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View Full Version : Optimization Optimization Showcase in the Playground: Dahlver-Nah, Bro



Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 10:10 AM
INTRODUCTION
With more than a decade and a half of toying around with 3.5, I’ve accumulated a lot of spare builds and ideas. While I don’t have an active game going right now, I still like to pop open my builds folder and try to refine things. Recently I decided to make a dedicated effort to flesh out some of these builds into full write-ups, and reached out to some friends in the CO community who might be interested in doing the same. In the spirit of Tempest Stormwind’s Weekly Optimization Showcase (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right?), I thought I’d showcase the end results here.

The goal is (usually) not to show off any fancy new TO trick, but to showcase effective, playable builds and spur discussion. While each of us has a different build philosophy, in general the intent is to create something that can be played in most groups from level 1 to level 20. Again, the goal is discussion, so feel free to discuss the build, talk about other options, make suggestions or tear it all to shreds. Also, feel free to use anything showcased here in any of your campaigns—and let us know how they work out if you do!

Right now the group consists of myself, the Viscount, Akal Saris, Venger, WhamBamSam, Darrin and daremetoidareyou.. Typically one of us writes up the build concept and possibly a stub, the others share feedback on Discord or in some of the shared documents we have, and together we refine things until we’re happy with the final product.

For this showcase, we’re looking at another defensive build: Dahlver-Nah, Bro!


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/431937476010180610/764135450075070505/Dwarven_Defender.JPG.jpg

Dahlver-Nah, Bro
We don’t like to say the word “no” in this party, so instead let me say, “Dahlver-Nah, bro.”

BACKGROUND
Is there anything more iconic than the dwarven tank? Solid and stocky and nearly unmoveable, D&D has tried time and time again to turn the dwarf into the pinnacle of defense. It’s baked into 3.5 from the very beginning: the high Constitution, the stability bonuses, the special aptitude with heavy armor, the early prestige classes like dwarven defender.

Unfortunately, though, in practice it’s just not a particularly good fighting style. The dwarven defender in particular is laughable, able to be almost completely ignored by… moving 10’ or more in a round. The idea of tanking is difficult when there are almost no reliable ways to force foes to focus on you. Lockdown is still an effective way to play a melee brute, but it typically relies on attacks of opportunity and finding ways to impede tactical movement.

But for all that, dwarves still have a lot of fun options. Some of my favorite prestige classes, like the ironsoul forgemaster or the deepwarden or the runesmith, really play off of the idea of the super-bulky dwarf. This build came out of toying with that (actually, it was originally an ironsoul forgemaster build before we ended up abandoning incarnum altogether for other options): could we put together an iconic dwarven tank that still approached things in a fresh way?

THE BASICS

Race: DWARF. Accept no substitutes. You’ve got turn undead and some nice abilities powered by out, so I would recommend one of the dwarves that takes a penalty to Dex instead of Cha: the dream dwarf or gold dwarf are both excellent options. You can also go dragonborn if you want; the extra Con will most certainly be appreciated and it gets some nice extra racial features such as wings or a breath weapon. It’s not required, though, so feel free to stick with a more classic dwarf if that’s more your preference.
Build Stub: Binder 1/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Pious Templar 1/Deepwarden 2/Knight of the Raven 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator 8.
ACFs: Lion spiritual totem barbarian, of course. If you’re allowed to use a non-Wee Jas variant of RKV, then you have some other options to assist with flexibility. If you can take on a deity with an axe as a favored weapon, then the dwarven fighter ACF is actually a perfect fit here. Whirling frenzy over rage is also an option, but not a required one; see the build notes. Exotic shield proficiency over tower shield proficiency will also be nice to allow you to pick up an extreme shield (though you’ll want to switch back to a heavy shield once you get shield counter).
Alignment: Must be good and non-lawful. I like NG myself, but CG is an option too despite the devotion to Wee Jas.



Dahlver-Nah Bro




Level
Class
Feats
Class Features
Maneuvers Known
Notes (Click to Expand)


1st
Binder 1
Improved Binding


Binder may not seem like the obvious choice for a tank, but here it works fairly well. There are two vestiges in particular that you’ll be looking at. Eventually Dahlver-Nar will be your bread and butter, and I’ll spend some more time on that later, but at this level it’s only so-so. Instead, I recommend spending most days going with Savnok, which provides masterwork full plate at a level when it is well outside your WBL, along with a small amount of damage reduction and the ability to swap places with an ally. Combined with your impressive Constitution, these all add up to an impressive tank at this level.

The ally swap is a pretty cool class feature at any level, but once you can easily afford equivalent or better armor and the single point of DR stops being so impressive, you’ll instead want to switch to Dahlver-Nar. This one gives you a very nice natural armor bonus equal to half your Con, plus immunity to a few situational (but deadly) negative effects. It also gives you shield self, the ability to split your HP with another. This may seem counterintuitive for a tank, since your goal is to soak up HP damage in order to keep your allies alive, but there are definitely going to be situations where it’s worth it if it means you can focus more attacks onto yourself. (It’s also extra fantastic if you’ve got a summoner in the party.) And don’t worry, you’ll get some more use out of this particular ability down the road.



2nd
Barbarian 1

Spiritual totem (lion), whirling frenzy 1/day


Into yet another super tanky class, the barbarian. As should be no surprise to anyone, you’ll trade away fast movement for pounce via the lion spiritual totem. I waffled a lot between whirling frenzy and rage, since your Con focus means that traditional rage is actually quite valuable, but in the end I went with whirling frenzy here. The AC boost helps with your tankishness, and the ability to make multiple attacks gives you a way to benefit from pounce even at this level. It’s not a huge deal either way, as you only get it once a day, but it’s certainly the nicer option at these early levels.



3rd
Fighter 1
Constant Guardian, True Believer
Fighter bonus feat, exotic shield proficiency

Ah, yes, the curse of melee classes: more or less constant dipping. A couple of levels of fighter come online to do what a couple of levels of fighter always do: shore up feat requirements. Both of these feats are really here to fulfill pre-reqs, though Constant Guardian actually isn’t too bad all on its own, allowing you to take a penalty to your attack rolls to improve an ally’s AC.

Speaking of AC, fighters have the option to swap out their tower shield proficiency for an exotic shield. I highly recommend the extreme shield at these levels, which gives you an extra +1 to AC. It means you can’t use shield bash attacks, so when you hit level 18 and nab shield counter you’ll want to switch to a heavy shield, but until then it’s a straight upgrade.



4th
Fighter 2
Weapon Focus (dagger)
Fighter bonus feat


Pious templar is going to require you to have Weapon Focus in your deity’s favored weapon, and RKV means your deity is likely Wee Jas. Unfortunately for you, she prefers the lowly dagger, so it ends up being kind of a throwaway feat. See if you can work with your DM to find something more appropriate. Note that if you can allow some sort of axe to qualify instead, then the dwarven fighter ACF is actually the better option at level 3, as it gives you Weapon Focus in all axes, a better hit die and knowledge (dungeoneering) as a class skill.



5th
Crusader 1

Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5
Shield block, mountain hammer, douse the flames, foehammer, battle leader’s charge, martial spiritstance

Ah, here we go, we finally get to the good stuff. In an ideal world you’d take crusader at level 2 or level 3 to give you some more options early on, and that’s honestly not a bad move if you’re starting from first level, but delaying it here means you can pick up 2nd-level maneuvers right off the bat. That means nabbing battle leader’s charge to fully benefit from pounce even without Power Attack shenanigans, it means picking up the always excellent mountain hammer (and its little sister foehammer), and it means nabbing the underrated shield block. You want your enemies to focus on you, and granting an ally a +7 or better to their AC as an immediate action is a very nice way to negate attacks when they decide to ignore you and go after the squishies instead. Oh, and you get martial spirit to help recover some of the damage you’ll be soaking, plus a delayed damage pool and furious counterstrike. Amazing what one little level in crusader can get you.



6th
Crusader 2
Endurance
Indomitable soul
Iron guard’s glarestance
Another level in crusader sadly doesn’t grant you any extra maneuvers, but iron guard’s glare is an underrated stance that fits in well with your tanking and damage soaking abilities. And with Endurance, you’ve picked up your last pre-req feat - I promise that they’re all doing interesting things from here on out.



7th
Pious Templar 1

Mettle

Alright, pious templar probably seems like an odd choice. After all, it cost you a pair of throwaway feats, and all it gives in return is some mediocre casting and mettle. But don’t fret! Pious templar is a bit underrated in my book, mainly because it doesn’t just give you any casting, it gives you paladin casting. The paladin spell list is surprisingly decent, with some underleveled spells and a ton of splat support. It also means you can benefit from the absolutely fantastic Battle Blessing, which does NOT require levels in paladin to take. Plus, you know, mettle! Mettle is cool, right?

As for what spells you should be focusing on, it’s hard to go wrong with rhino’s rush for double damage on a charge; combined with battle leader’s charge and pounce, this can turn into a pretty decent killshot despite your lack of Power Attack. You also get some really cool underleveled options as well, such as lesser restoration.



8th
Deepwarden
TrackB
Track, trap sense +1

A quick hop into Deepwarden, the dwarven ranger PrC that any Con-enthusiast absolutely loves. The first level isn’t that exciting, but I suppose a bonus to saves and AC against traps isn’t the worst.



9th
Deepwarden 2
Dutiful Guardian
Stone warden

Ah, here’s where the money is. Stone warden gives you Con to AC, replacing Dex (meaning you also wave bye-bye to any Dex penalty you were previously eating). Considering that your Constitution is likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 26 at this point, that’s a sizable bonus. It also stacks with the natural armor bonus you get from Dahlver-Nar, giving you a lovely +12 AC bonus overall.

Now, how do you get enemies to focus on you, with all that meaty HP and AC, instead of your allies? You have a few nice tricks up your sleeve, such as iron guard’s glare and shield block, but why not go even further? That’s where Dutiful Guardian comes in. This feat lets you spend an immediate action to swap places with your Constant Guardian target in response to an attack, letting you physically place your body between the rest of your party and harm’s way. It’s a very neat feat that I haven’t seen get much use, and a great way to actively force foes to deal with you and not your squishies.



10th
Knight of the Raven 1

Raven harrier (harry), speak with ravens

I absolutely LOVE the knight of the raven, and it has come up a couple of times before. Here you’re going to actually get more use out of the raven familiar than most. This celestial raven has half your hit point total… and half your hit point total is a lot of hit points. That makes it a perfect target for your Dahlver-Nar shield self ability, especially since you suffer no ill effects if the raven meets an untimely end, and automatically get a new raven every day at dawn. Together, this essentially gives you a 50% boost to your HP - not too shabby!



11th
Knight of the Raven 2

Smite undead 1/day

Without a focus on Charisma, smite undead isn’t going to do much for you, but progressing your pious templar casting means you nab a 2nd-level spell. There are a few nice options, but one in particular that deserves some attention is shield other. It has a duration sufficient to last you a few fights even with your low CL, and gives you yet another way to suck up damage that was meant for your allies.


12th
Knight of the Raven 3
Battle Blessing
Turn undead, Sun domain, raven harrier (baffle)

Whew, a lot of fun things at this level. While traditional undead turning isn’t going to be all that useful for you with your mediocre Charisma and low effective turning level, there are a lot of fun things that it can power, and most importantly of all it qualifies you for ruby knight vindicator. You also pick up Battle Blessing. Note that this feat does not require you to be a paladin, merely to be able to cast paladin spells (which pious templars do). This lets you cast most paladin spells as a swift action, making your casting considerably more flexible.


13th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 1


Thicket of bladesstance
I’m not sure how often RKV has come up in these showcases, but it’s definitely a lot. The PrC is just that good, giving full BAB, full initiating with a good list of disciplines and 8/10 casting, plus a ton of useful and flavorful abilities. Go ahead and start by nabbing a stance, letting you pick up the always-useful thicket of blades. Though you aren’t built as an AoO tank, it’s still a very handy tool for any build that wants to force enemies to focus on itself.


14th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 2

Divine recovery
Shadow stride
I love crusaders but hate their recovery mechanic, which leaves so much up to chance. Divine recovery fixes all that, letting you burn your turn attempts to automatically refresh an expended maneuver. And since you get access to shadow hand maneuvers via RKV, go ahead and nab shadow stride for some move action tactical teleportation. While there are other decent options (radiant charge can be quite nice), this is just a really solid bit of utility that I think is worth adding, and I actually prefer it over the higher level shadow blink because it doesn’t eat up your swift/immediate (which is in high demand).


15th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 3
Steadfast Determination


While your Wisdom is not terrible, it’s going to be quite a bit lower than your Constitution, so Steadfast Determination should effectively give you a +8 or more to what is probably your most important saving throw. You also get 3rd-level spells, handy for things like righteous fury or mass resurgence.


16th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 4


War leader’s charge
War leader’s charge is a very nice upgrade to battle leader’s charge, allowing you to avoid AoOs and stack on an extra +35 damage to the attacks you make at the end of the charge. Combined with pounce and rhino’s rush and/or a valorous weapon, it’s quite capable of knocking out a level-appropriate foe in a single attack.


17th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 5

Armored stealth

Well, stealth is not and will never be your forte, even if you can ignore the massive ACP you’ll be eating from your armor. Sorry. If you nabbed a periapt to get yourself up to 18 Wisdom, however, you’ll make up for it with your first 4th-level spell. Paladins have a lot of very good ones. On the defensive side of things, restoration, death ward, break enchantment and favored of the martyr are all quite nice. Blood of the martyr lets you quite literally transfer your HP to someone else, which is very much on theme for you, while glory of the martyr is basically a mass shield other. Offensively, holy sword is actually not half-bad when you can cast it as a swift action, and revenance is a great way to keep your allies swinging even after they go down.


18th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 6
Extra Turning

Shield counter, aura of triumphstance
Since your turning is limited by your average Charisma, Extra Turning will make sure you can get full use out of your RKV class features without stacking nightsticks. As for your maneuver and stance, shield counter is easily my favorite ToB counter. While most require you to oppose the attack roll of your foe, shield counter instead just requires you to successfully hit your opponent with a shield bash. Not only does this generate an off-turn attack (always handy), but it’s also significantly more reliable: even with the attack penalty, the majority of dangerous melee foes have a significantly higher attack bonus than AC. Meanwhile aura of triumph is a much improved version of martial spirit that heals both you and an ally simultaneously - meaning it serves double duty when combined with your shield self ability and your celestial raven.


19th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 7

Divine impetus

You have a lot of competition for swift/immediate actions between Dutiful Guardian, Battle Blessing, divine recovery and shield block/counter. Enter divine impetus, which allows you to gain additional swift actions in a round, perfect for when your swift was consumed by an immediate action to keep yourself or your ally out of harm’s way since your last round.


20th
Ruby Knight Vindicator 8


Greater divine surge

And we close with one of my favorite killshots in ToB. Greater divine surge is absolutely brutal if you’ve got the Constitution to devote to it, giving you a sizable boost to attack and damage for every point you sink into it. Depending on point buy and whether or not you took dragonborn, your Con should be between 34 and 38 by now, giving you a lot of points to dump into this when you need to do some serious damage. With restoration to heal it all off after, this is a powerful way to close out a fight, allowing you to convert your health directly into damage.





Crusader Maneuvers/Stances
1- Douse the flames, martial spiritstance, iron guard’s glarestance
2- Shield block, mountain hammer, foehammer, battle leader’s charge
3- Thicket of bladesstance
5- Shadow stride
6- War leader’s charge, aura of triumphstance
7- Shield counter
8- Greater divine surge



Constitution, Constitution, Constitution. If you’re using point buy then I wouldn’t start lower than a 16 here, and going up to 18 is certainly reasonable. You’ll eventually need a Wisdom of at least 14 to cast your spells, though that’s not necessary until late enough in the game that you can hit that particular requirement with items. You’ll also need at least a 12 in Int to hit all your skill requirements. Dex, however, is a dump stat, and Charisma really doesn’t need to be higher than 10 (and can even be lower if you have ready access to items like nightsticks to fuel divine recovery and divine impetus).

SAMPLE STAT ARRAYS (before racial adjustments):
Str 14 / Dex 10 / Con 16 / Int 12 / Wis 12 / Cha 10
Str 14 / Dex 8 / Con 18 / Int 12 / Wis 12 / Cha 10



Skills are tight in the early levels, and unless you’re playing with a high enough point buy to dedicate even more points to Int, your early levels will pretty much all be devoted to hitting pre-reqs. Deepwarden is the culprit: 5 ranks each in climb, heal, jump, knowledge (dungeoneering) and survival. With a 12+ Int you should just barely be able to eke it all out in time, but it’ll be tight.



You’re a dwarven tank, so look like one: coat yourself in stone and metal, grab a shield (I recommend going with the extreme shield until you pick up shield counter at level 18) and pick up a nice one-handed weapon like a dwarven waraxe. Before your raven familiar comes online (and even after), anything that gives you allies that can help you soak damage via Dahlver-Nar’s shield self ability will also be nice, even the lowly bag of tricks. More turn attempts will be huge for fueling divine recovery and divine impetus, so nab a reliquary holy symbol and some nightsticks if you can. Beyond that, though, equip yourself like your typical melee tank with a special focus on Constitution and endurance.



BUILD SUMMARY
Defensively, you’re the epitome of the tank: scores of hit points, heavy armor and shield and getting 1.5x your Constitution score to AC. By level 20, this can be as much as a +21 bonus, and combined with your armor and shield and other level-appropriate items, you can expect to have an AC in the high 40s or low 50s. To put things into perspective, a balor’s highest attack roll is +31, meaning there’s a good chance it’ll need a natural 20 to hit you. And in the rare instance where something is able to pierce your defenses, you’ve got shield counter to bash away their hopes and dreams. You also share damage with your celestial raven, who has half of your hit points and who is automatically re-summoned at no penalty at dawn each day, which essentially boosts your HP by +50%. Oh, and you add that ridiculous Constitution score to your Will saves as well, meaning you’re no easy target for enchanters either. Plus you’ve got mettle and immunity to various conditions like insanity and confusion.

Beyond that, you’ve got +19 BAB, pounce and 8th-level maneuvers, including some high damage options like war leader’s charge (combined with pounce and rhino’s rush, this is absolutely deadly, adding +70 damage to every attack at the end of a charge) and greater divine surge. With your Con focus you can dump a full 15 points into the ability and still have plenty of Con to spare, and you even have access to restoration to heal off the damage when the fight is done. You also cast 4th-level paladin spells as a swift action thanks to Battle Blessing, and you have divine recovery and divine impetus to help make sure you can always get off the maneuver or spell you need.

As far as tanking goes, you’ve got some unique ways to help the squishies. You have a few staples like iron guard’s glare and thicket of blades, as well as Constant Guardian and shield block to give them a sizable boost to AC when necessary. You also have access to shield other and blood of the martyr to make sure that some of their damage goes to you instead. And when all else fails, nothing stops attacks better than physically interposing your body between your ally and an enemy’s blade: with Dutiful Guardian, you can as an immediate action swap places with an ally that is within 10’, completely foiling an attack and forcing enemies to focus on you.

VARIANTS
One fun option here is to focus more heavily on the shield aspect, looking at feats like Shield Slam and Shield Charge. Shield Charge alongside pounce and a slightly higher focus on Strength can be really nice, and you can play Captain America and just two-hand your shield instead of using a traditional weapon. The feats are a bit tight, but it’s doable, especially if flaws are on the table.

For more substantial changes, the build originally focused on incarnum rather than initiating, with ironsoul forgemaster for some excellent defensive bonuses. We have a few versions of this, my favorite of which involved a dragonborn dwarven ranger 3/totemist 2/crusader 2/binder 1/deepwarden 2/ironsoul forgemaster 10 that used the dragon tail soulmeld to qualify for Tail Sweep Knockdown for some Con-focused area trips early game and picked up Prehensile Tail to hold a shield while keeping both hands free.

SOURCES

Binder, Savnok, Dahlver-Nar, Improved Binding: Tome of Magic
Crusader, ruby knight vindicator, maneuvers/stances: Tome of Battle
Spiritual totem barbarian ACF: Complete Champion
Constant Guardian, Dutiful Guardian: Drow of the Underdark
Knight of the Raven: Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Deepwarden, exotic shield proficiency ACF: Races of Stone
Pious Templar: Complete Divine
Whirling frenzy barbarian ACF: Unearthed Arcana/SRD


***

And that’s that! Please let us know what you think in the comments, and what you’d like to see for future showcases!

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 10:11 AM
Click here for a list of all prior showcases! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24372982&postcount=2)

Doctor Despair
2020-10-09, 10:54 AM
[B]The idea of tanking is difficult when there are almost no reliable ways to force foes to focus on you. Lockdown is still an effective way to play a melee brute, but it typically relies on attacks of opportunity and finding ways to impede tactical movement.

...

And that’s that! Please let us know what you think in the comments, and what you’d like to see for future showcases!

I like the gist of the build, but I did want to make a note here: did you consider Knight for Test of Mettle, or "Master of Mockery"? Those are, to my knowledge, the best ways to force enemy aggro on you, followed by the incredibly awful "Goad" feat.

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 11:10 AM
Knight is a lot of fun, and I love test of mettle, but it’s kind of a pain to build around. Without a significant investment in knight levels and a good Charisma, the DC is going to be really disappointingly low. I do think knight is an underrated class that gets a lot of undeserved flack though.

Mastery of Mockery is something I wasn’t familiar with (I don’t know a lot of the Dragon Mag content), but it looks like it gets around that issue by making the DC based on your perform check. That’s pretty nice, and could definitely be worth building around. Actually it reminds me a lot of the key ability of one of my favorite classes, the divine prankster from Races of Stone. Their enrage enemies ability they get at level 5 similarly allows you to make a perform (comedy) check to force foes to engage with you. (It also has one of my favorite descriptive elements, saying that a creature that can’t attack or approach you “stands in place, screaming in futile anger.”) We actually have a fun little divine prankster build on our “completed but not written up” pile, so you may end up seeing something with that down the road.

NontheistCleric
2020-10-09, 11:13 AM
I'm sorry, but I just can't ignore it: You've misspelled 'Dahlver' as 'Dhalver'.

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 11:19 AM
I'm sorry, but I just can't ignore it: You've misspelled 'Dahlver' as 'Dhalver'.

...oh gods you’re right. Time for lots of editing! Blame it on the fact that I mostly do these writeups during slow periods at work, running most of it from memory rather than actual books. Will fix now.

Doctor Despair
2020-10-09, 11:21 AM
...oh gods you’re right. Time for lots of editing! Blame it on the fact that I mostly do these writeups during slow periods at work, running most of it from memory rather than actual books. Will fix now.

Excuses, excuses! You can expect to hear about this in your quarterly performance review, Mr Knowles.

rrwoods
2020-10-09, 12:51 PM
This is a sweet build (as usual)!

You mention Dragonborn a time or three here. If this character undergoes the ritual, what factors are under consideration when choosing an aspect?

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 01:34 PM
This is a sweet build (as usual)!

You mention Dragonborn a time or three here. If this character undergoes the ritual, what factors are under consideration when choosing an aspect?

I always feel like you rarely go wrong with wings aspect, since flight is something all melee brutes really need unless they want to find themselves useless against a not-insignificant number of foes. There are magic items that can cover flight for you, but they tend to be a bit on the pricey side, especially when compared to the relatively cheap blindfold of true darkness that covers most of what you’d get from mind aspect.

Heart aspect is also neat, and actually an early version of this build used heart aspect plus Entangling Exhalation as an early movement debuff. If you happen to be playing with flaws or can otherwise shuffle things around to add that back in, it’s a decent option. However, if you don’t have the feat to spend on Entangling Exhalation, you’ll probably still prefer wings aspect.

Doctor Despair
2020-10-09, 01:50 PM
I always feel like you rarely go wrong with wings aspect, since flight is something all melee brutes really need unless they want to find themselves useless against a not-insignificant number of foes. There are magic items that can cover flight for you, but they tend to be a bit on the pricey side, especially when compared to the relatively cheap blindfold of true darkness that covers most of what you’d get from mind aspect.


Were the wing grafts that expensive?

Setting that aside, assuming you are either allowed to pick (or just roll lucky on the percentiles), there's always Unseeley Fey, providing you don't need to be non-Fey for a later feat, prestige, or acquired template

Efrate
2020-10-09, 02:05 PM
I feel that there is something with knight, knight of the sacred seal and maybe like jester that can focus on the hit me part of this and stack cha stuff.

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-09, 02:13 PM
Were the wing grafts that expensive?

Setting that aside, assuming you are either allowed to pick (or just roll lucky on the percentiles), there's always Unseeley Fey, providing you don't need to be non-Fey for a later feat, prestige, or acquired template

The feathered wings graft doesn’t play nicely with Good characters, unfortunately. The best bet cost-wise is probably the winged mask, which gives you fly at will for 13k, but you’ll likely need to spend the action to activate it when you want to use it in combat. If you want all day flight with no required activation on a Good character, things get a good bit pricier.

Basically though it’s just a question of what’s going to fit better. Both mind and wings aspect give you things that are easily duplicated via items, so it’s a question of what items you think will be more readily available and what will be more valuable in any given campaign. The breath weapon of heart aspect is a little harder to easily duplicate via items, but the damage is pretty piddly, so without Entangling Exhalation or some other metabreath rider it’s probably not going to be worth it.

Sian
2020-10-09, 03:12 PM
while it might well be a bit clunky, I'd consider leaning even more into tanking part of making sure your opponent can't focus on your 'clothies' behind, by somehow grabbing breath weapon (Dragonfire Adapt for Sickening/Slow Breath as alternates?) and pair it with Entangling Exhalation

Still ... reminds me of a somewhat refined variant of my Knight-less Knight (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18186416&postcount=48) from back in Zinc Saucier

Nihilarian
2020-10-09, 10:33 PM
Paladin is clearly the better choice in almost any situation (because better support) but i think it's pretty interesting that Pious Templar can nab Blackguard casting too. And in either case, with pretty relaxed alignment needs too.

ixrisor
2020-10-10, 06:09 AM
Is deepwarden’s con replaces dex to ac limited by heavy armour?

Venger
2020-10-10, 06:50 AM
No, it is not.

rrwoods
2020-10-19, 11:40 PM
Thinking about running this build if I get into another game. I was looking up the details of Binder and vestiges (I've never really looked through Tome of Magic at all before now), and TBH I think one of the most fun role-play aspects at early levels is the fact that you will fail most of your binding checks :P

StreamOfTheSky
2020-10-25, 02:43 PM
I like the gist of the build, but I did want to make a note here: did you consider Knight for Test of Mettle, or "Master of Mockery"? Those are, to my knowledge, the best ways to force enemy aggro on you, followed by the incredibly awful "Goad" feat.

The best aggro ability I've seen, as far as "no loopholes for you!" is the Mindless Rage spell from Spell Compendium.


The target must be able to see you when you cast this spell. If the subject later loses line of sight to you, the spell immediately ends. (A subject can't voluntarily break line of sight with you, such as by closing its eyes, to end this spell prematurely.)

If the subject doesn't threaten you at the start of its turn, it must move toward you (taking nothing but move actions) and end its movement as close to you as possible. If it gets close enough with a single move action to threaten you, it stops and makes a melee attack against you as normal.

While under the effect of a mindless rage spell, the subject can make use of all its normal melee combat skills, abilities, and feats—either offensive or defensive. However, the subject can't make ranged attacks, cast spells, or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger, or spell completion to function. The subject can't make any attack against a creature other than you.

(snip)

Only a 2nd level (Bard, Sorc/Wiz) spell, Medium range, and forces even the squishy wizard to try and run into melee with you w/ no other recourse.
Obviously, being a 2nd level enchantment (mind affecting) spell means low save DCs and dealing w/ immunities. But other than that....amazing. if only there was a way to make it into a Su ability w/ the auto-scaled save DC progression....

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-25, 03:50 PM
I mentioned this briefly, but if you're looking for a really potent aggro style ability, check out the level 5 ability of the divine prankster:



Enrage Enemies (Su): A divine prankster of 5th level or higher with 13 or more ranks in Perform (comedy) can use his comedic talents to enrage one or more creatures. Each creature to be enraged must be within 90 feet, able to see or hear the divine prankster, and able to pay attention to him. The divine prankster must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers does not prevent the ability from working, but grants the creature a +4 bonus on its Will save to resist the effect. A divine prankster can target one creature per three class levels with this ability. To use the ability, a divine prankster makes a Perform (comedy) check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature's Will save against the ability. If a creature's saving throw succeeds, the divine prankster cannot attempt to enrage that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature focuses its attention on the divine prankster, making melee attacks against him each round (or closing with the divine prankster if melee attacks are not yet possible). If the creature can't attack or approach the divine prankster, it stands in place, screaming in futile anger. An enraged foe gains a +2 morale bonus on its attack rolls and damage rolls against the divine prankster, but takes a —4 penalty to its AC while enraged. The effect lasts as long as the divine prankster continues to perform and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per divine prankster level). If the creature is attacked or injured by the divine prankster or his allies, the effect ends (for that creature only). Alternatively, an ally of the affected creature can spend a standard action to attempt to break it free of its rage; doing this grants the creature a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Enrage enemies is an enchantment (charm), mind-affecting ability.

(Emphasis mine.)

Hits multiple foes, and unlike most other abilities, the save DC is actually based on your perform check, which can easily be optimized to significantly outstrip even the highest of saves. Still mind-affecting, unfortunately, but otherwise very strong. Divine prankster itself is a pretty good prestige class, with 10/10 divine casting progression and 6 skill points/level, plus some other nice abilities, though the skill requirements make it difficult for most clerics to easily qualify (though not impossible - we actually have a build written up that qualifies on time, which you might expect to see in the semi near future!).

Tiktakkat
2020-10-27, 03:04 PM
Alignment: Must be good and non-lawful. I like NG myself, but CG is an option too despite the devotion to Wee Jas.

That is not compatible with the requirements of the True Believer feat for Wee Jas.
It will make it impossible to meet all the other alignment requirements:
One step of Lawful Neutral (True Believer of Wee Jas for Pious Templar)
Non-Lawful (Barbarian)
Non-(True) Neutral (Crusader)
Good (Knight of the Raven)

Piggy Knowles
2020-10-27, 05:17 PM
Whoops, somehow managed to miss that one when we working on the build. In that case, there are two main options. The simplest is just an alignment adjustment from NG to LG - you'll lose the ability to rage, but retain any other class features (most notably pounce). The second would be to replace the barbarian level with a similarly beefy class. Warblade is probably your best bet, and even gets pseudo-pounce via sudden leap.

rrwoods
2020-10-27, 05:19 PM
That is not compatible with the requirements of the True Believer feat for Wee Jas.
It will make it impossible to meet all the other alignment requirements:
One step of Lawful Neutral (True Believer of Wee Jas for Pious Templar)
Non-Lawful (Barbarian)
Non-(True) Neutral (Crusader)
Good (Knight of the Raven)

Kind of a bummer, but workable still, I think. I'd move True Believer to level 6 to facilitate this. Constant Guardian and Weapon Focus are the only feats eligible for the fighter bonus feat selection, so we have to swap the two non-fighter-bonus feats to make it work.

1 Binder - Improved Binding
2 Barbarian -
3 Fighter - Constant Guardian, Endurance
4 Fighter - Weapon Focus
5 Crusader -
6 Crusader - True Believer
7 ...

Start as NG. At some point during levels 2-5, shift alignment to LG, losing whirling frenzy (or rage). Not the worst loss considering your focus is on defense, not offense.


EDIT:

Whoops, somehow managed to miss that one when we working on the build. In that case, there are two main options. The simplest is just an alignment adjustment from NG to LG - you'll lose the ability to rage, but retain any other class features (most notably pounce). The second would be to replace the barbarian level with a similarly beefy class. Warblade is probably your best bet, and even gets pseudo-pounce via sudden leap.
I don't think I'd recommend sudden leap on a character whose base speed is 20 ft, since you start the game with -6 to Jump. (edit: and full plate and an extreme shield, for another -12...)

Aegis013
2020-10-28, 08:23 PM
This is a really cool build. I've really enjoyed the Dahlver-Nar Shield Self ability ever since a very creative player playing a Crusader//Binder gestalt in one of my games years ago used it in an encounter with a Drider. She had lured the party to the back of her lair where her web was set up making it hard to attack her even at range and impractical for the party to get into melee with the resources they had.

He successfully affected the Drider with Shield Self, then the party hid behind cover and then he cut himself with his weapon until the Drider was dead with his high HD and Con, Steeley Resolve and Martial Spirit.

Edgiest kill I've ever had in a game.