Simple gestalt solution

[lylsyly]

So for our next game it's going to be gestalt.

Current decisions are: Cleric//Wizard, Barb/Champion of Gynn$%#$//Duskblade, Rogue//Beguiler, Wiz/Sorc/Utlimate Magus//Mystic Ranger. and me: I'm already pretty decided on Dragonfire adept//???. Really don't wan't to PRC unless necessary. Given the already decided progressions what would go well with DFA without getting anymore MAD than necessary??

All 1st party, no dragmag. And I really want to avoid PRCs. We are mid op at best. I will be going Dragonborn with the flight aspect from the start. Really just looking for a 1-20 class that synergizes well with DFA and can make me a great support character. Bard is kinda obvious but been there done that ;-)

[JNAProductions]

Warlock is good.

Monk gives you a great chassis and a bunch of nice ancillary abilities.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a savage progression on the other side, preferably something with really high Con and Cha scores?

[Silly Name]

Well, the question is, what do you want to do? DFA has a nice base package, so as long as you stay Charisma focused a lot of things fit.

Monk has cool rider abilities, but it's basically the poster child for MAD and Charisma happens to be the one stat it doesn't really interact with. Rogue nets you sneak attack, more skills, slightly higher BaB, and a cool range of class abilities (with lots of ACFs, too) that don't interfere with anything the DFA does. Same goes for Scout.

Barbarian may have been another cool option, but I'm pretty sure Rage stops you from using Invocations, which sucks.

[lylsyly]

I have never played a Warlock! I am set on dragonborn with the wings aspect for flight at a reasonable level. By raw entangling exhalation is not a meta breath feat which is all I would care about for a DFA. More Invocations would be VERY good. I suppose I would go for eldritch blast maximization instead of a Glaivelock since I am basically a ranged character anyhoo?

[lylsyly]

How about a savage progression on the other side, preferably something with really high Con and Cha scores?

Savage progressions I will have to look at, Maybe Ghaele with it's cleric casting.


Well, the question is, what do you want to do? DFA has a nice base package, so as long as you stay Charisma focused a lot of things fit.

Monk has cool rider abilities, but it's basically the poster child for MAD and Charisma happens to be the one stat it doesn't really interact with. Rogue nets you sneak attack, more skills, slightly higher BaB, and a cool range of class abilities (with lots of ACFs, too) that don't interfere with anything the DFA does. Same goes for Scout.

Barbarian may have been another cool option, but I'm pretty sure Rage stops you from using Invocations, which sucks.

I am of the monk sucks school. rogue? meh, my breath weapon doesn't need bab. skills yes but I have invocations for that. DFA already needs con and cha for invocations and breath weapon and the cha works for the warlocks invocations as well. Since the DFA only really needs one feat to be effective I can spend the rest on eldritch blast or other things.

Just got done reading up on warlock and ghaele. both have interesting possibilities. Since I am playing my usual support character role I think I am going with Ghaele with it's cleric casting ABS boosts and SLAs. Thanks for the suggestions!!

[SangoProduction]

May be slightly cheating by suggesting Dragon Compendium's (Not Dragon Mag's) Dvati, to get double the breaths.
As for your second part of the gestalt, warlock fits in neatly, and you can get both a breath and invoke down at the same time with a dvati. And I think they are both charisma based classes.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum always works well in gestalt, especially past level 8 since extra standard actions are amazing.

However, specifically for Dragonfire Adept, I would suggest a gestalt with Sorcerer. Between spells that improve your breath weapon as a swift action (Stunning Breath/Dispelling Breath/Blinding Breath), powerful Dragon-themed spells (Wings of Cover, Draconic Polymorph), and a ton of flexible utility you can pick up as a tier 2 caster, you end up being a force to be reckoned with!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Sorcerer is going to be the way to go on this. Between the spells that add powerful carrier effects to your breath weapon (Reflex save or permanently blinded?!), spells that benefit from being Dragonblooded (mostly in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic), and strong support spells in general, you'll probably do better with this than anything else. You're also in a party of seriously powerful characters, if DFA is the strongest thing you've got you could end up feeling like a sidekick.

With gestalt characters in general, you want an active class and a passive class. Passive classes include Binder, Incarnate, Factotum, Rogue, etc. Anything that gives you benefits without spending actions. Active classes would be your DFA, or Warlock, or most spellcasting classes. Warlock is more of an active class than DFA and would end up dominating your actions in combat. If using Warlock on a gestalt character you generally want to go Warlock 20// Something 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Something 5. This is because everything you gain from Enlightened Spirit stacks with your Warlock features when gained at the same level. ES automatically gives you wings, so that would make your primary racial trait redundant. Going Warlock without ES just makes you a weaker Warlock, it won't really add any synergy to your build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

With gestalt characters in general, you want an active class and a passive class. Passive classes include Binder, Incarnate, Factotum, Rogue, etc. Anything that gives you benefits without spending actions. Active classes would be your DFA, or Warlock, or most spellcasting classes. Warlock is more of an active class than DFA and would end up dominating your actions in combat. If using Warlock on a gestalt character you generally want to go Warlock 20// Something 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Something 5. This is because everything you gain from Enlightened Spirit stacks with your Warlock features when gained at the same level. ES automatically gives you wings, so that would make your primary racial trait redundant. Going Warlock without ES just makes you a weaker Warlock, it won't really add any synergy to your build.Psionics is a major exception to the active/passive class paradigm. Psionics is extremely active all the way around, but it also sits at the pinnacle of action economy abuse with a small amount of effort put into it. So feel free to pair psion with an active class like DFA. Just pay attention to psionic action economy boosters.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Warlock could well end up competing with DFA for your actions rather than enhancing it. But all those extra invocations are certainly juicy...

Dragon Shaman is certainly on theme, is Con focused (and d10HD so lots of HP), gives you quite a few lovely passive AOE party buffs (though you can only have 1 active at once for a while), and gives you a second breath weapon that unambiguously qualifies you for metabreath feats (and you can load all of them up onto it for a devastating opener before switching to your DFA breath weapon for the rest of the encounter, sidestepping the cooldown problem).

Totemist or Incarnate could also be very interesting. You can choose your soulmelds to complement your chosen invocations or fill in the gaps (and switch them as appropriate from day to day), and being Dragonborn gives you access to the lovely dragonblood soulmelds. There are even a few Totemist soulmelds that could give you additional breath weapons.

[Rebel7284]

Also, to expand on my Sorcerer suggestion, see if your DM lets you use Stalwart Sorcerer in Complete Mage, pg. 36. It increases your hit points by 2/sorcerer level. Effectively, this means that in addition to picking up spellcasting, you also end up with D12 HD. Sure you know one less spell, but that seems worth it in this case.

[lylsyly]

However, specifically for Dragonfire Adept, I would suggest a gestalt with Sorcerer. Between spells that improve your breath weapon as a swift action (Stunning Breath/Dispelling Breath/Blinding Breath), powerful Dragon-themed spells (Wings of Cover, Draconic Polymorph), and a ton of flexible utility you can pick up as a tier 2 caster, you end up being a force to be reckoned with!


I'll agree that Sorcerer is going to be the way to go on this. Between the spells that add powerful carrier effects to your breath weapon (Reflex save or permanently blinded?!), spells that benefit from being Dragonblooded (mostly in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic), and strong support spells in general, you'll probably do better with this than anything else.

Okay, you've convinced me ;-). And yeah, Stalwart Sorcerer it is. I know everyone will be taking some LA too, so I'll wait to see how much they are taking before I pick my race (probably one of the Dragonspawn for more dragonny goodness ;-)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, you've convinced me ;-). And yeah, Stalwart Sorcerer it is. I know everyone will be taking some LA too, so I'll wait to see how much they are taking before I pick my race (probably one of the Dragonspawn for more dragonny goodness ;-)

Anything that gets a Cha bonus is preferable, if you're going Dragonborn you'll lose any racial traits you had prior to gaining that. The Dragonspawn templates all change your alignment to match the evil dragon who made you one, and they also enthrall you to that dragon. A freed Dragonspawn has a LA two higher than what's printed, but that's detailed in a separate book.

The Magic-Blooded template in Dragon issue 306 p64 gives -2 Wis, +2 Cha for no LA.

A Kobold can use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) to get +1 level of Sorcerer spellcasting ability. If your DM is down for it, Dragonwrought with Loredrake gives you +2 levels of Sorcerer spellcasting, but definitely ask your DM about this first. Dragonwrought also allows you to be venerable age with no penalties to get +3 Int, Wis, and Cha. The Desert Kobold (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) doesn't have a Con penalty, and they don't lose much becoming Dragonborn, just be sure to get that before adding the things that boost your casting.

Another option for increasing Cha is to go Half-Giant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) with Primordial Giant. You can make that Magic-Blooded as well, but there's no way to retain the cool spell-like ability from Primordial Giant since it's an inherited template.

Unseelie Fey is another option but extremely cheesy, considering it was misprinted to be LA +0. The winter aspect makes adjacent creatures take a penalty to saving throws equal to your Cha bonus. It doesn't say whether it's an inherited or acquired template by RAW, but the flavor text suggests it's inherited, so going Dragonborn loses the best things it grants.

Half-Fey can be gained after 1st level (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), despite being an inherited template. Use a base race that can take the feat Magic in the Blood from PGtF to make any 1/day spell-like abilities usable 3/day instead.

[lylsyly]

All 1st party, no dragmag.


The Dragonspawn templates all change your alignment to match the evil dragon who made you one We don't do alignment, and they also enthrall you to that dragon. yet the book does say some manage to act of their own free will. A freed Dragonspawn has a LA two higher than what's printed, but that's detailed in a separate book. Which is third party.

The Magic-Blooded template in Dragon issue 306 p64 gives -2 Wis, +2 Cha for no LA. See my quote above.

If your DM is down for it, Dragonwrought with Loredrake Kobolds aren't true dragons

Unseelie Fey is another option but extremely cheesy, considering it was misprinted to be LA +0. Have you got a citation for this?

Half-Fey can be gained after 1st level (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), If you take the two levels of the half-fey class

I have to go through this every time I mention Dragonspawn. I am not going to apologize for my table not being tied to RAW.

[Darg]

If you go sorcerer, I would recommend taking Swiftblade. Those extra actions and other features would really complement your DFA while benefiting from the sorcerer spell pool to compliment your strengths and cover your weaknesses.

[Rebel7284]

If you go sorcerer, I would recommend taking Swiftblade. Those extra actions and other features would really complement your DFA while benefiting from the sorcerer spell pool to compliment your strengths and cover your weaknesses.

I love swiftblade, but I am not convinced it's the best for this build. I think Swiftblade benefits from being the focus of a gestalt build such as:
Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +8/X5
//
Factotum 5/Wizard +1/Factotum +3/Wizard +1/Factotum +2/Wizard +1/Factotum +1/Y6

However, in a DFA built, it suffers from:
1. Harder requirements: without Martial Wizard levels, that's two useless feats set on fire in addition to having to find a race or dip for weapon proficiency.
2. Full BAB is mostly useless for a DFA. Why are you using attack rolls? In the couple of games I played with a DFA friend, he used an attack roll exactly once as an attack of opportunity.
3. Competing actions: when I played a Swiftblade, I found that I had too many ways that I wanted to use a swift action. You want those metabreath spells and possibly wings of cover and maybe a Belt of Battle activation, etc. etc.
4. A lot of lost casting, at least 3 levels.
5. While you get some of those nice Blurred Alacrity/Evasive Celerity class features and a good reflex save, you don't get the extra actions until level 15 at the earliest.
6. Opportunity cost, you are giving up those juicy 2HP/level and full casting

I love Swiftblade's class features, but I am not convinced it's worth the 2 feats, 3 caster levels, and a bunch of HP in this build.

Here is what I would do if Ebberon was allowed:
Dragonfire Adept 20
//
Stalwart Sorcerer 5/Mindbender 1/Stalwart Sorcerer +6/Heir of Siberys 3/Stalwart Sorcerer +5

Mindbender gives you access to Mindsight which is amazing
Heir of Siberys gives you access to:
- A high level SLA. Mindblank 2/day or Greater Teleport 2/day are both probably the most useful in high level play.
- Access to Breath of Syberis ( Dragonmarked, p. 135): +2d6 to your breath weapon if NIFTY
- Access to Mark of the Dauntless ( Dragonmarked, p. 142): Immunity to Daze, in addition to being great in general, also allows you to use Celerity to take extra actions and experience no drawbacks.

[lylsyly]

I always dip mindbender but don't really want to do any PRCing. Having said that I will look for 1 level dips with easy rpereqs that don't lose casting and add something to the build. LOL, maybe there shoukd be a one level dip handbook for each class ;-).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about DFA on one side and druid 20 on the other? Be a flame-breathing bear who summons bears.

[lylsyly]

tigers. fire breathing kitties ;-). however, druid is one class I don't play. it's enough to keep up with spells, never cared for that AND keeping track of wildshapes

[iceifur]

Is your table ignoring the suggestion of no "class combination" prestige classes? Saw the Wiz/Sorc/Utlimate Magus//Mystic Ranger and it had me wondering.

[lylsyly]

Is your table ignoring the suggestion of no "class combination" prestige classes? Saw the Wiz/Sorc/Utlimate Magus//Mystic Ranger and it had me wondering.

We play fast and loose with a lot of things ;-). Besides, Mystic Ranger is only T2 until 10th level, then it rapidly drops back to T3. And in a Non Gestalt game wiz/sorc/ultimate magus is perfectly okay. Not that I'm pointing a finger at you but one thing a lot of people don't seem to understand is that the rules, All. The. Rules. are guidelines and it's up to the group to play as they see fit.

[SirNibbles]

If you're going Sorcerer anyhow, a 1 level Monk dip and the Ascetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer, page 105) gets you +Cha to AC and your Sorcerer and Monk levels stack for your AC bonus.

[lylsyly]

I will not take a dip that loses casting no matter the benefit. I usually don't play full casters except for mystic ranger but when I do I will not lose a level of casting for any reason.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I will not take a dip that loses casting no matter the benefit. I usually don't play full casters except for mystic ranger but when I do I will not lose a level of casting for any reason.Toss it on the other side of the gestalt. You have two of them, remember.

[lylsyly]

except for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat prereq that would be doable.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wearing a Monk's Belt should give you everything you need to take Ascetic Mage. If that doesn't meet the IUS prerequisite, see if you can trade your Stalwart Sorcerer martial weapon proficiency for that and apply the free Weapon Focus to it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

except for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat prereq that would be doable.Monk gives you Improved Unarmed Strike. And it's an improved Improved Unarmed Strike.

[lylsyly]

Monks belt doesn't meet the prereq and would only give me +1 to AC and I know martial weapons are somewhat overrated but I'm condisering Abjurant Champion down the line.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Monks belt doesn't meet the prereq and would only give me +1 to AC and I know martial weapons are somewhat overrated but I'm condisering Abjurant Champion down the line.

Monk's Belt (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks):
"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

That's the entire AC Bonus class feature that a Monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) gets, which includes adding your Wis bonus to your AC.

[lylsyly]

Monk's Belt (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks):
"If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus."

That's the entire AC Bonus class feature that a Monk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) gets, which includes adding your Wis bonus to your AC.

That-s +1 to AC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That-s +1 to AC.

It's right there in the class feature:

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's right there in the class feature:

AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.And unless lylsyly rerolls, lylsyly has an 11 Wis.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And unless lylsyly rerolls, lylsyly has an 11 Wis.

The point of it was to take Ascetic Mage and add his Cha bonus to his AC instead of Wis.

[lylsyly]

The point of it was to take Ascetic Mage and add his Cha bonus to his AC instead of Wis.

Which requires a level of monk or a wasted feat to get the prereq of IUS. I will not give up either a casting level or a level of DFA to get it. I know when I do the ABS I'll be taking only 10 in WIS so.....

It's really a done deal DFA 20///Sorcerer 5/Mind Bender 1/Sorcerer (or dips that don't lose casting) 5/Abj Champ 2/then more sorc or dips till 20th.

Only question at this point is pouring thru books (or using Troacctid's excellent spreadsheet) looking for dips that lose no casting and improve BAB so I can hit Abj Champ earlier.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Which requires a level of monk or a wasted feat to get the prereq of IUS. I will not give up either a casting level or a level of DFA to get it.

It's really a done deal DFA 20///Sorcerer 5/Mind Bender 1/Sorcerer (or dips that don't lose casting) 5/Abj Champ 2/then more sorc or dips till 20th.

Only question at this point is pouring thru books (or using Troacctid's excellent spreadsheet) looking for dips that lose no casting and improve BAB so I can hit Abj Champ earlier.

Like I said, you're using Stalwart Sorcerer according to one of your earlier posts, which gets both Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with it. Ask your DM if you can replace the Martial Weapon Proficiency bonus feat with Improved Unarmed Strike, and apply the Weapon Focus to that. You're playing a dragon-themed character, you should use claws instead of weapons.

That with a Monk's Belt is everything you need to take Ascetic Mage and add your Cha bonus with an additional +1 to your AC. The Monk's Belt also improves the damage of your unarmed attacks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The fanged ring (Dragon Magic) grants Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (U.S.), and it deals Con damage on an unarmed crit. 10,000 gp.

[lylsyly]

Can't use armor with invocations. Have Breath Weapon every round. Have spells. Can use Stalwart's Martial Weapon Prof for a bow. Why would I want to get close enough to engage in melee? I suppose I COULD give up a level of Sorc for a level of Monk so I could get IUS and take Asc Mage at 3. Means I will be doing one of the Dragonspawn to replace the lost casting level and squeezing in Improved flight so I can hover.

DFA 20///Monk 1/Sorc 5/Mindbender 1/Ruather 3/Sorc +1/Abj Champ 5/Sorc or other dips +4

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can't use armor with invocations. Have Breath Weapon every round. Have spells. Can use Stalwart's Martial Weapon Prof for a bow. Why would I want to get close enough to engage in melee? I suppose I COULD give up a level of Sorc for a level of Monk so I could get IUS and take Asc Mage at 3. Means I will be doing one of the Dragonspawn to replace the lost casting level and squeezing in Improved flight so I can hover.

DFA 20///Monk 1/Sorc 5/Mindbender 1/Ruather 3/Sorc +1/Abj Champ 5/Sorc or other dips +4

Stalwart Sorcerer grants martial weapon proficiency in a melee weapon, you can't use it to get bow proficiency. You shouldn't need to make any weapon attacks in the first place between your breath weapon and your spells, but IUS lets you make attacks of opportunity when someone does get close, and having it allows you to get Ascetic Mage without a dip.

Ascetic Mage requires 2nd level spells, so you need to wait until 6th to take it. It's not worth losing a caster level to get it, take Arcane Preparation and be good aligned and you can cast (Greater) Luminous Armor without needing to take it as a spell known and your AC will be fine. That stacks with Ascetic Mage if you want to have an absurd AC, but that's more feats you would be spending on this. Being good aligned also allows you to take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224), which almost completely avoids a Sorcerer's normally limited number of spells known. You could probably even put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that and not need Arcane Preparation.

[Darg]

Stalwart Sorcerer grants martial weapon proficiency in a melee weapon, you can't use it to get bow proficiency. You shouldn't need to make any weapon attacks in the first place between your breath weapon and your spells, but IUS lets you make attacks of opportunity when someone does get close, and having it allows you to get Ascetic Mage without a dip.

Ascetic Mage requires 2nd level spells, so you need to wait until 6th to take it. It's not worth losing a caster level to get it, take Arcane Preparation and be good aligned and you can cast (Greater) Luminous Armor without needing to take it as a spell known and your AC will be fine. That stacks with Ascetic Mage if you want to have an absurd AC, but that's more feats you would be spending on this. Being good aligned also allows you to take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224), which almost completely avoids a Sorcerer's normally limited number of spells known. You could probably even put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that and not need Arcane Preparation.

Exalted spells being an exception to learning spells is news to me.