Minimum Level Monk to be UFC Champion in Real Life?

[BlueWitch]

What's the lowest level a DnD Class Monk could be to always win a UFC match and be Champion?

[weckar]

Impossible. Not *always*. The dice aren't that nice. 1s and 20s exist, and they move in herds.

[tyckspoon]

Depends in large part on how you stat a UFC fighter. Takes a lot more to overpower them if you make them like level 3 Warriors as opposed to Level 1 Commoners with Improved Grapple and/or Improved Unarmed Strike feats.

[Buddy76]

Well, at level 1 a monk already deals damage equivalent to a longsword with his fists/feet. Plus, the wisdom bonus to AC will make them abnoramally hard to hit. I find it kinda hard to model real humans using d&d stats, but I don't think UFC fighters can cause lethal damage while unarmed (otherwise UFC would be as lethal as, say, knife fighting), so they probably don't have the improved unarmed strike feat, meaning that they cause attacks of oportunity when they attack the monk. With all of that I'd say a monk can win any championship pretty easily at level 1.

[Doctor Despair]

Well, at level 1 a monk already deals damage equivalent to a longsword with his fists/feet. Plus, the wisdom bonus to AC will make them abnoramally hard to hit. I find it kinda hard to model real humans using d&d stats, but I don't think UFC fighters can cause lethal damage while unarmed (otherwise UFC would be as lethal as, say, knife fighting), so they probably don't have the improved unarmed strike feat, meaning that they cause attacks of oportunity when they attack the monk. With all of that I'd say a monk can win any championship pretty easily at level 1.

Would MMA be a better comparison, especially considering unarmed strikes in dnd use the whole body?

[tyckspoon]

Well, at level 1 a monk already deals damage equivalent to a longsword with his fists/feet. Plus, the wisdom bonus to AC will make them abnoramally hard to hit. I find it kinda hard to model real humans using d&d stats, but I don't think UFC fighters can cause lethal damage while unarmed (otherwise UFC would be as lethal as, say, knife fighting), so they probably don't have the improved unarmed strike feat, meaning that they cause attacks of oportunity when they attack the monk. With all of that I'd say a monk can win any championship pretty easily at level 1.

You are still allowed to make non-lethal/subdual attacks when you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Admittedly two people attacking each other unarmed looks pretty much the same when you *have* Improved Unarmed and when you *don't*, but 'we trained to learn how to properly hit somebody to the point where we have to wear protective equipment and specifically avoid the most effective target points so we don't kill our fight partner' seems like a pretty good example of having Improved Unarmed Strike to me.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depends in large part on how you stat a UFC fighter. Takes a lot more to overpower them if you make them like level 3 Warriors as opposed to Level 1 Commoners with Improved Grapple and/or Improved Unarmed Strike feats.Experts, not commoners. Unless they're 3rd World peasants, they wouldn't be commoners regardless.

[Elves]

Where'd you get the idea that commoner attributes reflect medieval peasant malnutrition or w/e? AFAICT they're the just the average joe lowest common denominator.

[tyckspoon]

Where'd you get the idea that commoner attributes reflect medieval peasant malnutrition or w/e? AFAICT they're the just the average joe lowest common denominator.

It's more the idea that modern standards of education mean nobody should be low-skilled enough to be a Commoner, I think. D&D classes don't really map to real life in any convincing way, tho, so I wouldn't take it too seriously - it's just something you have to sort out if you want to ask a question like 'How would Game Rules Construct X compare to Real Thing Y?' like this thread topic.

[Biggus]

What's the lowest level a DnD Class Monk could be to always win a UFC match and be Champion?

Well, that's two different questions. The devs calculated (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a) that a 7th-level Ranger would be as good a shot as a top Olympic archer, so presumably the UFC world champion would be around the same level. To always win a match they'd need to be lot higher level though: assuming the second-best UFC fighter was 7th level, and given that the DMG says you don't get experience for enemies 8 or more CRs below your level because they're no longer a challenge, theoretically a 15th-level Monk would have an effectively nonexistent chance of losing.

[Buddy76]

You are still allowed to make non-lethal/subdual attacks when you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Admittedly two people attacking each other unarmed looks pretty much the same when you *have* Improved Unarmed and when you *don't*, but 'we trained to learn how to properly hit somebody to the point where we have to wear protective equipment and specifically avoid the most effective target points so we don't kill our fight partner' seems like a pretty good example of having Improved Unarmed Strike to me.

Fair enough, they could be choosing to deal non-lethal damage. But even the best fighter can't deal damage equivalent to a knife wound with his body (considering that unarmed attacks and daggers are almost equivalent in d&d but the latter does cause lethal damage). Not saying that I want to be punched by a professional fighter or that one can't beat a person to death, but it's definetely harder than killing someone with a knife. When they are in the ring the gloves actually enable them to strike harder, specially at the head, and people use protective gear during sparring to prevent injury and long term wear and tear damage. Knife fighting, on the other hand needs to be practiced with a blunt knife or with those knifes that shock you when they make contact.

Hit die are a bit of an odd construct to translate in real life, though. Considering the link that Biggus provided, an Olympian or top fighter would be around 7th level and able to take a few dagger strikes without slowing down, using d&d rules. In light of this information I'd have to agree with his calculations.

[BlueWitch]

Fair enough, they could be choosing to deal non-lethal damage. But even the best fighter can't deal damage equivalent to a knife wound with his body (considering that unarmed attacks and daggers are almost equivalent in d&d but the latter does cause lethal damage). Not saying that I want to be punched by a professional fighter or that one can't beat a person to death, but it's definetely harder than killing someone with a knife. When they are in the ring the gloves actually enable them to strike harder, specially at the head, and people use protective gear during sparring to prevent injury and long term wear and tear damage. Knife fighting, on the other hand needs to be practiced with a blunt knife or with those knifes that shock you when they make contact.

Hit die are a bit of an odd construct to translate in real life, though. Considering the link that Biggus provided, an Olympian or top fighter would be around 7th level and able to take a few dagger strikes without slowing down, using d&d rules. In light of this information I'd have to agree with his calculations.

I get what you're saying. Monk's in DnD use Ki to Harden their limbs when they strike. So that's how their fist is literally strong as Iron. Which would be like a Mace.

I kinda lean toward thinking a Monk wouldn't have to be as high leveled as a Commoner with Improved Unarmed Strike.

[SirNibbles]

I don't think UFC fighters can cause lethal damage while unarmed (otherwise UFC would be as lethal as, say, knife fighting), so they probably don't have the improved unarmed strike feat, meaning that they cause attacks of opportunity when they attack the monk. With all of that I'd say a monk can win any championship pretty easily at level 1.

Excellent point.

If that doesn't seal it, surely being able to turn invisible at level 2 would.