any spell that makes spell components other than wish and true creation?

[newguydude1]

trying to cheat simulacrums material cost.
xp cost is easily cheated by ambrosia + scroll crafting. just bring 500doses of ambrosia.
so that leaves the 1000gp of powdered rubies.

wish is too late. 17th level is rare and game rarely lasts long after that.
true creation 15th level, still too late, and requires some help to obtain.

i thought about summon component + fabricate, but you gotta intentionally misinterpret fabricate for this to work so thats a no.

so any other spell?

[Doctor Despair]

Epic feat "Ignore Material Components" probably isn't what you're looking for

Summon a wall of salt and break WBL so you don't have to worry about component costs?

[newguydude1]

Epic feat "Ignore Material Components" probably isn't what you're looking for

Summon a wall of salt and break WBL so you don't have to worry about component costs?

i don't want to rely on an entire nations supply chain.

dropped in hell, middle of nowhere, i want my character to pump out simulacra while hiding in a hole underground.

edit: i know about dweomerkeeper. just looking for less optimized options.

[Venger]

Make it into a sla. This is doable in many ways such as a 1 level dip in hierophant or archmage

[newguydude1]

Make it into a sla. This is doable in many ways such as a 1 level dip in hierophant or archmage

interesting. on the down side 10 times the gp cost so thats 10000xp cost. why do these two prcs betray the 1xp = 5gp rule?

so if i get it as an archmage sla, can i still use it for scroll crafting and pay the 11000xp cost instead of the 1000gp cost?

[Venger]

interesting. on the down side 10 times the gp cost so thats 10000xp cost. why do these two prcs betray the 1xp = 5gp rule?

so if i get it as an archmage sla, can i still use it for scroll crafting and pay the 11000xp cost instead of the 1000gp cost?

It's not a rule, is why. slas don't have components including xp, so you don't pay it at all. You could cast it as a sla from archmage by converting one of your slots into a 2/day sla, but you could not code your simulacrum ability into a scroll and then later cast that scroll for no xp, because slas can't be used to make scrolls.

[sreservoir]

slas don't have components including xp, so you don't pay it at all.

It takes some impressive chutzpah to argue that explicitly retained/added xp costs don't exist because the general rules for spell-like abilities take precedent over the ability description which, in no uncertain terms, tells you that it's still there.


You could cast it as a sla from archmage by converting one of your slots into a 2/day sla, but you could not code your simulacrum ability into a scroll and then later cast that scroll for no xp, because slas can't be used to make scrolls.


A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites)

The scroll is still priced as if you were making it with the spell version, though, afaict. The magic item has additional costs according to the spell it's based on; this has nothing to do with whether or not you're actually casting the spell, and in fact you don't consume components every day you consume the spell slots while making the item, either (and you do consume the spell slot multiple times, because the base price of the scroll is 7*13*25=2275 gp, 3 days where you expend the spell slot each day).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unlike arcane/divine fabricate, psionic fabricate doesn't make half the materials go up in smoke, so use 333.34 gp in ruby to craft 1,000 gp in ruby dust as an art project. (Crafting requires 1/3 the cost of the final product in raw materials.)

[sreservoir]

Unlike arcane/divine fabricate, psionic fabricate doesn't make half the materials go up in smoke, so use 333.34 gp in ruby to craft 1,000 gp in ruby dust as an art project. (Crafting requires 1/3 the cost of the final product in raw materials.)

To be fair, even a literal reading of spell fabricate still gets you 50% ahead, you just need to use 334 gp of ruby to craft your other 334 gp of ruby into 1002 gp of ruby dust.

Gotta wonder what you can use those 1125 gp scrolls of fabricate on the treasure tables for, though...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

To be fair, even a literal reading of spell fabricate still gets you 50% ahead, you just need to use 334 gp of ruby to craft your other 334 gp of ruby into 1002 gp of ruby dust.

Gotta wonder what you can use those 1125 gp scrolls of fabricate on the treasure tables for, though...It only works on substances the individual scroll was made for (as it requires the material component to be used during the making of the scroll), and it can only be used for a material with a 0 gp price tag.

[St Fan]

It's not a spell, by the Geometer prestige class has a class feature, Spellglyph, that can replace any material component with an arcane diagram on a scroll.

It's actually more expensive than the usual component (25 gp/spell level+normal cost of a component above 1gp), but it can be handy if said real component is very rare and/or impossible to find, or won't even be considered because of alignment concerns (like some spells from the Book of Vile Darkness -- fresh heart from a dwarf child, yuck).

[Asmotherion]

1st level spell "summon component". Complete Mage, 118. Note that it's also persistable.

Eschew Materials feat too.

Edit: I Adress this for the Part were you need a hair or body piece.

But, yeah, any of the various monetary exploits. Since you're probably an Arcane Caster, the Salt Mine with Skeletons is the easyest to pull. If you don't go overboard with it, your DM may allow it too.

Is there a reason you can't teleport in-out of that place?

[newguydude1]

The scroll is still priced as if you were making it with the spell version, though, afaict. The magic item has additional costs according to the spell it's based on; this has nothing to do with whether or not you're actually casting the spell, and in fact you don't consume components every day you consume the spell slots while making the item, either (and you do consume the spell slot multiple times, because the base price of the scroll is 7*13*25=2275 gp, 3 days where you expend the spell slot each day).


If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself. Likewise, a material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not.

so
1. your wrong that "this has nothing to do with whether or not you're actually casting the spell." if you dont need components then you dont need components when providing the spell. for example, a wizard using eschew materials can ignore the material component of fireball when making a scroll of it. but an artificer who has eschew materials cant because eschew materials has no interaction with his spell substituting thing.

2. scrolls only need to trigger the spell once regardless of how long the crafting process takes.


Unlike arcane/divine fabricate, psionic fabricate doesn't make half the materials go up in smoke, so use 333.34 gp in ruby to craft 1,000 gp in ruby dust as an art project. (Crafting requires 1/3 the cost of the final product in raw materials.)

so my dm has memorized the fabricate description. he says "product". a pile of ruby is not a product. if i fabricate a ruby into a ruby art object, then turn it into powdered rubies, he says 334gp. because a 1000gp ruby art object destroyed into powder is gonna lose its value.

or something like that. anyways he firmly ruled fabricate is fullmetal alchemist transmutation and nothing more. not gonna test him on that.


It's not a spell, by the Geometer prestige class has a class feature, Spellglyph, that can replace any material component with an arcane diagram on a scroll.

It's actually more expensive than the usual component (25 gp/spell level+normal cost of a component above 1gp), but it can be handy if said real component is very rare and/or impossible to find, or won't even be considered because of alignment concerns (like some spells from the Book of Vile Darkness -- fresh heart from a dwarf child, yuck).

does that mean i can use major creation to create the spellglyph ink and make scrolls of simulacra for free? major creation prohibits being used as a material component, so is spellglyph exotic ink classified as "material component"?


Is there a reason you can't teleport in-out of that place?

i want my character to be functional without an entire nations supply chain. dweomerkeeper fits the bill but trying to be less optimized. so something like dweomerkeeper except its okay to require downtime.

[St Fan]

does that mean i can use major creation to create the spellglyph ink and make scrolls of simulacra for free? major creation prohibits being used as a material component, so is spellglyph exotic ink classified as "material component"?



I thought about it too, but the class feature includes this clear mention: "An expended spellglyph disappears, just like any other material component."

So yes, the ink probably count as a material component and can't be made through major creation. At least, it's very likely to be ruled so by any prudent DM.

The ultimate "eschew expensive components" trick still remains Supernatural Spell from Dweomerkeeper. Of course, this one has the limitation of working only with spells of "1 standard action or less" casting time.

[Doctor Despair]

The ultimate "eschew expensive components" trick still remains Supernatural Spell from Dweomerkeeper. Of course, this one has the limitation of working only with spells of "1 standard action or less" casting time.


Uncanny Forethought

Spell Mastery (X)

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos to shuffle Spell Mastery to whatever you want to cast as a standard action

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If your DM houserules fabricate and the Crafting rules to not work as they're supposed to, I don't think you're going to be getting anything at all out of this thread, because he'll do the same to whatever you pull out of it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here, read this, it's a handbook on these topics:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aG4P3dU6WP3pq8mW9l1qztFeNfqQHyI22oJe09i8KWw/edit

[newguydude1]

If your DM houserules fabricate and the Crafting rules to not work as they're supposed to, I don't think you're going to be getting anything at all out of this thread, because he'll do the same to whatever you pull out of it.

its not a house rule. its a valid interpretation.


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.

you convert material into product. a dm gets to decide what constitutes a product. if he says a larger pile of powdered rubies is not a product then its not a product.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

its not a house rule. its a valid interpretation.

you convert material into product. a dm gets to decide what constitutes a product. if he says a larger pile of powdered rubies is not a product then its not a product.A Craft check also converts an object from one material to another of the same material that costs three times as much. Fabricate only expedites the process at the cost of eating half of it as a material component. (Psionic fabricate does away with that last part.)

Saying that the Craft skill no longer does that is a houserule.

[newguydude1]

A Craft check also converts an object from one material to another of the same material that costs three times as much. Fabricate only expedites the process at the cost of eating half of it as a material component. (Psionic fabricate does away with that last part.)

Saying that the Craft skill no longer does that is a houserule.

does craft skill say you can turn a pile of gold into a pile of gold thats three times larger? you can only craft items with a craft dc. if your dm lists a pile of ruby as a craftable item then good for your table. id abuse it too. but my dm says you cant craft a pile of powdered rubies and i dont see how this is a house rule so your incorrect. multiple interpretations, my dm went the more restrictive one.

[Darg]

Warlock's imbue item allows you to bypass the spell component of crafting.

A custom x/day item of Body Outside Body can be used to bypass the xp cost of the archmage's SLA use (the duplicates get your level which means xp and your SLAs from those class levels). But be sure to get uncanny forethought first to reduce the cast time prior.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

does craft skill say you can turn a pile of gold into a pile of gold thats three times larger? you can only craft items with a craft dc. if your dm lists a pile of ruby as a craftable item then good for your table. id abuse it too. but my dm says you cant craft a pile of powdered rubies and i dont see how this is a house rule so your incorrect. multiple interpretations, my dm went the more restrictive one.I can't imagine that powdered ruby is easy to make. The extra gp costs come from the effort that it takes to grind ruby into a fine powder. And glitter is definitely an art object.

If your DM houserules it, it's fine, but it IS a houserule by definition, since he says the RAW doesn't work as they say they do.

[newguydude1]

I can't imagine that powdered ruby is easy to make. The extra gp costs come from the effort that it takes to grind ruby into a fine powder. And glitter is definitely an art object.

If your DM houserules it, it's fine, but it IS a houserule by definition, since he says the RAW doesn't work as they say they do.

smashing a rock into a powder doesnt require a skill check. an animated object who is mindless and therefore has no skill points can smash the rock into a powder within 1minute. you dont use the rules that tell you it takes a month or a year to "craft" a pile of powder.

would you use a craft check to chew your own food to smaller pieces before swallowing? i dont see how calling a pile of rubies as not something you craft is a house rule.


Warlock's imbue item allows you to bypass the spell component of crafting.

A custom x/day item of Body Outside Body can be used to bypass the xp cost of the archmage's SLA use (the duplicates get your level which means xp and your SLAs from those class levels). But be sure to get uncanny forethought first to reduce the cast time prior.

is using an sla count as casting spells? body outside body duplicate cant cast spells.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

smashing a rock into a powder doesnt require a skill check. an animated object who is mindless and therefore has no skill points can smash the rock into a powder within 1minute. you dont use the rules that tell you it takes a month or a year to "craft" a pile of powder.

would you use a craft check to chew your own food to smaller pieces before swallowing? i dont see how calling a pile of rubies as not something you craft is a house rule.Sure, if all you think it takes it to hit with a rock. Except it's much, much more difficult than that.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby#:~:text=Rubies%20have%20a%20hardness%20of,rub y)%20and%20diamond%20in%20hardness.), "Rubies have a hardness of 9.0 on the Mohs scale of mineral hardness. Among the natural gems only moissanite and diamond are harder, with diamond having a Mohs hardness of 10.0 and moissanite falling somewhere in between corundum (ruby) and diamond in hardness."

I don't think you're going to be powderizing it in a reasonable timeframe with a regular rock without mixing powdered rock in with it.

That's the reason using the Craft skill to turn rubies into powdered ruby is so expensive, because it's really, really difficult.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sure, if all you think it takes it to hit with a rock. Except it's much, much more difficult than that.

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby#:~:text=Rubies%20have%20a%20hardness%20of,rub y)%20and%20diamond%20in%20hardness.), "Rubies have a hardness of 9.0 on the Mohs scale of mineral hardness. Among the natural gems only moissanite and diamond are harder, with diamond having a Mohs hardness of 10.0 and moissanite falling somewhere in between corundum (ruby) and diamond in hardness."

I don't think you're going to be powderizing it in a reasonable timeframe with a regular rock without mixing powdered rock in with it.

That's the reason using the Craft skill to turn rubies into powdered ruby is so expensive, because it's really, really difficult.

It's easy to smash hard rocks like rubies and diamonds into powder.

They're hard to scratch the surface of, not hard to smash into pieces.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's easy to smash hard rocks like rubies and diamonds into powder.

They're hard to scratch the surface of, not hard to smash into pieces.Grinding into a fine, even powder that's suitable for casting a really expensive spell, though? Without getting bits of rock or whatever mixed in?

[Bullet06320]

Grinding into a fine, even powder that's suitable for casting a really expensive spell, though? Without getting bits of rock or whatever mixed in?

prestidigitation takes care of the rock bits left over


Gather: You neatly collect numerous objects. The objects you gather can be no larger than Fine size, no two items can be more than 10 feet apart, and their total weight cannot exceed 1 pound. You can place the gathered objects into a container you touch, or you can form a stack or pile that you touch.

You can gather selectively; for instance, you can pick up just the coins from an area.


http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707

[gijoemike]

Grinding into a fine, even powder that's suitable for casting a really expensive spell, though? Without getting bits of rock or whatever mixed in?

As silly as this argument is I have to agree with MaxiDuRaritry on this. Having a fine even powder is a product that requires special tools and knowledge to make properly. The quality of the final product really matters here. It has a value of 1000gp by your own admittance. Because it has known objective value we must ask how do I make, gather, create thing X that has 1000g value. I must use craft or survival to obtain the product. One doesn't find ruby dust on the ground to be picked up like a flower. That leaves us craft. One cannot argue ruby dust is a natural material to be gathered it must be created via a process.

How does the craft still work? 1/3 of the products cost is converted into the final product. The raw material is a ruby. So a ruby worth 333 gp 3sp 4 cp is used to make 1000gp in ruby by product (fine grain powdered dust). This takes time to make sure the texture and size of the particles are correct. It is not accomplished by a skilll-ess sloped foreheaded thug in a few minutes. That guy gets you shards of ruby in an uneven powder clumps spread all over the room. That is worthless to you.

What craft skill should we use then? Easy Craft(Gem-cutting) is the craft that deals with altering gems and breaking them down.

Given the above info - What does your GM state on how one makes items that have a gp value? The only way I know how is to use craft or survival. It definitely sounds like your GM is house ruling against your ability to improve your situation and gear. Would he also argue one needs 1000gp of impure ore to create 1000gp of iron ingots? Or needs 1000gp of coal coke and iron to make 1000gp of steel? Or perhaps it takes 330 gp of steel to make a masterwork sword? Why do those items appreciate in value when worked upon?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

prestidigitation takes care of the rock bits left over

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707Well, yes. It's easy with magic. But the point is that without it, it's quite difficult to perform that level of effort. That's why using Craft checks would make it work, and why it'd be so expensive. Magic just cuts so many corners that it becomes much easier, like with so many other things.

[newguydude1]

its not fine powdered ruby. its powdered ruby.

anyways

fabricate side:
1. fabricate turns materials into a product. dm gets to decide what a product is
2. if you ignore the material component by using the psionic version, doesnt matter. ruled as written fabricates material component is not the target of the spell, and needs to be provided in addition to your target. you still obey the conservation of mass and energy if the dm wants you to. so if you dont have enough of the original material to create a product then the spell doesnt do anything.
3. ruled as written, fabricate can only create products made up of a single material. so if you want to make a door with metal hinges with fabricate, your out of luck. you can make a wooden door with wooden hinges, or a metal door with metal hinges, but cant mix and match.

crafting side:
1. dm gets to decide what constitutes raw materials for a crafted item. if he says 3lbs of gold is not the raw materials for 9lbs of gold then thats that. the end. not a house rule.

put all this together, by raw, a dm can say if you want 1000gp of powdered rubies which weighs 10lbs, then you must target 10lbs of rubies with the spell while annihilating 334gp of rubies as a material component.

none of this is house ruling.

[Gavinfoxx]

Still, in my guide I methodically talk about all the different spells which create different types of matter ex nihilo. Unfortunately, there aren't too many of them, you're likely going to have to get the help of a Djinn or something.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just buy a chaos flask, from the PlH. 100 gp, and it can make a ruby that you can then hit with a rock or something to break it, no Craft checks necessary, apparently.

[Darg]

Fabricate's material component is the material to be converted:


Material Component

The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.

So there is no mass loss, just the conversion of one item into another. The original item no longer exists and therefore satisfies annihilation.

Anyways, truenamer with the Rebuild Item utterance with a skull talisman of Simulacrum can simply make an army of simulcrums for basically the cost of one magic item.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fabricate's material component is the material to be converted:

So there is no mass loss, just the conversion of one item into another. The original item no longer exists and therefore satisfies annihilation.

Anyways, truenamer with the Rebuild Item utterance with a skull talisman of Simulacrum can simply make an army of simulcrums for basically the cost of one magic item.Material components are destroyed upon casting the spell. So you're saying the spell simply destroys material as it's converted, but it's destroyed, so you cast it and get nothing as a result.

Otherwise, it's basically material of the same type to be converted; it's expensive, but it at least functions then.

Psionic fabricate doesn't have these problems, since you target the material to be destroyed altered.

[iceifur]

If you're willing to dip your toes in the Pathfinder fountain, you could make use of the Blood Money (https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Blood%20Money) spell.

It doesn't suffer at all from being early in the Pathfinder print run

[Darg]

Material components are destroyed upon casting the spell. So you're saying the spell simply destroys material as it's converted, but it's destroyed, so you cast it and get nothing as a result.

Otherwise, it's basically material of the same type to be converted; it's expensive, but it at least functions then.

Psionic fabricate doesn't have these problems, since you target the material to be destroyed altered.

The material as it was is destroyed. Being converted into something else causes the original form to cease its existence which is the definition of annihilation. RAW it works. If RAW posits multiple outcomes then occam's razor would apply. The simplest outcome would be that the original material as the spell says is converted into the new object. Besides, what happened to specific trumps general?

[newguydude1]

The material as it was is destroyed. Being converted into something else causes the original form to cease its existence which is the definition of annihilation. RAW it works. If RAW posits multiple outcomes then occam's razor would apply. The simplest outcome would be that the original material as the spell says is converted into the new object. Besides, what happened to specific trumps general?

the spell has to function without material components. so your stretched definition of annihilation will result in psionic fabricate creating everything out of nothing. so i think your interpretation cant be right.

in my example, dm gets to decide what the 10lbs of rubies are worth. it could be 334gp. it could be 1000gp and fabricate doesnt change the value as your not crafting anything. and you have to provide 334gp of rubies of any mass on top of that. everything works. your interpretation fails with psionic and slas of fabricate.

[Darg]

the spell has to function without material components. so your stretched definition of annihilation will result in psionic fabricate creating everything out of nothing. so i think your interpretation cant be right.

in my example, dm gets to decide what the 10lbs of rubies are worth. it could be 334gp. it could be 1000gp and fabricate doesnt change the value as your not crafting anything. and you have to provide 334gp of rubies of any mass on top of that. everything works. your interpretation fails with psionic and slas of fabricate.

I don't get what people are saying about Fabricate, Psionic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fabricatePsionic.htm) not having a material cost when it's right there in the description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm). Nothing says a power can't have a material component if it literally references a spell with that exact material component.

Even spell to power erudite mentions that expensive materials remain as a cost.

[Venger]

Powers are spell like abilities and thus do not have components. That's what the "as noted here" means.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't get what people are saying about Fabricate, Psionic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fabricatePsionic.htm) not having a material cost when it's right there in the description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm). Nothing says a power can't have a material component if it literally references a spell with that exact material component.

Even spell to power erudite mentions that expensive materials remain as a cost.Ahem.


Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)
The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability
<snip>
Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components

Manifesting does not use material components (with the StP erudite apparently being the one exception, but that just proves the rule).

Psionic fabricate does not state an exception to this.

Instead of having nonsensical material components that destroy what you're trying to change as you change it (and thus making the spell useless for its intended purpose), it targets the materials and alters them that way.

Honestly, fabricate is a terribly written spell, just like so many others. The only way for it to work properly is to destroy half the materials to alter the other half, as the components are destroyed as they're being changed, and the end result is a bunch of stuff going up in smoke and a wasted spell slot (unless you were wanting to destroy the materials in the first place).

[Darg]

Ahem.

Maybe if you read the part before you would see the mistake.


Special Abilities

Psionic creatures can create psionic effects without having levels in a psionic class (although they can take a psionic class to further enhance their abilities); such creatures have the psionic subtype.

Characters using dorjes, cognizance crystals, and other psionic items can also create psionic effects. In addition to existing spell-like and supernatural abilities, creatures can also have psi-like abilities. (Psionic creatures may also have extraordinary and natural abilities.)

Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.

Psi-like abilities are subject to power resistance and to being dispelled by dispel psionics. They do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed or negated.

Supernatural Abilities

Some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as powers can be, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be negated or dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed.

So basically your reference is saying that creatures with the psionic subtype with their Psi-like abilities are Psi-like abilities. Otherwise powers manifested by creatures without a psionic class are psi-like. I see nothing about powers given by a class being psi-like at all.

[Venger]

It's right there. It's the first sentence of the section you've quoted:

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability
Powers are psi-like abilities.

[Darg]

It's right there. It's the first sentence of the section you've quoted:

Powers are psi-like abilities.

Really? The first sentence says "Psionic creatures can create psionic effects without having levels in a psionic class (although they can take a psionic class to further enhance their abilities); such creatures have the psionic subtype."

Something you are also ignoring:


Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost).

Welp, looks like xp costs get ignored. Free wishes for everyone!

Seriously, is it that hard to see they over saturated the meaning of psionic character when the meaning based on context is actually different?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Really? The first sentence says "Psionic creatures can create psionic effects without having levels in a psionic class (although they can take a psionic class to further enhance their abilities); such creatures have the psionic subtype."Psionic classes grant the [psionic] subtype, but creatures that are already [psionic] don't require psionic classes to do their thing.


Welp, looks like xp costs get ignored. Free wishes for everyone!Specific vs general. The general rule is that psi-likes don't require XP, but class-granted powers do.

Likewise, the only manifesters that require components (other than XP components) are StP erudites, because that's specifically in their ACF entry.

[Darg]

Specific vs general. The general rule is that psi-likes don't require XP, but class-granted powers do.

...It is a specific rule. It says to specifically ignore the xp costs associated with the power. If what you are saying is true then the no xp cost rule is invalidated for all creatures. That is simply ridiculous.

I also find it disingenuous when you want to group them together, but then separate them out to validate your reasoning. I've never seen a psi-like use pp before and I've never seen a power that used pp be referred to as psi-like until now.

Want me to point out another line that's been ignored?


In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.

Even more specific rules.