Supernatural Spell (Su) handbook for Dweomerkeeper

[redking]

Does something like a Supernatural Spell (Su) handbook for Dweomerkeeper exist? Focusing not only on XP reduction shenanigans, but in all the ways that Supernatural Spell (Su) can be leveraged in 3.5e.

If not, lets crowdsource one right here.

[Melcar]

Does something like a Supernatural Spell (Su) handbook for Dweomerkeeper exist? Focusing not only on XP reduction shenanigans, but in all the ways that Supernatural Spell (Su) can be leveraged in 3.5e.

If not, lets crowdsource one right here.

You could use it to cast fabricate, and thus manifest free platinum for unlimited money! Screw that WBL!!!

[Doctor Despair]

You could use it to cast fabricate, and thus manifest free platinum for unlimited money! Screw that WBL!!!

That's a peasant's choice; clearly a sophisticated person of culture would use wish to duplicate the effects of fabricate, just to rub in how super(natural)ior we are to all the riff-raff that actually pays for their spells. The very thought!

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not aware of a handbook. Here are a few thoughts

A limitation of Supernatural Spell is that applies to standard action only spells. Pretty much any spell can be made standard action using Uncanny Forethought for Spell Mastery spells. Although Spell Mastery requires Wizard 1 as a prerequisite, it can apply to other prepared classes such as Archivist. Swapping out which spells are mastered for spell mastery purposes can be done via the use of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos without loss of XP. The net effect is that a well-built dweomerkeeper can apply Supernatural Spell to almost any spell with a few rounds preparation.

Supernatural Spell also enables an advanced form of scry and die.
Step 1: cast polymorph into some particularly small form able to cast spells
Step 2: cast Ghostform
Step 3: cast Maximized Time Stop (via a rod)
Step 4 (Time Stop 1): Supernatural[Wishport[inside target]]
Step 5 (Time Stop 2): Disjunction from inside the target. LoE should block this from affecting anyone except the target while stripping all spell defenses from the target.
Step 6 (Time Stop 3-5): Ready an action to cast a spell as soon as timestop ends
Step 7 (readied action): cast payload spell from inside defenseless target.
Step 8 (immediate action): cast celerity
Step 9 (celerity action): Supernatural[Wishport[home]]

[NigelWalmsley]

You don't need Supernatural Spell to break the economy with Fabricate. Breaking the economy is the whole thing Fabricate does. Also Fabricate doesn't work with Supernatural Spell because it takes more than a standard action to cast.

To understand how to use Supernatural Spell, you need to look at the differences between Supernatural abilities and Spells. The big ones are that Supernatural abilities are standard actions by default, and that you don't pay any costs. The former doesn't matter, because Supernatural Spell can only be used for spells with a casting time of a standard action or less. So the big deal is the latter. And the big game there is Limited Wish (which, as it happens, lets you backdoor into cheating casting times), because you're taking the Spell Domain to qualify for Dweomerkeeper anyway.

You can also skip the costs on Vile or Sanctified spells. Some of those are actually good enough that people cast them normally. But mostly you do stupid cheese with Awaken, Permanency anything you want, cast a huge range of spells spontaneously, or cast spells like Planar Binding or Major Creation as standard actions (did you know that "a big pile of lava on top of you" is a valid product for Major Creation?).

[Doctor Despair]

I'm not aware of a handbook. Here are a few thoughts

Step 5 (Time Stop 2): Disjunction from inside the target. LoE should block this from affecting anyone except the target while stripping all spell defenses from the target.

Wouldn't you also be in range of the disjunction, ending your ghostform, polymorph, and time stop?

Doesn't Foresight mean they'd receive some warning about this, and presumably ALSO have a readied action?

Finally, there's still the standard defense against disjunction: "I have NI costless artifacts in my spell pouch. Make NI will saves for destroying NI of them."

[NigelWalmsley]

Finally, there's still the standard defense against disjunction: "I have NI costless artifacts in my spell pouch. Make NI will saves for destroying NI of them."

I would not call that a "standard" defense against Disjunction.

[Doctor Despair]

I would not call that a "standard" defense against Disjunction.

I mean, it's standard in the sense that any character that owns a spell component pouch can use it. Almost zero investment needed.

[Melcar]

You don't need Supernatural Spell to break the economy with Fabricate. Breaking the economy is the whole thing Fabricate does. Also Fabricate doesn't work with Supernatural Spell because it takes more than a standard action to cast.

To understand how to use Supernatural Spell, you need to look at the differences between Supernatural abilities and Spells. The big ones are that Supernatural abilities are standard actions by default, and that you don't pay any costs. The former doesn't matter, because Supernatural Spell can only be used for spells with a casting time of a standard action or less. So the big deal is the latter. And the big game there is Limited Wish (which, as it happens, lets you backdoor into cheating casting times), because you're taking the Spell Domain to qualify for Dweomerkeeper anyway.

You can also skip the costs on Vile or Sanctified spells. Some of those are actually good enough that people cast them normally. But mostly you do stupid cheese with Awaken, Permanency anything you want, cast a huge range of spells spontaneously, or cast spells like Planar Binding or Major Creation as standard actions (did you know that "a big pile of lava on top of you" is a valid product for Major Creation?).

Fair play, then use supernatural wish to duplicate fabricate!

[Anthrowhale]

Wouldn't you also be in range of the disjunction, ending your ghostform, polymorph, and time stop?
No.


All magical effects ... except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined.



Doesn't Foresight mean they'd receive some warning about this, and presumably ALSO have a readied action?
Foresight might give them forewarning that they are in danger, but how could that be used? What would the target ready an action for? There might be a clever choice here, but can you think of it?

[Melcar]

No.



Foresight might give them forewarning that they are in danger, but how could that be used? What would the target ready an action for? There might be a clever choice here, but can you think of it?

Foresight gives you very spcific boons. You recieve no more, no less that what is says; ergo:

1) You are never surprised or flat-footed.
2) +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
3) no really thats it!

There is no diefic intervention here... you get the above two boons only!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Foresight might give them forewarning that they are in danger, but how could that be used? What would the target ready an action for? There might be a clever choice here, but can you think of it?This is half the reason tinfoil hats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat) were created, I think.

[NigelWalmsley]

Foresight also "gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself". That's described as separate from the AC bonus and the flat-footed/surprise immunity, so presumably if someone tries to gank you while you have Foresight up, the spell tells you to Teleport somewhere else (or take some other useful action). That said, it's actually a kinda mediocre spell. It gives you an immunity that is hard to get, and relevant in high-op caster fights, but mostly you'd be better off spending your 9th level slots on spells like Wail of the Banshee, Weird, or even relatively fair uses of Shapechange.

[Melcar]

Foresight also "gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself". That's described as separate from the AC bonus and the flat-footed/surprise immunity, so presumably if someone tries to gank you while you have Foresight up, the spell tells you to Teleport somewhere else (or take some other useful action). That said, it's actually a kinda mediocre spell. It gives you an immunity that is hard to get, and relevant in high-op caster fights, but mostly you'd be better off spending your 9th level slots on spells like Wail of the Banshee, Weird, or even relatively fair uses of Shapechange.

You're quoting the fluff text, which in game mechanics are represented by the "You are never surprised or flat-footed" and the +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

[Anthrowhale]

Finally, there's still the standard defense against disjunction: "I have NI costless artifacts in my spell pouch. Make NI will saves for destroying NI of them."
This is also a 'nope' due to:

You cannot ... harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time...


This is half the reason tinfoil hats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?129012-How-Many-Uses-for-a-Tinfoil-Hat) were created, I think.
I don't see the point here---ghostform means the ability to freely pass through a dispelled shrink item.


... the spell tells you to Teleport somewhere else...
If a target Teleports elsewhere before the Time Stop begins, then Wishport could target the new location.

[Darg]

You're quoting the fluff text, which in game mechanics are represented by the "You are never surprised or flat-footed" and the +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

That's an interesting interpretation considering it comes between the 2 bonuses you mentioned. Especially when the entire second paragraph of the description requires it to be an actual benefit to even function.

[NigelWalmsley]

Pretty much any spell can be made standard action using Uncanny Forethought for Spell Mastery spells.

This doesn't work.


Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability.

As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat.

Uncanny Forethought doesn't change the casting time of the spell you cast. Just like how using Wish to emulate Raise Dead wouldn't make Raise Dead have a casting time of 1 standard action.


If a target Teleports elsewhere before the Time Stop begins, then Wishport could target the new location.

Then take some other action. The specific defense doesn't matter.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't see the point here---ghostform means the ability to freely pass through a dispelled shrink item.You cannot share a space with a hostile creature within (I believe) 2 size categories of yourself, so if the tinfoil hat is just large enough to cover your space, the ghostform caster can't stop inside it while you're there unless it's more than 2 size categories smaller than you. Plus, you unshrink your hat as a readied action in response to the casting of disjunction, so how would they move into your space between the disjunction going off and it flooding your space? (Or bouncing off the hat, as the case may be.)

[newguydude1]

Uncanny Forethought doesn't change the casting time of the spell you cast. Just like how using Wish to emulate Raise Dead wouldn't make Raise Dead have a casting time of 1 standard action.

no your wrong


but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability.

at the moment of casting with uncanny forethought the spell is a standard action to cast. ergo casting time of 1 standard action.

this is rapid spelll

A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action.

same language. a full round spell can be cast as a standard action if its made rapid. rapid spell most definitely changes the casting time of the spell. uncanny forethought has same language. as a standard action you can cast.

if you want to get nitpicky i am casting an uncanny forethought spell. uncanny forethought spell has different stats as the regular version like -2cl and casting time.

if you want to be right you gotta prove rapid spell doesnt change the casting time of the modified spell. "can cast" = change casting time.

nowhere does the dweomerkeeper ability say original casting time or base casting time of 1 standard action. it works on all spells that can be cast as a standard action. "can be cast" = casting time. literally.

[Melcar]

That's an interesting interpretation considering it comes between the 2 bonuses you mentioned. Especially when the entire second paragraph of the description requires it to be an actual benefit to even function.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean... but it specifically say that "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself—duck, jump right, close your eyes, and so on—and thus gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves." So the fluff is represented in game mechanics as the +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex save. There is no 6th sense here. Only +2 ac and reflex.

Likewise, "you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm" means that your enemy gets no surprise round and you are never flat-footed. Again the DM is not supposed to tell you that a shadow dragon will attack in 5, 4, 3...1... You simple get the benefits of your enemies not having a surprise round, you not being flat footed and finally +2 AC and Reflex save.

Thats it!

EDIT: At least that how I read it, and how we have always played it... I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me!

[gogogome]

Uncanny Forethought doesn't change the casting time of the spell you cast. Just like how using Wish to emulate Raise Dead wouldn't make Raise Dead have a casting time of 1 standard action.

That's an interesting take. Haven't seen this one before. But Uncanny Forethought most definitely modifies the spell you cast. You cannot apply a -2 caster level penalty without modifying the spell being cast.

If you think about it, your position is quite strange. You are saying as a standard action you activate a feat that casts a spell. This would mean using a reserved spell slot to cast a spell provokes no attack of opportunity. Because you are not casting anything, you are activating a feat.

I think we all agree that Uncanny Forethought is not an activated feat ability. It gives you spell slots, it lets you use spell slots to cast spells, it lets you cast spells as a standard action or a full-round action, and it sometimes applies a -2 caster level penalty to the spell you are casting. So if you choose to use the feat to cast a spell, its casting time is modified and sometimes its caster level is modified too.

[newguydude1]

That's an interesting take. Haven't seen this one before. But Uncanny Forethought most definitely modifies the spell you cast. You cannot apply a -2 caster level penalty without modifying the spell being cast.

If you think about it, your position is quite strange. You are saying as a standard action you activate a feat that casts a spell. This would mean using a reserved spell slot to cast a spell provokes no attack of opportunity. Because you are not casting anything, you are activating a feat.

I think we all agree that Uncanny Forethought is not an activated feat ability. It gives you spell slots, it lets you use spell slots to cast spells, it lets you cast spells as a standard action or a full-round action, and it sometimes applies a -2 caster level penalty to the spell you are casting. So if you choose to use the feat to cast a spell, its casting time is modified and sometimes its caster level is modified too.

yeah your not casting a feat your casting a spell. if it lets you cast a spell as a standard action that spells casting time is a standard action.

again rapid spell. "can be cast" = modify casting time. supernatural ability doesn't say "base casting time" or "original casting time".

[NigelWalmsley]

You cannot apply a -2 caster level penalty without modifying the spell being cast.

What? You can totally do that. Fireball isn't a different spell at CL 5 than it is at CL 7. It has different effects, but it's the same spell. Just as Alter Self is the same spell when by a Red Dragon (who could turn themselves into a White Dragon) as when cast by an Elf (who could not do that).


If you think about it, your position is quite strange. You are saying as a standard action you activate a feat that casts a spell. This would mean using a reserved spell slot to cast a spell provokes no attack of opportunity. Because you are not casting anything, you are activating a feat.

Consider Versatile Spellcaster. It allows you to cast a 4th level spell by expending two 3rd level spell slots. Does that mean that the spell is modified to be 3rd level? After all, you didn't spend any 4th level spell slots to cast it, so by this logic it can't be a 4th level spell.

[gogogome]

Consider Versatile Spellcaster. It allows you to cast a 4th level spell by expending two 3rd level spell slots. Does that mean that the spell is modified to be 3rd level? After all, you didn't spend any 4th level spell slots to cast it, so by this logic it can't be a 4th level spell.

Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast a 4th level spell using 2 3rd level slots. Therefore you are casting a 4th level spell.
Uncanny Forethought lets you cast a 1hour spell in 1 standard action. Therefore your casting time for the spell (a.k.a. the spell's casting time) is 1 standard action.

What you are essentially saying is that a spell that takes 1 standard action to cast is somehow not casting time 1 standard action. All spells need a casting time. If it takes 1 standard action to cast then its casting time is 1 standard action. You cant have a casting time 1 standard action and call it 1 hour casting time.

[NigelWalmsley]

If it takes 1 standard action to cast then its casting time is 1 standard action. You cant have a casting time 1 standard action and call it 1 hour casting time.

No. If the "Casting Time" entry is 1 standard action, then the casting time is 1 standard action. If it is not, it isn't, even if you have some effect that lets you cast it faster.

[gogogome]

No. If the "Casting Time" entry is 1 standard action, then the casting time is 1 standard action. If it is not, it isn't, even if you have some effect that lets you cast it faster.

Yes it is. Persistent Spell only targets fixed range. If you apply ocular spell to the spell in question then it becomes a valid target of Persistent Spell.

There is only 1 casting time. When you cast a spell, you cast the spell for a certain amount of time. That is what a casting time is.

If a sorcerer casts fireball in 1 standard action then the casting time for that fireball is 1 standard action. And you follow all the rules regarding 1 standard action casting time.
If a sorcerer casts Maximized Fireball in 1 full round then the casting time for that Maximized Fireball is 1 full round regardless of what the base spell description says or what the casting time for other spellcasters are. And this full round action casting time disqualifies Maximized Fireball for anything reliant on standard action casting time such as Supernatural Spell regardless of what the base spell description says.

If the Supernatural Spell said original casting time you have a point. It doesn't. It says casting time. When you cast a spell, you need a casting time. Its a requirement for casting a spell. And that casting time is standard action for uncanny forethought wizards. So you follow the rules for standard action casting time.

I'll repeat. There is only 1 casting time. Unmodified original casting times have no relevance.

[Darg]

I'm not sure what exactly you mean... but it specifically say that "the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself—duck, jump right, close your eyes, and so on—and thus gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves." So the fluff is represented in game mechanics as the +2 insight bonus to AC and reflex save. There is no 6th sense here. Only +2 ac and reflex.

Likewise, "you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm" means that your enemy gets no surprise round and you are never flat-footed. Again the DM is not supposed to tell you that a shadow dragon will attack in 5, 4, 3...1... You simple get the benefits of your enemies not having a surprise round, you not being flat footed and finally +2 AC and Reflex save.

Thats it!

EDIT: At least that how I read it, and how we have always played it... I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me!

The second paragraph allows you to act to protect your allies with the predictive benefit of the spell. Your ally doesn't get a reflex save bonus and it's not like a trap you aren't springing forces you into a reflex save to prevent your ally from walking into it. Trap activations don't have a surprise round either. The only way for this part part of the spell to function is for the "general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself" to be a tangible benefit. When it's cast on another, "you receive warnings about that creature," has to be a tangible benefit or there is no function to that paragraph of the description.

Foresight doesn't tell you there is a trap you or your ally is about to step on, it simply gives you the knowledge that finishing that step spells danger. Your action from there is on you. Avoiding danger isn't always the most optimal solution.

[newguydude1]

No. If the "Casting Time" entry is 1 standard action, then the casting time is 1 standard action. If it is not, it isn't, even if you have some effect that lets you cast it faster.

so according to you...

"A rapid spell with a casting time measured in rounds can be cast in 1 full round."

Normal Casting Time New Casting Time
1 standard action 1 swift action
1 full round 1 standard action

so a sorcerer with arcane spellsurge casts a rapid permanency. according to you permanency will still take 2 rounds to cast?

your breaking everything just to somehow rule lawyer away something you dont like.

i agree with gogogome. there is only 1 casting time. and that casting time is the one that is used to cast the spell. so the casting time of permanency is 1 standard action if you use uncanny forethought, or arcane spellsurge+rapid spell.

either uncanny forethought is a standard action activated ability that casts a spell without a casting time, as in after a standard action the spell comes into effect immediately with no attack of opportunity, or your wrong.

[gogogome]

either uncanny forethought is a standard action activated ability that casts a spell without a casting time, as in after a standard action the spell comes into effect immediately with no attack of opportunity, or your wrong.

To cast a spell, you need to speak, gesture, and manipulate components for a set amount of time. This is what "casting" means.

If Uncanny Forethought lets you cast a spell without actually casting, then you skip all of this, because activating a feat does not require speaking, gesturing, or manipulating components. So by this interpretation, Uncanny Forethought bypasses all xp and material component.

If Uncanny Forethought doesn't do this. If it just changes the casting time of the spell, then the casting time is modified and a valid target of Supernatural Spell.

I suspect he's saying something even crazier though. I think he's saying Uncanny Forethought modifies the spell's casting time, but for the purposes of Supernatural Spell you have to use the unmodified casting time because... he says so?

[NigelWalmsley]

I'll repeat. There is only 1 casting time. Unmodified original casting times have no relevance.

What is the casting time of a Greater Planar Binding you emulated with Wish? Answer: 10 minutes. And yet, you did not spend 10 minutes to cast it. Similarly, the fact that Uncanny Forethought lets you cast a spell as a Standard Action does not change its casting time. Casting time is a property of the spell.

Again, go back to Versatile Spellcaster. If you trade in two 2nd level spell slots to cast Fireball, you get a Fireball without ever spending a 3rd level spell slot. And yet Fireball is still a 3rd level spell. Similarly, if you use Uncanny Forethought to cast Major Creation in a standard action, it doesn't change the casting time of the spell even though you didn't burn a minute doing it. Your position, that spell level is inherent and casting time is not is just special pleading. Either the spell's properties are set by the way you cast it, or they are set by the spell. You don't get to pick and choose.

You could get around this with metamagic, but Uncanny Forethought isn't a metamagic feat.

[gogogome]

What is the casting time of a Greater Planar Binding you emulated with Wish? Answer: 10 minutes. And yet, you did not spend 10 minutes to cast it. Similarly, the fact that Uncanny Forethought lets you cast a spell as a Standard Action does not change its casting time. Casting time is a property of the spell.

1. You cannot apply Supernatural Spell to Greater Planar Binding because its casting time is 10minutes.
2. You CAN apply Supernatural Spell to Wish because its casting time is 1 standard action.
3. You CAN apply Supernatural Spell to Wish that's emulating Greater Planar Binding because the casting time here is 1 standard action.
So what are you saying here exactly with this example? Using Wish made Greater Planar Binding a valid target for Supernatural Spell. Using wish to REDUCE the casting time of Greater Planar Binding to standard action made it a valid target for Supernatural Spell.


Your position, that spell level is inherent and casting time is not is just special pleading. Either the spell's properties are set by the way you cast it, or they are set by the spell. You don't get to pick and choose.

Spell level is not inherent. Heighten Spell changes spell levels. Everything in a spell is modifiable.

Heighten a spell to 9th and it bypasses Globe of Invulnerability.
Apply Ocular Spell to Antimagic Ray and it becomes a valid target for a Persistent Spell.
Use Uncanny Forethought to reduce the casting time to a standard action and it becomes a valid target for everything that only affects standard action.

You could get around this with metamagic, but Uncanny Forethought isn't a metamagic feat.

Give me a rule citation that says only metamagic feats can modify spells so that its a valid target for Supernatural Spells and that nonmetamagic feats that modify spells cannot make a spell legal for Supernatural Spell.

[newguydude1]

Your position, that spell level is inherent and casting time is not is just special pleading. Either the spell's properties are set by the way you cast it, or they are set by the spell. You don't get to pick and choose.

1. heighten spell
2. we are all saying spell's properties are set by the way you cast it. the end. end of story.

so we good? cause, you know, you havent given one example where spell's properties are not set by the way you cast it.


You could get around this with metamagic, but Uncanny Forethought isn't a metamagic feat.

looks like your the one picking and choosing.
you dont get to pick and choose.
you dont get to say only metamagic feats can make spells legal for class features but nonmetamagic feats cant.



lets make this simple. very simple.

can you use spells/feats to modify spells so that they become legal for spells/feats?

persistent ocular spell says yes.
heighten spell vs globe of vulnerability says yes.
heightened silent image for shadowcraft mage says yes
rapid spell + arcane spellsurge says yes.
greater planar binding + wish says yes.
template stacking says yes.

so the answer? yes.
so can you use uncanny forethought to modify a spells casting time so its legal for supernatural spell? the answer? yes.

[Maat Mons]

Personally, I think the best part of Supernatural Spell is that supernatural abilities are not subject to Dispel or Disjunction. They are subject to Antimagic Field... unless you're a cleric with the Initiate of Mystra feat.

[Melcar]

What is the casting time of a Greater Planar Binding you emulated with Wish? Answer: 10 minutes.

Wrong... its 1 standard action!

[magicalmagicman]

Again, go back to Versatile Spellcaster. If you trade in two 2nd level spell slots to cast Fireball, you get a Fireball without ever spending a 3rd level spell slot. And yet Fireball is still a 3rd level spell. Similarly, if you use Uncanny Forethought to cast Major Creation in a standard action, it doesn't change the casting time of the spell even though you didn't burn a minute doing it. Your position, that spell level is inherent and casting time is not is just special pleading. Either the spell's properties are set by the way you cast it, or they are set by the spell. You don't get to pick and choose.

I don't fully understand.

Versatile Spellcaster lets you use 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell. How is this relevant? If you cast Fireball from a 9th level spell slot its still a 3rd level spell. Spell slots have no effect on spell level.

[NigelWalmsley]

Using Wish made Greater Planar Binding a valid target for Supernatural Spell.

No, it didn't. Wish emulated Greater Planar Binding. At no point was Greater Planar Binding a valid target for Supernatural Spell, and at no point was Supernatural Spell used to target Greater Planar Binding. In fact, that example has nothing to do with Supernatural Spell in any specific sense.


Heighten a spell to 9th and it bypasses Globe of Invulnerability.
Apply Ocular Spell to Antimagic Ray and it becomes a valid target for a Persistent Spell.
Use Uncanny Forethought to reduce the casting time to a standard action and it becomes a valid target for everything that only affects standard action.

One of these things is not like the others. Here's a hint:


Heighten Spell [Metamagic]

Ocular Spell [Metamagic]

Uncanny Forethought

Can you tell which of these things is not like the others? Here's another hint:


Versatile Spellcaster

So, please explain how a Major Creation cast with Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, but a Polymorph cast for two 3rd level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster is a 4th level spell.


Give me a rule citation that says only metamagic feats can modify spells so that its a valid target for Supernatural Spells and that nonmetamagic feats that modify spells cannot make a spell legal for Supernatural Spell.

That's not how the rules work. The burden of proof is on you to show that things are allowed. You have not done that, you have just expressed outrage that anyone could disagree with your claim that "Casting Time" is determined when spells are cast, unlike every other attribute of spells.


Versatile Spellcaster lets you use 2nd level spell slots to cast a 3rd level spell. How is this relevant? If you cast Fireball from a 9th level spell slot its still a 3rd level spell. Spell slots have no effect on spell level.

I agree. The spell slot you use on a spell does not change its level. You have to use Heighten Spell to do that. Similarly, the action you use to cast a spell does not change its Casting Time. newguydude and gogogome seem to find the latter unintuitive, but it's fundamentally the same thing. We're just all used to the former. But there's no principled distinction to be made between the two cases.

[Vaern]

You could use it to cast fabricate, and thus manifest free platinum for unlimited money! Screw that WBL!!!
It's debateable whether that works. The material component listed for the spell is effectively also the target, and the quality and value of the final product of the spell is determined by the materials consumed when casting the spell.
Since the material component cost of the spell is variable based on your intended effect, you can arguably already cast the spell with no material components without having to make it a supernatural ability or having to jump through epic-level loopholes. Using nothing as your material component will ultimately result in an item made of nothing. In the case of Fabricate in particular, it would be akin to activating an effect in Magic: The Gathering that allows you to cast a spell from your hand without paying its mana cost and choosing an X-cost card like Earthquake. When casting the spell for free in this way you may only pay 0 for the X cost, and any variables based on X are treated as 0.

[Melcar]

No, it didn't. Wish emulated Greater Planar Binding. At no point was Greater Planar Binding a valid target for Supernatural Spell, and at no point was Supernatural Spell used to target Greater Planar Binding. In fact, that example has nothing to do with Supernatural Spell in any specific sense.

All the effects Wish can or does create takes 1 standard action... because that is the casting time of wish. Nowhere in the description of wish does it say that emulating a spell, takes on the spell being emulated's casting time. Ergo, you can, subject to the limitations of wish, cast any spell of any casting time in 1 standard action, because that it the casting time of wish. It really is that powerful a spell. And since supernatural spell allows you to make any spell up to a standard action spell function as a supernatural ability you can use supernatural spell on wish!

[magicalmagicman]

I agree. The spell slot you use on a spell does not change its level. You have to use Heighten Spell to do that. Similarly, the action you use to cast a spell does not change its Casting Time. newguydude and gogogome seem to find the latter unintuitive, but it's fundamentally the same thing. We're just all used to the former. But there's no principled distinction to be made between the two cases.

You are making no sense here.

Uncanny Forethought modifies the casting time of a spell because it directly says it modifies the casting time of a spell.
Versatile Spellcaster doesn't modify the spell level of Fireball or Major Creation because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say it modifies the spell level.

How are the two related?

And for the record, I agree with everyone else in this thread except you. You are making no sense and you are incorrect on everything in this thread.

[gogogome]

Ok. I understand what the problem here is. You are misunderstanding quite a few number of rules here. I suggest you use google to research each and every thing I point out first before responding.



No, it didn't. Wish emulated Greater Planar Binding. At no point was Greater Planar Binding a valid target for Supernatural Spell, and at no point was Supernatural Spell used to target Greater Planar Binding. In fact, that example has nothing to do with Supernatural Spell in any specific sense.

Wrong... its 1 standard action!

Melcar is correct. When Wish, Miracle, Limited Wish, Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, etc. emulates a spell, it uses its own stats. It uses its own casting time. It uses its own material and xp components. It uses its own spell level including things for like Globe of Invulnerability.

Wish emulating Greater Planar Binding takes only a standard action, costs 5,000xp, and is treated as a 9th level spell.

So your whole basis that "Wish emulating Greater Planar Binding makes it illegal to be used for Supernatural Spell because the casting time would increase to 10minutes" is wrong.

You have conveniently picked and chose that Wish's component costs will remain while its casting time changes to Greater Planar Binding.

Let me remind you that the spell's effects are decided after the spell is fully cast. So you choose to emulate Greater Planar Binding after you finish casting Wish in its entirety.


You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.




So, please explain how a Major Creation cast with Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, but a Polymorph cast for two 3rd level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster is a 4th level spell.

As magicalmagicman has pointed out, there is no relationship with spell slot used and spell level. Using a 9th level spell slot to cast fireball does not result in a 9th level fireball. So Versatile Spellcaster proves nothing. It is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.

Why don't you explain why you think there is any chance a Polymorph cast for two 3rd level spell slots would be a 3rd level spell? Where is the rule that says using a different level spell slot modifies the spell level?




One of these things is not like the others. Here's a hint:

Can you tell which of these things is not like the others? Here's another hint:

You have failed to produce a rule that says only metamagic feats are allowed to modify spells for class features. Because there is no such rule.




That's not how the rules work. The burden of proof is on you to show that things are allowed. You have not done that, you have just expressed outrage that anyone could disagree with your claim that "Casting Time" is determined when spells are cast, unlike every other attribute of spells.

What?

Supernatural Spell says you decide to apply this class feature to a spell "at the moment of casting to use this ability."
"at the moment of casting to use this ability" the spell is a standard action thanks to Uncanny Forethought.

The burden of proof is on you because you're the one that says Supernatural Spell targets the spell's original unmodified casting time with absolutely no rule citation.

[NigelWalmsley]

And since supernatural spell allows you to make any spell up to a standard action spell function as a supernatural ability you can use supernatural spell on wish!

That sounds like you're agreeing with me. Supernatural Spell effected Wish (an unambiguously valid target). Wish produced the effect of Greater Planar Binding (I use the word emulate here). At no point was Greater Planar Binding a effected by Supernatural Spell.


Uncanny Forethought modifies the casting time of a spell because it directly says it modifies the casting time of a spell.

No, it doesn't. Seriously, it doesn't do that. Here's what it actually says:


As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat.
(Incidentally, if I was really rules-lawyering away things I didn't like, I would argue that this line just means that the standard action designates the slot, and then you cast the spell normally)

Compare that to Heighten Spell (which totally does modify spell levels):


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level).

You'll notice that it explicitly says that it has a "higher spell level than normal". It even contrasts that to normal metamagic feats which merely modify the slot it uses. This situation is exactly analogous to Uncanny Forethought. It modifies the slot/action but not the level/casting time.


You are making no sense and you are incorrect on everything in this thread.

You'll note that this is not an argument. It's not a rules citation that disagrees with me. It's not a hole in my logic. It's just you being disbelieving.


Ok. I understand what the problem here is. You are misunderstanding quite a few number of rules here. I suggest you use google to research each and every thing I point out first before responding.

If you can't be bothered to look up the rules yourself, I don't see why I should bother to argue about the rules with you.


So your whole basis that "Wish emulating Greater Planar Binding makes it illegal to be used for Supernatural Spell because the casting time would increase to 10minutes" is wrong.

I literally never said that. I said that a Greater Planar Binding duplicated by Wish had a casting time of ten minutes. The Wish (which you are actually casting) still has a casting time of 1 standard action, and is a valid target for Supernatural Spell.


As magicalmagicman has pointed out, there is no relationship with spell slot used and spell level.

Exactly. Using a different spell slot does not effect spell level unless you are using an effect that explicitly does effect spell level (e.g. Heighten Spell). So why does using a different action type effect Casting Time if you are not using an effect that explicitly says it does?

[magicalmagicman]

Exactly. Using a different spell slot does not effect spell level unless you are using an effect that explicitly does effect spell level (e.g. Heighten Spell). So why does using a different action type effect Casting Time if you are not using an effect that explicitly says it does?

I still don't understand what you are saying. You say all these nonsequitors, mix in with these poorly articulated points confusing everyone, and then repeat what everyone else has been saying.

If you're saying Wish doesn't modify the spell Greater Planar Binding, no one I repeat NO ONE in this thread said you could. So what was the point of bringing this up?
Also, no one I repeat NO ONE in this thread said using lower level spell slots effect spell level. So what was the point of bringing Versatile Spellcaster up?
And Heighten spell does NOT modify the spell. If you Heighten Greater Planar Binding to 9th level, the spell Greater Planar Binding is still 8th level and this new spell called Heightened Greater Planar Binding is 9th level. And how is this relevant? This is the exact same thing you are saying with your Wish example. wtf are you trying to say here? How is this relevant?


No, it doesn't. Seriously, it doesn't do that. Here's what it actually says:


(Incidentally, if I was really rules-lawyering away things I didn't like, I would argue that this line just means that the standard action designates the slot, and then you cast the spell normally)

Compare that to Heighten Spell (which totally does modify spell levels):

Now let me repeat what newguydude1 said

A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action.

As you see here, Rapid Spell, according to YOU, does NOT modify the casting time. It just lets you cast a full round spell as a standard action. Just like Uncanny Forethought lets you cast a spell mastery spell as a standard action.

Question 1: What is the casting time of a Rapid Permanency? Is it 1 round or 2 round?

[gogogome]

Supernatural Spell effected Wish (an unambiguously valid target). Wish produced the effect of Greater Planar Binding (I use the word emulate here). At no point was Greater Planar Binding a effected by Supernatural Spell.

Here he says Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a standard action casting time.


I said that a Greater Planar Binding duplicated by Wish had a casting time of ten minutes.

Here he says Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes.

I'm gonna just bow out of the conversation here. Can't make heads or tails out of anything he says.

[NigelWalmsley]

Also, no one I repeat NO ONE in this thread said using lower level spell slots effect spell level. So what was the point of bringing Versatile Spellcaster up?

The point is that your argument is inconsistent. Either the variables of a spell (e.g. Level, Casting Time, School, etc) are set by the spell, or they are set at casting. If they are set by the spell, a Major Creation cast via Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 minute (even though you cast it in a single standard action) and a Fireball cast via Versatile Spellcaster or in a higher level slot is still a 3rd level spell (even though you didn't expend a 3rd level spell slot to cast it). If they are set at the time of casting, a Major Creation cast via Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action and a Fireball cast via Versatile Spellcaster or in a higher level spell slot is whatever level of spell slot you expended for it. The rules say "set by the spell" for level. Do you have a citation where they say "set at time of casting" for the Casting Time?


And Heighten spell does NOT modify the spell. If you Heighten Greater Planar Binding to 9th level, the spell Greater Planar Binding is still 8th level and this new spell called Heightened Greater Planar Binding is 9th level.

What do you think happens if I cast Quickened Scorching Ray on someone with Spell Immunity choosing Scorching Ray? I think they're immune. But your model here would suggest that they are not immune, because Quickened Scorching Ray is a different spell from Scorching Ray. Do you have a rules citation to that effect? The rules on metamagic (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Metamagic_Feats) don't look to me like they say that, but maybe the rule is elsewhere.


As you see here, Rapid Spell, according to YOU, does NOT modify the casting time.

Actually, that's you quoting the rules text of Rapid Spell, which is saying that it does not modify the casting time of the spell, just let you cast it with a different action.


Question 1: What is the casting time of a Rapid Permanency? Is it 1 round or 2 round?

2 rounds, but it can be cast in one round due to Rapid Spell. Maybe that's not intuitive for you, but that doesn't make it not how the rules work. The fact that a Fireball cast from a 9th level spell slot is still a 3rd level spell isn't particularly intuitive either.

[NigelWalmsley]

Here he says Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a standard action casting time.

Yes.


Here he says Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes.

No, I didn't. That quote is very clearly talking about the casting time of Greater Planar Binding (you can tell, because it says "Greater Planar Binding duplicated by Wish had a casting time of ten minutes") and not "A Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes").

Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying, but from where I'm sitting it's hard to see how I could have been clearer.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Back on topic: Supernatural limited wish is an excellent way--the best way--to use extract gift. Safe from dispels--check. Avoid massive gp/XP cost--check. Get great boost to your casting ability--check.

[magicalmagicman]

I'm gonna handle this one at a time.


and a Fireball cast via Versatile Spellcaster or in a higher level spell slot is whatever level of spell slot you expended for it.

Why? Why is this the case?


Spell Slots

The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

The rules make no mention of spells having their spell level change because of their spell slot.

A spell's level is completely independent of the spell slot used. Using a higher level spell slot has nothing to do with the spell's stats. Absolutely nothing changes to a spell whether you use a 3rd level spell slot or a 9th level spell slot.

So if spells are set at the time of casting, why would a Fireball cast with a 9th level spell slot make it a 9th level spell? Why?

[NigelWalmsley]

Why? Why is this the case?

It's not the case. That's the point. But if your argument about Casting Times is correct, it should be the case. If spending a standard action to cast something means it has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, then spending a 9th level spell slot to cast it should mean that it is a 9th level spell. As you are correctly able to determine, the latter is not the case. So why is the former the case? Is there a rule that says that?

[magicalmagicman]

It's not the case. That's the point. But if your argument about Casting Times is correct, it should be the case. If spending a standard action to cast something means it has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, then spending a 9th level spell slot to cast it should mean that it is a 9th level spell. As you are correctly able to determine, the latter is not the case. So why is the former the case? Is there a rule that says that?

Why? Why would this be the case? Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell?

Let me try to make you understand what I'm seeing here.
You're saying apples are red and oranges are blue.
I tell you oranges are not blue.
You're saying That's the point!!!! Oranges are not blue!!! Therefore Apples are not Red!

Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell? 9th level spell slots are not exclusively used for 9th level spells. They're used for any level of spell. So why does the fact that you spent this resource mean if spells are set at the time of casting, fireballs have to be 9th level spells?

They are 3rd level even when spells are set at the time of casting.

[newguydude1]

Why? Why would this be the case? Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell?

Let me try to make you understand what I'm seeing here.
You're saying apples are red and oranges are blue.
I tell you oranges are not blue.
You're saying That's the point!!!! Oranges are not blue!!! Therefore Apples are not Red!

Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell? 9th level spell slots are not exclusively used for 9th level spells. They're used for any level of spell. So why does the fact that you spent this resource mean if spells are set at the time of casting, fireballs have to be 9th level spells?

They are 3rd level even when spells are set at the time of casting.

you select the 9th level spell slot to prepare a 3rd level fireball. therefore if you rule that spells are set at the time of casting, that 3rd level fireball jumps up to 9th level because you used a 9th level spell slot to prepare it.

i dont understand it either.

[NigelWalmsley]

Why? Why would this be the case? Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell?

Why does taking a standard action to cast it mean it has a Casting Time of 1 standard action? As far as I can tell, the reasoning from your side isn't anything like "the rules on page XX of the PHB say that", it's just "it doesn't make sense to me for it to not work that way". Whereas we can actually see plenty of examples that suggest that it doesn't work that way, regardless of how intuitive that is or isn't for you. Rapid Spell is probably the most obvious example. It mentions the casting time, then says "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action." (suggesting that Casting Time can be divorced from the action used to cast a spell) rather than "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round has a casting time of 1 standard action.".

Again, where is the rule that says you are right? Because absent a rule that says you are right, you are wrong. The rules only do the things they say they do. And Uncanny Forethought does not say it modifies the casting time. So unless you can find a rule that says it does, it doesn't. Even if you think that is stupid or confusing.

[magicalmagicman]

Why does taking a standard action to cast it mean it has a Casting Time of 1 standard action? As far as I can tell, the reasoning from your side isn't anything like "the rules on page XX of the PHB say that", it's just "it doesn't make sense to me for it to not work that way". Whereas we can actually see plenty of examples that suggest that it doesn't work that way, regardless of how intuitive that is or isn't for you. Rapid Spell is probably the most obvious example. It mentions the casting time, then says "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action." (suggesting that Casting Time can be divorced from the action used to cast a spell) rather than "A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round has a casting time of 1 standard action.".

Again, where is the rule that says you are right? Because absent a rule that says you are right, you are wrong. The rules only do the things they say they do. And Uncanny Forethought does not say it modifies the casting time. So unless you can find a rule that says it does, it doesn't. Even if you think that is stupid or confusing.

You haven't answered my question. Don't try to change the subject. You've been throwing this versatile spellcaster thing at all of us for a good while now and claiming that its fact. So explain. I told you I'm addressing one thing at a time.

There are two things we are "discussing" with you right now.
1. Are spells set by the spell or at the time of casting.
2. If spells are set at the time of casting, does Uncanny forethought change the casting time.

We are at 1. right now.

You said spells set at the time of casting is nonsense because: "if spells are set at the time of casting, a regular fireball prepared with a 9th level spell slot would be a 9th level spell at cast." So explain why would this be the case? If spells are set at the time of casting, why would a regular fireball prepared with a 9th level spell slot be a 9th level spell?

Either admit that you were completely wrong and this is nonsense so we can move on to 2, or explain why would a regular fireball prepared with a 9th level spell slot be a 9th level spell if spells are set at the time of casting.

There's gotta be a reason you thought this so tell us the reason.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why? Why would this be the case? Why does spending a 9th level spell slot to cast mean that its a 9th level spell?
You're misunderstanding the point. NigelWalmsley is drawing a parallel.

Casting a spell from a higher-level slot does not change the spell level; the value listed in the spell's description still applies.
By analogy, casting a spell in less time (or more time) than listed in the spell description does not change the casting time of the spell. It's still the value laid down in the spell description.
By further analogies, casting a spell with greater range, more targets, longer duration, and so on, doesn't change the spell's original values for those parameters, unless the ability granting that effect says it does so.

Heighten Spell, Sculpt Spell, Ocular Spell--they all specify that they're changing a spell parameter. Elder Giant Magic, too.
By contrast, the Spellguard ability doesn't--you may "cast any personal-range defensive arcane spell on another character with a touch", but it doesn't become a touch spell (Arcane Reach has the same problem).
(This also means that Spellguard and Arcane Reach don't work together, nor does Arcane Reach work with Persistent Spell.)

As you can see, it's kinda tricky, and I'm honestly not fond of the level of hair-splitting or the consequences, but the argument behind it makes sense.

Note that Uncanny Forethought is different from wish here. Wish has a standard action casting time no matter what, and emulates a spell (inheriting range, targets, duration, etcetera). It's kind of like getting a planar binding-shaped wish.
Uncanny Forethought does not have a standard action casting time (it's not a spell), and doesn't emulate a spell at all--it lets you cast the spell. It's more like getting a standard-action full attack.

The question is whether the standard action activation includes casting the spell (I think it does), and whether the fact that a spell was cast using one standard action makes it a spell with a casting time of one standard action (I think it doesn't, but note my conclusion below), and then whether Supernatural Spell cares about the casting time or the time spent casting (I think it's the former).

Conclusion: A good number of abilities don't specify that they're changing spell parameters when they're clearly doing something very similar to changing spell parameters. I think the best way to treat these cases--setting aside pure RAW for a moment--is similar to treating "virtual feats" for prerequisites. Masters of the Wild, page 20:

If a character has a class feature or special ability that exactly duplicates the effects of a feat, then he or she can use that “virtual feat” as a prerequisite for other feats, as well as prestige classes, and so forth. [...] If the character ever loses the virtual prerequisite, he or she also loses access to any feats or other benefits acquired through its existence. For example, a ranger who wears armor heavier than light loses access to the virtual feats noted above, and thereby to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as well. Acquiring a virtual feat does not give a character access to its prerequisites.
That is, an ability that does what changing a spell parameter would do qualifies as changing the parameter for other abilities/effects/whatevers that care about such things.

tl;dr: By analogy, let's not split hairs.

[NigelWalmsley]

You're misunderstanding the point. NigelWalmsley is drawing a parallel.

Thank you. I'm not saying either the 9th level slot thing or the Versatile Spellcaster thing are how the rules work. I'm saying that if the rules worked as is being claimed for Casting Times, that would imply that those things work. In my view, every time someone angrily insists that those things do not work that way, they are strengthening my argument.


As you can see, it's kinda tricky, and I'm honestly not fond of the level of hair-splitting or the consequences, but the argument behind it makes sense.

Frankly, neither am I. In any actual game, I would just ban Uncanny Forethought because it takes away the only meaningful advantage spontaneous spellcasters have. But I think if you are going to talk about RAW, it behooves you to be as strict, hair-splitting, and pedantic as possible. To do otherwise does a disservice to the notion of RAW. You either accept the rules as written, whatever the consequences of that are, or you don't. The middle ground where you demand that the rules be modified to match your intuitions is unsustainable. And, in my view, unhelpful. If you are going to modify the rules, you should sit down and think about what the desired result is, then impose that regardless of what the books say. "The most reasonable thing I can imagine the rules being" has neither the authority of RAW nor the utility of fixing things.

[magicalmagicman]

Casting a spell from a higher-level slot does not change the spell level; the value listed in the spell's description still applies.

You misunderstood what hes saying.

He is saying this is true ONLY if spells are set by spell. If spells are set at time of casting, the fireball's level would go up to 9.

So I'm asking, if spells are set at time of casting, why would it go up to 9th level when it won't if spells are set by spell? This is his main argument as to why spells are set by spell and not at the time of casting.


By analogy, casting a spell in less time (or more time) than listed in the spell description does not change the casting time of the spell. It's still the value laid down in the spell description.
By further analogies, casting a spell with greater range, more targets, longer duration, and so on, doesn't change the spell's original values for those parameters, unless the ability granting that effect says it does so.

Heighten Spell, Sculpt Spell, Ocular Spell--they all specify that they're changing a spell parameter.
By contrast, the Spellguard ability doesn't--you may "cast any personal-range defensive arcane spell on another character with a touch", but it doesn't become a touch spell (Arcane Reach has the same problem).
(This also means that Spellguard and Arcane Reach don't work together, nor does Arcane Reach work with Persistent Spell.)

As you can see, it's kinda tricky, and I'm honestly not fond of the level of hair-splitting or the consequences, but the argument behind it makes sense.

I understand this argument. I thought this was what we were discussing before I joined in, but NigelWalmsley countered gogogome's and newguydude1's arguments with the Versatile Spellcaster thing .

He didn't say metamagic modifies spell parameters and other things don't. He said metamagic modifies the spell directly itself because its a metamagic feat, and that other things that do modify spell parameters don't actually modify the spell parameters because they are a general feat. And then he said Versatile Spellcaster is proof.

So before (or at least me, other posters dropped out) get into this I need to do things one argument at a time because NigelWalmsley is currently claiming these nonsensical parallels are "proof" for the more valid arguments. So we need to shoot em all down.


Note that Uncanny Forethought is different from wish here. Wish has a standard action casting time no matter what, and emulates a spell (inheriting range, targets, duration, etcetera). It's kind of like getting a planar binding-shaped wish.
Uncanny Forethought does not have a standard action casting time (it's not a spell), and doesn't emulate a spell at all--it lets you cast the spell. It's more like getting a standard-action full attack.

The question is whether the standard action activation includes casting the spell (I think it does), and whether the fact that a spell was cast using one standard action makes it a spell with a casting time of one standard action (I think it doesn't, but note my conclusion below), and then whether Supernatural Spell cares about the casting time or the time spent casting (I think it's the former).

Conclusion: A good number of abilities don't specify that they're changing spell parameters when they're clearly doing something very similar to changing spell parameters. I think the best way to treat these cases--setting aside pure RAW for a moment--is similar to treating "virtual feats" for prerequisites. Masters of the Wild, page 20:

That is, an ability that does what changing a spell parameter would do qualifies as changing the parameter for other abilities/effects/whatevers that care about such things.

tl;dr: By analogy, let's not split hairs.


P.S. An interesting case is the interaction between Elder Giant Magic and Supernatural Spell. EGM lets you spend additional rounds casting a spell to boost CL, but under Nigel's interpretation, you can still make such a spell supernatural, since the casting time hasn't changed.

So gogogome's argument (I think) and mine is you can't have two casting times. If you're casting a 1 hour spell as a standard action, then the casting time of the spell your casting is a standard action and you follow all the rules for that, like how many actions you need to expend, how many attacks of opportunity you provoke, and whether you can use things that only work on standard actions like casting during a grapple.


Thank you. I'm not saying either the 9th level slot thing or the Versatile Spellcaster thing are how the rules work. I'm saying that if the rules worked as is being claimed for Casting Times, that would imply that those things work. In my view, every time someone angrily insists that those things do not work that way, they are strengthening my argument.

Do you want me to quote exactly where you said "Spells are set by Spell and not at cast because fireball's level would jump up to 9?"

Don't pass someone else's argument as your own.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Frankly, neither am I. In any actual game, I would just ban Uncanny Forethought because it takes away the only meaningful advantage spontaneous spellcasters have. But I think if you are going to talk about RAW, it behooves you to be as strict, hair-splitting, and pedantic as possible. To do otherwise does a disservice to the notion of RAW. You either accept the rules as written, whatever the consequences of that are, or you don't. The middle ground where you demand that the rules be modified to match your intuitions is unsustainable. And, in my view, unhelpful. If you are going to modify the rules, you should sit down and think about what the desired result is, then impose that regardless of what the books say. "The most reasonable thing I can imagine the rules being" has neither the authority of RAW nor the utility of fixing things.
I agree completely. Hair-splitting first, and if you arrive at an unworkable conclusion, apply your fixes out in the open and show your work.


Edit:
So gogogome's argument (I think) and mine is you can't have two casting times.
You don't have two casting times. You have "Casting Time: 10 minutes", and "time spent casting--one standard action". They're not the same thing.

[Anthrowhale]

This doesn't work.
I've seen the argument that the time to cast is not the casting time previously. I don't expect you'll convince anyone as it tortures english to much.

Then take some other action. The specific defense doesn't matter.
It does matter whether or not there exists an action.

You cannot share a space with a hostile creature within (I believe) 2 size categories of yourself,
Rules Compendium has rules directly addressing sharing of space by incorporeal and corporeal creatures.

Back on topic: Supernatural limited wish is an excellent way--the best way--to use extract gift. Safe from dispels--check. Avoid massive gp/XP cost--check. Get great boost to your casting ability--check.
More generally, using it for any permanent duration spell would be particularly useful.

[newguydude1]

Thank you. I'm not saying either the 9th level slot thing or the Versatile Spellcaster thing are how the rules work. I'm saying that if the rules worked as is being claimed for Casting Times, that would imply that those things work. In my view, every time someone angrily insists that those things do not work that way, they are strengthening my argument.


Do you want me to quote exactly where you said "Spells are set by Spell and not at cast because fireball's level would jump up to 9?"

Don't pass someone else's argument as your own.

this pisses me off so ill do it for you.


The point is that your argument is inconsistent. Either the variables of a spell (e.g. Level, Casting Time, School, etc) are set by the spell, or they are set at casting. If they are set by the spell, a Major Creation cast via Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 minute (even though you cast it in a single standard action) and a Fireball cast via Versatile Spellcaster or in a higher level slot is still a 3rd level spell (even though you didn't expend a 3rd level spell slot to cast it). If they are set at the time of casting, a Major Creation cast via Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action and a Fireball cast via Versatile Spellcaster or in a higher level spell slot is whatever level of spell slot you expended for it. The rules say "set by the spell" for level. Do you have a citation where they say "set at time of casting" for the Casting Time?

here he says if spells are set at the time of casting fireball is 9th level.


So, please explain how a Major Creation cast with Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, but a Polymorph cast for two 3rd level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster is a 4th level spell.

here he says if spells are set at casting, polymorph would be 3rd level instead of 4th level.


You're misunderstanding the point. NigelWalmsley is drawing a parallel.

Casting a spell from a higher-level slot does not change the spell level; the value listed in the spell's description still applies.
By analogy, casting a spell in less time (or more time) than listed in the spell description does not change the casting time of the spell. It's still the value laid down in the spell description.
By further analogies, casting a spell with greater range, more targets, longer duration, and so on, doesn't change the spell's original values for those parameters, unless the ability granting that effect says it does so.

here.... is ExLibrisMortis saying spells are set by spell or at time of casting?

ExLibrisMortis is saying neither. he doesnt even mention when spells are set.

what he and you are saying is completely different. so dont try to claim that you were the rational one instead of the incredibly defensive one and we are the bad guys trying to make sense of what you were saying.

[gogogome]

You're misunderstanding the point. NigelWalmsley is drawing a parallel.

Casting a spell from a higher-level slot does not change the spell level; the value listed in the spell's description still applies.
By analogy, casting a spell in less time (or more time) than listed in the spell description does not change the casting time of the spell. It's still the value laid down in the spell description.
By further analogies, casting a spell with greater range, more targets, longer duration, and so on, doesn't change the spell's original values for those parameters, unless the ability granting that effect says it does so.


Either the variables of a spell (e.g. Level, Casting Time, School, etc) are set by the spell, or they are set at casting.
...
Versatile Spellcaster.

What your saying is a valid point worth arguing but it is not what NigelWalmsley has been saying.


Thank you. I'm not saying either the 9th level slot thing or the Versatile Spellcaster thing are how the rules work. I'm saying that if the rules worked as is being claimed for Casting Times, that would imply that those things work. In my view, every time someone angrily insists that those things do not work that way, they are strengthening my argument.



Frankly, neither am I. In any actual game, I would just ban Uncanny Forethought because it takes away the only meaningful advantage spontaneous spellcasters have. But I think if you are going to talk about RAW, it behooves you to be as strict, hair-splitting, and pedantic as possible. To do otherwise does a disservice to the notion of RAW. You either accept the rules as written, whatever the consequences of that are, or you don't. The middle ground where you demand that the rules be modified to match your intuitions is unsustainable. And, in my view, unhelpful. If you are going to modify the rules, you should sit down and think about what the desired result is, then impose that regardless of what the books say. "The most reasonable thing I can imagine the rules being" has neither the authority of RAW nor the utility of fixing things.

...

I'm still waiting for you to explain why if spells are set at time of casting fireball would jump up to 9th level.

The only one angry about the topic is you. I was trying to have a real discussion about the topic matter but instead I was treated to you claiming things as true without any rule citations (still waiting for the rule where only metamagics can change spell parameters) and then calling everyone who disagreed with you and pointed out your nonsense as "raging".

This does rub me the wrong way.

So after throwing nothing but blind claims with no rules citation to support your claims and then passing the buck to us, then claiming another's argument as your own, and then claiming the high ground, I'm sorry, I gotta go.

[Melcar]

I literally never said that. I said that a Greater Planar Binding duplicated by Wish had a casting time of ten minutes. The Wish (which you are actually casting) still has a casting time of 1 standard action, and is a valid target for Supernatural Spell.

But that’s incorrect! If you cast wish, everything wish can do only takes one standard action! End of story!!!

You don’t use a standard action to cast wish and then afterwards use 10 min to cast greater planar binding! It’s all done in one standard action! And all done in one spell!



No, I didn't. That quote is very clearly talking about the casting time of Greater Planar Binding (you can tell, because it says "Greater Planar Binding duplicated by Wish had a casting time of ten minutes") and not "A Wish duplicating Greater Planar Binding has a casting time of 10 minutes").

How is that not the same thing? At this point it seems like you are simply trolling people here!?

[newguydude1]

In my view, every time someone angrily insists that those things do not work that way, they are strengthening my argument.

(still waiting for the rule where only metamagics can change spell parameters)

You could get around this with metamagic, but Uncanny Forethought isn't a metamagic feat.

One of these things is not like the others. Here's a hint:





Can you tell which of these things is not like the others? Here's another hint:



So, please explain how a Major Creation cast with Uncanny Forethought has a Casting Time of 1 standard action, but a Polymorph cast for two 3rd level spell slots with Versatile Spellcaster is a 4th level spell.



Give me a rule citation that says only metamagic feats can modify spells so that its a valid target for Supernatural Spells and that nonmetamagic feats that modify spells cannot make a spell legal for Supernatural Spell.

That's not how the rules work. The burden of proof is on you to show that things are allowed. You have not done that, you have just expressed outrage that anyone could disagree with your claim that "Casting Time" is determined when spells are cast, unlike every other attribute of spells.



who is the one that is angrily insisting it doesnt work that way? who is the one showing outrage?

the guy who made up a rule that only metamagic can change spell paramemters. and saying the burden of proof is on the one asking for the rule that only metamagic can change spell parameters and then demanding we provide him with a rule citation that nonmetamagic feats can change spell parameters.

or the guys who just ask you to give us the rule that only metamagic can change spell parameters.

im showing outrage at your comment that we are the ones showing outrage for your blind claims. im not outraged at the topic and probably will talk to exlibrismortis some more.

[NigelWalmsley]

Y'all have lost the ball. My position is that these values (Level, Casting Time, School) are set by the spell. That doesn't mean they can't be set by something else, but it does mean that other things have to say they set them. What Heighten Spell or Ocular Spell or whatever says is actually irrelevant. What matters is what Uncanny Forethought says (or doesn't say). And what it doesn't say is that it sets the "Casting Time" value.

I don't understand what's so confusing about the "set at casting time" thing either. It's a basic proof by contradiction. Your position, as far as I can tell, is that these values (Level, Casting Time, School, whatever) are set when the spell is cast. Hence arguing that spending a standard action to cast a spell gives it a Casting Time of 1 standard action. That implies that spending a 9th level spell slot to cast a spell makes it a 9th level spell. That is false. Since the conclusion is false, one of the premises must be false. The premises are "your argument" and "Level and Casting Time are treated the same". So you need to produce a citation that says Casting Time is treated differently, or your argument is false. All this stuff insisting that I didn't make arguments I definitely made is a waste of time.

So: where is the rule that says Casting Time is set by the action used to cast the spell? Is it in the Player's Handbook? Is it in one of the books that introduced Swift or Immediate actions? Is it in the Rules Compendium? It has to be somewhere, or it is not the rule. And if it isn't the rule, Uncanny Forethought doesn't let you use Supernatural Spell on Major Creation. That's the bottom line.


You don't have two casting times. You have "Casting Time: 10 minutes", and "time spent casting--one standard action". They're not the same thing.

Again, exactly. By parallel, when you cast a Fireball out of a 9th level spell slot, it doesn't have two levels (3rd and 9th). It has one level: 3rd. Ditto with Versatile Spellcaster (albeit in reverse). The point I'm making (which doesn't seem to be getting through) is that the model where spells set Casting Time or Level or whatever based on what you did to cast them is not consistent with the rules. The rules say that a spell's level is it's level unless explicitly modified (by e.g. Heighten Spell). Similarly, the rules say that changing the time spent casting a spell (by e.g. Rapid Spell) does not change its casting time. Or at least, no one has presented a rule that says it does.

To be clear, if someone can present that rule, I will happily change my mind. But the fact that we've been doing this for two pages and no one has doesn't make me optimistic.


I've seen the argument that the time to cast is not the casting time previously. I don't expect you'll convince anyone as it tortures english to much.

Oh, I fully expect that I won't persuade anyone. No one is persuaded by internet arguments. Doesn't make the other side any less wrong.


But that’s incorrect! If you cast wish, everything wish can do only takes one standard action! End of story!!!

Again, you are agreeing with me. I'm not saying the spell takes longer to cast. I'm saying it has a longer casting time. Which, admittedly, is irrelevant, on account of it not using that casting time. But if you consider a different trait (like how Greater Planar Binding gets tags based on what you bind), that would be preserved. At least, that's my interpretation of how the duplication works. You could also argue that Wish takes on the traits of the spell, but that would make it irrelevant to the topic, as Greater Planar Binding is never cast at all in that model.

[magicalmagicman]

You don't have two casting times. You have "Casting Time: 10 minutes", and "time spent casting--one standard action". They're not the same thing.

Ok, so we have this rule


Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

So if we go by your interpretation, we cannot use Uncanny Forethought to cast a 10minute casting time spell as a standard action during a grapple. Am I correct on your position?

My position is, there is no such thing as "time spent casting". There is only one term: "casting time". Every single thing in the game only uses casting time, so if a spell is to be cast after a certain amount of time, that time is "casting time" regardless of whether a feat description explicitly says the term out by name. So if something says "you can cast this spell as a standard action", its saying the casting time is reduced to standard. Because that is the only way it can work mechanically.

You start saying you can cast spells without a casting time but with some other thing, the whole system will fall apart.

[NigelWalmsley]

So if we go by your interpretation, we cannot use Uncanny Forethought to cast a 10minute casting time spell as a standard action during a grapple. Am I correct on your position?

It's not an "interpretation". The rules don't say it does that. Therefore it doesn't do that. Just like it's not an "interpretation" that 3rd level Bards don't gain Divine Ranks. The rules don't say they do, so they don't.


My position is, there is no such thing as "time spent casting". There is only one term: "casting time".

Then why does Rapid Spell say this:


A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round can be cast as a standard action.

Instead of this:


A rapid spell with a casting time of 1 full round has a casting time of 1 standard action.

Rapid Spell is very clearly not modifying Casting Time. So is Rapid Spell dysfunctional, or are "casting time" and "time to cast" different things, stupid or confusing as that may be?


the guy who made up a rule that only metamagic can change spell paramemters.

That's not what I said. That may have been what you understood, and my quotes could have been clearer, but it's actually irrelevant. Because whether there's a rule about what can change spell parameters or not, Uncanny Forethought doesn't say it changes the casting time. It says "As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat." The phrase "Casting Time" is nowhere in its text. So where is the general rule that says Casting Time is set by the action spent to cast a spell?

[ExLibrisMortis]

So if we go by your interpretation, we cannot use Uncanny Forethought to cast a 10minute casting time spell as a standard action during a grapple. Am I correct on your position?
My position is somewhat more nuanced than that, as per this quote:

Conclusion: A good number of abilities don't specify that they're changing spell parameters when they're clearly doing something very similar to changing spell parameters. I think the best way to treat these cases--setting aside pure RAW for a moment--is similar to treating "virtual feats" for prerequisites. Masters of the Wild, page 20:

If a character has a class feature or special ability that exactly duplicates the effects of a feat, then he or she can use that “virtual feat” as a prerequisite for other feats, as well as prestige classes, and so forth. [...] If the character ever loses the virtual prerequisite, he or she also loses access to any feats or other benefits acquired through its existence. For example, a ranger who wears armor heavier than light loses access to the virtual feats noted above, and thereby to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as well. Acquiring a virtual feat does not give a character access to its prerequisites.
That is, an ability that does what changing a spell parameter would do qualifies as changing the parameter for other abilities/effects/whatevers that care about such things.

tl;dr: By analogy, let's not split hairs.
So while I do not support using RAW in this case (for various reasons), I do think that it follows from RAW that you cannot use Uncanny Forethought to cast a spell with a casting time greater than a standard action in a grapple. If the rule instead said something like "as long as you can cast it with one standard action or less", then you could, as there would be no reference to the specific game term "casting time".


I think it would be for the best if we left this discussion to rest, for a day or two at least. The main point of disagreement results from a close reading of pure RAW, which we aren't strictly speaking interested in anyway, as this is intended to be a compilation thread. If anyone wants to share a Dweomerkeeper trick, they can identify contentious interpretations as required, and future readers can decide for themselves which tricks are usable under their personal interpretation. In other words: there is room for more than one interpretation in a compilation thread.

[magicalmagicman]

I think it would be for the best if we left this discussion to rest, for a day or two at least. The main point of disagreement results from a close reading of pure RAW, which we aren't strictly speaking interested in anyway, as this is intended to be a compilation thread. If anyone wants to share a Dweomerkeeper trick, they can identify contentious interpretations as required, and future readers can decide for themselves which tricks are usable under their personal interpretation. In other words: there is room for more than one interpretation in a compilation thread.

Fair enough. I'll stop posting after this. I've been wanting to say this all day so by golly i'll say it before I leave.

In my opinion by RAW, and RAW only,


casting time: The time required to cast a spell, usually either 1 standard action, 1 round, or 1 free action. Spells with casting times longer than 1 round require full-round actions for all the rounds encompassed in the casting time.

So if anything modifies the time required to cast a spell, aka Rapid Spell and Uncanny Forethought, it modifies casting time even if it doesn't say the term by name.

If the feat said "the time required to cast a spell selected by spell mastery is a standard action." It still would reduce casting time to a standard action instead of creating a new term called "time spent casting".

Likewise if the feat says you can cast a spell with a standard action. By RAW its still modifying casting time.

You get my view right? Time it takes to cast a spell is casting time no matter what or how you describe it. And if it is reduced to a standard action then by RAW its modifying casting time. Regardless of whether the feat says "casting time".

And Rapid Spell specifically and explicitly says you can quicken a rapid spell if you get it down to a standard action. So by RAW, in my opinion, my view is right.

[NigelWalmsley]

And Rapid Spell specifically and explicitly says you can quicken a rapid spell if you get it down to a standard action. So by RAW, in my opinion, my view is right.

Actually, that makes you wrong. Because if it was really changing the Casting Time, it wouldn't need to say that.

[newguydude1]

Actually, that makes you wrong. Because if it was really changing the Casting Time, it wouldn't need to say that.


Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

so i guess if it werent for this we could have applied quicken spell to all sorcerer cast spells. since special sections never repeat obvious or relevant rule interactions and only exceptions.

[YellowJohn]

so i guess if it werent for this we could have applied quicken spell to all sorcerer cast spells. since special sections never repeat obvious or relevant rule interactions and only exceptions.

Maybe we could have.
If you try to apply Quicken Spell to a Spontaneously cast spell, you've got one effect trying to reduce the casting time & one trying to increase it. If not for the passage you quoted, it's not immediately obvious which wins out.