How to make Party A vs Party B a challenging fight with PCs supporting either party?

[heavyfuel]

Maybe the title is a bit confusing. Here's the situation:

Party A wants to kill Party B an vice-versa. However, the PCs will have the opportunity to help either (or no) party. Obviously, the Party being helped by the PCs will win without breaking much of a sweat. They will have massive action economy advantage on top of being helped by high level characters.

My issue is that I don't want the fight to be super easy either way.

I want whichever party the PCs decided not to help to still pose at least a small threat so that the combat is exciting and not a 2-hour snoozefest of killing nearly helpless characters.

Is there any way to actually do this?

[Telonius]

Yojimbo. This is not a combat challenge, it's a social challenge. Play both sides against each other, come out on top. Best way to do that is to make sure that both sides have something the PCs want, and won't be able to give it to them if they're dead.

[rrwoods]

The "easy" "answer" is to have a set of things you're willing to do to lift up whichever side the PCs don't help (or help less, or whatever). You don't actually apply any of these things until you're about to start the fight, in order to make sure the fight is as even as you'd like it to be.

"Easy" is in quotes because you do need to figure out a range of things ahead of time, and it could be any number of things of varying levels of difficulty: adding class levels, buffing equipment, changing ability scores ...

"Answer" is in quotes because it (sort of) makes the players choices matter a lot less in terms of outcome. However I'd not worry too much about this -- the *real* result of the players' choice is the effect on the rest of the campaign, not the effect on this encounter in particular.

[Seto]

One easy solution would be to have a fourth party (one or two powerful creatures) who will help whichever party the PCs DON'T help, to even the odds. Let's suppose Party A is Evil and Party B is Good, and the PCs have the choice of helping either. Look up powerful outsiders. If the PCs join party B, a couple of Devils show up: party A is calling in a debt. If the PCs join party A, party B's Celestial friends show up to the rescue.
Alternatively, think up a similar "ace up the sleeve" (a one-use item, spell, ability etc.) and give it to whatever party the PCs don't help.

Another solution lies in the tactics used. If the PCs join party A, then party A's victory makes little doubt - but party B is still dangerous if they choose to, say, focus fire or generally fight more competently.

[heavyfuel]

Yojimbo. This is not a combat challenge, it's a social challenge. Play both sides against each other, come out on top. Best way to do that is to make sure that both sides have something the PCs want, and won't be able to give it to them if they're dead.

Yojimbo? :smallconfused:

At any rate... There will definitely be a social aspect to this, but since peace isn't an option between these two groups, a combat to end it is practically inevitable (who knows, maybe one of the PCs will come up with a peaceful solution, but I doubt it)


The "easy" "answer" is to have a set of things you're willing to do to lift up whichever side the PCs don't help (or help less, or whatever). You don't actually apply any of these things until you're about to start the fight, in order to make sure the fight is as even as you'd like it to be.

"Easy" is in quotes because you do need to figure out a range of things ahead of time, and it could be any number of things of varying levels of difficulty: adding class levels, buffing equipment, changing ability scores ...

"Answer" is in quotes because it (sort of) makes the players choices matter a lot less in terms of outcome. However I'd not worry too much about this -- the *real* result of the players' choice is the effect on the rest of the campaign, not the effect on this encounter in particular.

Well, the NPCs have aleady been created with all of their class levels and whatnot. I don't like the idea of suddenly buffing one team so that the fight is now challenging


One easy solution would be to have a fourth party (one or two powerful creatures) who will help whichever party the PCs DON'T help, to even the odds. Let's suppose Party A is Evil and Party B is Good, and the PCs have the choice of helping either. Look up powerful outsiders. If the PCs join party B, a couple of Devils show up: party A is calling in a debt. If the PCs join party A, party B's Celestial friends show up to the rescue.
Alternatively, think up a similar "ace up the sleeve" (a one-use item, spell, ability etc.) and give it to whatever party the PCs don't help.

Another solution lies in the tactics used. If the PCs join party A, then party A's victory makes little doubt - but party B is still dangerous if they choose to, say, focus fire or generally fight more competently.

That could work. I might need to come up with something they can use in a desperate situation.

[Telonius]

Yojimbo? :smallconfused:

Classic Kurosawa movie; remade for American audiences as the (also-classic) spaghetti Western, A Fistful of Dollars. There was a similar situation there; guy walks into a situation where two houses were warring against each other, and manages to play them against each other, destroying (and making a hefty profit) from them both.

[Bucky]

If both other parties are larger or higher level than the PCs, A straight fight of PCs+A vs B would be tilted in favor of PCs+A but not overwhelmingly so. Even if the other parties are on equal footing with the PCs, the PCs must still rely on help from their allies and the overall difficulty would not be much different from a typical encounter, which is PCs vs fewer or weaker NPCs.


Another consideration, this fight would be far slower to run than a typical encounter, because the GM must make a lot of NPC-on-NPC dice rolls. You may wish to pre-roll and pre-script the opening of the encounter, only throwing away your prepared rolls when the party intervenes.

[Quertus]

Classic Kurosawa movie; remade for American audiences as the (also-classic) spaghetti Western, A Fistful of Dollars. There was a similar situation there; guy walks into a situation where two houses were warring against each other, and manages to play them against each other, destroying (and making a hefty profit) from them both.


If both other parties are larger or higher level than the PCs, A straight fight of PCs+A vs B would be tilted in favor of PCs+A but not overwhelmingly so. Even if the other parties are on equal footing with the PCs, the PCs must still rely on help from their allies and the overall difficulty would not be much different from a typical encounter, which is PCs vs fewer or weaker NPCs.


Another consideration, this fight would be far slower to run than a typical encounter, because the GM must make a lot of NPC-on-NPC dice rolls. You may wish to pre-roll and pre-script the opening of the encounter, only throwing away your prepared rolls when the party intervenes.

The preceding 2 prayers said pretty much exactly what I wanted to say: the optimal move may well be for the PCs to loot the bodies of *both* sides, and the levels and numbers of NPCs can certainly make the fight still *very* tense. So, number & level of PCs and both sides?

Only thing I have to add is, RP the foes. If the PCs side with the other side, what's their plan to not just die? Retreat to a defensible position? Hire Mercs? Use that forbidden ritual / artifact? Kidnap someone's loved one to make them sit out / fight poorly? Give the players agency where their choice matters, but don't treat the NPCs like suicidal idiots (unless they are).

[Morty_Jhones]

This sort of encounter is not easy but it is intresting.

my serjestion would be to make both groups slightly more pwerfull than the party (say +2 levels) and set the stiuation so that both groups have defencable hideouts..
Without the parties help theres no way eather group could stage a raid, but with help and proper planing a raid is now looking plausable.

lets not forget these ganges would whant to leave sombody to guard there bace and loot for just in case.

Personaly I would not have eather group be willing to fight to the death, there might be hot heads or beserkers but if the worst happens and they get wiped out then who would res them?
depending on who the party decides to get involved with this should have magor consequences carrying on though te campain.. if they help eather side drive off the other then ther e will now be a group of powefull indevidulaes with a solid grevance against the party. and senanigans beckon.

[Togo]

Give each side either unusually high numbers of hit points, or mooks to act as speed bumps. If mooks, always have the side the player is helping act to take out a mook each round with massive overkill, leaving the players to take out the boss guy.