Is Turn Undead really that bad? (an observation)

[Miles Invictus]

I've heard that Turn Undead is considered a pretty weak ability. While building a Cleric for a new campaign, I took a closer look at it, as well as the stats of standard undead enemies.

I noticed something: most undead enemies in Core are actually pretty easy to turn. A cleric, with no turning feats, who rolls strictly average on his turn attempt can turn HD equal to his cleric level + 7 + Cha. If he focuses on turning -- say Improved Turning and a Cha mod of +2 -- he will usually turn HD equal to his cleric level + 10.

Given a CR-appropriate encounter, this is sufficient to turn most undead creatures in Core. With the exception of high-level undead templates (like zombies or skeletons), undead HD seems to top out at CR+5, which a turning-focused Cleric will almost always be able to overcome. He may not be able to destroy truly dangerous undead outright, but he can buy several rounds for the party to react, and break single encounters with lots of undead into multiple smaller encounters.

So, Turn Undead is not quite as bad as I thought it was. :smallsmile:

Thoughts?

[Tor the Fallen]

But how often are you facing Undead?

[cupkeyk]

Huh? Turning is an amazing ability and whoever says otherwise is on some pretty serious drugs. It opens the way to Divina Metacheese as well as the various Domain Devotion feats. This makes Turn undead useful against 100% of your opponents instead of 10%; because you know, how many times in your career will you fight undead.

[Darkxarth]

The same idea applies to the Ranger's Favored Enemy. It's essentially useless unless you know you're going to be facing that particular kind of enemy. Granted, the Ranger gets to choose a type of enemy, but his bonuses are significantly crappier than the Cleric's turn or destroy.

[Fax Celestis]

But how often are you facing Undead?

Better question: how often are you facing undead that don't have Turn Resistance?

Further, the turn undead mechanic is the clunkiest piece of trash in the entire game. Roll 1d20, add some mods. Then roll 2d6, add some mods. Then choose the closest targets that fit within your radius of effect: they're now fleeing, unless you move within 10' of them, in which case the whole turning thing is gone.

It'd just be a lot easier to have a fixed number based on cleric level for Max HD affected, and a die roll for total amount of HD you can turn. It'd also be more in line with the rest of the game's mechanics.

[spotmarkedx]

I noticed something: most undead enemies in Core are actually pretty easy to turn. A cleric, with no turning feats, who rolls strictly average on his turn attempt can turn HD equal to his cleric level + 7 + Cha. Wait. What?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

A cleric that rolls maximum on his charisma check turns undead of a maximum # of hit dice that are equal to his level+4. This is the problem.

Yes, turning can delay your encounters with undead (well, as long as they aren't fighter-type undead since you'll average about 2HD per CR. Or any undead with, say, turn resistance like spectres or vampires) or even take out a fair number of lower CR creatures all in a single sweep. Its the equal CR or BBEG undead that ignore it. Compound this with the fact that the higher level you get, the less likely you'll see something that is hd=1/2cleric level...

[Kurald Galain]

It would seem that the issue is that those undead that can feasibly be turned, can also easier be dealt with in other ways than turning.

[Tor the Fallen]

Smart villains like to stick a few shambling undead around their hidey-holes, so the party cleric will say "wait, let me turn them," then, while everyone's looking up the rules on turning, the villain secretly begins buffing himself for battle.

Err, I mean, while the party stays 10 feet away and hucks crap at the turned minions, the villain is buffing.

[Tor the Fallen]

It would seem that the issue is that those undead that can feasibly be turned, can also easier be dealt with in other ways than turning.

A horde of shadows can be a bitch, especially if Batman prepared the wrong spells, and Choppy McHack left the ghost touch sword in the other bag of holding. And off course, Kidney Carver is going to have a hell of a time sneak attacking things without viddles, I mean vitals.

[Nermy]

Destroying undead with sun domain type feats/class features is nice, and divine feats range from decent to horrifyingly broken. So turn undead is pretty bad as a class ability, but being able to channel divine energy is good!

[elliott20]

turn undead is only useful because of all the wonderful divine feats that it powers.

[Fax Celestis]

Further, the turn undead mechanic is the clunkiest piece of trash in the entire game. Roll 1d20, add some mods. Then roll 2d6, add some mods. Then choose the closest targets that fit within your radius of effect: they're now fleeing, unless you move within 10' of them, in which case the whole turning thing is gone.

Let me amend my statement here:

"Further, the turn undead mechanic is the clunkiest piece of trash in the entire game. Roll 1d20, add some mods, look up the result on a table. Then roll 2d6, add some mods. Ask the DM how many HD the creatures have--information he probably shouldn't be giving you. Then choose the closest targets that fit the terms provided by your rolls within your radius of effect: they're now fleeing, unless you move within 10' of them, in which case the whole turning thing is gone."

You should never have to look up on a table.

[Miles Invictus]

Wait. What?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead

A cleric that rolls maximum on his charisma check turns undead of a maximum # of hit dice that are equal to his level+4. This is the problem.

Dammit, I misread that part. :smallmad: That...doesn't make it horrible, but it makes turning very, very screwy. A high level Skeleton or Zombie, for example, can't be turned in a CR-appropriate encounter, but you've got a decent chance of turning an intelligent undead like a Mummy, a Lich, or a Vampire, since their CR is based directly on HD.

Turn Resistance doesn't seem to be that powerful. Most of the creatures that have it have CR equal to their HD+2, which means that in a fair encounter they'll be facing clerics two levels higher than normal, which means that the cleric is basically trying to turn a creature with only two more hit dice than he has. If the cleric has Improved Turning and a Cha of 14, he can turn it with a roll of 11. (Turning damage is irrelevant, as the lowest level the cleric can turn is his level + 2.)

[Jack Mann]

One problem is that it's rarely worth remaining a pure-class cleric, since the only thing you have to lose is your turn progression. Given what you can get from prestige class levels, it just doesn't make sense to keep single class cleric for the course of your career. And as you climb up in levels, the more HD the undead have for your level. Heaven forfend you should face advanced undead; at a rate of 4 HD/1 CR, they'll be untouchable. Thus, most people leave cleric fairly early on, letting their turning level fall to the wayside.

Granted, you might take one of the turn-advancing prestige classes, like Radiant Servant of Pelor or Sacred Exorcist, but they're not everyone's cup of tea.

[elliott20]

funny, the only time I would leave a cleric class is when I can gain the caster levels from another PrC. (Which admittly, is not that hard to come by)

[Fax Celestis]

Dammit, I misread that part. :smallmad: That...doesn't make it horrible, but it makes turning very, very screwy. A high level Skeleton or Zombie, for example, can't be turned in a CR-appropriate encounter, but you've got a decent chance of turning an intelligent undead like a Mummy, a Lich, or a Vampire, since their CR is based directly on HD.

Turn Resistance doesn't seem to be that powerful. Most of the creatures that have it have CR equal to their HD+2, which means that in a fair encounter they'll be facing clerics two levels higher than normal, which means that the cleric is basically trying to turn a creature with only two more hit dice than he has. If the cleric has Improved Turning and a Cha of 14, he can turn it with a roll of 11. (Turning damage is irrelevant, as the lowest level the cleric can turn is his level + 2.)

The turn resistance double-threat is as follows (and it's explicitly due to the clunkiness of the mechanic I outlined above): When you roll to see what is the maximum number of HD you affect, Turn Resistance applies. When you roll to see how many total HD you can turn, Turn Resistance applies again.

[Larrin]

The effects of turning are situationally useful, but the mechanics themselves to actually turn the undead are klunky, and most of the time people use turning attempts to fuel various other feats/powers that are always usefull and easier to use.....

....feats/powers that were designed because "no one" was actually using their turn attempts....

(ie, 90% of the time a clerice went to bed without ever touching his turning resevoir)

[Kaelik]

funny, the only time I would leave a cleric class is when I can gain the caster levels from another PrC. (Which admittly, is not that hard to come by)

That's the only time anyone ever leaves the Cleric class. But everyone leaves the Cleric class to do exactly that.

It's like saying that a Wizard only leaves when he gets caster levels elsewhere. Saying that doesn't change the fact that Wizard ranges between a 2 level class and a 5 level class.

[Shisumo]

Crappy? Well, let's see here (using the PHBII "Defender" Cleric, as a human):

{table=head]Cleric Level|
Avg Turning[br]Modifier|
SRD Undead[br]with CR=Level|
Avg Hit Dice[br](incl. Turn Resist)|
Turning[br]Check Needed

1st|
+2|
Ghoul, wolf skeleton,[br]troglodyte zombie|
3|
11+

2nd|
+4|
owlbear skeleton,[br]bugbear zombie|
6|
15+

3rd|
+4|
allip, ghast,[br]shadow, troll[br]skeleton, wight,[br]ogre zombie|
6|
12+|

4th|
+4|
chimera skeleton,[br]vampire spawn,[br]minotaur zombie,[br]wyvern zombie|
10|
N/A

5th|
+4|
mummy, ettin[br]skeleton, wraith|
7|
9+

6th|
+4|
advanced megaraptor[br]skeleton, gray[br]render zombie|
16|
N/A

7th|
+4|
cloud giant[br]skeleton, spectre|
13|
N/A

8th|
+4|
bodak, mohrg,[br]greater shadow,[br]young adult red[br]dragon skeleton|
13|
18+[/table]

Notice that even by 8th level, it's already becoming difficult or impossible to use turning to any real effect. Also note that the "Defender" is somewhat turning focused, having both Improved Turning and Extra Turning. While there are numerous effects out there that can improve turning bonuses and capabilities, how much effort do you really want to put into fighting one particular creature type?

[Aquillion]

Smart villains like to stick a few shambling undead around their hidey-holes, so the party cleric will say "wait, let me turn them," then, while everyone's looking up the rules on turning, the villain secretly begins buffing himself for battle.

Err, I mean, while the party stays 10 feet away and hucks crap at the turned minions, the villain is buffing.While everything else people have said against it is true, I do have to correct this:
If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect.You (the cleric who performed the turning) cannot approach within ten feet of them. Anyone else can.

Not that it matters, since monsters in general and undead in particular tend to have more HD than the players at appropriate CR anyway as you go up in level--often overwhelmingly more HD. This makes turning almost completely useless against anything you would actually want to use it on.

[Kurald Galain]

Ask the DM how many HD the creatures have--information he probably shouldn't be giving you[/I].

To be fair, the table in earlier editions simply specified what kind of undead you'd turn with what roll. On a 3+, skeletons; on a 5+, zombies; on an 8+, wights. Et cetera.

Then, when you meet a monster that is not any of these basic undead... er... well... I suppose you ask the DM anyway :smalltongue:

[Kantolin]

To be fair, if you fight the traditional necromancer-and-ten-billion-skeletons, then one turning lets you pop a good amount of them without taking up a spell slot or anything.

[KIDS]

Early on it is very good versus hordes of mooks and good rolls can get rid of vampires or vampire spawn pretty easily, moreso with Sun or Glory domains. However, at higher levels its efficiency pales as everything has either massively more HD than you cleric levels or Turn Resistance or both. Try turning a Nightcrawler as a lvl 18 cleric and you'll see what I mean.

[Hecore]

A horde of shadows can be a bitch, especially if Batman prepared the wrong spells, and Choppy McHack left the ghost touch sword in the other bag of holding. And off course, Kidney Carver is going to have a hell of a time sneak attacking things without viddles, I mean vitals.

I thought viddles = victuals? Anyway, turning is very situationally useful (and becomes even less useful at higher levels). However, it becomes even worse when the player can turn those uses into something better, like Divine Might/Shield or metacheese.

[dyslexicfaser]

The Tome of Necromancy (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129&page=1&pp=30) has a section on Turn/Rebuking, and K demonstrates how Rebuking can be used to good effect with the right gear and a feat or two. It's pretty pricey, and you pretty much have to go full cleric or dread necromancer, but the results can speak for themselves when your level 6 cleric can take over and command a HD 10 undead or better (not counting turn resistance and such). And since you only ever have to rebuke it once and it's yours forever... yeah, it can be useful.

But Fax is right when he says that the rules are horrible and clunky and make grapple checks seem reasonable.

[leperkhaun]

it depends.

In an undead heavy campaign it can be very powerfull and trivialise alot of encounters. Combined with extra turning and Disiple of the Sun (spend an extra turn attempt to destroy undead that would just be turned) it can take out stronger undead you normally wouldnt be able too.

However against undead immune to turning or against those with turn resistance it becomes rather weak since you will not be able to turn those unless you are higher level AND roll well.

[Idea Man]

It looks like when you go to turn, you need to have a sense of your enemy. A major encounter/boss fight is going to be at the upper limit of turning, while the cannon fodder is fair game, even the tougher undead.

It sounds like turning damage would be the better/more popular route. Don't remember which book it's in, though. :smalltongue:

[daggaz]

The party stands back to back, fighting off a horde of slowly ambling skeletons which have risen and ultimately surrounded them in the central chamber of the dungeon.

Elven Ranger: Grunthar, you're a cleric! Can't you turn these damned abominations??
Dwarven Cleric with 6 cha: Turn 'em? I AM turnin' 'em! *Swings his axe into the face of an encroaching skeleton, shattering the skull into dust*

See? Problem solved...

[dyslexicfaser]

"If by 'turn them', you mean 'stab them in the face with an axe', I'm way ahead of you."

[Pironious]

But how often are you facing Undead?

In my campaign, almost every encounter.

v.v; I should have realised in a group of 12 there might be a reason there was only 1 rogue, and they were ridiculously multiclassed on top of that.

[MaxMahem]

While turn undead can very from "meh" to very good, I most strongly agree with the statment that the rules for it are TERRIBLE. Just horrid. I mean D&D has some overcomplicated rules, and some stupid rules, but IMO the turning rules have GOT to be the worst of the whole bunch. They are certianly the worst set in the PHB, without a doubt. Two tables to reference, different sorts of die to roll, all kinds of weird modifiers. Blegh.

Turn Undead should force undead to make a simple fort or will save. If they fail by so much, they are destroyed/commanded. Also, whats up with undead having a a good will save? Most are mindless and should rarely if ever have to make a will save. Skeletons and zombies and such's good save should probably be fort. Incopreal undeads good save should probably be reflex, and intellegent undead should probably have will. Blegh, such a mess.

Of course another problem with undead is that they scale up HD/CR pretty fast, probably to make up for their lack of con. This makes there saves pretty good for their CR, and can make even a relatively simple monster (who you would expect to be turnable) immune. OTOH, intelligent undead who are usally lower on HD/CR are ironicly easier to turn, despite turn resistance.

[bugsysservant]

Even ignoring the torturous mechanics, turning undead is one of the poorer sections of 3.5 core. If left alone, it is a moderately usefull ability which will rapidly phase out in the face of HD and turn resistance. If you optimize your character, you will crush all undead instantly, but you are only really good against undead, and any DM will stop throwing them at you. It is possible, but difficult, to strike a balance between overwhelming power against a single enemy and pitifully weak ability at all levels above fifth, but again, its better jsut to use your turn attempts for better things, such as DMM.

[AtomicKitKat]

Definitely disagree with making Turn Undead a "Save or be destroyed". Just let it do "divine"(unsavable) damage based on your Cleric HD or whatever boosts effective turning level, and be done with it. If it manages to do more than half of your HP in turning damage(from a single turn attempt), you are destroyed/commanded.

[Awetugiw]

Turn undead is occasionally pretty strong, if you have the sun domain, and/or Disciple of the Sun.

I mean, really. Full cleric, with improved turning and Phylactry of Undead turning vs lich of CR cleric level +3. (That is: the lich has one more caster level than the cleric. Pretty decent BBEG CR, if there aren't too many minions around.)

Turn HD for lich: CR+5.
Turn levels of cleric: CR+5.
Cleric greater turns, has to get a 10 on a charisma check to instantly destroy the BBEG.

Same for vampire of CR cleric level +3, or ghost of CR cleric level +3. (Assuming class levels for the base creature. All three have +4 turn resistance, but also +2 CR). A lich, ghost or vampire of CR clerics level just doesn't stand a chance, even if the cleric didn't take improved turning. Try to get something like that with a save or die.

Dread wraith of CR clerics level. Cleric has to roll 10 on a charisma check to instantly destroy the dread wraith.

Turning works pretty well against many dangerous undead. Sure, turning zombies doesn't work very well. But then again, why bother turning zombies.

Of course DM's will take this into account, and somehow make their BBEG more turn-resistant. That however, is because the mechanic tends to make fights anticlimactic.

All in all: turn undead is occasionally very powerful, and fully useless everywhere else. As such, you'll probably want to use most of your turn attempts with divine feats or something. In the cases where turn undead does work, however, the DM will probably take specific countermeasures in order to make it not too powerful.

Turn undead is really that bad. Not because it's weak, but because it's either useless or too powerful, depending on the circumstances.

[bosssmiley]

Even Sean K. Reynolds thinks Turning Undead is Weird (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html) (link related and includes level appropriate 'likelihood of turning' figures for all SRD undead)