Is insulting the living a sign of resentment, or just flavor in a Fantasy story?

[Ionathus]

A trend I've noticed in the comic is that many sentient undead (Xykon, HPoH, The Exarch) seem to default to insulting other (living) characters' biological existence.

This is especially true when they're REALLY mad:

"I'm snuffing you sickening pouches of warm goo right now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)."
"You pulsing little toad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1174.html)."
(mild SoD Spoilers) "I should pop your sickeningly warm head right off your disgusting fluid-filled sack of organs."


In each case, the undead character was at a particularly low moment -- they'd just lost something incredibly valuable to them. It makes sense that they'd be at their meanest, and they'd want to hurt whoever they're talking to the most. And the most horrible insults they can conjure are about how terrible it is to be alive. That disdain and repulsion almost feels excessive to me: it makes me wonder if this is a sign of some deep resentment or envy. Maybe some sentient undead all secretly long for life again, or at least envy the living for their biological functions.

Or -- more likely -- it's just a fun, cool insult that normal alive humans never get to use on each other in the real world, so it's fun to include in a fantasy setting.

Happy to hear others' thoughts.

[Alchemist_Fire]

Hello,

It certainly is possible that undead characters feel resentment about their state. Xykon can no longer taste coffee. HPoH was so susceptible to seductive viviocentrism that his psyche temporarily converted into Durkon. There are many hedonistic pleasures that would be denied to an undead creature, and also undeath has certain limitations.

Every undead villain would seize an opportunity to demonstrate their embrace of undeath, horrifying and demoralizing their living foes. How much is hatred and how much is regret and projection? Only the Giant knows...

[apocryphaGnosis]

It is somewhat important that all of the example of sentient undead are evil (Due to the horrific anti-undead bigotry inherent in high fantasy settings) and so they are probably more prone to insulting a creature on the basis of their biological status.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of an instance of Malack displaying this attitude, so its probably not inherent to being undead.

[Emanick]

It is somewhat important that all of the example of sentient undead are evil (Due to the horrific anti-undead bigotry inherent in high fantasy settings) and so they are probably more prone to insulting a creature on the basis of their biological status.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of an instance of Malack displaying this attitude, so its probably not inherent to being undead.

Malack was also a fairly polite guy. It wasn't his style to make broad, sweeping insults about whole categories of beings. I'm not sure that it was a coincidence that he spoke softly and carried a big stick.

I'm not sure whether all undead beings envy the living. Xykon certainly does, at least to some extent, but Greg strikes me as someone who has absolutely no desire to be alive in the conventional sense. I find it easy to believe that most undead are genuinely disgusted by bodily fluids and the like, which, to be fair, are kind of gross. In some sentient undead, this disgust may mingle with resentment and envy; in others, it may not. I can understand a mentality that prizes being kept "alive" by elegant magic rather than a complex system of squishy flesh and bodily fluids.

[Metastachydium]

Malack was also a fairly polite guy. It wasn't his style to make broad, sweeping insults about whole categories of beings. I'm not sure that it was a coincidence that he spoke softly and carried a big stick.

I'm not sure whether all undead beings envy the living. Xykon certainly does, at least to some extent,

I'm not quite as sure about that as you are. X. enjoys being a lich tremendously, and loves the effective immortality that comes with it.


but Greg strikes me as someone who has absolutely no desire to be alive in the conventional sense. I find it easy to believe that most undead are genuinely disgusted by bodily fluids and the like, which, to be fair, are kind of gross. (…) I can understand a mentality that prizes being kept "alive" by elegant magic rather than a complex system of squishy flesh and bodily fluids.

That's quite officially the case with Greg. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)

[WanderingMist]

A trend I've noticed in the comic is that many sentient undead (Xykon, HPoH, The Exarch) seem to default to insulting other (living) characters' biological existence.

This is especially true when they're REALLY mad:

"I'm snuffing you sickening pouches of warm goo right now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)."
"You pulsing little toad (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1174.html)."
(mild SoD Spoilers) "I should pop your sickeningly warm head right off your disgusting fluid-filled sack of organs."


In each case, the undead character was at a particularly low moment -- they'd just lost something incredibly valuable to them. It makes sense that they'd be at their meanest, and they'd want to hurt whoever they're talking to the most. And the most horrible insults they can conjure are about how terrible it is to be alive. That disdain and repulsion almost feels excessive to me: it makes me wonder if this is a sign of some deep resentment or envy. Maybe some sentient undead all secretly long for life again, or at least envy the living for their biological functions.

Or -- more likely -- it's just a fun, cool insult that normal alive humans never get to use on each other in the real world, so it's fun to include in a fantasy setting.

Happy to hear others' thoughts.

Aren't most undead non-sapient tools that only exist to serve who created them? Vampires and liches aside, most of them aren't actually anything more than magical energy animating a corpse or skeleton.

[Metastachydium]

Aren't most undead non-sapient tools that only exist to serve who created them?

Some would say all of them are. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)

[Jason]

It might be significant that the undead insulting the living are generally newly-created undead. Malack had hundreds of years to mellow and accept his "condition" by the time we meet him. Or it might just be Malack's own character to be polite.

[ti'esar]

I'm not quite as sure about that as you are. X. enjoys being a lich tremendously, and loves the effective immortality that comes with it.

The scene where he loses it in SoD actually directly relates to that, because it's the first time he actually does experience a meaningful loss as a result of having become undead. That one does seem like a very deliberate "Xykon hates the living for being alive, out of envy" moment.

[Cicciograna]

I think it's the almost universal tendency of bad people to insult and despise something they perceive as "different" from them. This risks to become political, so I will stop here, noting that the most important point of difference between the living and the unliving is, by definition, life.

It is also to be noted that [SoD spoilers]...

during his fight against Dorukan, Xykon directed his (somewhat indirect) insult not to his opponent being alive, but rather being a bookworm:



...this magic is [...] not cribbed off of "Magic for Dummies..."


This tells us that in that specific fight, the "different" from Xykon was not Dorukan being alive, but Dorukan being a Wizard, hence the targeting of that characteristic in Xykon's insults.

[Dr.Zero]

Surealy there must be something happening during the process, which modifies as undeads perceive life and living creature.
Let's not forget that X, even if he was (ok, I'm going to spoiler it, even if it is a very tiny detail)
impotent because of old age, was still clearly in admiration and attracted by the beauty of the demon barmaid but when Tsukiko proposes to him, he states that he is not one of those disgusting biophiliacs showing that any interest has gone and he is even slightly disgusted (more or less humorously) by the idea.

So my guess is that the negative energy changes them somehow.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think it's the almost universal tendency of bad people to insult and despise something they perceive as "different" from them. This risks to become political, so I will stop here, noting that the most important point of difference between the living and the unliving is, by definition, life.

It is also to be noted that [SoD spoilers]...

during his fight against Dorukan, Xykon directed his (somewhat indirect) insult not to his opponent being alive, but rather being a bookworm:



This tells us that in that specific fight, the "different" from Xykon was not Dorukan being alive, but Dorukan being a Wizard, hence the targeting of that characteristic in Xykon's insults.


I think that's just human nature. Just look at kids in school, they'll pick on each other over absolutely anything. What determines the pecking order is not the physical differences between the kids, but how the initiators (bullies) take initiative and how their targets (victims) react. Often, out of any intelligent ideas, the initiators will peck over trivial or non-factual traits, which will then tend to only be repeated and become "a thing" if the target is visibly bothered by the remarks. This doesn't just limit itself to the context of an ill-intended person versus an undeserving victim. When angered, it's quite normal to mentally caricaturize an adversary, by emphasizing visible, if otherwise meaningless, traits. Slurs will often spring to mind, even if one is not otherwise inclined to use them or think that way in general. For an undead, the most blatant difference between themselves and their living opponents is, well, precisely that: life.

[Cicciograna]

I think that's just human nature. Just look at kids in school, they'll pick on each other over absolutely anything. What determines the pecking order is not the physical differences between the kids, but how the initiators (bullies) take initiative and how their targets (victims) react. Often, out of any intelligent ideas, the initiators will peck over trivial or non-factual traits, which will then tend to only be repeated and become "a thing" if the target is visibly bothered by the remarks. This doesn't just limit itself to the context of an ill-intended person versus an undeserving victim. When angered, it's quite normal to mentally caricaturize an adversary, by emphasizing visible, if otherwise meaningless, traits. Slurs will often spring to mind, even if one is not otherwise inclined to use them or think that way in general. For an undead, the most blatant difference between themselves and their living opponents is, well, precisely that: life.
Yeah, I have to be honest, I didn't want to write that it was "human nature" because in me there's still the hope that we can be a shred more decent that this, but yeah, you are totally right.

[Precure]

It's eerily similar to how non-mammalians in this comic always insults mammalians.

[Malloon]

It's eerily similar to how non-mammalians in this comic always insults mammalians.

To be fair, have you met any living mammalians? I honestly don't know how they can stand to be around themselves, with their hairy, leaky skins and warm insides. Do you know how many germs those things help cultivate? Yech!

[Ploppy]

My guess is that undead have an instinctual revulsion to the positive energy in living things, given that uncommanded non-intelligent undead don't do anything at all except attack living things that get near them. Sapient undead would logically have the same revulsion but could choose not to act on it. Of course vampires and ghouls rely on consuming living things so they might not have that same disgust reflex.

[Metastachydium]

To be fair, have you met any living mammalians? I honestly don't know how they can stand to be around themselves, with their hairy, leaky skins and warm insides. Do you know how many germs those things help cultivate? Yech!

So true, so true!

[Ionathus]

To be fair, have you met any living mammalians? I honestly don't know how they can stand to be around themselves, with their hairy, leaky skins and warm insides. Do you know how many germs those things help cultivate? Yech!

"HOW ARE YOU? IS YOUR SKIN NICE AND FLEXIBLE? INSIDES FULL OF FLUIDS?" (http://www.scpwiki.com/scp-1171)

[Murk]

I also want to add that most insults in real life are related to insulting "living".
By far most insults and swear words have to do with biological functions: diseases and handicaps, sex and sexual body parts, digestive products, etc.

Bodies are just gross, and if you're looking for an easy insult focusing on the grossness is convenient.

[King of Nowhere]

on the other hand, undeath also has several benefits. I would assume that people who seek it intentionally would feel that an undead body is superior to a living one. call them unliving suprematists, maybe

[Morty]

I think it boils down to the notion that people being insulted over traits that we don't even think about (having hair, having warm blood, etc.) is funny.

[Precure]

I think it boils down to the notion that people being insulted over traits that we don't even think about (having hair, having warm blood, etc.) is funny.

It's like a reverse-racism, racism directed against all "normal" humans.

[Riftwolf]

It kind of reminds me of one of the robots in a Star Wars game (Kotor maybe?) who kept calling you meatbag and couldn't understand how you could sleep with all that blood sloshing round.
It could also be undeath is an inherent wrongness to the natural world, and vice versa.

[Darth Paul]

It kind of reminds me of one of the robots in a Star Wars game (Kotor maybe?) who kept calling you meatbag and couldn't understand how you could sleep with all that blood sloshing round.


Good old HK-47 :smallcool:. He was just the best.

From the little I recall (not digging SoD out right now), Xykon, in death, was not so much different from Xykon in life. He was an arrogant, self-centered jerk then, and he is now. He insulted the other contenders for the spot of chief minion to the Dark Lord, he insulted the lizard men, he insulted Redcloak and Right-Eye when they met. It seems to me that un-dying only meant that he could pick on one more thing about his antagonists.

Whereas Malack (rather, his host, considering we're talking about a vampire spirit that possessed the original shaman Malack) may have been a fairly decent fellow before being turned. That, or, as suggested, he's mellowed out a lot over the centuries.

[Metastachydium]

Whereas Malack (rather, his host, considering we're talking about a vampire spirit that possessed the original shaman Malack)

How do we know the host's name was also Malack?


may have been a fairly decent fellow before being turned.

Why would that matter?

[Ionathus]

Good old HK-47 :smallcool:. He was just the best.

From the little I recall (not digging SoD out right now), Xykon, in death, was not so much different from Xykon in life. He was an arrogant, self-centered jerk then, and he is now. He insulted the other contenders for the spot of chief minion to the Dark Lord, he insulted the lizard men, he insulted Redcloak and Right-Eye when they met. It seems to me that un-dying only meant that he could pick on one more thing about his antagonists.

Whereas Malack (rather, his host, considering we're talking about a vampire spirit that possessed the original shaman Malack) may have been a fairly decent fellow before being turned. That, or, as suggested, he's mellowed out a lot over the centuries.

In my memory of SoD, I think they mentioned that once he became undead, killing things seemed to be the only thing that he enjoyed anymore. Since, y'know, coffee was off the menu...I'm still surprised that scene hit me as hard as it did!

I wonder if Malack's attitude is more about his worship of Nergal, and reverence for death. In contrast to Hel, Nergal's attitude seems to be that Death is something to be upheld, maintained, and fulfilled as part of the natural cosmological order. Whereas Hel seems to treat death like a tool, or a means to an end. She doesn't seem to care about her "duties", and is focused on personal power more than anything else.

As a result, I can see Malack treating mortals more normally, since they're part of the natural cycle of life and death. Tarquin even mentions that Malack once told him Nergal frowns upon raising undead (the mummies), which is an interesting statement coming from a vampire!

[Metastachydium]

I wonder if Malack's attitude is more about his worship of Nergal, and reverence for death. In contrast to Hel, Nergal's attitude seems to be that Death is something to be upheld, maintained, and fulfilled as part of the natural cosmological order.

That may or may not be the case. We know precious little about Nergal's attitude for certain.

Whereas Hel seems to treat death like a tool, or a means to an end. She doesn't seem to care about her "duties", and is focused on personal power more than anything else.

But personal power for a Stickverse divinity ultimately comes from the living, doesn't it? It's based on belief, worship (and while she can get that from her undead minions, those undead minions need the living to prey on them and to reproduce), dedication and souls (which she cannot get from the undead).


As a result, I can see Malack treating mortals more normally, since they're part of the natural cycle of life and death. Tarquin even mentions that Malack once told him Nergal frowns upon raising undead (the mummies), which is an interesting statement coming from a vampire!

Technically, T. never says Nergal frowns upon that. He says Malack is usually against „[that] sort of thing” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html) (and it is never clarified what he actually means by this; Malack could simply object to fellow undead being used as cannon fodder).

[Darth Paul]

How do we know the host's name was also Malack?

He had a different name 200 years ago, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) but for convenience's sake I called him "the original Malack" rather than "the barbarian shaman who became Malack".


Why would that matter?

If a vampire spirit is made of the host's thoughts on his worst day, then from what we see of Malack, the shaman may have been a fairly decent type of person. Meaning the vampire spirit didn't have that many dark thoughts to work with. Not saying Malack isn't evil, but he is a polite evil. Of course, that may, again, be behavior picked up over 200 years of learning that going around ripping throats out can be counterproductive unless you do it in secret.

[Metastachydium]

He had a different name 200 years ago, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) but for convenience's sake I called him "the original Malack" rather than "the barbarian shaman who became Malack".

If a vampire spirit is made of the host's thoughts on his worst day, then from what we see of Malack, the shaman may have been a fairly decent type of person. Meaning the vampire spirit didn't have that many dark thoughts to work with. Not saying Malack isn't evil, but he is a polite evil. Of course, that may, again, be behavior picked up over 200 years of learning that going around ripping throats out can be counterproductive unless you do it in secret.

Fair enough.

[ijuinkun]

Malack was also a fairly polite guy. It wasn't his style to make broad, sweeping insults about whole categories of beings. I'm not sure that it was a coincidence that he spoke softly and carried a big stick.

I'm not sure whether all undead beings envy the living. Xykon certainly does, at least to some extent, but Greg strikes me as someone who has absolutely no desire to be alive in the conventional sense. I find it easy to believe that most undead are genuinely disgusted by bodily fluids and the like, which, to be fair, are kind of gross. In some sentient undead, this disgust may mingle with resentment and envy; in others, it may not. I can understand a mentality that prizes being kept "alive" by elegant magic rather than a complex system of squishy flesh and bodily fluids.

Greg's attitude is likely common among those undead who are "detached" from their body's previous alive state--e.g. vampires experience their host's memories vicariously rather than feeling them as their own. To them, being undead is their "natural" state.

On the flip side, undead such as Xykon, who have a continuity of identity between being alive and being undead (Xykon considers his former fleshy self and his current bony self to be the same person), would not think of being living flesh as something alien, but might see it as a weakness that has been cast aside (the phrase "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" comes to mind).

[danielxcutter]

I would hazard to guess that the “darkest thoughts” that OG-“Malack” did have likely had something to do with family. He mentioned having seven brothers “in that dim other life so long past.” Maybe he felt unloved.

[Ionathus]

I would hazard to guess that the “darkest thoughts” that OG-“Malack” did have likely had something to do with family. He mentioned having seven brothers “in that dim other life so long past.” Maybe he felt unloved.

I never felt like him calling his past life "dim" was a negative -- more so that he was just apathetic about it now. "Dim" as an adjective suggests it was uninteresting or uneventful. If it was a bad experience, I'd have expected something like "dark" or "terrible".

[Metastachydium]

I never felt like him calling his past life "dim" was a negative -- more so that he was just apathetic about it now. "Dim" as an adjective suggests it was uninteresting or uneventful. If it was a bad experience, I'd have expected something like "dark" or "terrible".

Or maybe he only has (or, rather, had) vague memories of that past life.