furthermore, I don't think Miko would have to do something astonishingly evil like murder an innocent in order to fall. While it might take a seriously evil act for a 100% Lawful Good paladin to lose his or her powers, Miko doesn't act like she's 100% Lawful Good. She acts like she's teetering between Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral.

***NOT SPOILERS, SERIOUSLY, JUST IDLE FAN SPECULATION***

It might be that desiring revenge over justice would be enough to make her slip into Lawful Neutral territory. Perhaps she'll have Belkar at her mercy, gloat a little bit, tell him how much she'll enjoy his death, and when she goes to Smite Evil... nothing.

Heh heh.

Overlord Jack Chainer
2006-02-14, 09:33 AM
Belkar you kick so much i mean he could have easily owned miko but weres the honor in that? See miko belkar does have honor or else he would have straight up stabbed you and laughed at you while you died.... *coughs* i dont think i have ever said 'you' so much but thats ok.

Nyax
2006-02-14, 09:43 AM
OK, my first post, but I absolutely love this strip.

Not only does it show Belkar's obvious intelligence, perfect understanding of the gaming rules, and showcase his obvious chaotic nature, but it proves to me that he is definitely NOT evil.

Evil would have performed a coup de grace without a second thought.

Besides, the only "evil" he has truly shown is a absolute disdain for humans...and that is not evil.

Giant, I rank this issue as the best since...well...I think evilgasm...which I still chuckle about.

Wang...*LOL* Oh I gotta use that.



Belkar IS evil : http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1132340412 ;start=501 in the 501st post the Giant says it! Belkars alignement is CE there is no doubt about it.

Edit: Oops somone said it before me... Anyway it sure is one of the best strip! Go belkar!
Me want multi-purpose lead wang sheet! (we need stats for that item)

Alfryd
2006-02-14, 09:57 AM
New comic is up.
Hilarity factor 8.4. I don't exactly know whether this redeems or condemns Belkar. Might it even be interpreted as... *shudder* an honourable act? Lawful, quite possibly. Better watch out there, Belkster. Once you start down the exalted path, forever shall it dominate your destiny...

The other odd thing is that Miko could quite possibly have gotten in (at least) a partial action during panels 3 and 4, when she appeared to be in melee range of Belkar. Is she enjoying this too?

However, even if you disagree with my metagame theory, you have to admit that Miko and Belkar are acting more like an exagerated Laurel and Hardy than two raging enemies.
See under 'comic strip.'

Belkar's player trying to prove that his crazy mixture of spry ranger, and tough barbarian can take out the utterly martial paladin?
Think 'cannibal pygmy headhunter.' I was confused for a while too. :)


Oh he is being very choatic and evil, evil becuase he wants the pain to continue, choatic becuase he wants to have fun at the risk of his life.
I suppose that is also a valid interpretation. Though leaving a prone enemy with a weapon and all appendages intact at some risk to yourself still seems rather suspicious to me...


I love that Belkar beats Miko and all he does is whine about being bored.
Could he have managed a Coup de Grace? Hmm, Stunned apparently doesn't count as Helpless by the SRD definition, but by all appearances Miko was Unconscious. But I doubt her HP were so low, or you can deal Subdual damage with a lead sheet.
Yeah, I think we're looking at 'Rich makes up something plot-convenient' here, like handily decapitating a Lich so he can't adequately react to being hurled bodily into a magical sigil.


Stunned MOMENTARILY, yeah right!
It looks like about 2-3 rounds.

The comic has already established that talking is a free action and takes no time.
One round is 6 seconds. It takes a certain amount of time to deliver a given amount of conversation, and both parties were apparently motionless.


What other stabbing is there aside from the blood drawing kind?
O-oh, this is my poleaxe and this is my sword, I use this in battle and this when I'm bored!


...And to Belkar, life is a game. Probably Grand Theft Auto.
Quoted for insightfulness.

I think that Miko is pretty much beat now...
Nonsense. As far as we know, she's down one Smite Evil and possibly a CLW. Belkar may not have even gotten full benefit from the potion, as he wasn't especially heavily injured to begin with. Miko may still have LoH, for upwards of 30 points of healing, a CMW and CSW, and still has better saves and AC. Belkar might still have to contend with 60+ points of Smiting Evil and 2 extra attacks/round. He has an effective Attack Bonus 3 points higher during Rage, plus Favoured Enemy. This may have just about evened the odds.

Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which Belkar has in abundance.
Burlewe: "Oh no! I violated D&D canon! Look what you've DONE! I"M MEEEELTING!!! MEEEELTING!!!"

Unless, of course, the author is using artistic license again.
I suspect so.
Posted by: PhoeKun

Sorry, I'm more than slightly frustrated at this point by the various fallacies regarding Paladins, and I don't remember the Miko FRC thread covering this new event.
Then PLEASE post your addition there. I completely forget otherwise.


Does the paladin take all of these back to trial if she has the option to?
Where practical, yes. it could probably be managed in Belkar's case. Of course, he can be killed resisting arrest.

Lasombra
2006-02-14, 10:02 AM
hehehehe i always loved belkar :P i might have to carry around a lead sheet with all ym chaotic-evil halflings in future :)

Caledonian
2006-02-14, 10:06 AM
Giant could also delete the word 'am' from Belkar's phrase, making it grammatically correct. It's the combination of "am look" that's the problem, and deleting the incorrect part of the shortened "I'm" is easier than adding '-ing' to 'look'.

Sebastian
2006-02-14, 10:25 AM
She could have quaffed that potion at any time. Why she didn't is a mystery only the Giant can solve... or not, at his leisure.
There are many reasons for why she had drink that potion, for example:

-She wasn't wounded enough, if you are down of 15hp and you have a potion that heal 4d8 (I don't remember how much CCW heal) it could be a waste to use it)

-lay on hands is replenishable for free, potions are not, expecially a valuable AD&D2ed-era CCW potion.

-to use a potion could be seen as external healing and she kinda swore to not do that.

Dark_Stalion
2006-02-14, 10:31 AM
I'm still laughing, Giant. that was the best commic (comedy wise) in a while (I think for me since thog killed larry guardener). Belkar so clearly has an evil plan up his sleave to make her fall. Ok, now going to scan other posts to see if there ...

Ok there are too many posts to read, so you'll have to excuse me if I am repeating someone fairly late on in this but I can't believe that no one has said it out right as far as I have read.

HE IS TRYING TO MAKE HER FALL!

Strip 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206) is where he states his intention and I doubt he would consider killing a paladin as evil as making her fall. If you have ever read Rich's articles on how to deal with alignment as a PC, he says that you should make your character go along with the group while giving reasons that fall under that character's alignment. By drawing out the fight in this way, Belkar hopes to cause Miko to fall, he may even have a plan to cause such an occurance. That the player is doing is preventing him from killing Miko and getting the Oots into even more trouble reflects what Giant conciders good practice and may even be subconcious decision on Giant's part. So there are reasons IC and OOC for not killing Miko, while still alowing Belkar to be Evil.

theKOT
2006-02-14, 10:55 AM
Nonsense. As far as we know, she's down one Smite Evil and possibly a CLW. Belkar may not have even gotten full benefit from the potion, as he wasn't especially heavily injured to begin with. Miko may still have LoH, for upwards of 30 points of healing, a CMW and CSW, and still has better saves and AC. Belkar might still have to contend with 60+ points of Smiting Evil and 2 extra attacks/round. He has an effective Attack Bonus 3 points higher during Rage, plus Favoured Enemy. This may have just about evened the odds.
Well, some have theorized that Miko's HP must be really low in order to be knocked out by the sheet. But once again, my lack of D&D knowledge(I've never played) comes back to haunt me. From a non-player's perspective, Miko is badly wounded(given the wounds I can perceive) and therefore must be out of healing techniques while Belkar is fully healed(again, that is just how it looks) and has basically owned her up to this point. I don't think that from that perspective Miko has much hope, but if the rules say otherwise...whatever.

GeekDaddy
2006-02-14, 11:01 AM
Now THAT'S a great strip! And so totally in character with Belkar. It makes you wonder, does the cat get dissapointed when the mouse it's playing with stops moving?

Alfryd
2006-02-14, 11:03 AM
Well, some have theorized that Miko's HP must be really low in order to be knocked out by the sheet... ....I don't think that from [a non-player's] perspective Miko has much hope, but if the rules say otherwise...whatever.
From a non-player's perspective, Miko may just be conserving her healing (which she does mention) for when she really needs it. The whole HP-subdual thing I covered.
I'm moderately familiar with the SRD, but don't much play myself.

Y'know, on reflection, that concussion must have lasted rather longer than 2-3 rounds. You may be right.

On further further reflection, I have duly upgraded my hilarity estimate to 8.6.

captheather
2006-02-14, 11:05 AM
Didn't read all the posts, but I thought this was a great one. Belkar's really holding to his alignment. After all, chaotic eveil should delight in causing a character pain. He's taken that feat of Craft Disturbing Mental Image, so surely he also likes causing Miko the mental anguish of chasing him around and not defeating him. I mean, coupe de'grace, how boring. I mean, honestly, Miko would just die, and I believe Belkar wants to torture her, not just kill her. Sure he might still be trying to get her to fall as he previously owned up to, but I really think he's enjoying this too much to take an easy victory where Miko wouldn't even really know how badly she got beaten.

I like playing chaotic characters, though not evil ones. But I can appreciate a well played evil character. My favorite was in a one shot campaign where there was a CE character masquerading as a paladin of good and light. It was hilarious to watch him cause mayhem behind all the characters backs while we just naturally assumed that anyone claiming to be a paladin was one. Belkar reminds me a little of the types of things that character did.

Kudos to the Giant for stimulating happy gaming memories!

ravenkith
2006-02-14, 11:18 AM
Belkar just 'wang'ed Miko. So wrong.

Way to go Giant. Personally I love the way the slapstick fight is progressing simultaneously with the courtroom drama. It really leavens out the comic.

It's pretty clear, after re-reading the right strip, that Belkar's 'game', as far as this side-trip to Azure City, is to kill a few people under the nose of a paladin and get away with it, preferably making her fall in the process.

He said it himself, right before they came here. Then again, in that same comic he also described himself as a law-abiding upstanding citizen. Which we all know he is not.

How he's going to achieve his goals, I'm not sure and would hesitate to guess, but he has gotten her very angry.

While angry != evil, when a person is angry, they don't think straight, it can be easier to manipulate them.

Keep in mind that Miko was unconscious, at the mercy of Belkar, and Belkar has the 'craft disturbing mental image' feat.

SOOOOOO many options.

I also agree that Belkar is probably very desirous of having an audience to see his victory, and I think he learned the value of planning ahead (at least a little) when he failed to protect the spellcasters.

Lastly, Miko wasn't saving that potion: I'm pretty sure she was considering it as 'healing from an outside source', which Belkar already conned her into foregoing.

The reason that Belkar is winning (he has more health, is up 2-1 currently) is he is playing to his own strengths, while turning Miko's into weaknesses.

She has such a deep sense of honor, he uses it to keep the fight between the two of them, and restrict her healing.

She expects to track him down, only to find it's a decoy.

She expects one thing from the lead sheet, only to get something different.

He strike from the shadows.

He is nimble (doesn't he have high ranks in tumble in one strip? Can reduce height of a fall by using tumble...) and smart (uses available resources), if not wise.

There are a lot of wecomics out there, but few of them are as well thought-out and creative as OOTS.

Baldknight
2006-02-14, 11:20 AM
HAHA! The lead sheet returns, and now it's multipurpose. ;D

Fantastic stuff I can't wait to see how this fight ends.

Ebon_Drake
2006-02-14, 11:27 AM
Miko, Miko, MIKO! when will you learn? When Belkar does something strange do NOT just stand around scratching your head wondering what's going on, especially at close range. Did you learn nothing from when he set you on fire?! She's lucky Belkar wants to see her beg for mercy, otherwise her kidneys would be well on their way to the black market by now.

That said: Belkar, Belkar, BELKAR! Ok, I appreciate your twisted sense of sportsmanship and the healing potion was a good call, but yeesh, you didn't even disarm her, let alone make with the stabitty. Jeez, you'd think this is being written as a... comedy or something. ;)

As an aside: lol! Miko's now been called both skinny ass and fat ass.

Lady_Orc
2006-02-14, 11:38 AM
I love Belkar. *huggles halfling* And big YAY for the multipurpose lead sheet! ;D

sniffles
2006-02-14, 11:40 AM
Oh, dear, I see a sudden spate of discussion on various D&D boards about the amount of damage a sheet of lead can do... :D

What a great comic! ;D

DukeP
2006-02-14, 11:41 AM
Priceless. Simply.

The Giant is back. ;)

~~DukeP~~

theKOT
2006-02-14, 11:46 AM
Y'know, on reflection, that concussion must have lasted rather longer than 2-3 rounds. You may be right.

On further further reflection, I have duly upgraded my hilarity estimate to 8.6.
What do you mean by that? That the Giant is letting Belkar win for comedic purposes or what?

That being said, I'm thinking that this fight now won't be resolved b a defeat/killing, but will be interupted somehow. Stupid anticlimax... grumblecakes,

Alfryd
2006-02-14, 11:53 AM
What do you mean by that? That the Giant is letting Belkar win for comedic purposes or what?
Broadly speaking, yes. Frames 7-10 seem to be snapshots of activity at different time intervals, while Belkar is just standing there.

RBloom0566
2006-02-14, 11:54 AM
All this talk about finishing Miko off while she was down from the lead sheet...not entirely accurate, I believe.

If I'm not mistaken, the most Belkar could've accomplished would've been a round or more of some wicked sneak attack damage for Miko being stunned and deprived of her Dex Bonus to AC.

A Coup de Grace' could not have been executed as "stunned" does not count as completely defenseless for purposes of finishing off a foe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will try.

GIANT -
In a word...EXCELLENT!

theKOT
2006-02-14, 11:56 AM
All this talk about finishing Miko off while she was down from the lead sheet...not entirely accurate, I believe.

If I'm not mistaken, the most Belkar could've accomplished would've been a round or more of some wicked sneak attack damage for Miko being stunned and deprived of her Dex Bonus to AC.

A Coup de Grace' could not have been executed as "stunned" does not count as completely defenseless for purposes of finishing off a foe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure someone will try.


It has been argued that she was unconcious, not simply stunned.


Broadly speaking, yes. Frames 7-10 seem to be snapshots of activity at different time intervals, while Belkar is just standing there.
Yeah, I thought that might be it. Oh well, I guess anticlimax is what the Giant had planned all along. By that I mean that now neither can be killed nor defeated but will be interupted somehow....

Supagoof
2006-02-14, 12:04 PM
Simply perfect.

WANG! - had to add my two cents to the amount of WANG being displayed upon the YaBB.

Belkar has his multiple reasons, thought I suspect the giant could go many ways with this.


If the breaking the "detect evil" law holds true, then Miko will lose her Paladin status, and probably have to do something grand to regain such a status, such as help the OoTS protect the other gates (which may come as a results of the trial.)

If Belkar runs into the courtroom, he'l likelyl be taken prisoner again, but it will be like a criminal going to jail rather than getting shot - a way of avoiding the penalty of death.


If the statement "one must commit many evil acts in a row without any good in order to be aligned as evil" holds true, then why not for the same for good. "One must commit many good acts in a row without any evil in order to be aligned as good." If Miko does one thing that is "questionably" wrong, everyone roots for "NO PALADIN STATUS", which given that this is the Giant's playground, is not something any of us can influence. We can nitpick all we want, but the definition of Good and Evil in this playground is entirely up to the Giant. Don't get me wrong, I love what Belkar is up too, but I'm not ready to jump on the Paladin must die, or even be tortured relentlessly, wagon yet.

Wang, steal, stabby, awaken - repeat cycle as needed.

WANG! ;D

garylian
2006-02-14, 12:17 PM
My pet theory is that Miko's the DM's girlfriend who he JUST introduced to D&D. Originally she was only going to play his BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy) NPC, just to cut her teeth on the game, but she begins to take a liking to the character, bats her eyes just so and SHAZAM Miko is now a PC and subject to all rights & privelages thereof. Huzzah for useless theories AND run-on sentences!

OMG, I played with that chick. Flashbacks, and not to 'Nam!

Freeman333
2006-02-14, 12:17 PM
Now THAT'S a great strip! And so totally in character with Belkar. It makes you wonder, does the cat get dissapointed when the mouse it's playing with stops moving?

Ever seen a cat play with a dead mouse? It sits and waits, waiting for the mouse to do something, and when nothing happens, it bats the dead body up into the air, swats it down again, knocks it across the floor and chases it down. Cats--like Belkar--are geniuses when it comes to manufacturing their own entertainment.

That said, I don't see Belkar as having much of a plan in this situation--at least not any "plan" that extends beyond the next few minutes. Belkar is oriented totally around doing what is most pleasing at the immediate moment, regardless of long-term consequences. Causing Miko to lose her class abilities would be a laff and a haff, sure, but in Belkar's mind the only laughs that matter are those coming in the immediate future, and why waste time and energy planning farther ahead than that when the immediate future is going to be so much fun? He just wants to extend the challenge as long as he can, further establishing his superiority in the most meaningful way. After all, as we've seen, Belkar's only drive besides visceral pleasures is to prove himself however he can (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125). To do that effectively, you need A) an audience, and B) a meaningful challenge. Otherwise, how will anyone ever know how awesome you are?

And, on a completely different point, has the Giant secured the rights to the "Wang" property from the Penny (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/10/11) Arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2000/09/22) people? I smell a lawsuit...

Jefepato
2006-02-14, 12:38 PM
While here... Is/was Sojo a paladin? In 272 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=272), the lawyer states that "Azure City law clearly stipulates that telling anyone this secret is a criminal offense." Maybe I missed something... (like Sojo being an exception to that rule) but I believe he did tell the secret... or did he?

Shojo is the ruler of Azure City, in both a secular and religious context. Logically, the distribution of that secret is up to his personal discretion.

More to the point, he's presiding over the trial, and was forced to conclude that the defendants' right to know the charges against them overrode the necessity of keeping the secret...secret.

Presumably he is a paladin, but that wasn't an evil or even a chaotic act. It was exactly the correct thing to do.

garylian
2006-02-14, 12:44 PM
I agree that Belkar doesn't have a set plan for exactly how he is taking down Miko. He's making it up as he goes along.

What he does have is a end goal, however. He wants Miko to suffer, and nothing can make a paladin player suffer more than losing their paladinhood. Especially when they have roleplayed the paladin to the penultimate "stick in the mud" level that Miko has been portrayed as. It is the most crushing thing that could happen to Miko, thus, the thing that Belkar would enjoy the most.

In the end, I think the railroad will get Belkar. The GM has taken great liberties (as they often have to) to get the OotS to Azure City. The storyline seems to be evolving into one where they quest to do something about these gates that hold back the snarl. And, I am sure that Miko will be sent along with them to make sure they follow through with whatever quest they are given by Lord Shojo.

The growth potential for Miko's character is immense, especially if she is forced by her lord to work with the party, and Roy is given authority over her.

If that happens, Belkar will continue to *want* to kill her for XP, but he will only say it as a matter of form, much like he does with Elan.

Psiwave
2006-02-14, 01:14 PM
Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"
Miko could be a drunken care-bear with two levels in self humiliation and armed with only a cheese-grater of healing +3 and still kicked ass (esp off-screen) the DM (or narritive causality) knew that they must lose, so that was it for them. sad but true (and who can say we havn't all been there before).
my point is Miko and Belkar are probably evenly matched. and possably in love ::)
but then it is valentines day...

theKOT
2006-02-14, 01:23 PM
Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"
Miko could be a drunken care-bear with two levels in self humiliation and armed with only a cheese-grater of healing +3 and still kicked ass (esp off-screen) the DM (or narritive causality) knew that they must lose, so that was it for them. sad but true (and who can say we havn't all been there before).
my point is Miko and Belkar are probably evenly matched. and possably in love ::)
but then it is valentines day...
Have you seen the second fight's rundown? Even without windstriker, Miko is fearsome.... But disadvantaged right now. I really, really hope that there is no romance there. It burns us!


I agree that Belkar doesn't have a set plan for exactly how he is taking down Miko. He's making it up as he goes along.

What he does have is a end goal, however. He wants Miko to suffer, and nothing can make a paladin player suffer more than losing their paladinhood. Especially when they have roleplayed the paladin to the penultimate "stick in the mud" level that Miko has been portrayed as. It is the most crushing thing that could happen to Miko, thus, the thing that Belkar would enjoy the most.

In the end, I think the railroad will get Belkar. The GM has taken great liberties (as they often have to) to get the OotS to Azure City. The storyline seems to be evolving into one where they quest to do something about these gates that hold back the snarl. And, I am sure that Miko will be sent along with them to make sure they follow through with whatever quest they are given by Lord Shojo.

The growth potential for Miko's character is immense, especially if she is forced by her lord to work with the party, and Roy is given authority over her.

If that happens, Belkar will continue to *want* to kill her for XP, but he will only say it as a matter of form, much like he does with Elan.
Ok, First off, I love the Avatar. Secondly, yes, that would be a good storyline, and could be integrated with the "Miko must die" thread's theory. Also, it allows for some climax to the fight with no one being defeated/killed. I guess I just forgot about that, heh.

Melnor
2006-02-14, 01:31 PM
Haha, YES!
Everybody loves OoTS's resident bastard...the eighth dwarf Stabby!!! ;D

Alfryd
2006-02-14, 01:55 PM
Just one point to those who say that Miko must be a vastly superior combatant to the OOTS, remember Roy's comment "Damn railroad plot!"
Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.

theKOT
2006-02-14, 02:08 PM
Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.
As I've said before, I think that if Belkar was going to kill Miko, he would have done it in this strip. Miko may kill Belkar, but if so it would be in a way that would make her fall. I don't think either is going to happen, really.

Karellen
2006-02-14, 02:09 PM
Come now. Even with the errata on Rich's part during the second fight description, a few tweaks here and there (paricularly WRT Durkon) and some fudged rolls would keep the outcome at least plausible. She's not vastly superior in terms of raw stats, she's just magnificent. Now, something like this twinking is happening in Belkar's favour. Fair's fair.
I'm still slightly worried that, left to themselves, one or both could end up dead, but as things are turning out, all bets are off.

It's not so much that Miko was magnificent as the fact that OotS is a distinctly unoptimized party for their level whose ability to fight together, in that fight at least, was close to zero. Together with the way the DM apparently fudged throws (Miko pretty much always hits with every single attack while TWFing? Very likely) and reinterpreted some rules to her advantage, it was pretty easy for Miko to capitalize on their weaknesses and beat on them.

Arachnophile
2006-02-14, 02:12 PM
First off, Great comic!

Anyway... If Miko was knocked out would Belkar get experience for "defeating" her? If so and he knocked her out again would he get the experience again? I smell extra levels! ;D

Point of reference: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=124

Amalthea
2006-02-14, 02:12 PM
I'd just like to make a couple of notes:

1. I would require a fortitude save for the victim of a successful called shot to the head, with DC's to beat against being stunned or knocked completely unconscious. Blows to the head do this sort of damage, it is not unreasonable.

2. It IS unreasonable to expect someone recovering from being knocked unconscious to know how long they were out, or that they were out for more than the briefest period of time.
For Miko, working with what information about Belkar that she has, it is reasonable for her to believe herself to have only been momentarily stunned/unconscious, because she's still alive. Belkar hasn't given her the slightest bit of reason to believe he would be altrusistic if she was at his mercy, and her line of reasoning is that if she is still alive after being knocked out, then he must not have had the opportunity to finish her.

3. I can conclusively say that lead does not go "WANG" even if struck with with a variety of different metals. It's too dense, and makes a variety of dull sounding clicks. (I tested this, much to the amusement of a student, on one of the lead bricks here at work.) It cannot be Miko's head making the sound, because she is similarly dense.
However "WANG" is funnier, so I'm willing to allow for artistic liscense. ;D

theKOT
2006-02-14, 02:17 PM
3. I can conclusively say that lead does not go "WANG" even if struck with with a variety of different metals. It's too dense, and makes a variety of dull sounding clicks. (I tested this, much to the amusement of a student, on one of the lead bricks here at work.) It cannot be Miko's head making the sound, because she is similarly dense.
However "WANG" is funnier, so I'm willing to allow for artistic liscense. ;D
Even if it was somewhat thin? A brick certainly is thicker than a metal sheet...

To everybody out there saying, "Dude, don't worry about it, just sit back and enjoy the comic", debating trivialities is a big part of how I enjoy the comic

BlueWizard
2006-02-14, 02:28 PM
Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.
As to the lead sheet, anyone have stats for this weapon?
d6 + stun chance DC 14? Weighs 30 lbs.

I'm sure I'm late on this discussion...

the
Blue Wizard

Sylvius
2006-02-14, 02:31 PM
He thinks fighting and tormenting Miko is FUN. There's nothing in his behaviour that tells us he's not CE.

And anyway, he's CE. The Giant has said so on numerous occasions.

Am I the only person who actually reads the whole thread?

Amalthea
2006-02-14, 02:33 PM
Even if it was somewhat thin? A brick certainly is thicker than a metal sheet...
Yep. Lead has more of the consistency of stone than what we think of when we think of metal. There's no resonance to it at all, as opposed to say, a solid hunk of brass.

I am impressed that Belkar can carry a lead sheet though, our bricks are about 4"x3"x9" and they are HEAVY. I can carry two of them at once (one in each hand), but only with extreme caution, because you do NOT want to drop one of those.

Steward
2006-02-14, 02:35 PM
Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.
As to the lead sheet, anyone have stats for this weapon?
d6 + stun chance DC 14? Weighs 30 lbs.

I'm sure I'm late on this discussion...

the
Blue Wizard

The Giant already told us that he was Chaotic Evil. The only reason he didn't kill Miko now is because that would be boring.

Todd
2006-02-14, 02:42 PM
Back in 270 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=270) Miko tells Belkar that the temple is filled with clerics. What are the odds that at least one of them has Raise Dead or some such? Pretty good IMO.

Belkar will not get much out of killing her ... she would just come back madder than ever. However if he makes her fall ... well then that's something much worse.

Belkar is CE and his plan from the start has been to get Miko to fall. He may have an idea or two to that effect but mostly right now he is ad-libbing to make her mad for the setup.

I'm not a big fan of evil characters but Belkar is funny and Miko seems to be the "lawful stupid" stereotype that I detest in Paladins. I'm waiting with baited breath to see how this ends.

Frozen_Northman
2006-02-14, 02:56 PM
With various people wondering why an evil person wouldn't just slit Miko's throat, the following quote from Terry Pratchett's Men At Arms would seem to be in order:

"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm, they'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell you captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

Ignatius_the_Monk
2006-02-14, 02:59 PM
OK - part of me says "No Coup de Grace? BOOOOO!!!"

But then the other part of me says "Buwahahaha! Chaotic!"

Nuff said.

Coffee_Dragon
2006-02-14, 03:01 PM
I guess the pro-Miko league has to be happy that she's still with us at all. However, I'm waiting for the dedicated "OMG lvl 12 char beats lvl 16 char Rich is fudging!!!" thread. There always was one when Miko was the one coming out on top.

Having Miko as a semi-permanent addition to the party would be awesome, with plenty of spiteful repartee potential between her and Belkar. I remember when the possibility came up a while back, someone suggested a Geas be cast on Miko to make her get along better with the party. Makes sense, doesn't it - you're Good, you have a Good and an Evil character and need to have them working together... brainwash the Good one!

iltharanos
2006-02-14, 03:34 PM
All you did was show a bunch of cases where a paladin is most likely unable to take them back to trail.


No I didn't. I specifically posited the paladin being able to bring all the creatures back to trial.

Even if I had not, a paladin that just knocked a single ogre into unconsciousness should be more than able to bring that single ogre back to trial.


Theoretically, if he had an option to take the above to trial and imprisonment without risking himself or anyone else, then yes, he should have done that.

You mean the way Miko killed the bandit sorceress and her dad and didn't bring them back to trial?


The fact that it is nearly impossible to do that does make it legitimite to kill them.

I see, a paladin's priority is innocent life ... so long as it's convenient.


However, in this case, if Miko had Belkar unconcious, and in a castle full of guards, she doesn't have any problem doing that.

The only reason Miko would even spare the life of the evil Belkar is because she was specifically told by her Lord Shojo to bring them (the OotS) all back to be tried. She's not doing it out of any sort of paladin code or rulebook of behavior.



A paladin's priority is innocent life, then her life and then the criminal's life. She shouldn't go out of her way not to kill the criminal, but if she has a choise with little to no risk to herself than it would be non good to kill him.

You forgot something. A paladin's priority is to smite/smash/kill evil mercilessly and protect innocent life.

From the PH:

Alhandra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation ...

Again, given a choice any paladin would kill the evil before bringing it back to trial. Miko and Belkar are a special case, since Miko is following a direct command of her Lord Shojo. Otherwise Miko would just have killed Belkar at the earliest opportunity.

The way you describe paladins seems colored by reality, as in, that is how a paladin would operate in real life. This is a fantasy comic based on a fantasy game operating under fantasy rules. Paladins don't subdue evil creatures for trial, they kill them (Miko & Belkar being an exception).

WNxArrakis
2006-02-14, 03:36 PM
level 12s can easily beat level 16s - if they know what they're doing. For example, a ranged person behind a porous barrier can easily do it - its all in the int score.

Arrakis

Marller
2006-02-14, 03:41 PM
I guess the pro-Miko league has to be happy that she's still with us at all. However, I'm waiting for the dedicated "OMG lvl 12 char beats lvl 16 char Rich is fudging!!!" thread. There always was one when Miko was the one coming out on top.
I doubt it but you can always open one yourself ;)

Concerning lead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead), it's just too soft to be a good resonator. And it is poisonous anyway (hey, maybe that's where Belkar's low WIS is coming from). Iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron) or bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze) are better suited for that task.
Of course, the "lead" sheet could always only be coated with lead (very thinly or it would act as dampener).

humanpylon
2006-02-14, 03:45 PM
Maybe I came in late on this one, but...
I'm convinced Belkar is not evil. Though THE GIANT may never tell us... at most Belkar is Lawful Evil. CE or NE would've slain Miko while she sleeps.

the
Blue Wizard

Even disregarding what the Giant has said, Belkar himself said he's Chaotic http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230

Also for anyone who has said that Miko should lose Paladin status for using Detect Evil: A paladin loses status for committing an evil act. While using Detect Evil is possibly chaotic given the restraining order, I would argue it is not evil.

A Paladin must adhere to a lawful code but it does not say that a paladin will lose status for a single chaotic act.

I will say that Miko may need to visit a cleric for an atonement or something.

If it was my campaign I MIGHT give a penalty saying the chaotic act means the paladin gains no experience until atonement.

PhantomFox
2006-02-14, 04:04 PM
Belkar's got something planned. He's leading her on for a reason, otherwise he'd have escaped by now. I'm curious to see what he's up to...



What's another word for synonym?


Polyonym.

Starbuck_II
2006-02-14, 04:07 PM
Even disregarding what the Giant has said, Belkar himself said he's Chaotic http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230

Also for anyone who has said that Miko should lose Paladin status for using Detect Evil: A paladin loses status for committing an evil act. While using Detect Evil is possibly chaotic given the restraining order, I would argue it is not evil.

A Paladin must adhere to a lawful code but it does not say that a paladin will lose status for a single chaotic act.

I will say that Miko may need to visit a cleric for an atonement or something.

If it was my campaign I MIGHT give a penalty saying the chaotic act means the paladin gains no experience until atonement.

No, but a Paladin who lies breaks their oath. The Oath says you can't lie.



Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.

fwiffo
2006-02-14, 04:31 PM
You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

Denaes
2006-02-14, 04:35 PM
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.




1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.

What are you talking about? The Quote you provided very explicity states that a Paladin looses all of their class abilities if they ever perform an evil act. It says nothing about not following their Code of Conduct.

The text would say:


Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act or violates their Code of Conduct.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

The Code of Conduct is in place to help guide as a moral compass to prevent the Paladin from performing evil/chaotic acts by accident. Evil is pretty cut & dry, but you can slide out of Lawful fairly easily if you care more about people and justice... and being good. It's easy to slip into NG or CG and it often makes perfect sense.

Now obviously if you continiously break your Code of Conduct, you're commiting chaotic acts (doubily so because you're breaking your oath) and are not going to remain lawful and will loose your abilities. That doesn't mean that you have to stick to it 100% of the time.

I'm not sure why people try to hold Paladins up on some sort of Pedistal like they have such greater abilities than clerics or fighters or monks that it requires people to play in a straight jacket with one toe over the line and you loose your abilities.

There is a great deal of leeway and a GM call at some point if the player is leaning out of a Lawful alignment.

Swashbuckler
2006-02-14, 04:38 PM
You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

... totally agree. Who cares if Miko loses her paladin status? (oops, that's right ... silly Miko fans) We all have just today seen that Belkar pwned Miko - the only reason he didn't off her was that it wouldn't be any fun if she was helpless. He's got more honor than she ever will. :D

And as for those people still wonking about the "WANG!" sound ... have you ever been hit by a solid sheet of lead? No? Then how do you know what sound it would make? Who can say?

The Giant uses artistic and creative license so that we can enjoy his comic - leave it to some people to scrutinize it to death. ::)

Thank you, Rich, for the best darn comic out there. Keep 'em coming!

BurntOfferings
2006-02-14, 04:44 PM
You know, it's funny. Originally, it was Roy who wanted to wang Miko. But in the end, it was Belkar that wanged her, and wanged her good. Who woulda thunk it? :o

Amalthea
2006-02-14, 04:45 PM
1. Act with honor: she swore no healing from outside sources,. but broke honor by detecting evil.
2. She cheated therefore by detecting evil.../lying

Now, these are grevious charges. If she broke code: she stays LG, but loses powers. That is what it says.

Unless, she atones, but she would have to mean it.
This train of thought makes no sense. It's completely illogical, like the Abbut/Kosh exchange from the first season of B5: "A herring is just a herring, but a good cigar is a Cuban" "The the willow must scuttle carefully" "Does Saturn have rings?"
Gahh!

PhoeKun
2006-02-14, 05:07 PM
You guys are arguing over nothing. When Belkar wanged her on the head, she fell down, right? Well, at that point the discussion about whether Miko is going to be a fallen paladin or not became moot.

There's nothing better (or rarer) than a well made pun.

Bravo!

Starbuck_II
2006-02-14, 05:08 PM
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.


She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),


You know, it's funny. Originally, it was Roy who wanted to wang Miko. But in the end, it was Belkar that wanged her, and wanged her good. Who woulda thunk it?

Good one Simon.

theKOT
2006-02-14, 05:11 PM
She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

How do you know that the Cease & Desist has jurisdiction in the southern lands? Also, he was a fugitive who had murdered a guard and was on the run, that might have negated it.

Denaes
2006-02-14, 05:25 PM
She broke this code. The first sentence is unimportant about no evil. only the code itself is important because she broke it.

act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
Good one Simon.

And where does it say that breaking the Code of Conduct a single time causes a Paladin to loose their powers?

It says they must be LG to use their powers and it says that they loose their powers for an evil act. The text you quoted does not state that they loose their powers for a chaotic act or breaking their Code of Conduct.

Sylian
2006-02-14, 05:28 PM
When did Miko promise that she wouldn't detect evil?

kit
2006-02-14, 05:31 PM
But breaking the code does not cause a paladin to loose paladin status, only an evil act, or loosing LG alignment. Therefore, one evil (not neutral) action can cause her to fall, or a series of substantialy chaotic acts. Paladins are allowed a few chaotic and neutral acts here and there.

Marller
2006-02-14, 05:33 PM
... totally agree. Who cares if Miko loses her paladin status? (oops, that's right ... silly Miko fans) We all have just today seen that Belkar pwned Miko - the only reason he didn't off her was that it wouldn't be any fun if she was helpless. He's got more honor than she ever will:D
Strangely it were not the miko fans who started all those threads that Miko should fall, trip, turn undead (pun intended). So i'm not sure what you are complaining about. That people reply, maybe?



And as for those people still wonking about the "WANG!" sound ... have you ever been hit by a solid sheet of lead? No? Then how do you know what sound it would make? Who can say?
Lead is still used in our age, believe it or not. If you ever get your hands on a lead sheet, just drop it to a solid ground (concrete for example) and listen to the dull "thud". It doesn't transport sound very good.

evileeyore
2006-02-14, 05:42 PM
But breaking the code does not cause a paladin to loose paladin status, only an evil act, or loosing LG alignment. Therefore, one evil (not neutral) action can cause her to fall, or a series of substantialy chaotic acts. Paladins are allowed a few chaotic and neutral acts here and there.
Ahem.


SRD (D&D RUles)
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

For the last time. Violating the Code will cause a fal. However as I have underlined and italicized it must be a gross violation.

Ignoring one Cease and Desist order which hasn't even gone to trail is not, I repeat not, a gross violation.

Thank you, good night.

Sonofapreacherman
2006-02-14, 05:47 PM
Holy cazoodles. There's already 16 pages of replies for this strip? Okay, fair enough, OotS is popular, I get it. Still, I'm not going to read 16 pages of replies to see whether of not my comments are redundant. Instead, I will merely heap my comments into the "presumed" replies already made about the strip...

...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

Okay, now I'm done.

FreeloadingSausage
2006-02-14, 05:56 PM
You couldn't be more wrong. Alignment in D&D is and always has been about personal philosophy. The fact that most players have lost sight of this is the source of most misconceptions about alignment.

The only time actions come into play is when a particularly heavy-handed DM doesn't realize that people are not perfectly consistent in regards to alignment and decides that a perceived punishment is easier than attempting to understand.

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken here. I quote the book: (D&D PHB pg. 103)

"Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos."

You could possibly get away with this "My personal philosophy is what REALLY defines my alignment." thingie in a world without specific deities devoted to specific alignments. In the world of D&D, you have none of this wishy washy grey area stuff. You have a god of evil, slaughter, murder, pain, burning death and acid--and a god of good, mittens and kittens.

I also quote the book (D&D PHB pg. 103) as saying (for those of you "making Miko fall-ers out there"):

"Alignment is a tool for developing your characters identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of personality types...a good character can lose his temper, a neutral character can be inspired to perform a noble act, and so on."

Looking back, I realize I should not have said that alignment is based off of actions. I should have said that it is based MORE off of actions than personal philosophy.

A goodnatured cannibal would be evil because he (presumably) kills and eats people. Kobolds are usually lawful evil, not because they wake up in the morning and think "How can I make someone's life miserable today, while also maintaining the societal structure we, as a people group, adhere to?" The kobolds tend to be LE because they act in that way. If a kobold ACTS in a specifically different way, he is not evil.

Saying that a GM is heavy-handed if he relies on judging people's actions sounds to me like a guilty man trying to excuse his behavior by saying that the ends justify the means. If an absolutely devout man kills another man in cold blood because he believes that this act will somehow save that man (inquisitorial style) or even if he tortures that man to purify his soul or what not, that does not erase the fact that murder and torture are EVIL acts.

Miko might be trying to stop Belkar in a violent way, she may even relish the chase. She may even actually hate the little halfling, but that does not change the fact that she is committing a cosmically Lawful act by pursuing a criminal, and committing a cosmically Good act by trying to protect the populace of Azure City from a known murderer.

You can argue all you like, but the fact is, in a world of D&D, where alignments are spelled out, and Good and Evil are definitive ideals, there is little wiggle room for "personal philosophy."

The Giant pokes fun at this in comic #267 where the being of pure law and good makes his rant about ultimate justice. There are no questions as to intent on the part of the OotS, only there actions. Which is why Celia must defend them utilizing the fact that they kept an evil lich from using the gate.

If you want a game where personal philosophies rule alignment and not actions, then play another game where your BAMF vampire can murder and suck the blood of humans, but be truly good at heart or something. But a game based around the idea of killing monsters and taking their stuff--and where entire species of monsters are classified together by a single alignment--is hardly grounds for philosophical debate.

In the world of D&D if you spend your life saving peasants, and vaporizing gobbos, you'll go hang with Pelor when you die. If you kill peasants and help gobbos take over the world, you'll be toasting with a baatezu when you kick it. That's just how it works, regardless of whether those silly gobbos truly needed that land or whatnot.

unlit.candle
2006-02-14, 06:06 PM
Lets use the greatest fact of all: Who plays Paladins?
Nobody.

They lack any real power, need more feats to be any good for the most part. - Nobody seems to understand how the code works. For basic game concepts they are too hard and complicated.

They will never leave the D&D series, but we can do our best to forget them.

Go Belkar -

WeaponMasterLDO
2006-02-14, 06:41 PM
Great comic giant, it really shows Belkar's sensitive side.

humanpylon
2006-02-14, 06:44 PM
Question about good natured cannibals: If cannibalism is an accepted part of society, and a cannibal eats someone who has died from some non-evil means (war, falling out of a tree etc) is cannibalism still evil? After all, a guy's gotta eat!

jackal59
2006-02-14, 06:45 PM
Belkar is, in a description I once heard for Kevin Kline's character in "A Fish Called Wanda," an id with feet. Hairy feet in this case (though Kevin Kline's not that far off....)

humanpylon
2006-02-14, 06:49 PM
Belkar's got something planned. He's leading her on for a reason, otherwise he'd have escaped by now. I'm curious to see what he's up to...


Polyonym.

*tips hat to Phantom Fox* I didn't actually think someone would come up with an answer. Actually I didn't even know there was an answer, I was just being a cheeky smartass. Very nice!

Back to the comic, if I remember correctly a lead blocking sheet doesn't have to be very thick. Given that Belkar's sheet is probaby 2-3 feet tall, anyone happen to know how much it would weigh?

Fhaolan
2006-02-14, 06:54 PM
and a god of good, mittens and kittens.


Not that I want to get into the alignment discussion, but this bit had to be quoted. God of mittens. My player shall curse you for giving me ideas.

Dark_Stalion
2006-02-14, 07:03 PM
Holy cazoodles. There's already 16 pages of replies for this strip? Okay, fair enough, OotS is popular, I get it. Still, I'm not going to read 16 pages of replies to see whether of not my comments are redundant. Instead, I will merely heap my comments into the "presumed" replies already made about the strip...

...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

Okay, now I'm done.

Personally I read it as looking even when it said look, but that may be a result of me being dyslexic. It is a bit like where a sign says...

Don't cross the
the road! Deer!

Or something similar. A lot of people will not notice hte repetition as it is insignificant and the mind sort of eddits it out.

Sylvius
2006-02-14, 07:10 PM
Question about good natured cannibals: If cannibalism is an accepted part of society, and a cannibal eats someone who has died from some non-evil means (war, falling out of a tree etc) is cannibalism still evil? After all, a guy's gotta eat!

I would say no. In fact, I would argue that the cannibalism itself is never evil - it's the killing of the meal that matters.

This was the crux of my argument regarding Belkar's blood mural. Once the guy is dead, what more camage can you do to him? The same applies to cannibalism.

CatPeeler
2006-02-14, 07:25 PM
Forgive me if someone has already tossed this out there...but given that Belkar is deliberately provoking Miko as much as humanly (halflingly?) possible, I'm wondering whether his ultimate aim is to get her to lose her Paladin status. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he make some comment to the effect that association with him might do this? Obviously, he could have killed her quite easily....but he seems much more interested in having her fail than having her die...

Grey Watcher
2006-02-14, 07:29 PM
...specifically that OotS punch-lines would be a lot funnier if the characters used correct grammar!

"I'm looking forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Not...

"I'm look forward to cutting out your pancreas..."

Ah-hem. Thank you.

One word: tpyo!

Seriously, he probably did what I do all the time. He was simultaneously thinking of wording it "I look forward..." and "I'm looking forward..." and the result was a weird amalgam of the two. After all, the Giant doesn't have time to proofread because people are always screaming about how late it is....



Editorial P.S. By the way, saying "Oh man, it was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..." sounds less awkward than "Oh man, that was TOTALLY worth lugging that thing around..."

They sound the same to me. And besides, "that" is appropriate here, since he's referring to a specifing thing that just happened. Besides, the wording as is just feels more Belkar to me... :P Hooray, subjectivity!

Anyway, it's hardly the first typo that's appeared in the Comic, and, it will, I imagine mysteriously vanish at some point or other. Or, be completely forgotten about.

CatPeeler
2006-02-14, 07:29 PM
#206

"Plus, there's a good chance that if she associates with me, she'll lose all her Paladin powers...and that would be just too funny not to try."

Amalthea
2006-02-14, 07:54 PM
*tips hat to Phantom Fox* I didn't actually think someone would come up with an answer. Actually I didn't even know there was an answer, I was just being a cheeky smartass. Very nice!

Back to the comic, if I remember correctly a lead blocking sheet doesn't have to be very thick. Given that Belkar's sheet is probaby 2-3 feet tall, anyone happen to know how much it would weigh?


Lead has a density of 11.34 g/cm^3. Working with a sheet of lead that is 1 meter square and 1/2cm thick, you have 5,000 cm^3 of lead. That gives you 56,700 grams of lead. That's 56.7 kilograms or 124.74 pounds. I'm not certain that a 1/2 cm thick sheet of lead is thick enough to form an unflexible sheet, though. I would say it would need to be 1 cm thick, which would double the weight to 113.4 kilograms, or 249.48 pounds. Then again, it wouldn't need to be 1 meter square, it could be 1 meter by 1/2 meter, which would drop the weight back to 56.7 kilograms / 124.74 pounds.

Belkar has a size modifier to his carrying capacity of 3/4, so he would need a Strength of 14 to carry the lead sheet, period, and even then he'd be heavily burdened. With a Strength of 17, he'd only be carrying a medium burden.

Unless he somehow got it into his bag of holding, but given his comment, I doubt it.

[Edited for spelling]

PhoeKun
2006-02-14, 08:02 PM
Lead has a density of 11.34 g/cm^3. Working with a sheet of lead that is 1 meter square and 1/2cm thick, you have 5,000 cm^3 of lead. That gives you 56,700 grams of lead. That's 56.7 kilograms or 124.74 pounds. I'm not certain that a 1/2 cm thick sheet of lead is thick enough to form an unflexible sheet, though. I would say it would need to be 1 cm thick, which would double the weight to 113.4 kilograms, or 249.48 pounds. Then again, it wouldn't need to be 1 meter square, it could be 1 meter by 1/2 meter, which would drop the weight back to 56.7 kilograms / 124.74 pounds.

Belkar has a size modifier to his carrying capacity of 3/4, so he would need a Strength of 14 to carry the lead sheet, period, and even then he'd be heavily burdened. With a Strength of 17, he'd only be carrying a medium burden.

Unless he somehow got it into his bag of holding, but given his comment, I doubt it.

[Edited for spelling]

This is why its cool to have scientisits on message boards. I had honestly never really thought about just how heavy a sheet of lead like that would be. And given that a Greatsword sized for a Huge creature weighs a whopping 32 pounds... that sheet would hurt.

I feel it is safe to say that Miko's hit point total has no bearing on whether or not that big honking sheet of death... er... lead would knock her out. As such, all bets are off... again. Yay for uncertainty!

CatPeeler
2006-02-14, 08:04 PM
I'm not certain that a 1/2 cm thick sheet of lead is thick enough to form an unflexible sheet, though.

I've worked with lead sheet before. A sheet about a quarter-inch thick was slightly easier to bend than stiff leather.

FreeloadingSausage
2006-02-14, 08:17 PM
Not that I want to get into the alignment discussion, but this bit had to be quoted. God of mittens. My player shall curse you for giving me ideas.


Oh, I'm sorry, has no one ever introduced you to Roc-thaur, god of mittens and kittens? It's quite an amusing story invented by my friends and I.

Roc-thaur was the god who showed up late to the pantheon meeting when they handed out the portfolios. He's essentially a Half-Orcian god who was very interested in such divine portfolios as Slaughter, Murder, Death, Destruction and Murder (again). However, the god of deceit (Vechna?) gave him the wrong directions to the meeting so he arrived when the only remaining deific openings were in mittens and kittens. Essentially, he resides in the plane of said mittens and kittens--a giant ball of yarn filled with cat hair and other less pleasant things. He sits on a giant throne of living kittens and grants domain powers to his one cleric, a mid-level gnome with chronic depression, 8 slots of summon divine kittens, and thirteen ranks in Craft: Mittens.

(Roc-thaur has to heavily import from the plane of kitty litter, obviously)

Further information to adding Roc-Thaur to YOUR campaign:

His divine symbol is that of a man being split in two by a Great Axe which is Roc-thaur's favored weapon. His domain spells are as follows:

Lvl. 1: Summon Divine Kitten lvl. 1
Lvl. 2: Summon Divine Kitten lvl. 2
Lvl. 3: Summon Divine Kitten lvl. 3
Lvl. 4: Summon Divine Kitten lvl. 4

And so on.

His followers include his single gnome cleric, who is most often found surrounded (Rat King style) by kittens, which is unfortuante, because he is allergic to cats.

Needless to say, Roc-thaur's name gets left out of a lot of invitation lists for the gods' dance parties, and Erythnul, Vechna, and the other "cool" gods won't let him join their poker group.

iltharanos
2006-02-14, 08:21 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, has no one ever introduced you to Roc-thaur, god of mittens and kittens? It's quite an amusing story invented by my friends and I.

<snip>



LOL, that's hilarious.

Poor Roc-thaur. ;D

Denaes
2006-02-14, 08:44 PM
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.



Ahem.


For the last time. Violating the Code will cause a fal. However as I have underlined and italicized it must be a gross violation.

Ignoring one Cease and Desist order which hasn't even gone to trail is not, I repeat not, a gross violation.

Thank you, good night.


Well, I don't think it's so much the code itself as that breaking the code is itself a chaotic act and anything you're doing in breaking the code (lying, cheating, stealing, ignoring innocents you could help, etc) are all pretty chaotic actions.

So you could argue that when you hit the point where you hit "Gross Violation" of your Code of Conduct, you're not Lawful anymore as you're not sticking to your Code, you're dishonoring your vow to your diety (which is an issue I have with one single Code of Conduct covering so many dieties) and to perform Chaotic acts.

But a few minor transgressions spread out might be the start of a downhill slide, but wouldn't be enough to lose powers over.

rebellioussong
2006-02-14, 09:11 PM
Belkars alignment evilish-chaotic but mostly just adhd-chaotic

Amalthea
2006-02-14, 09:13 PM
I've worked with lead sheet before. A sheet about a quarter-inch thick was slightly easier to bend than stiff leather.
How stiff is stiff leather? Rawhide stiff? Leather armor stiff? Boot leather stiff?

I was basing my estimations of bendable thickness off of recollections of lead aprons used to protect the body from X-Rays and the 5cm thick lead bricks we have in the lab.

[Edit] And even if it is 1/2 cm thick and 1m x 1/2m in dimension, it's still 62.37 pounds of lead, which is nothing to sneeze at when it's hitting you in the head. (The lead bricks I was fussing with today are about 25 lbs. each, and 5cm x 10cm x 20cm.) Belkar would need a minimum Strength of 9 to carry the sheet, a Strength of 12 for it to be a medium load, and a Strength of 17 to carry it as a light load.

[Edit 2] My apologies for my inherent nerdiness. :o

nagora
2006-02-14, 09:35 PM
Perhaps the sheet is lead over something else. Something that might go "wang" and weigh less than solid lead.

I think we can deduce from this strip (and others) that Belkar is currently CN. He isn't evil, he's just amoral. He'll be good (but not very) if it serves him, and he'll be evil (but not very) if that serves him.

Jack the Ripper, Hitler, Condoleeza Rice, Stalin, the Moors Murderers. THESE are evil people. Someone who doesn't slay a helpless foe and who rides a dachshund just isn't.

If he had been evil there is any number of times he could have literally cut and run, but I doubt that any of the OotS would expect him to desert them in difficult times.

Even good people can really dislike each other. Lawful and Chaotic can certainly hate each other without either being evil.

And: "I'm the 8th dwarf, Stabby" was a great line.