Is Oona to Thog as Tarquin is to Nale and Hel to Tsukiko?

[PontificatusRex]

I've noticed there seems to be a progression in villains, where we leave behind an early character and a more dangerous character of very similar type and narrative function takes their place. This is not saying RB is uncreative or unoriginal or anything, it's just an interesting evolution.

Oona is a dangerous melee fighter, an evil humanoid, who speaks in a funny, idiosyncratic manner that often mixes simple vocabulary with complicated concepts. Despite being evil, she has an endearing innocent quality and she loves animals. In other words, very similar to Thog - and she has a lot of the funny lines that formerly would have gone to the MITD, but now that he's matured so much it's Oona who has that function on Team Evil. But she's more competent and more interesting than Thog by far - smart, with more abilities than just hitting things, and instead of liking puppies she has her own pet monsters.

Hel is an angry goth teenager despite being a goddess - you can see that in the interactions between her and Loki. Tsukio was obsessed with the undead, Hel is their queen. They both want more from their servants than said servants are capable of - Hel's line "If it loved me it would replicate faster!" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html) kind of inspired this whole thought process, actually. Tsukiko had her unrequited crush on Xykon, whereas Hel has Thrym hanging on her heels with an requited crush on her. And of course among the goth fashion scene black is the norm, but all white is a common color scheme as well.

A lot has been written about Tarquin being the grown up, more dangerous version of Nale, i don't think that needs to be rehashed here.

I expect there are other examples out there, curious hear other folks' thoughts.

[Morquard]

Interesting take. I had not thought about that, but now that you mention it, I can see it somewhat, yes.

[The Pilgrim]

I've noticed there seems to be a progression in villains, where we leave behind an early character and a more dangerous character of very similar type and narrative function takes their place. This is not saying RB is uncreative or unoriginal or anything, it's just an interesting evolution.

Well, there is a limited number of character archetipes you can work with. So as the story progresses and new villains appear, The Giant ends up giving them traits that have already been used in past characters, with the benefit of those character concepts having been already proved as working.

As the story has become more complex, and The Giant has evolved as a writer, so have his characters.

I'd expand your list with Miko and Gin-Jun.

[Malloon]

Hm, yes, I can see it. What is interesting is that none of the characters really replaced their counterpart, as would be the cliché, but rather they were put in situations the first character never could have been in in the story (Thog working together with RC and Xykon, Nale having succeeded, Tsuikiko being the main villain for an arc). I wonder how the Giant's annoyance at the popularity of Thog and Tarquin played into his crafting of Oona, her being another Evil but fun character.

[Matt4]

I'm not sure Hel and Tsukiko are that similar, but yeah I thought the same thing about Oona and Thog (and the more obvious Tarquin/Nale).

[dancrilis]

I wonder how the Giant's annoyance at the popularity of Thog and Tarquin played into his crafting of Oona, her being another Evil but fun character.


Because I love writing Thog. He's a comedy goldmine and can make any scene funnier just be being involved.

...
What I found odd was that people tried to claim that he was not Evil because he was lovable. I don't understand that. I've never understood the need of some people to rationalize that a character they like is somehow less Evil just because they like them. Thog is Evil; Thog is lovable. Those two facts do not need to be in opposition. I don't understand treating his lovability as overriding his Evilness, nor his Evilness overriding his lovability. Because he's a fictional character and it's not necessary that we pass a binding absolute judgment on how we feel about him. We can simultaneously appreciate his comedy in this corner of our brain while condemning his evil in that corner.

I suspect that when the Giant writes a character that gains populatity with the fan base he considers it a job well done - not an annoyance.

[WanderingMist]

I suspect that when the Giant writes a character that gains populatity with the fan base he considers it a job well done - not an annoyance.

Thog is Evil and lovable. But Thog is most decidedly not nice and actively takes the chance to hurt things when presented to him, even if it's not necessary.

[CriticalFailure]

Was he actually annoyed at people liking Thog and Tarquin? I highly doubt it, given that fans embracing funny evil characters is a well established phenomenon and writers generally write entertaining characters because people enjoy reading them. I could see him being annoyed at people going on his own website to post whiny nerdrage about why Tarquin is ackshully supposed to be perfect and infallible, but that's a rather different kettle of fish.

[Fyraltari]

I can see your case for Oona/Thog and of course Nale/Tarquin (Though Ind say that Nale is more Roy’s evil counterpart while Thog/Tarquin are Elan’s) but I think Hel/Tsukiko is a stretch.

[Lex]

I really don't see so much similarities between Hel and Tsukiko, but yeah, Thor and Oona share some traits and it's entirely plausible that Rich took inspiration from the former for the latter. Nale and Tarquin, yeah, that's obvious.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thor and Oona share some traits I disagree.

1. Oona is not stupid. (We have discussed this before). She merely speaks in an indiosyncratic manner (you could say she speaks with an accent).
2. Oona seems to be a leader in her tribe of bugbears. Thog couldn't lead a dog to food.
3. Oona isn't a comedy sidekick (as Thog was) but she does have a comedy sidekick in Greyview.

[Precure]

Hel and Tsukiko? I don't think so, they're pretty different and played different roles in the plot, despite of some superficial similarities. Tarquin is more like an evil version of Elan more so than Nale's replacement. I agree with Thog and Oona: Both are pretty evil despite of how affable they look at first, both are pretty dumb despite of their skills, both are number threes of their respective evil teams.

[Metastachydium]

I agree with Thog and Oona: Both are pretty evil despite of how affable they look at first,
Indeed (although some would sure beg to disagree).

both are pretty dumb despite of their skills,
Come again?

both are number threes of their respective evil teams.
I would not say Thog is the number three of the Linears; during Z's absence he is the third most important core member of the group for sure, but that's third out of three.

[Ionathus]

I disagree.

1. Oona is not stupid. (We have discussed this before). She merely speaks in an indiosyncratic manner (you could say she speaks with an accent).
2. Oona seems to be a leader in her tribe of bugbears. Thog couldn't lead a dog to food.
3. Oona isn't a comedy sidekick (as Thog was) but she does have a comedy sidekick in Greyview.

There's no rubric for whether or not two characters are similar. Oona doesn't have to be stupid (note: the OP never said she was), nor does she have to be bad at leadership, to be reminiscent of Thog. Both Oona and Thog are affably evil, have idiosyncratic speech patterns, use a mixture of Buffy Speak and highly sophisticated words, and are big & strong monstrous humanoids. Personally, that's all I need to see in order to make a comparison. It doesn't have to be a judgment on either character -- it can just be something you noticed.

OP, I appreciate you pointing this out -- it's made each character more interesting to see the parallels you drew! While I couldn't say whether Rich did these intentionally (except Tarquin/Nale), it's still fun to look at how a story evolves and what tropes & leitmotifs keep getting recycled from old characters to newer ones.

I also agree with the assessment that the "more dangerous/intelligent" piece is probably just a natural result of the heroes being further in the story and facing scarier threats.

EDIT:

I would not say Thog is the number three of the Linears; during Z's absence he is the third most important core member of the group for sure, but that's third out of three.

I'd definitely say he's the 3rd of the original Linear Guild. We get plenty more Nale/Sabine/Thog scenes than with anyone else, in Cliffport and Azure City and even supplemental materials, up until his (possible) death when the Linear Guild pairs up with the Vector Legion and becomes something unrecognizable.

[Metastachydium]

I'd definitely say he's the 3rd of the original Linear Guild. We get plenty more Nale/Sabine/Thog scenes than with anyone else, in Cliffport and Azure City and even supplemental materials, up until his (possible) death when the Linear Guild pairs up with the Vector Legion and becomes something unrecognizable.

Yeah, that's about right; what I mean is, however, that he does not outrank other members as Nale or Sabine do (i.e. he's not number three the way Sabine is number two).

[KorvinStarmast]

Both Oona and Thog are affably evil, Oona being Evil is an opinion, not a fact. I noticed a rather disturbing pattern of tunnel vision in that thread and no longer waste time in it. I've seen this movie before, and life's too short. If she comes across to you as evil, that's fine to be sure.

Put another way:
Thog is Word of Giant Evil. Ooona? Not as far as I have seen him comment. If you have evidence of Word of Giant on that, please provide a link to Rich's words on the topic.

Put into D&D terms:
you can have a party of three evil characters and two neutral characters and that party can work swimmingly.

[Lethologica]

Affable antagonist, then. And one half of a regular comedy duo.

[Ionathus]

Oona being Evil is an opinion, not a fact. I noticed a rather disturbing pattern of tunnel vision in that thread and no longer waste time in it. I've seen this movie before, and life's too short. If she comes across to you as evil, that's fine to be sure.

Put another way:
Thog is Word of Giant Evil. Ooona? Not as far as I have seen him comment. If you have evidence of Word of Giant on that, please provide a link to Rich's words on the topic.

Put into D&D terms:
you can have a party of three evil characters and two neutral characters and that party can work swimmingly.


Affable antagonist, then. And one half of a regular comedy duo.

What Lethologica said!

Even if you dispute her alignment, she's still a charming & polite person willingly serving the main villains' goals. The comparison still works. At least to some of us.

I don't understand why you're disagreeing with one of these statements, and therefore claiming the entire comparison is invalid for other readers.

If she doesn't remind you of Thog that's fine, but she reminds other people of him. When my friend says "hey that guy looks like Brad Pitt," even if I don't see it myself, I don't go out of my way to challenge her on it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not sure if this came across they way I heard it in my head as I typed it:

If she comes across to you as evil, that's fine to be sure.
Opinions are like navels, we all have one. :smallcool:
My core disagreement is to characterizations of Oona as stupid - there is no evidence of that. One of Thog's striking characteristics was/is low, to very low, INT

@Lethologica
Affable antagonist, then. And one half of a regular comedy duo.

Nicely done. :smallsmile:

[Worldsong]

So far as I can tell Precursor is the only one pushing the idea that Oona is dumb. Everybody else just thinks she's got the funny talking and the comedy.

[Precure]

When I said number three, I meant it in a narrative sense, not as a rank-and-file fashion, which not even Oona follows.


So far as I can tell Precursor is the only one pushing the idea that Oona is dumb. Everybody else just thinks she's got the funny talking and the comedy.

Who's Precursor?

[Worldsong]

Who's Precursor?

You but with a pointy hat.
Look, names are hard.

[Ionathus]

My core disagreement is to characterizations of Oona as stupid - there is no evidence of that. One of Thog's striking characteristics was/is low, to very low, INT

You and I agree on that. I never said that Oona was dumb -- and neither did the original poster!

[Morty]

I don't see much of a connection between Tsukiko and Hel, either. Both are... female villains with a death theme, but that's really not much. Hel was an existential threat that would have successfully led to the world being destroyed and taken over the Northern Pantheon afterwards if not for the Order. Tsukiko was hopelessly in over her head all the time and Redcloak disposed of her when she pushed too far. Tsukiko was also pretty delusional about the undead, whereas Hel is angry, spiteful and arrogant, but had a multi-layered plan that, again, almost worked.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hel was an existential threat that would have successfully led to the world being destroyed and taken over the Northern Pantheon afterwards if not for the Order. Tsukiko was hopelessly in over her head all the time and Redcloak disposed of her when she pushed too far. Tsukiko was also pretty delusional about the undead, whereas Hel is angry, spiteful and arrogant, but had a multi-layered plan that, again, almost worked. Yes, Hel's a better character all around.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't know. Oona feels fundamentally different from Thog to me. Thog sees (saw?) everything with childlike naivete, and didn't really bother with much in the way of complex or abstract thinking. Oona just... has an odd outlook. A weirdly sunny disposition, given where she lives and what she does for a living. If she resembles anyone else in the comic, I'd sooner say it was Elan than Thog.

Hel and Tsukiko REALLY feels like a stretch. The "replicate faster" line reads to me as more of frustrated outburst than any serious expectation that the virus could actually do better, while Tsukiko truly believed the undead could and would love her. And while they're both associated with the undead, their relationship to them is completely different. Hel's attitude is more like Redcloak's: they're tools (granted, she sees EVERYONE as tools, but still). And this might just be a headcanon, but I imagine Tsukiko was much more mindful of her wardrobe than Hel.

Now I want Oona and Thog to have an adventure together.

[137beth]

Tsukiko had her unrequited crush on Xykon, whereas Hel has Thrym hanging on her heels with an requited crush on her.

(Emphasis mine)
I think you mean Thrym has an unrequited crush on Hel.

[Goblin_Priest]

I disagree.

1. Oona is not stupid. (We have discussed this before). She merely speaks in an indiosyncratic manner (you could say she speaks with an accent).
2. Oona seems to be a leader in her tribe of bugbears. Thog couldn't lead a dog to food.
3. Oona isn't a comedy sidekick (as Thog was) but she does have a comedy sidekick in Greyview.

For point 1, yes, Oona speaks as if "common" isn't her first language. Personally, it reminds me of stereotypical russians in movies. Russian (and any other language) doesn't have the exact same grammar as English, so people who aren't perfectly familiar with English grammar are likely to burrow their own native tongue's grammar rules (or choice of words, see: false friends) to fill in the blanks of what they have learnt. Really she's probably only speaking common for Xykon's sake (and the audience), normally she would probably never use it, being in a secluded settlement, and only speak goblin.

As for narrative roles, personally I feel Oona has more of Thog than Tarquin has of Nale.

Nale was comically clichéd. Yes, both of them and Elan play a lot on the breaking the fourth wall and the in-world mastery of tropes, but their similarities end mostly there. Nale is largely a parody of these campy over-the-top villains of popular culture, that always use ridiculously complicated schemes that are bound to fail instead of just using the easy solutions. Similarly, he always fails, yet keeps coming back up to try another ridiculous scheme "on the next episode". Tarquin doesn't fit that at all. He's there for a single arc, he's not a recurring villain. His plans are also largely straightforward. Sure, as with any social strategies, there's some hidden complexities, but largely it revolves around "divide and conquer" and "make a scapegoat figurehead". Tarquin is more of a villainous Elan than he is a "greater" Nale.

I don't see a lot of similarities between Tsukiko and Hel, personally. Sure, female, association with undead, evil, and stuff like that, but that's all pretty superficial.

Of the pairings, the most commonalities I saw are between Thog and Oona. Yes, Thog is dumb and Oona is not. Thog is but a follower and Oona is a leader. Thog is self-centered and Oona has pets. and so on.

But both make us laugh with their brutality. Their unexpected disregard for others. Their occasional childish behavior. When Oona goes and noogies Redcloak, I see a bit of Thog in her, personally. When she goes out and says "well I've got no reason *not* to kill them", I see a bit of Thog in her. Thog mentionned his love of puppies once I think, and Oona basically has one.

I don't see Oona as a straight up substitute for Thog, though, but I do think that as others have said, she took significant roles from Thog and from the MitD.

[PontificatusRex]

(Emphasis mine)
I think you mean Thrym has an unrequited crush on Hel.

Oops, yes, typo.

Since the Hel/Tsukiko comparison is what inspired this line of thought and lots of folks don't see it, I'll elaborate a bit more.

In addition to the things I mentioned in the first post, Hel and Tsukiko really seem to have very similar personalities. The best word I can think of to describe them both is petulant. They both carry huge grudges for what they perceive are injustices against them - Tsukiko thought the Azurites were unfairly oppressing her for her necromantic experiments, and Hel being aggrieved that she is not getting the energy from worship she never deserved in the first place. They both regard themselves as "morally justified" when most people would say they are not - a big contrast from Redcloak, who most folks agree does have a legitimate reason for his anger though his methods are evil, and characters like Xykon, Loki, and the IFCC who make no pretense about not being the Bad Guys.

[Goblin_Priest]

Oops, yes, typo.

Since the Hel/Tsukiko comparison is what inspired this line of thought and lots of folks don't see it, I'll elaborate a bit more.

In addition to the things I mentioned in the first post, Hel and Tsukiko really seem to have very similar personalities. The best word I can think of to describe them both is petulant. They both carry huge grudges for what they perceive are injustices against them - Tsukiko thought the Azurites were unfairly oppressing her for her necromantic experiments, and Hel being aggrieved that she is not getting the energy from worship she never deserved in the first place. They both regard themselves as "morally justified" when most people would say they are not - a big contrast from Redcloak, who most folks agree does have a legitimate reason for his anger though his methods are evil, and characters like Xykon, Loki, and the IFCC who make no pretense about not being the Bad Guys.

Yes, there are parallels to their personalities and their stories.

But when I said I thought these were superficial, I meant in the narrative sense. Tsukiko is... a rather minor character. She's used for a few gags, but not all that many, and she barely interacts with the Order at all. Her role is mostly to evolve the relationship between Xykon and Redcloak. Her actions imply that Xykon is now suspecious of Redcloak and wants to know if he can do without him, or if he's being played. They let Redcloak expose more of his inner workings. And they put Redcloak's alliance with Xykon in jeoperdy, and sets the tone for their relationship moving forward. It's no longer Xykon the master evil with his loyal evil and dumb henchman as per the initial strips, but now two very powerful evil figures that are wearing a facade of collaborating, but who mutually distrust the other and plot in each others' backs. Tsukiko's purpose is largely to set this up, imo, both in terms of making it happen, and in terms of letting us see it.

Hel, on the other hand, is more of a quest giver, that drives one of the order's quests. She's the pupper master that turns one of the party's own against them. Additionally, she serves to add another layer of dramatic tension to their quest: they aren't just out to stop Xykon anymore, they are out to save existence itself.

The gags largely aren't on the same themes either. Hel's gags are largely about how petty and self-centered she is. Tsukiko's... honestly I can't think of many. There's some gags about necrophilia, which touches on social taboos and disgust, and some bits of irony which probably related to the fandom, like the part where she rants about making Miko an undead champion.

Yes, they are both females, they are both petulant, they are both evil, and all that. But these are merely character traits, not character roles and archetypes, like "comic relief" would be.