Can I abuse it like this?

[SangoProduction]

For the next minute, the target ignores any miss chance due to concealment.

Specifically from concealment. Clearly, things like Mirror Image aren't affected.

But since Mirror Image relies on sight, can someone benefiting from the quoted effect just close their eyes during the attack, ignore the miss chance due to total concealment, and then open their eyes after the attacks are done? All to ignore the chance to hit mirror images.

If so, are there any other non-concealment, but sight-based miss chances out there?

[Segev]

Specifically from concealment. Clearly, things like Mirror Image aren't affected.

But since Mirror Image relies on sight, can someone benefiting from the quoted effect just close their eyes during the attack, ignore the miss chance due to total concealment, and then open their eyes after the attacks are done? All to ignore the chance to hit mirror images.

If so, are there any other non-concealment, but sight-based miss chances out there?

Given that attacks are abstractions of a more complex interplay of attack, parry, counterattack, etc. that's happening on the fiction layer, I would argue that you can't close your eyes "during the attack" and then open them "for the rest of the round," because nobody - not even the highest-level fighter-type - can predict which of his thrusts, swings, or other gambits will be "the attack that counts" for one of his actually-rolled attacks. Thus, for these purposes, I would rule similar to how beholders can choose whether their central eye is open or closed: they can choose at the start of their turn each round whether their eyes are open or closed for the whole round.

What this looks like on the fiction layer is that somebody who is trying to close his eyes only when he swings to attack is either not really closing his eyes when decisions are made (so sight-based fooling applies), or he's got his eyes closed more than open (so he's effectively got them closed the whole round).

[Drelua]

Most of the people I've gamed with allow this, you can effectively blind yourself for the duration of your turn. There's rules for what happens if you can't see, so I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to choose not to see. You'd still take the AC penalties if anyone attacks during your turn, say with an AoO or a readied action, so it certainly has its downsides but sometimes it's a good idea.

I don't really see a problem with this, since it's an in character thing that makes sense. I've seen tonnes of media where the master teaches the student not to rely on your eyes, since they can deceive you, like Obi-wan does in A New Hope. Ruling against this would be to say "no, you can't choose not to see when there's an illusion," which would be pretty immersion breaking to me. If I'm less likely to hit when I can see than I would be if I was blind, I can choose to close my eyes. As long as you're not trying to argue your way out of taking penalties on everything else during your attack, it sounds fair to me.

[Kurald Galain]

Ruling against this would be to say "no, you can't choose not to see when there's an illusion,"
No, ruling against this would be to say "you can't close your eyes with such granularity that you get all the benefits of seeing without all the drawbacks of seeing".

Funnily, this only seems to come up when players are up against either a Mirror Image spell or some kind of gaze attack (e.g. a Medusa). Yes, by selectively opening and closing your eyes at the exactly right moment you can effectively negate both of these. No, that doesn't make a lot of sense, nor should the GM feel obliged to comply.

[frogglesmash]

Mirror Image specifically says that the duplicates are indistinguishable by both sight and sound, so unless you've got a killer sense of smell, no amount of clever eye closing will work.

[Crake]

But since Mirror Image relies on sight, can someone benefiting from the quoted effect just close their eyes during the attack, ignore the miss chance due to total concealment.

Yes.


and then open their eyes after the attacks are done?

No.

According to the rules regarding gaze attacks, being sighted or not is a decision that you decide for the round. You can't simply open and close your eyes in between attacks.

[Drelua]

Yes.

No.

According to the rules regarding gaze attacks, being sighted or not is a decision that you decide for the round. You can't simply open and close your eyes in between attacks.

Exactly. I'm not saying you can open and close your eyes between every attack, just that you can close your eyes for the round and just attack the square they're in. This isn't dependent on sight or sound, just using the rules for attacking a square as you would if you suspected an invisible opponent was in that space. You're still treated as blind for the round. So, as an example of the downsides, a rogue could see you doing this, and choose to ready an attack for when you close your eyes, attacking your flat-footed AC with the penalties for being blind and getting to do sneak attack damage. Or your target could ready to five foot step when you do that, so you'd have to roll perception to know that your target moved. You still have a 50% miss chance, and you're not getting rid of images as you would with that miss chance, so it's not perfect but it is sometimes a good option.

That's how I've always seen it ruled anyway, in home games and local PFS.

[Segev]

Exactly. I'm not saying you can open and close your eyes between every attack, just that you can close your eyes for the round and just attack the square they're in. This isn't dependent on sight or sound, just using the rules for attacking a square as you would if you suspected an invisible opponent was in that space. You're still treated as blind for the round. So, as an example of the downsides, a rogue could see you doing this, and choose to ready an attack for when you close your eyes, attacking your flat-footed AC with the penalties for being blind and getting to do sneak attack damage. Or your target could ready to five foot step when you do that, so you'd have to roll perception to know that your target moved. You still have a 50% miss chance, and you're not getting rid of images as you would with that miss chance, so it's not perfect but it is sometimes a good option.

That's how I've always seen it ruled anyway, in home games and local PFS.

The way I'm looking at it, there's no need to ready an action. Just attack him after his turn. He doesn't get to re-open his eyes until his next turn.

The reasoning is that his turn isn't really a granular thing that he's only doing stuff, then waiting for 19 ticks of doing nothing. His turn just happens to be the moment when the one attack of many he's trying out over the course of the round matters. So, if he closes his eyes then opens them, he's not really got his eyes closed during the crucial attack, because he doens't know which one it'll be. And blinking rapidly doesn't "reveal" the real one.

If he closes his eyes to fight, he's got to have them closed for an entire round. Or closing his eyes isn't effective.

[SangoProduction]

Mirror Image specifically says that the duplicates are indistinguishable by both sight and sound, so unless you've got a killer sense of smell, no amount of clever eye closing will work.


An attacker must be able to see the figments to be fooled. If you are invisible or the attacker is blind, the spell has no effect (although the normal miss chances still apply).

I rest my case there.

[Kurald Galain]

According to the rules regarding gaze attacks, being sighted or not is a decision that you decide for the round. You can't simply open and close your eyes in between attacks.

And so do we.

No, you don't get to simultaneously claim all the benefits from seeing and all the benefits from not seeing. Obviously.

[Drelua]

The way I'm looking at it, there's no need to ready an action. Just attack him after his turn. He doesn't get to re-open his eyes until his next turn.

The reasoning is that his turn isn't really a granular thing that he's only doing stuff, then waiting for 19 ticks of doing nothing. His turn just happens to be the moment when the one attack of many he's trying out over the course of the round matters. So, if he closes his eyes then opens them, he's not really got his eyes closed during the crucial attack, because he doens't know which one it'll be. And blinking rapidly doesn't "reveal" the real one.

If he closes his eyes to fight, he's got to have them closed for an entire round. Or closing his eyes isn't effective.

Yeah that makes sense, not how I've seen it ruled but I might go with that in the future. Also, fwiw, here's a developer comment for Pathfinder (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kca8?Scent-and-Mirror-Image#36). If you're playing PFS, that basically makes it a rule. SKR says it should be a move action to close your eyes, which makes no sense to me but whatever. Something about retuning your senses? Which you wouldn't have to do if someone cast blindness on you.