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Fiery Justice
2007-11-02, 03:10 PM
Two questions, one of them mechanical and one moral (kinda):
1. "If a celestial lycanthrope spreads their lycanthropy, would celestialness be carried over?
2. If your a celestial lycanthrope that could make the whole world say, Neutral Good, would it be moral to spread said plague?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 03:13 PM
Two questions, one of them mechanical and one moral (kinda):
1. If your a celestial lycanthrope and you spread your lycanthropy, does it work?
2. If your a celestial lycanthrope that could make the whole world say, Neutral Good, would it be moral to spread said plague?

1. Why wouldn't spreading lycanthrope not work if you're a celestial?
2. By definition, I would say no, it is perfectly moral, because you're spread good around and literally making the world good.

Fiery Justice
2007-11-02, 03:18 PM
Okay allow me to rephrase the first question,
"If a celestial lycanthrope spreads their lycanthropy, would celestialness be carried over?"

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-02, 03:19 PM
I think I get the reason. Lycans are CE because of the traff. But half celestial forces you to be good, and we don't know which would override who. I'd say the lycanthropy overrides the requirement of being good, for the reason of it going later.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-02, 03:23 PM
1. "If a celestial lycanthrope spreads their lycanthropy, would celestialness be carried over?
No, on grounds of that not making sense.



2. If your a celestial lycanthrope that could make the whole world say, Neutral Good, would it be moral to spread said plague?
No, because you're disallowing people their free will.

Nermy
2007-11-02, 03:23 PM
1. Yes, you can transmit lycanthropy. No, you can't transmit the celestial template as it is not a disease.

2. First of all, even if you were a werebear (only good were-creature in the SRD), according to the Common Lycanthropes table in the SRD, Lawful Good is only the "preferred" alignment of werebears. Of course this contradicts the "Always Lawful Good" in the creature entry, but 99% of players and DMs agree that rule is stupid anyway. So RAW is contradictory.

Even if you could somehow transmit alignment, it would be an evil act because you're forcing a person to change who they are against their will; and don't get me started on just how far you'd fall if you were using exalted rules. Not to mention you're intentionally spreading a disease, which is downright dastardly any way you slice it.

The preferred "good" method of changing someone's alignment is to make them want to change themselves. If you simply force people to change, I would say that's a purely evil act (at best I could be argued down to neutral), even if you have good intentions, but as always, most moral quandries such as this are in the hands of the DM to decide.

F.L.
2007-11-02, 03:37 PM
No, on grounds of that not making sense.


No, because you're disallowing people their free will.

If it's evil to shut down people's free will, does that make the Emissary of Barachiel PrC from BOED inherently evil? It's main power is to just push people to LG alignment.

Fiery Justice
2007-11-02, 03:47 PM
But isn't it a good action I mean, look at the consequences (and intentions, while we are at it):
1. Everyone is stronger and therefore safer from any external non-infected dangers (IE Demons, Devils, Aberrations or any other unpleasant people)
1a. None of the infected would harm a infected or uninfected without cause (cause would dictate that a bite or two would be cool)
2. Everyone is now good, and the world is much better for it.
3. You can redeem people by smacking them, which is incredibly useful and saves them from the clutches of Hell, which even most of the evilest want avoid (plus, Elysium is one kickass place to be once you die, even when not comparing it to anything else)
4. The unfortunate loss of a bit of freewill if they fail their will saves (if they change voluntarily, thats their fault.)

Even from the standpoint of a greedy monster hungry for power, it still works wonders.

UserClone
2007-11-02, 03:48 PM
Ah yes, the old sanctify the wicked conundrum; it's been done.:smallwink:

Fiery Justice
2007-11-02, 03:49 PM
No, Sanctify the Wicked takes much longer and is far more miserable to the sufferer.

tainsouvra
2007-11-02, 03:54 PM
Quirk of the D&D alignment system: isn't upholding free will a Chaotic trait, not a Good trait? Likewise, squashing it would be Lawful, not Evil?

Captain van der Decken
2007-11-02, 03:58 PM
A year in solitary confinement (come to think of it, that's gotta be pretty detrimental to your mental health) or having your species forcibly changed. Hmm.

Fiery Justice
2007-11-02, 04:03 PM
Lycanthropy is a race, not a species (your free to do it with some lovely women of the other race and still get off spring)

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 04:05 PM
Quirk of the D&D alignment system: isn't upholding free will a Chaotic trait, not a Good trait? Likewise, squashing it would be Lawful, not Evil?

Upholding free will is a Chaotic Good trait. Tyrannizing it would be Lawful Evil.

Captain van der Decken
2007-11-02, 04:13 PM
Lycanthropy is a race, not a species (your free to do it with some lovely women of the other race and still get off spring)

Most of the time.

tainsouvra
2007-11-02, 04:19 PM
Upholding free will is a Chaotic Good trait. Tyrannizing it would be Lawful Evil. But that's mixing references without really getting into the alignment discussion. At its core, Chaos is about "freedom, adaptability, flexibility... recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility" while Law is about "honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability ... close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability".

When it comes down to it, free will sounds much more like a law/chaos question than a good/evil one. If free will is subverted in a way that does not require oppression, such as the lycanthropy question given here, D&D rules might honestly not find anything Evil about it.

vegetalss4
2007-11-02, 04:24 PM
But that's mixing references without really getting into the alignment discussion. At its core, Chaos is about "freedom, adaptability, flexibility... recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility" while Law is about "honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability ... close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability".

When it comes down to it, free will sounds much more like a law/chaos question than a good/evil one. If free will is subverted in a way that does not require oppression, such as the lycanthropy question given here, D&D rules might honestly not find anything Evil about it.

i agree 100% with this.
ignoring free will is an lawful trait. that dont make it right.
it is wrong, but that dont make it evil

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 04:30 PM
As I interpret the alignment system, Good/Evil has nothing to do with free will. Chaotic/Lawful is all about free will. Thus, forcing people to be Good is a Lawful Good act.

Good ol' D&D alignment system, gotta love it :smallannoyed:

Chronos
2007-11-02, 05:53 PM
Lycanthropy is a race, not a species (your free to do it with some lovely women of the other race and still get off spring)The Biological Species Concept has serious difficulties in a world where dragons can breed with gelatinous cubes and demons can breed with giant spiders, and humans can apparently breed with anything with approximately two legs.

cupkeyk
2007-11-02, 06:11 PM
There is a source book I own, lolz but i forget which that has a prc, Sineater(sp?) of Eilistree(sp?), where in they have the ability to force any non good drow to make will saves or become chaotic good. This is still generally viewed as an evil act even by the practitioners and they must repent for having to resort to subjugation of will.

The ability to force a person to any alignment is an evil act.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 06:13 PM
There is a source book I own, lolz but i forget which that has a prc, Sineater(sp?) of Eilistree(sp?), where in they have the ability to force any non good drow to make will saves or become chaotic good. This is still generally viewed as an evil act even by the practitioners and they must repent for having to resort to subjugation of will.

The ability to force a person to any alignment is an evil act.

Ah, but they are chaotic. A lawful good would see no problem with it, maybe not the first choice, but still an option.

martyboy74
2007-11-02, 06:14 PM
The Biological Species Concept has serious difficulties in a world where dragons can breed with gelatinous cubes and demons can breed with giant spiders, and humans can apparently breed with anything with approximately two legs.
More than two.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-02, 06:14 PM
I just have this image in my mind of a normal guy who, when the moon is full, transforms into an Archon or Deva or whatever and goes about doing good deeds until the sun rises and he reverts to his normal form, somewhere far away from where he began the night, with no memory of his actions... and missing his clothes.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-02, 06:16 PM
The ability to force a person to any alignment is an evil act.

It's made my exalted characters' lives much harder.

Violence of most sorts is already questionable, and now any sort of manipulation shifts them away from exalted status, and towards being LE.

This is a very good example of why DnD morality would make a lot more sense (but be much more gritty) if it was teleological, rather than NML.

cupkeyk
2007-11-02, 06:28 PM
Ah, but they are chaotic. A lawful good would see no problem with it, maybe not the first choice, but still an option.

Hmmmn, yes, possibly. Tyranny, the Evil opposite of Lawful Good would support that. It was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that brought about sin. In a very Judeo-Christian light, that seems to be the lawful good ideal: subjugation of will towards pacifism.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-02, 06:41 PM
I just have this image in my mind of a normal guy who, when the moon is full, transforms into an Archon or Deva or whatever and goes about doing good deeds until the sun rises and he reverts to his normal form, somewhere far away from where he began the night, with no memory of his actions... and missing his clothes.

Were-Lantern Archon? That would be cool.

lord_khaine
2007-11-02, 06:59 PM
would be cool if the lantern archon was even sligtly more dangerous.

does anyone have any idea for improving a lantern archon with character levels btw?

Kurald Galain
2007-11-02, 07:18 PM
If it's evil to shut down people's free will, does that make the Emissary of Barachiel PrC from BOED inherently evil? It's main power is to just push people to LG alignment.

I'm not getting into an argument over whether it's "evil" by whatever today's D&D definition of the word is. It is, however, most definitely not ethical.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 07:25 PM
I'm not getting into an argument over whether it's "evil" by whatever today's D&D definition of the word is. It is, however, most definitely not ethical.

I'll agree with that statement in today's world.