Help with a character concept I have in mind.

[Tekrow]

Hello! I need help with a character concept I have in mind, but I'm not sure how to build it. I want a character that uses melee attacks(with some ranged options if possible), more dexterity based. I was thinking of perhaps Kensai Monk, but from what I've heard, it's a very subpar subclass. Rogue is another option, but I'm not sure if they quite fit the concept I have in mind due to only being able to fight with sneak attacks. As bonus points, if possible some magic and charisma would be great. Is something like this possible?

[Sigreid]

There isn't really a better multi-weapon platform than the fighter.

I've seen a Kensi monk in play, and no it wasn't week, but the person playing it knew how to use its abilities and play to it's strengths instead of being crushed by its weaknesses.

[Gtdead]

Based on the description of the mechanics, a dex warlock fits perfectly. Dex attacks, ranged options, a few spells, charisma. But I think it's not what you have envisioned. I get a "Kill Bill" vibe. Is that accurate?

[carrdrivesyou]

There isn't really a better multi-weapon platform than the fighter.

I've seen a Kensi monk in play, and no it wasn't week, but the person playing it knew how to use its abilities and play to it's strengths instead of being crushed by its weaknesses.

Can you elaborate please?

[micahaphone]

Kensai monk or samurai fighter? I would also suggest a Paladin, the base paladin chassis is great.

Kensai ends up feeling a bit defensively focused, as you don't actually get much for using a kensai weapon until much much later, but you do get some AC. That and you're a monk (base class is still great) who can use a longbow with extra damage added. A monk who can attack at any range is pretty nice, you're highly mobile, you can shoot extreme distances, and you're hard to hit.

elven samurai fighter is a devastating combo for a dex based fighter, you just use one ASI on the feat "elven accuracy" to become the most eagle-eyed sniper or duelist the world has ever seen. It also gives you a bit of a bump to persuasion at level 7.

For a cha and dex I honestly think a dex based paladin isn't a bad idea. Dexadin is more of a sidegrade, you're not a traditional paladin but you've got magic, dexterity, tankiness, good saves, healing. Your ranged attack is better than your typical paladin, nothing's stopping you from using a longbow, and you'll be barely below a str paladin in AC. I usually prefer to improve charisma on paladin for better saves, but I could see a dexadin picking up the Medium Armor Master feat, which is usually a rarity to see. Your party may prefer you take Inspiring Leader or the CHA increase though :smalltongue:

[cutlery]

Folks are going to suggest (and have) paladin, but paladins tend to have a certain flavor to them - even if the text in the books doesn't really support or require that flavor anymore.

Bards also check this box; they cast, have a d8 hit die (more hitpoints are better if you'll be in melee range), and some of them even use swords as their casting focus.

If you have a few particular types of weapons in mind (e.g. Rapier, Shortsword, etc), think on that first and then consider whether or not you need to dip a particular class or play a particular race to gain proficiency (High Elves are proficient in short swords, but not rapiers; swords bards gain proficiency in scimitars, but not greatswords, etc).

Swords bards are a pretty good fit for a dex melee build with magic; if you want more melee tricks than that look at warlock or fighter; Bards start with proficiency with rapiers which is pretty much the hardest hitting dex melee weapon. If you take that subclass, you gain access to medium armor, too. Weapon flourishes are a way to use bardic inspiration to hit harder, to gain temporary armor class, or to gain some combat mobility. Bards are full casters, and gain more powerful spells as quickly as any other caster.

Fighters bring more hit points, extra attacks a bit earlier than bards get them, and if you play at a high enough level, eventually more than two attacks per round. One fighter subclass gains spells about 1/3 as quickly as full casters.

Rangers are also a dexterity focused class, gain proficiency in all martial weapons and medium armor, and have some spells. I'd look beyond the PHB for these, and the horizon walker and monster slayer are neat choices that can be built to be a dex melee fighter. Rangers are 1/2 casters (like paladins); rangers and paladins have very different spell lists. They don't specifically benefit from charisma, but you can certainly have some and take some charisma skills via background or a racial skill choice.

Rogues are usually dex-based and come with rapier proficiency, and one subclass gets spells (they are 1/3 casters). Another, the swashbuckler can sneak attack solo targets without any help from allies, and gains a boost to initiative from charisma. Rogues start with the most skills, and gain the most expertise (double proficiency in some skills).

For any class that doesn't come with in-built magic, you can add a splash of magic via the magic initiate feat. Similarly, you can add a weapon or armor proficiency to any class with feats. If multiclassing is allowed, you can mix and match classes to gain from each (there are special rules here, and the order you gain these classes matters).

A class that lets you swing a sword (or whatever) with dexterity is easy to find; how much magic and charisma you want and what you want to do with it will probably determine or narrow your choices for you.

[FabulousFizban]

Wood elf kensei 5/war cleric 1/fighter 2. You didnt mention a level.

[Frogreaver]

Hello! I need help with a character concept I have in mind, but I'm not sure how to build it. I want a character that uses melee attacks(with some ranged options if possible), more dexterity based. I was thinking of perhaps Kensai Monk, but from what I've heard, it's a very subpar subclass. Rogue is another option, but I'm not sure if they quite fit the concept I have in mind due to only being able to fight with sneak attacks. As bonus points, if possible some magic and charisma would be great. Is something like this possible?

There's nothing wrong with a dex based paladin. Maybe Vengeance so you get hunter's mark. Just ignore strength and don't multiclass.

Hexblade could work but you'd need to be okay being charisma based.

Dex based Eldtrich Knight would feel good for this - maybe multiclass with ranger later (get both fighting styles and hunter's mark).

Kensai Monk isn't bad for this either.

Rogue is probably the best dex based character - I suggest at least looking at the swashbuckler before ruling rogue out.

[cutlery]

Dex based Eldtrich Knight would feel good for this - maybe multiclass with ranger later (get both fighting styles and hunter's mark).


Especially if Favored Foe from the 2019 Class Feature Variants is available.

Non-concentration hunter's mark, usable wisdom mod times per long rest.

[jaappleton]

Charisma casting with Dexterity based weapons, in melee range.

It absolutely can be done. There are a few issues, which I'll elaborate on. They are issues that can be fixed, but there are some concerns for sure.

1. Armor Class. Being in Dex puts you in Studded Leather, at an AC of 12+Dex. Which isn't terrible, but if you're going to be in melee, you'll also really want proficiency in Shields. You can mitigate your AC in other ways, but shields do this easily and don't require too much investment.

2. Melee combat. Typically this means two attacks, minimum. And there's plenty of classes that get this. So its not so much an issue, but it helps narrow down our list of potential builds.

3. Charisma casting. Again, many ways to do it, but to narrow things down it should be listed.

For these reasons, I recommend Bard. Swords or Valor. Both get the extra attack at 6th level. They're also full spellcasters. Charisma and skills out the wazoo. You can fight in melee, you can be charismatic in talks outside of combat. Your spell list lends itself incredibly well to shut down enemies, and empower yourself to further enhance your melee capabilities.

Please trust me when I say despite being a Bard, you don't at all have to be musical. You can play it as an archaelogist, a dungeon delver who adventures into danger to uncover lost secrets. Nothing, absolutely nothing about the Bard pigeonholes you into being any sort of music centric character.

[Tekrow]

Based on the description of the mechanics, a dex warlock fits perfectly. Dex attacks, ranged options, a few spells, charisma. But I think it's not what you have envisioned. I get a "Kill Bill" vibe. Is that accurate?

Yes, that's an accurate vibe.


There's nothing wrong with a dex based paladin. Maybe Vengeance so you get hunter's mark. Just ignore strength and don't multiclass.

Hexblade could work but you'd need to be okay being charisma based.

Dex based Eldtrich Knight would feel good for this - maybe multiclass with ranger later (get both fighting styles and hunter's mark).

Kensai Monk isn't bad for this either.

Rogue is probably the best dex based character - I suggest at least looking at the swashbuckler before ruling rogue out.

The rogue is a perfectly valid class, but I'm not sure if it fits the thematic and looks that I'm going for. Maybe Swashbuckler could be it, I haven't played one before.


Charisma casting with Dexterity based weapons, in melee range.

It absolutely can be done. There are a few issues, which I'll elaborate on. They are issues that can be fixed, but there are some concerns for sure.

1. Armor Class. Being in Dex puts you in Studded Leather, at an AC of 12+Dex. Which isn't terrible, but if you're going to be in melee, you'll also really want proficiency in Shields. You can mitigate your AC in other ways, but shields do this easily and don't require too much investment.

2. Melee combat. Typically this means two attacks, minimum. And there's plenty of classes that get this. So its not so much an issue, but it helps narrow down our list of potential builds.

3. Charisma casting. Again, many ways to do it, but to narrow things down it should be listed.

For these reasons, I recommend Bard. Swords or Valor. Both get the extra attack at 6th level. They're also full spellcasters. Charisma and skills out the wazoo. You can fight in melee, you can be charismatic in talks outside of combat. Your spell list lends itself incredibly well to shut down enemies, and empower yourself to further enhance your melee capabilities.

Please trust me when I say despite being a Bard, you don't at all have to be musical. You can play it as an archaelogist, a dungeon delver who adventures into danger to uncover lost secrets. Nothing, absolutely nothing about the Bard pigeonholes you into being any sort of music centric character.

Bard is another option I've had in mind too, but not sure between College of Sword or College of Valor. Regarding the Charisma, it doesn't necessarily has to have CHA based casting. It's mostly that in my group of friends I'm usually the party face, and it's a role I greatly enjoy, so I always try to put some CHA skills and abilities in the classes I play.

Also, what about multiclassing? Maybe Ranger /Rogue? or Kensai Monk with something else? I think of all the classes, either the Rogue or the Kensai monk aesthetically fit the bill with what I want, but I'm not sure if they do gameplay wise. Gameplay, probably the ranger is closest.

Warlock multiclass is always great too, but I'm not sure if thematically it fits what I have in mind. My character is going to be some sort of Ronin/Witch Hunter/Demon Hunter, so I'm not sure if making a Pact is something that would fit his character.

EDIT: Also, forgot to add. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving me, thanks!

[Throne12]

So I'm going to suggest a high elf bladesinger wizard. Your a full caster you get great AC buffs and you can use a bow and sword Effectively if you feeling like you want to up your weapon damage there are spells for that. Yes your an Int based and not charisma but. Try using skills with int just like you can use intimidation with str instead of charisma. There are rules in dmg and xgte i believe. If you want more detail or ideas on this look up WebDM video about this.

[cutlery]

Warlock multiclass is always great too, but I'm not sure if thematically it fits what I have in mind. My character is going to be some sort of Ronin/Witch Hunter/Demon Hunter, so I'm not sure if making a Pact is something that would fit his character.

EDIT: Also, forgot to add. I really appreciate the help you guys are giving me, thanks!

Making a deal with one demon to hunt others isn't that strange. It might not be the concept you want, of course, but it's common enough. E.g. Gregor Eisenhorn (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gregor_Eisenhorn).

[Tekrow]

Making a deal with one demon to hunt others isn't that strange. It might not be the concept you want, of course, but it's common enough. E.g. Gregor Eisenhorn (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gregor_Eisenhorn).

It could work, you are right there. But how would that multiclass work?

[Reynaert]

Warlock multiclass is always great too, but I'm not sure if thematically it fits what I have in mind. My character is going to be some sort of Ronin/Witch Hunter/Demon Hunter, so I'm not sure if making a Pact is something that would fit his character.

You can always fluff it as a samurai or similar type who was given a special katana, from which he can pull special chi force to make magic things happen (i.e. a Hexblade).

Also, I have played a Tempest Cleric dex build (rapier+shield) which went quite well. That's wisdom casting, not charisma, but just throwing it out there.

[Houster]

It could work, you are right there. But how would that multiclass work?

I think of two ways. Hexblade1/bard x (gets extra attack at char level7, bummer)
Or
Hexblade 5/bard x(gets extra attack at 5th, but level 6th bard(char level 11) is a dead level, gets extra attack which you already get by having thirsting blade.

I like the latter option. More fighty less casty. Get shield, mirror image, shadow blade etc, and actually have spell slots for them(from bard). And some very cool invocations too.

Hexblade is best for melee/min max/SADness but you can take other warlocks.

BTW swords sounds much more fun than valor. A little battlemastery with the flourishes. If you want to be more supportive take valor.

[Sigreid]

Can you elaborate please?

I'm not as up on it as him. He had a move that increased his ac by 2 until his next turn. He used ki for stunning. He used K to move in and out of range without provoking AOO.

My shadow monk likes to run in, strike twice and teleport out of their movement range.

[Matt4]

I'm building a dexterity based Eldritch Knight as I'm writing this post, so I may be biased :smalltongue: but my vote goes to it.

[Gtdead]

Dex swords bard with a splash of assassin, fighter and paladin would make a great demon hunter. Bard is the main chassis that offers spells and skills, along with shadowblade (can be refluffed) and Steel Wind Strike (slickest spell in the game), smite from paladin (perhaps lvl 3 vengeance for vow of enmity too), assassin for the surprise round (huntery feeling), and fighter just for actionsurge.

See demon? Smite demon with the fury of 4 shadowblade attacks + smite. See multiple demons? Hack and Slash them with SWS. And if you see them from stealth, hack and slash them even harder.

It will come together at higher levels though (12, bard 10 and paladin 2). Still swords bard is nice.

[Tekrow]

Dex swords bard with a splash of assassin, fighter and paladin would make a great demon hunter. Bard is the main chassis that offers spells and skills, along with shadowblade (can be refluffed) and Steel Wind Strike (slickest spell in the game), smite from paladin (perhaps lvl 3 vengeance for vow of enmity too), assassin for the surprise round (huntery feeling), and fighter just for actionsurge.

See demon? Smite demon with the fury of 4 shadowblade attacks + smite. See multiple demons? Hack and Slash them with SWS. And if you see them from stealth, hack and slash them even harder.

It will come together at higher levels though (12, bard 10 and paladin 2). Still swords bard is nice.

Sounds like an interesting concept. At what level do the other classes come in?

[Gtdead]

Sounds like an interesting concept. At what level do the other classes come in?

There are quite a few ways to do it. One is to start bard for the spell progression and faster extra attack, another is to start as a Paladin 2 and then switch to bard till Shadowblade, then go for Assassin 3 and grab GWM for the extra attack on a critical. By now you should be able to kill pretty much anything in a surprise round with 3 attacks shadowblade, 3 smites, sword bard shenanigans. And SWS will deal a lot of damage out of stealth because it can crit. You can then choose to level bard or go fighter for even more damage. I like fighter because he can do both SWS + Attack in a round with action surge.

[cutlery]

It could work, you are right there. But how would that multiclass work?

I don't think you would need to multiclass at all; pure hexblade.

[Tekrow]

Thank you all for your help! In relation to what I have said, which class or multiclass would work best with with a character that fights both in melee(with a rapier or similar) and a bow?

[Gtdead]

That would be the rogue IMO. He doesn't get any class features that help one style or the other, nor he is too inclined to pick feats that promote either style. An arcane trickster with Booming Blade and sharpshooter would be equally good both in melee and ranged.

[Tekrow]

That would be the rogue IMO. He doesn't get any class features that help one style or the other, nor he is too inclined to pick feats that promote either style. An arcane trickster with Booming Blade and sharpshooter would be equally good both in melee and ranged.

Would it optimal to multiclass it with something like Ranger or Monk?

[Gtdead]

I don't like multiclassing rogue with monk. Too many redundancies, and martial arts doesn't work well with sneak attack. SA requires finesse and MA doesn't provide it (you can ask your DM to change it, but it doesn't work with the current rules). So if you want to use Kensei, Path of the Kensei is completely useless. You can't Sneak Attack with punches, your bonus action is better used on cunning action/disengage and caligraphy isn't a combat bonus.

Next is the base monk chassis. Martial Arts don't help the rogue, flurry of blows will be fine when you get it but it will diminish fast once you multiclass out of rogue. Extra attack is nice because it helps you land your sneak attack but stunning strike will be too situational because you won't have enough Ki to use it consistently.

I like ranger multiclass a bit more, because ranger expands the rogue out of combat toolkit, archery is fairly good on rogue (if you go ranged), pass without a trace helps the party be as stealthy as you and extra attack is nice. If you are human, gloomstalker gives the much needed darkvision. But still I'm not big on delaying rogue's abilities and I don't think it's optimal.

[Tekrow]

I don't like multiclassing rogue with monk. Too many redundancies, and martial arts doesn't work well with sneak attack. SA requires finesse and MA doesn't provide it (you can ask your DM to change it, but it doesn't work with the current rules). So if you want to use Kensei, Path of the Kensei is completely useless. You can't Sneak Attack with punches, your bonus action is better used on cunning action/disengage and caligraphy isn't a combat bonus.

Next is the base monk chassis. Martial Arts don't help the rogue, flurry of blows will be fine when you get it but it will diminish fast once you multiclass out of rogue. Extra attack is nice because it helps you land your sneak attack but stunning strike will be too situational because you won't have enough Ki to use it consistently.

I like ranger multiclass a bit more, because ranger expands the rogue out of combat toolkit, archery is fairly good on rogue (if you go ranged), pass without a trace helps the party be as stealthy as you and extra attack is nice. If you are human, gloomstalker gives the much needed darkvision. But still I'm not big on delaying rogue's abilities and I don't think it's optimal.
That's good to know. Are there any other classes or multiclasses that can do Melee fighting and archery well enough?

[Gtdead]

I guess dex Fighter ( Eldritch Knight and Samurai ) could do it, although the optimized ranged output would be way more impressive than the melee.
From there on you have to go for gishes but things start getting really blurry. Any caster with tenser's transformation can perform well in both melee and ranged for the duration. But this will start happening later in the game (lvl 11+).

This is a common theme btw, whenever you try to do both melee and ranged weapons, ranged will always take the cake cause dex doesn't have high melee potential unless it's rogue or caster. You can do it but when push comes to shove you will most likely use ranged attacks.

[Reynaert]

That's good to know. Are there any other classes or multiclasses that can do Melee fighting and archery well enough?

Depends on 'well enough' but hexblades are quite good at crit-fishing with both melee and ranged, with expanded crit range (curse), lots of advantage (darkness+devils)(*) and one smite per fight (roughly) for slot level+1 d8 (doubled on crit of course).

*) Ask your teammates. On ranged it's less of an issue because you can stay at 30' with your 15' radius darkness blob, so your team isn't inside it.

[RogueJK]

Are there any other classes or multiclasses that can do Melee fighting and archery well enough?

If you're wanting to have a Dex-based character that's good at both melee and archery, you'll need a few things:

1) Extra Attack(s)
2) Access to 2 fighting styles (Archery and either Dueling or Two Weapon)
3) Additional feats (since you'll want Sharpshooter plus potentially Crossbow Expert for archery, plus want to max out DEX, and also maybe take something like Dual Wielder for melee)

All that points towards Fighter. A single classed Champion fighter, while vanilla, hits all of those points by Level 10. Also doable with a Multiclass Fighter with 2 levels of Paladin/Ranger, or 3 levels of Swords Bard, to pick up the additional Fighting Style. If multiclassing, then Battlemaster is a good option for the Fighter subclass, since a number of their Maneuvers are usable with both melee and ranged weapon attacks.


Another option if you're wanting a switch-hitter who isn't necessarily an archer is a Gish like a Sword Warlock or Bladesinger Wizard. In addition to (or instead of) a bow/crossbow, you could use cantrips like Fire Bolt or Eldritch Blast for ranged attacks, while still mixing it up in melee using a Finesse weapon (or especially a Shadow Blade) with Extra Attack, augmented by defensive spells. Less feat/fighting style dependent. Greater overall magical utility and defense. But more MAD, due to needing a high DEX, decent CON, and high CHA/INT (potentially partly mitigated if choosing Hexblade Warlock for CHA-based melee which would lessen the need to max out DEX).