Level 1 character vs level 13 character

[CMagnum]

So I was having an argument with a friend about vow of poverty and how much money impacts the game. We decided to have a battle where I play a level 1 character with 110k gold and he plays a level 13 forsaker (he will take all ten levels of forsaker and I don't know what his other 3 levels will be).
Stats will be 18-18-17-17-15-11. I was thinking bard for umd and skill points, or for hp maybe a warblade?

I know I can just magic missile him and get flight and some miss chances and basically win as long as he doesn't get lucky ranged attacks in.

Just wondering what item combos you guys would take? There are a lot I have looked into, like all of the statues that become animals and a bag of tricks to have a horde of animal friends whale on him.
Miss chances and some wands of hold person etc (though he will have good saves).

Just looking for a few fun tricks to really shut him down.
Thanks playground!

[Doctor Despair]

Without dipping into too much cheese, I suppose taking a level of Marshal, taking a feat to make UMD a class skill (Flexible Mind would work), and taking a Magic-Blooded Unseeley Fey race would be a good start. That's +17 to your UMD check off the bat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Generally, if you're a low-level character with a ton of wealth, you want to buy something that fights for you, and then something that lets you hide from any fighting that's being done. A spell-only way to do that is with summon monster and telekinetic sphere. A staff of an 8th-level spell costs 45 000 gp and is made at CL 15. There are definitely cheaper ways to win, but hey, why do more than you need to?

[CMagnum]

Yeah, any way I do it, unless we start 30ft apart and he wins initiative and can one shot me assuming I don't have any active magic items or anything he could potentially win. Otherwise it's not even a contest

[Kayblis]

You can't declare an attack against something you can't see. Get a cheap item of Obscuring Mist and a way to see your enemy to shoot it, or a Summon Monster ability. Fly above jumping heights and hide. Having one or two spells on a staff costing 2+ charges each is very cheap, or you can straight up use scrolls if you have a high UMD mod.

[Quertus]

Yeah, any way I do it, unless we start 30ft apart and he wins initiative and can one shot me assuming I don't have any active magic items or anything he could potentially win. Otherwise it's not even a contest

This is, of course, a huge concern. So, let's solve it.

Class: Sorcerer 1.

Kauper's Skittish Nerves the derivitive Nerveskitter spell for +5 Initiative. Improved Initiative for another +4.

Let's steal Flexible Mind for UMD as a class skill, and taking a Magic-Blooded Unseeley Fey race for (apparently) a +17 to your UMD check off the bat. Which means we need a flaw. I'm thinking "+1 damage from metal" is a great flaw (since, if he hits you, you're dead anyway).

We still need offense and defense.

Scroll of Contingency, used before the battle.
Scroll of (Teleport? Dimension Door? Pplane Shift? Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere?), used for Contingency.
repeat costs of these two as needed until you succeed the rolls.

Ring of Invisibility. (nobody said you'd start the battle facing each other, he may not know where you are!)

5k Ring of 9 Lives (1 charge remaining, just in case he gets a lucky shot somehow)

Still need some form of flight.

and, while we're at it, let's steal some offense:
45k Staff of Summon Monster (VIII, I presume)

There's my "back of the napkin" ideas.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Buy yourself a psychoactive skin of proteus. At will metamorphosis at ML 7, for just a bit over 80k. Unlike polymorph, metamorphosis is only bound by the manifester level, not the target's HD, so you'll be able to turn into 7 HD critters and any objects with hardness 15 or below. If it's been sanctified or is otherwise [Good] aligned (like, say, by having the banner of law good effect added for +12,000 gp, from Heroes of Battle, for a constant protection from evil effect [which you'll want anyway, for that tasty pseudo-mind blank]) you can say it was crafted with the Words of Creation feat for a free boost to the skin's manifester level.

[CMagnum]

We are using the item buy rule of maximum one half of your wealth maximum for a single item so with 110k gold I can buy items off 55k gold or less only.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Have your body enhanced directly? For instance, turning your body into a +1 sizing/throwing/distance/metalline/ghost touch unarmed strike could have...interesting game effects. I mean, you'd have the ability to grow or shrink at will, throw yourself bodily up to 20' at will, become living steel or adamantine at will, or go incorporeal at will, while still being able to affect the world normally, whenever you want.

Also, an at will metamorphosis trigger item would be cheaper than the psychoactive skin of proteus. Even moreso if it takes up a body slot. Or maybe some power stones, while having a ML of 1 by being a psion or ardent or something?

[edit] A command-word thought at-will item of ML 7 metamorphosis is under your limit at just over 50k.

[Kaouse]

Generally, if you're a low-level character with a ton of wealth, you want to buy something that fights for you, and then something that lets you hide from any fighting that's being done.

This right here is the proper answer. Nowhere is Pathfinder more unbalanced than when it comes to the simple art of minionmancy, i.e. buying a minion that's vastly stronger than what you should have access to. This can come in the form of large and powerful animals, or even better, constructs (who you can add HD and other modifications to).

110,000 gold is unfortunately more than enough to get a minion with over 40 HD, and the chances of some level 13 character beating that (especially without wealth) are incredibly slim.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Weeeeeell...


A magebred warbeast titanic bat (fruit bat; they're adorable -- and they're largely frugivores) with a shrink collar (out of the A&EG). An adorable, Small-sized flying fox that is still just as strong as the original would make for a great pet-slash-bodyguard, if you were a good enough trainer to convince it to love you (and be quite careful of its surroundings -- especially you). 26 HD and 2,050 gp. And 10,000 gp for the collar. And if needed, you could always remove the shrink collar so it's Gargantuan-sized again. Who needs a jumbo jet when you've got a jumbo bat?That could be rather helpful, I think, assuming you have a way to get it to do what you want.

Or you could just use a toad instead and drop it from above when you dump out your enveloping pit...

[WhamBamSam]

I wouldn't rely entirely on flight to protect yourself. It's not unreasonable that a Forsaker build would be able to fly from race or feats alone by level 13 (Starspawn, Improved Dragon Wings, Raptoran, Wings Aspect Dragonborn, off the top of my head). I would put more effort into a defensive strategy.

[Doctor Despair]

Let's steal Flexible Mind for UMD as a class skill, and taking a Magic-Blooded Unseeley Fey race for (apparently) a +17 to your UMD check off the bat.


To clarify, the 17 comes from:

Base 18 charisma (+4 UMD)
Magic-Blooded (+2 charisma, +1 UMD)
Unseeley Fey (+2 charisma, +1 UMD)
Flexible Mind (+1 UMD)
Marshal (Motivate Charisma, +6 UMD)
Ranks (+4)

Taking a race with a positive charisma modifier will yield double bonuses due to the Marshal aura, but I'd imagine the Strongheart Halfling bonus feat would be more valuable to the build you're discussing, given you were considering flaws.

[newguydude1]

easy. umding a wand is dc 20 so get something with umd. like a rogue

get a colossal greatsword. costs 800gp.

get a wand of animate weapon. costs 11,250 gp
its from complete mage. you can cast it on any weapon larger than diminuitive and it turns it into an animated object for duration:concentration. something to note:
1. there is no upper size limit. only a lower size limit of bigger than diminuitive. so animate that colossal greatsword. it will hit for 8d6+13 a hit.
2. duration concentration is uncapped. so never stop concentration on it.

but what about sleep? pick a race that doesnt sleep. like warforged.

so for 12,050gp you will kick your friends ass at level 1.

want even more of a sure thing? add 3,000gp for 15,050gp total and make it out of adamantine. your buddy is gonna need to do more than 20 damage a hit to deal even 1 damage to your 256hp monster.

what about initiative? go inside your colossal monster. have the smith install a door into a small room and stay in there before you animate the thing. your friend cant get to you without killing the monster first.

everything here is above board. used as intended. no weird tricks or lawyering or shenanigans. you use a spell from complete mage as is that intentionally left out an upper size limit or an upper duration limit. and thats it. the end.



if you want something more iffy, that 3,800gp colossal adamantine greatsword, enchant it with the flying property which costs +1. combined with the mandatory +1 magic weapon enhancement, its gonna cost a grand total of 8000gp to animate it into a colossal flying animated object. no concentration needed. you dont even need umd. get any race or class you want.

its iffy because its a 3.0 forgotten realms magic weapon enhancement, unlike above which is 3.5 setting neutral. 11,800gp for a colossal flying animated object, so with your wealth limit get 9 of them.



something iffier. pay 26,530gp to get a spellcaster to cast wish on you and use savage species race change rules to turn into a pit fiend and just murder your friend. you can never level up ever again because your la is - meaning you never receive any exp from killing things. but who cares about that.



something less iffy, buy two stone golems. they should beat a vop noob



theres also a item called dust of choking and sneezing. costs 2400gp. have your animated objects and stone golems pop that. its a no-save 5d4 stun effect. so just keep popping them to perma stun your friend until he drops dead.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking

This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.

Faint conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, poison; Price 2,400 gp.

[Crake]

Just get a single use, use activated item of forcecage, trap him in with bars, since he has no magic items and no spellcasting ability, he is straight up trapped in there. Then just pick your choice of methods to kill him. I would recommend using a decanter of endless water tossed into his cage, followed by a casting of 4 walls of stone to let the water fill up his entire cage.

He then has the option to take the decanter and turn it off, which would strip him of all his forsaker abilities, or drown. Then, if he does indeed lose all his forsaker abilities by using the bottle, you rub salt in the wound by a dropping a second decanter out of reach but still inside the walls of stone and watching him drown anyway.

Total Cost:
Single-Use Use-Activated item of Forcecage: 6050gp
4x Single-Use Use-Activated item of Wall of Stone (CL8 for the extra inch of thickness) 1600gp x4 = 6400gp
2x decanter of endless water: 9000gp x2 = 18000gp
Sum: 30,450gp

That leaves you with 79,550gp to ensure you manage to get the combo off.

A contingent spell of greater celerity set to trigger when someone attempts to attack you will let you get a round of actions off before he gets an attack, then you can use anklets of translocation to blink 10 feet back and put up the caged wall of force. Alternatively, pick your two level 1 feats as Endurance, and Die Hard, and get a contingent delay death, giving you 20 rounds where you can just not die to his attacks while you just set up the combo ontop of him, then heal yourself before you actually die.

Alternatively just see if you can get away with using a wish to guarantee you go first in initiative, precast beforehand. It's not too farfetched considering limited wish has an option to make an attack automatically hit.

If single use use activated items are a problem, then get single charge ring of three wishes to do the force cage, and a 4 charge wand of wall of stone (CL8), along with 4 potions of guidance of the avatar, and a single rank in UMD. Little more expensive, but same result.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just get a single use, use activated item of forcecage, trap him in with bars, since he has no magic items and no spellcasting ability, he is straight up trapped in there. Then just pick your choice of methods to kill him. I would recommend using a decanter of endless water tossed into his cage, followed by a casting of 4 walls of stone to let the water fill up his entire cage.

He then has the option to take the decanter and turn it off, which would strip him of all his forsaker abilities, or drown. Then, if he does indeed lose all his forsaker abilities by using the bottle, you rub salt in the wound by a dropping a second decanter out of reach but still inside the walls of stone and watching him drown anyway.

Total Cost:
Single-Use Use-Activated item of Forcecage: 6050gp
4x Single-Use Use-Activated item of Wall of Stone (CL8 for the extra inch of thickness) 1600gp x4 = 6400gp
2x decanter of endless water: 9000gp x2 = 18000gp
Sum: 30,450gp

That leaves you with 79,550gp to ensure you manage to get the combo off.

A contingent spell of greater celerity set to trigger when someone attempts to attack you will let you get a round of actions off before he gets an attack, then you can use anklets of translocation to blink 10 feet back and put up the caged wall of force. Alternatively, pick your two level 1 feats as Endurance, and Die Hard, and get a contingent delay death, giving you 20 rounds where you can just not die to his attacks while you just set up the combo ontop of him, then heal yourself before you actually die.

Alternatively just see if you can get away with using a wish to guarantee you go first in initiative, precast beforehand. It's not too farfetched considering limited wish has an option to make an attack automatically hit.

If single use use activated items are a problem, then get single charge ring of three wishes to do the force cage, and a 4 charge wand of wall of stone (CL8), along with 4 potions of guidance of the avatar, and a single rank in UMD. Little more expensive, but same result.He can break the decanter via sundering it, so I doubt he'd lose his abilities.

However, if you forcecage him, then surround it with three to four walls far enough apart that he can't reach them, forming a triangle or square box, then toss the activated water bottle in the stone cage far enough away that he can't reach it (surrounding it in a second forcecage), then seal over the top so he can't escape even if he somehow manages to neutralize the forcecage via Iron Heart Surge, or something, leaving juuust enough of a crack in the top at one corner such that the air can escape, leaving nothing but a watery grave.

[edit] Do something like this (https://web.archive.org/web/20100608165231/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14). (Search for It's done. I killed him, and easily.)

[newguydude1]

theres also that thing with starmantle and evasion that makes someone invincible.

[rel]

As others have mentioned, flight isn't a guaranteed defense against muggles at level 10.
Consider burrowing as an alternative. Or surrounding yourself or your enemy in walls of force. If you are relying on flight to stay safe friendly fire is a way to no-sell ranged attacks.
Going first is important so stack initiative and detection abilities.

The most important thing is to not rely on just 1 trick to either stay safe or deal damage. that way if your opponents build counters a trick you still have options.

[sreservoir]

As a quick checklist, take a look at the lists of necessary magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) and bring the things that they're supposed to counter, because he's likely to not have a response to any given one of them.

[mabriss lethe]

If you want to make it "harder" on yourself, pick only items that any character can use. No Spell trigger or spell completion, etc. Just something that any rando can use. For added tomfoolery, you could even go as a commoner. Heck, a commoner with all 10s in ability scores. Literally strip yourself down to nothing but what WBL provides and make sure it's stuff that anyone can use. Don't try to leverage the greatest advantage possible from it. Go for the least advantageous method. You'll still hand him his butt on a platter and that will better prove the importance of magic items than a build designed to eke every last iota of usefulness from them.

Elemental gems. Disposable items to give you elementals as temporary minions. (there's also the shadow elemental version in the Shadowcaster section of ToM) They aren't super powerful, calling a large elemental, but they can really hinder him in a lot of inconvenient ways. For added evil, since he's a forsaker, fake him out, accidentally drop or throw the gem at him without triggering it, It becomes a freebie that he can use to activate his DR or other shenanigans. He has no wbl, so he really shouldn't start the fight with DR without destroying a magic item in the field. (Not that his DR is that impressive, but it's mostly to motivate him to take your bait and destroy the gem.
Destroying the gem does 2 things. it releases the elemental and strips him of his class abilities (since he inadvertently used it by destroying it.) If he's going with VoP, it will short circuit all of those bonuses as well. Sure, he has command over an elemental, but you can make that useless in any number of ways. Flying and giving up an earth elemental gem is the most simplistic I can think of.

Instant Fortress: it's 55k, so right at your price limit, but it creates a fortification that a VoP/Forsaker won't be able to overcome. I mean 100HP at Hardness 20 is going to cramp his style. you can use it in any number of ways. Activate it when he gets close to catch him in the expansion for 10d10 damage (ref 19 save) I mean, unless you strip him of his class abilities, he's probably going to have stellar saves so don't rely on that. But other than that, you then have either an impregnable fortress or an inescapable prison. The door only opens or closes on your command and he really has no way to get through. Trapping him inside while you mosey away, or just turtle up inside it yourself. sadly you can't deactivate the fortress while he's in it, but hey, details.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to make it "harder" on yourself, pick only items that any character can use. No Spell trigger or spell completion, etc. Just something that any rando can use. For added tomfoolery, you could even go as a commoner. Heck, a commoner with all 10s in ability scores. Literally strip yourself down to nothing but what WBL provides and make sure it's stuff that anyone can use. Don't try to leverage the greatest advantage possible from it. Go for the least advantageous method. You'll still hand him his butt on a platter and that will better prove the importance of magic items than a build designed to eke every last iota of usefulness from them.

Elemental gems. Disposable items to give you elementals as temporary minions. (there's also the shadow elemental version in the Shadowcaster section of ToM) They aren't super powerful, calling a large elemental, but they can really hinder him in a lot of inconvenient ways. For added evil, since he's a forsaker, fake him out, accidentally drop or throw the gem at him without triggering it, It becomes a freebie that he can use to activate his DR or other shenanigans. He has no wbl, so he really shouldn't start the fight with DR without destroying a magic item in the field. (Not that his DR is that impressive, but it's mostly to motivate him to take your bait and destroy the gem.
Destroying the gem does 2 things. it releases the elemental and strips him of his class abilities (since he inadvertently used it by destroying it.) If he's going with VoP, it will short circuit all of those bonuses as well. Sure, he has command over an elemental, but you can make that useless in any number of ways. Flying and giving up an earth elemental gem is the most simplistic I can think of.

Instant Fortress: it's 55k, so right at your price limit, but it creates a fortification that a VoP/Forsaker won't be able to overcome. I mean 100HP at Hardness 20 is going to cramp his style. you can use it in any number of ways. Activate it when he gets close to catch him in the expansion for 10d10 damage (ref 19 save) I mean, unless you strip him of his class abilities, he's probably going to have stellar saves so don't rely on that. But other than that, you then have either an impregnable fortress or an inescapable prison. The door only opens or closes on your command and he really has no way to get through. Trapping him inside while you mosey away, or just turtle up inside it yourself. sadly you can't deactivate the fortress while he's in it, but hey, details.If you are inside it and leave it unlocked, entering it is using a magic item, so he'll lose all his forsaker abilities if he follows you. Feel free to snipe him from the upper floor windows.

[mabriss lethe]

If you are inside it and leave it unlocked, entering it is using a magic item, so he'll lose all his forsaker abilities if he follows you. Feel free to snipe him from the upper floor windows.

I first thought that trapping him in there with nothing but a sustaining spoon would be a wonderful insult, but I actually reread VoP and realized it was a pointless one if he has the Vow or otherwise doesn't need to eat.

EDIT TO ADD:
A most cunning way to win, with a two item combo. it'll take all the character's WBL, but fits the basic criteria. An instant fortress and a Cloak of etherealness. Deploy the fortress. Run inside. Leave the door open. Let him come to you. When he enters, lock him in, use the cloak, and saunter out right through the walls.

[Crake]

He can break the decanter via sundering it, so I doubt he'd lose his abilities.

However, if you forcecage him, then surround it with three to four walls far enough apart that he can't reach them, forming a triangle or square box, then toss the activated water bottle in the stone cage far enough away that he can't reach it (surrounding it in a second forcecage), then seal over the top so he can't escape even if he somehow manages to neutralize the forcecage via Iron Heart Surge, or something, leaving juuust enough of a crack in the top at one corner such that the air can escape, leaving nothing but a watery grave.

[edit] Do something like this (https://web.archive.org/web/20100608165231/http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14). (Search for It's done. I killed him, and easily.)

The first decanter was mostly just a taunt, i already accounted that by having a second one to fill the area.

Not even gonna touch IHS

[SirNibbles]

Just get a single use, use activated item of forcecage, trap him in with bars, since he has no magic items and no spellcasting ability, he is straight up trapped in there. Then just pick your choice of methods to kill him. I would recommend using a decanter of endless water tossed into his cage, followed by a casting of 4 walls of stone to let the water fill up his entire cage.

He then has the option to take the decanter and turn it off, which would strip him of all his forsaker abilities, or drown. Then, if he does indeed lose all his forsaker abilities by using the bottle, you rub salt in the wound by a dropping a second decanter out of reach but still inside the walls of stone and watching him drown anyway.

Total Cost:
Single-Use Use-Activated item of Forcecage: 6050gp
4x Single-Use Use-Activated item of Wall of Stone (CL8 for the extra inch of thickness) 1600gp x4 = 6400gp
2x decanter of endless water: 9000gp x2 = 18000gp
Sum: 30,450gp

That leaves you with 79,550gp to ensure you manage to get the combo off.

A contingent spell of greater celerity set to trigger when someone attempts to attack you will let you get a round of actions off before he gets an attack, then you can use anklets of translocation to blink 10 feet back and put up the caged wall of force. Alternatively, pick your two level 1 feats as Endurance, and Die Hard, and get a contingent delay death, giving you 20 rounds where you can just not die to his attacks while you just set up the combo ontop of him, then heal yourself before you actually die.

Alternatively just see if you can get away with using a wish to guarantee you go first in initiative, precast beforehand. It's not too farfetched considering limited wish has an option to make an attack automatically hit.

If single use use activated items are a problem, then get single charge ring of three wishes to do the force cage, and a 4 charge wand of wall of stone (CL8), along with 4 potions of guidance of the avatar, and a single rank in UMD. Little more expensive, but same result.

Great idea except he doesn't need to breathe, being a 12th level or higher character with VoP.

[Crake]

Great idea except he doesn't need to breathe, being a 12th level or higher character with VoP.

Ah, I didn't think that was until later.

Guess just replace the water with a bunch of shrunken lava that you toss into the pit. (Shrink item can turn lava into a heatless cloth-like composition: "Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. ") Pile in enough and he might not drown, but he'll die from lava damage.

[SirNibbles]

Ah, I didn't think that was until later.

Guess just replace the water with a bunch of shrunken lava that you toss into the pit. (Shrink item can turn lava into a heatless cloth-like composition: "Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. ") Pile in enough and he might not drown, but he'll die from lava damage.

"An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma." - Dungeon Master's Guide, page 304

"Energy Resistance (Ex): At 13th level, an ascetic gains resistance 5 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy." - Book of Exalted Deeds, page 30

A silly rule, but it exists nonetheless that any amount of fire resistance will make you immune to lava.

[Crake]

"An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma." - Dungeon Master's Guide, page 304

"Energy Resistance (Ex): At 13th level, an ascetic gains resistance 5 to acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic energy." - Book of Exalted Deeds, page 30

A silly rule, but it exists nonetheless that any amount of fire resistance will make you immune to lava.

Also frankly a dumb one that clearly meant to imply that resistance and immunity to fire apply to lava damage.

This is made clear by the fact that the rules compendium simply says


Lava deals 2d6 points of fire damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion, which deals 20d6 points of fire damage per round. Damage from lava continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact.
A creature immune to fire might still suffocate (see page 141) if completely immersed in lava.

Specifying that the lava deals fire damage, and thus is affected by resistance/immunity as normal, as opposed to the DMG entry which simply says "Lava deals damage" and then later goes on to talk about resistances and immunity.

If he tries to argue that point, he's just being a cheesy munchkin.

[AvatarVecna]

UMD. Ranks +4, Skill Focus +3, Cha +1. Total +8.

Scroll of Shapechange CL 20: 4500 gp.
Eternal Wand of Guidance Of The Avatar: 4420 gp.

Anything else should be unnecessary, honestly. Clown on him with any number of 20 HD forms. A quick glance around the SRD:
CR 13: Adult Green Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#greenDragon)
CR 14: Adult Copper Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#copperDragon)
CR 14: Young Adult Gold Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon)
CR 20: Balor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)
CR 21: Titan (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm)
CR 22: Ha-Naga (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm)


I probably missed a few, and certainly there'll be tons outside of core. Heck, you could even take basically anything with fewer than 20 HD and advance them to 20 HD.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A ring of the darkhidden, when paired with the no light cantrip, makes you invisible to anyone without true seeing or touchsight. You'll need darkvision or some other way to sense the world around you, however.

You may also want to consider invisibility, paired with an Invisible Spell'd fog cloud. Anyone who can see invisible things sees nothing but fog, while those who can't won't be able to see you, either.

[SirNibbles]

A ring of the darkhidden, when paired with the no light cantrip, makes you invisible to anyone without true seeing or touchsight. You'll need darkvision or some other way to sense the world around you, however.

You may also want to consider invisibility, paired with an Invisible Spell'd fog cloud. Anyone who can see invisible things sees nothing but fog, while those who can't won't be able to see you, either.

That's not a trick that's going to show someone the importance of magic gear, that's just a stupid trick because Invisible Spell is stupid. Even with magic gear it's a pain in the ass.

__


Also frankly a dumb one that clearly meant to imply that resistance and immunity to fire apply to lava damage.

This is made clear by the fact that the rules compendium simply says



Specifying that the lava deals fire damage, and thus is affected by resistance/immunity as normal, as opposed to the DMG entry which simply says "Lava deals damage" and then later goes on to talk about resistances and immunity.

If he tries to argue that point, he's just being a cheesy munchkin.

Fair. The Rules Compendium rules don't contradict the RAW from the DMG, but the intent is perfectly clear- it's just poorly written.

[heavyfuel]

Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

If you really intend to prove a point (intead of just showing your friend how well strangers on the internet know the intricacies of the game far better that either of you) I strongly encourage items that would make for an actually viable character.

Also, your friend can have access to Ex teleportation with a few feats or a level in Swordsage, which a lot people seem to be ignoring.

[AvatarVecna]

Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

If you really intend to prove a point (intead of just showing your friend how well strangers on the internet know the intricacies of the game far better that either of you) I strongly encourage items that would make for an actually viable character.

Also, your friend can have access to Ex teleportation with a few feats or a level in Swordsage, which a lot people seem to be ignoring.

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.

[heavyfuel]

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.

Sheneanigans are going to be equally dismissed on the same principle. It's easy to win the fight with shenanigans, but you won't win the argument with them.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Add an item of continuous acorn of far travel (6000 gp) involving some planar time shenanigans so that the Shapechange is effectively permanent.Actually, it doesn't need to be continuous. You just need to plant (or find) the oak tree on a plane that's timeless with regards to magic. Since you're considered to be under the tree's canopy while in possession of the acorn, you're considered to be on that timeless-with-regards-to-magic plane. And since you're holding the acorn, the acorn of far travel spell is also considered to be on said plane. Which means the spell effect is permanent unless dispelled.

Of course, if you really wanna cheat like a mofo... (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?546179-Un-Hallow-that-Stacks)

[SirNibbles]

Kobold Sneak Attack Fighter 1
Stats with Elite Array:
STR 6
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8

Items:
-Carpet of Flying (20,000 gp)
-Yuan-Ti Poison Fangs Graft (8,000 gp)
-Continuous Amulet of Venomfire, CL 8 (48,000 gp)
-some sort of invisibility item

Feats:
Spit Venom
Deadly Spittle

Flaw:
Noncombatant

+5 to hit touch attack at 30 feet deals 8d6 Acid (+1d6 on a sneak attack) and DC 12 Fort vs 1d6 Con damage.
Within 15 feet, you can just spit in a cone with a 100% chance to deal 8d6.

Yes, it's only 23 damage on average, but if you're Invisible or otherwise undetectable, it doesn't matter- you can just whittle away at the Forsaker (who will eventually roll low enough to fail their Fort save too).

Is this a super optimised build? No. But it definitely works against enemies outside of this single scenario without relying on cheap tricks.

[newguydude1]

Sheneanigans are going to be equally dismissed on the same principle. It's easy to win the fight with shenanigans, but you won't win the argument with them.

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

[heavyfuel]

Why are people optimizing to fight something like Fighter 3/Forsaker 10?

If the Forsaker is any good at optimization (which likely isn't the case given how they thing magic isn't stupid strong in 3.5), the character's gonna be something like Swordsage 1 / Forsaker 10 / Swordage +1 with Dark Creature template.

That's still a level 13 character with a Hide modifier of "you fail" against any level 1 character. And they have access to stuff like Scent, teleportation, and AoE that insta-kills any lv 1 character.

Unless you're going to cheese your wealth in order to emulate high level spells, this is a losing battle. And if you do use your wealth to emulate high level spells, you fall into the trap of the player just going "meh, this doesn't work in a real game, so you didn't really prove your point", which is something that will absolutely happen if you try to cheese your victory.

[heavyfuel]

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

"Well, no DM would ever allow that in a real game, so it obviously doesn't count." There. That is, verbatim, what OP is going to hear as soon as he pulls out his Shapechange scroll (or whatever). Of course, every one that plays with them is going to agree, and thus OP will lose the debate even though they won the fight.

If you really want to prove OP's point, you have to take the hard route. Taking the easy route is just going to get your victory dismissed

Artificer is Tier 0? The playground disagrees with you.

[newguydude1]

Unless you're going to cheese your wealth in order to emulate high level spells, this is a losing battle. And if you do use your wealth to emulate high level spells, you fall into the trap of the player just going "meh, this doesn't work in a real game, so you didn't really prove your point", which is something that will absolutely happen if you try to cheese your victory.

that sounds like someone saying anything that lets a level 1 character beat a level 13 character doesnt work in a real game.

of course it doesnt. in a real game a 1st level character wont have 110,000gp. someone with 110,000gp wont be a 1st level character and his item loadout would be completely different.



this is as simple and straightforward as it gets. umd a wand of divine insight and a wand of guidance of the avatar and umd a scroll of gate. the end. vorpal balor or solar with butcher the forsaker and youll have loads of wealth to spare.


Any strategy that relies on single use magic items - however effective it may be - is going to get dismissed by the Forsaker on the basis that in an actual game you wouldn't spend your entire wealth to win a single fight.

everything i suggested earlier is either a permanent magic weapon or a wand that could also be a permanent wand.

[heavyfuel]

that sounds like someone saying anything that lets a level 1 character beat a level 13 character doesnt work in a real game.

of course it doesnt. in a real game a 1st level character wont have 110,000gp. someone with 110,000gp wont be a 1st level character and his item loadout would be completely different.

In a real game it is perfectly possible for there to be a NPC that inherited their wealth and has 110k gp despite being level 1.

[newguydude1]

In a real game it is perfectly possible for there to be a NPC that inherited their wealth and has 110k gp despite being level 1.

so what is a shenanigan?

1st level character umding high level spells is perfectly normal character concept.
1st level character buying permanent magic items replicating powerful spells is perfectly normal character concept.
1st level character buying robots with that wealth is a perfectly normal character concept. i said 2 stone golems spamming dusts of choking and sneezing. is that a shenanigan?
flying weapons might be a shenanigan cause its so cheap, but golems and cursed dusts are in core and their construction/acquisition is normal.

1st level character going perma flying invisible and bypassing move silently to pelt the target from afar is also a perfectly normal character concept.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's some items that could be considered cheating for how they come to be, even if it's relatively straightforward what they do and how they function. All items have their market price halved due to being cursed to only work for somebody with the right race/alignment/skill combo - this is actual market price, not crafting price, so it's useful for our purposes.

Human Fighter 1 (Hit-And-Run)
Attribute assignments: 17/18/17/11/18/10
Feats: Toughness x4, Troll-Blooded
Flaws: Meager Fortitude, Shaky
Gold Spend: 109000 gp

4250: Arms/Bracers Of True Armor +7 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: AC +1 (alchemical)
750: AC +1 (circumstance)
500: AC +1 (deflection)
500: AC +1 (luck)
500: AC +1 (morale)
500: AC +1 (profane)
500: AC +1 (sacred)


3500: Body/Gi Of True Strength +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: Strength +1 (alchemical)
750: Strength +1 (circumstance)
250: Strength +1 (enhancement)
500: Strength +1 (morale)
500: Strength +1 (profane)
500: Strength +1 (sacred)


3500: Face/Glasses Of True Wisdom +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: Wisdom +1 (alchemical)
750: Wisdom +1 (circumstance)
250: Wisdom +1 (enhancement)
500: Wisdom +1 (morale)
500: Wisdom +1 (profane)
500: Wisdom +1 (sacred)


4000: Feet/Boots Of Continuous "Haste" (as cast by a Trapsmith)

3500: Hands/Gloves Of True Dexterity +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: Dexterity +1 (alchemical)
750: Dexterity +1 (circumstance)
250: Dexterity +1 (enhancement)
500: Dexterity +1 (morale)
500: Dexterity +1 (profane)
500: Dexterity +1 (sacred)


4000: Head/Circlet Of Continuous "Lesser Vigor"

7200: Ring/Ring of At-Will Command Word "Greater Mirror Image" (CL 2, as cast by a weird Sublime Chord build)

12500: Ring/Ring Of Evasion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#evasion)

48000: Shoulders/Cloak Of Continuous "Starmantle" (CL 4, as cast by a weird Sublime Chord build)

5000: Torso/Vest Of True Protection +9 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: Saves +1 (alchemical)
750: Saves +1 (circumstance)
500: Saves +1 (competence)
500: Saves +1 (insight)
500: Saves +1 (luck)
500: Saves +1 (morale)
500: Saves +1 (profane)
250: Saves +1 (resistance)
500: Saves +1 (sacred)


3500: Throat/Amulet Of True Health +6 (uses Multiple Similar Abilities rules)
1000: Constitution +1 (alchemical)
750: Constitution +1 (circumstance)
250: Constitution +1 (enhancement)
500: Constitution +1 (morale)
500: Constitution +1 (profane)
500: Constitution +1 (sacred)


6500: Waist/Monk's Belt (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks)

3550: Adamantine Greatsword +1 Of True Strike
1500: Adamantine
50: Greatsword
1000: Attack/Damage +1 (enhancement)
1000: At-Will Use-Activated "True Strike"


Init +13, AC 32, 28 HP, Fort +14, Ref +17, Will +16, Regen 1, Fast Healing 1. 1/8 chance an attack targets you, 1/20 chance a hit damages you.

Full Attack: Greatsword +29/+29, 2d6+10 (19-20/x2)

It's all BS shenanigans tho so idk how seriously that should be considered.

[heavyfuel]

so what is a shenanigan?

This is going to depend entirely on OP's game-mates and their usual optimization level when playing 3.5, so this question is impossible to answer without extra input from OP.

WBL-mancy is pretty common in the forums, but it's definitely not something (widely) available in most games.

If you're just going to cheese WBL, you might as well buy a Candle of Invocation and bring Pun-Pun to the fight.

[Vaern]

Don't forget to start combat holding onto an arrow with the one enchantment that boosts your initiative

[Quertus]

This is going to depend entirely on OP's game-mates and their usual optimization level when playing 3.5, so this question is impossible to answer without extra input from OP.

WBL-mancy is pretty common in the forums, but it's definitely not something (widely) available in most games.

If you're just going to cheese WBL, you might as well buy a Candle of Invocation and bring Pun-Pun to the fight.

I'm confused - how is "cheese WBL" not the entire name of this game? :smallconfused:


Don't forget to start combat holding onto an arrow with the one enchantment that boosts your initiative

Do you mean Eager, or Warning? Yeah, I kinda "forgot" those when I was trying to boost initiative earlier. So, that's... IIRC, +7 initiative for 18k (fair) or 360 gp (cheesy), if they're both on the same held weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A +1 warning/eager/morphing/sizing shuriken morphed into a poison ring (Dragon Compendium) is a great way to wield it without having it be particularly bothersome. It costs only slightly more than 1/50 the price of normal +1 warning/eager weapon, and it can have additional weapon and ring enhancements added. There are plenty of very nice passive weapon abilities you can add to such an item.

[awa]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

[newguydude1]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

he is wrong.

high level spells > everything
wealth gives high level spells to 1st level characters
therefore wealth > levels.

this is how you win the argument. you do all the things listed in this thread with eternal wands of animate weapon, etc. etc. and after he says bs or broken again and again and again and again and after the 20th thing he says that magic item is hax, then he'll realize this hax is d&d 3.5. and accept wealth is better than character levels.

[Batcathat]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

[AvatarVecna]

It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

It's a little less interesting on the other side of things. Not that fun weird crap couldn't be done, but part of what makes WBLmancy so extra is that there's a feasible way to buy basically anything. Feats, spells, skills, extra attacks, buildings, people, all kinds of nonsense. There's a bit less room to go hogwild on the other side of things. Like...

...okay, so lvl 13, Forsaker 10. That's three levels we can play around with. To enter Forsaker at lvl 4, we need to already have 3 feats, none of which are fighter bonus feats. That means either Human or Flaws (or both). If we want VoP online ASAP to get the most exalted feats, we're talking both. That's Human with 2 flaws, in order to have Sacred Vow/Vow Of Poverty/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will by lvl 3, to enter Forsaker at lvl 4. And we can't buy a trip to the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will (although I guess we could get thrown in and try to escape?).

So with that all locked into place, here's the stuff we can choose:
The three starting levels, and any choices built into that class
The HD feats at lvls 6/9/12
Skills
The Exalted feats at lvls 1/2/4/6/8/10/12

Exalted feats are (mostly) nothing to really write home about. There's very few gamechangers among them, the most well-known is probably Touch Of Golden Ice that attaches a not!poison to your natural weapons.

The levels can't be casting, or they're largely wasted. This doesn't necessarily mean being cut off from everything - psion and similar aren't "casters" in the same way wizard is, after all. Although that gets into how OP's table hands magic-psionics transparency, and for that matter whether they feel psion would be "cheating" for the purposes of this experiment. I don't really think so, but then it's not my thought experiment. Maneuvers are almost certainly far more acceptable, though. I'm not really well-versed in ToB stuff or psionics too well, so other people would have to speak to which one was more useful for this kind of thing. Maneuvers is probably more fitting to the idea behind the challenge, while psion is probably superior mechanically. And while I'm not an expert on this either, I do have an alternative suggestion: maybe Truenamer?

Truenamer 3 with Truenaming 16 ranks, skill focus, and two truenaming feats might be better able to spam truenamer abilities? idk, I've never really been interested in Truenamer either, I just know that "not having a big enough skill bonus" is frequently a problem, and this setup would allow you to have an abnormally high skill bonus for your amount of casting. Of course I'm also not sure if Truenaming is close enough to traditional casting that Forsaker blocks it, so....yeah. >.>

If we're going with maneuvers, probably the path here is Unarmed Swordsage? Wis to AC, access to most schools, x6 skill points at first level...Unarmed Swordsage 3, with 3 bonus feats to assign that aren't Exalted, could probably do some neat stuff. And since it's Unarmed Swordsage, we could pick up Touch Of Golden Ice (among others).

[AvatarVecna]

I mean also there's the cheeky answer: Leadership+Improved Cohort.

I can't know this for 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that a Druid 12 cohort can probably stomp the lvl 1 WBLmancer, whether the druid has wealth or VoP.

[heavyfuel]

I'm confused - how is "cheese WBL" not the entire name of this game? :smallconfused:

It's not. At least, it shouldn't be.

OP wants to prove that money is better than class levels. You can cheese either, but any cheese will be dismissed by OP's game mates and he will have proven nothing to them except that he has the ability to go online and beg strangers for help beating his friend in a game.


In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.

Couldn't agree more.


It would be kinda interesting to see everyone who's contributed in the thread to put the same effort into the other guy's build. I still wouldn't bet on no-wealth-guy winning but it might be an interesting thought exercise for people with more system mastery than myself.

I kinda tried... I think my Swordsage suggestion has a decent chance of beating anything that doesn't rely on single-use items of 9th level spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I mean also there's the cheeky answer: Leadership+Improved Cohort.

I can't know this for 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that a Druid 12 cohort can probably stomp the lvl 1 WBLmancer, whether the druid has wealth or VoP.
A druid 12 cohort gets NPC WBL to the tune of 27 000 gp. Not a huge amount, but there's no question that the WBLmancer gets to fly out of the arena at some speed, in all directions at once.


OK, forsaker optimization.
Problem: A simple resilient sphere blocks 100% of what even a swordsage can do, and costs only 10 500 gp (that's for a staff, and no, it's not partially charged).
Solution: Shadow Hand teleports bypass force barriers.
Problem: If the sphere is small enough--and it will be 7' in diameter at minimum CL, 5' if it's an artificer-made staff--there's no space to teleport to.
Solution: Be two size categories smaller than whatever the WBLmancer is. Alternative: be incorporeal.
Implication: It would be good for the WBLmancer to be very small indeed, preferably Fine, inside a teeny tiny sphere--at this point, you just buy a 6" riverine sphere and a necklace of adaptation.
Question: Can we get any sort of dispel and cancellation ability onto the Forsaker?

[heavyfuel]

A druid 12 cohort gets NPC WBL to the tune of 27 000 gp. Not a huge amount, but there's no question that the WBLmancer gets to fly out of the arena at some speed, in all directions at once.


OK, forsaker optimization.
Problem: A simple resilient sphere blocks 100% of what even a swordsage can do, and costs only 10 500 gp (that's for a staff, and no, it's not partially charged).
Solution: Shadow Hand teleports bypass force barriers.
Problem: If the sphere is small enough--and it will be 7' in diameter at minimum CL, 5' if it's an artificer-made staff--there's no space to teleport to.
Solution: Be two size categories smaller than whatever the WBLmancer is. Alternative: be incorporeal.
Implication: It would be good for the WBLmancer to be very small indeed, preferably Fine, inside a teeny tiny sphere--at this point, you just buy a 6" riverine sphere and a necklace of adaptation.
Question: Can we get any sort of dispel and cancellation ability onto the Forsaker?

Hiding behind an indestructible sphere for a few hour (50 charges, 7~9 min per charge) isn't exactly a good strategy. The swordsage can just wait for you to run out of charges. If you grab multiple staves, you'll just making the wait a bit longer.

If you're fine inside a riverine sphere the swordsage can just grab the sphere and drop you. Nothing about riverine stopping falling damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Waaaait a minute. If you're going up against an exalted character, wouldn't that just mean that you could play a Good character and he couldn't touch you without losing his exalted status? Just give yourself a really good reason why he needs to be defeated, make yourself immune to nonlethal damage, and you should be fine. After all, any attempt to kill you should backfire on him spectacularly.

So find a way to make him lose his exalted status, his vows, and his forsaker abilities all three, then laugh as you potshot him.

[AvatarVecna]

In my opinion if you need the internet hive mind to win this fight your argument wasn’t very strong to begin with.
I mean unless he is using the internet hive-mind to build his character too all you will do is show him that the game is full of broken combos not that his argument is wrong.


Couldn't agree more.

"I'm personally not good enough at this game to beat X with Y, therefore Y isn't actually better than X"

The conclusion that Y isn't better than X isn't necessarily wrong, but the personal capabilities of the person making the argument isn't reflective of the system. I can't go to a Smash tournament, pick Fox/Falco, get destroyed because I'm **** at Smash, and thus conclude that Fox/Falco are trash-tier characters, because the actual correct conclusion there is that I'm a trash-tier player who shouldn't have been taking part in competitive play. At best, it means that I'm the wrong person to prove how good Fox/Falco actually are/aren't.

Admittedly, I'm also kinda unclear on what standards would be acceptable for you, tho. Limited-use items get dismissed because that's just spending to win a single fight, so it's not indicative of how useful wealth is. Unlimited-use items get dismissed because that's cheesing your wealth. So spell items are entirely off the table. Cheesing flat-bonus style items is off the table for similar "that's cheating" reasons. You say that you're dismissing these things because the person building the Forsaker would, and yeah they probably would, because they don't realize what the system is capable of when you're not placing arbitrary restrictions on it.


this is how you win the argument. you do all the things listed in this thread with eternal wands of animate weapon, etc. etc. and after he says bs or broken again and again and again and again and after the 20th thing he says that magic item is hax, then he'll realize this hax is d&d 3.5. and accept wealth is better than character levels.

This, essentially. How much you get out of money is only a matter of how hard you're willing to work for it, and quite frankly very very little of it could be considered fair. That's why, whenever one of those "is fighter actually worthwhile" threads pops up, there's people crawling out of the woodwork to insist that WBL on its own is basically enough that fighter can remain relevant at higher-op games. I don't necessarily agree with that perspective, but I can see why they think that because money is just so good. You can buy better stats, or better AC, or better saves, or beter skills, or better weapons. You can buy feats and spells. You can buy buildings. You can buy people. You can buy methods of generating money that give more than you put into it in the first place. You can use crafting to get even more bang for your buck, and a half-dozen methods of tweaking the effects to reduce the price even further.

And the vast majority of it is unfair to somebody locked out of that system by an in-universe moral code, because even if VoP gave you ten times what it currently gives you in Big Numbers and floating immunities, you can always use equal-level money to cheat your way into even bigger numbers and even more immunities. It's just a matter of how hard you're willing to "cheat within the rules". Any argument of "money beats basically everything" is going to come down showing the many ways you can cheat with money instead of just taking VoP, because VoP gives more value than equal-level money at most levels (not a ton more, but still). Any money method that could be considered "playing fair" would be insufficient to get a lvl 1 character capable of taking on a lvl 13 character.


Waaaait a minute. If you're going up against an exalted character, wouldn't that just mean that you could play a Good character and he couldn't touch you without losing his exalted status? Just give yourself a really good reason why he needs to be defeated, make yourself immune to nonlethal damage, and you should be fine. After all, any attempt to kill you should backfire on him spectacularly.

So find a way to make him lose his exalted status, his vows, and his forsaker abilities all three, then laugh as you potshot him.

While also an argument worth having with somebody who thinks VoP is good, "VoP is trash because it's so poorly written that you can fall for basically anything" is a whole separate argument from "VoP is trash because the stuff it gives you is less useful than having money that can be spent on anything".

[heavyfuel]

"I'm personally not good enough at this game to beat X with Y, therefore Y isn't actually better than X"

Fair point, but there's still the fact that OP has access to the combined knowledge of a dozen optimizers while his friend probably doesn't even know what a swordsage is.

Of course that a bunch of people that have spent the last 20 years learning the ins and outs of a system pooling their knowledge is going to beat almost anyone in a PvP scenario.

OP doesn't have the upper hand in the combat because he has gold. He has the upper hand because he knows this forum.

[AnimeTheCat]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

Damn good write up (although the PC that is burning all their wealth on single-use items of high level spells still probably wins this, despite being crippled as a character afterwards)

[newguydude1]

OP doesn't have the upper hand in the combat because he has gold. He has the upper hand because he knows this forum.

the wealth guy would still win vs a 13th level vop wizard. so this is incorrect. if the 13th level player came to this forum to ask us to help prove he is right, all of us would be saying the exact same thing. he is wrong, and then show a list of wealth shenanigans that will destroy whatever a vop character can do.

if the contest was a 13th level character vs a vop 13th level character, seeing how they do against a balor or something, thats a more accurate measurement of how terrible vop is because no dr, no way of handling greater teleport, no way of handling blasphemy, etc. etc.

but the contest is 1 vs 13. so the op wants us to tell him how to ****ing blow his friend to pieces and make him cry out bs.


Damn good write up (although the PC that is burning all their wealth on single-use items of high level spells still probably wins this, despite being crippled as a character afterwards)

not single use items. eternal wands or just normal wands are multiuse items.

[heavyfuel]

show a list of wealth shenanigans

Shenaningans don't work in a real game though, so your argument is invalid.


not single use items. eternal wands or just normal wands are multiuse items.

These are restricted to low level spells, so I doubt they would be much better than a VoP Wizard

[newguydude1]

These are restricted to low level spells, so I doubt they would be much better than a VoP Wizard

someone posted a invisible flying kobold sneak attacking with venomfire magic.

colossal animated object doing 8d6+13 a hit with duration concentration is a 3rd level spell.
11,800gp to buy a flying colossal animated object. not a spell, a +2 magic weapon. so nothing short of an amf is gonna stop it and he can buy 9.
stone golem costs 50,000gp. if it werent for that "half gp" limit he could get something much more expensive.


Shenaningans don't work in a real game though, so your argument is invalid.

thats like saying wizard is a balanced non-tier-1 character because in your definition of real game wish, gate, simulacrum, planar binding, etc. are all banned cause they're too powerful and therefore a shenanigan thus reducing a wizard to a tier 3 support role that cant do anything without a fighter to buff.

my dm allows me to use colossal animated objects at level 6 from the spell so unless my table is not a real game your wrong about that too.



theres also gating in a monster and just paying it in gold to do the deed which would take 1day/cl at most.

[heavyfuel]

someone posted a invisible flying kobold sneak attacking with venomfire magic.

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)



thats like saying wizard is a balanced non-tier-1 character because in your definition of real game wish, gate, simulacrum, planar binding, etc. are all banned cause they're too powerful and therefore a shenanigan thus reducing a wizard to a tier 3 support role that cant do anything without a fighter to buff.

That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

[newguydude1]

That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

no, candle of invocation is not exclusive to monk. all characters can use it. monk is tier 5 because naked he does nothing and unlike artificer he has no interaction with wealth.

i agree with your argument that single use magic items is probably not the way to go here unless you can buy a good deal of it like 50 or something so you can adventurer with it indefinitely without running into cash flow problems. but powerful permanent items or many use items are fair game even if they result in an army of colossal animated objects. because this is magic. and this magic is prevalent in d&d 3.5.

[SirNibbles]

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)



That's like saying the Monk is a Tier 1 class because they can buy a Candle of Invocation. Is this really the argument you're trying to make? Just because you have 9000gp it doesn't mean you will start chaining gates.

11 HP, thank you very much! (And you still have a bit of money to play with to get more). Also you can bump the Venomfire up to CL 9 to do an extra 1d6 (54,000 gp instead of 48,000).

I am not an expert on ToB, but I do believe that the Forsaker is going to struggle to hit an invisible enemy, especially since they can attack and then relocate. Unless you have a way to see them, none of your targeted strikes or maneuvers can be used.

__

[heavyfuel]

11 HP, thank you very much! (And you still have a bit of money to play with to get more). Also you can bump the Venomfire up to CL 9 to do an extra 1d6 (54,000 gp instead of 48,000).

I am not an expert on ToB, but I do believe that the Forsaker is going to struggle to hit an invisible enemy, especially since they can attack and then relocate. Unless you have a way to see them, none of your targeted strikes or maneuvers can be used.

__

Sorry about the missing 1HP :smallbiggrin:

Still, a swordsage can pinpoint you with Scent and Listen Checks and then attack whichever square you're at. You have 50% miss chance, sure, but that doesn't stop AoE (which they have access to)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)
You haven't actually shown your work. All you've done is complain that whatever solution is proposed 'doesn't prove anything' or is 'shenanigans' that would get banned/ignored. Show up with an actual 13th-level character with VoP and Forsaker 10, and let us see how you beat that kobold (or whatever else), or it doesn't prove anything. I believe you still have a riverine sphere to get through--and no, you can't just "pick it up", because obviously it's animated, invisible, flying, and I've just summoned 1d4+1 Huge elementals who are dying to sample your liver.

[heavyfuel]

All you've done is complain that whatever solution is proposed 'doesn't prove anything' or is 'shenanigans' that would get banned/ignored.

I've done nothing of the sort. It's not "whatever solution", just the ones that revolve around single use items of high level spells.

Anyone can pick a Candle of Invocation and RAW their way into infinite wishes. That doesn't mean that any character with 9000gp of wealth is, therefore, as powerful as a 17th level Wizard.

As for picking up your sphere, I'm pretty sure I can do that. Characters can grapple animated objects. As for the elementals, I'm assuming they'll only be around for a few rounds. Nothing that can't be avoided.

[Mechalich]

Okay, a Ring of Invisibility and Boots, Winged, gets you 15 minutes - 150 rounds, should be more than enough for any encounter - worth of invisible flight for a modest 36,000 gp together. That's far from the most economical way to approach the concept, but those are both permanent core items whose use should be unquestionable - and would be useful to pretty much any low-level character who had giant piles of gold. Most versions of a Forsaker are going to have a lot of difficulty putting down a flying, invisible character who does nothing but buzz around and unleash minions.

So, that leaves 74,000 gp worth of minion-generating items with which to kill the Forsaker. A few scrolls of Elemental Swarm or Summon Monster IX end things real quick. However, since scrolls are single-use items (though quite cheap, 74,000 gp would buy you 19, more than enough to rocket up quite a few levels), perhaps other options should be investigated.

A Wand of Summon Monster IV won't win the fight, but it offers a copious supply of cannon fodder to restrain the movement of the Forsaker and occupy their attacks, and hey, maybe you get lucky and get a poison hit through. Staff of Swarming Insects is a possibility, since depending on the Forsaker build in question Swarms might be quite difficult to deal with, though it would be a very slow whittling down indeed. Another idea would be dropping 42,000 gp for an Idol of the Dragon, Green, not all that powerful on its own, but continual breath weapon strafing amounts to something. A Rod of the Python (13,000 gp) gets you a Giant Constrictor Snake. None of these are really that good though. Just buying constructs straight up is probably better.

[CMagnum]

Wowee, thanks for all the suggestions everybody! I didn't expect this to be so popular.

Heavyfuel, thanks for the ideas and mentality of using things one would really use in a game instead of just one use magic items; I see where you are coming from. Even if some of the comments are a little demeaning (yes, I am nowhere near as versed in the game as many people on these boards are) I appreciate the input nonetheless. We are going to have a few attempts at this battle so no one can say "if I won initiative" or anything like that. I have a few builds (more like item selections) I had already come up with which I will use first, then get into some of you guys shenanigans if I somehow fail.

I'll let you guys know how it pans out, might not get to do this until Monday the 19th.

[awa]

Okay, a Ring of Invisibility and Boots, Winged, gets you 15 minutes - 150 rounds, should be more than enough for any encounter - worth of invisible flight for a modest 36,000 gp together. That's far from the most economical way to approach the concept, but those are both permanent core items whose use should be unquestionable - and would be useful to pretty much any low-level character who had giant piles of gold. Most versions of a Forsaker are going to have a lot of difficulty putting down a flying, invisible character who does nothing but buzz around and unleash minions.

So, that leaves 74,000 gp worth of minion-generating items with which to kill the Forsaker. A few scrolls of Elemental Swarm or Summon Monster IX end things real quick. However, since scrolls are single-use items (though quite cheap, 74,000 gp would buy you 19, more than enough to rocket up quite a few levels), perhaps other options should be investigated.

A Wand of Summon Monster IV won't win the fight, but it offers a copious supply of cannon fodder to restrain the movement of the Forsaker and occupy their attacks, and hey, maybe you get lucky and get a poison hit through. Staff of Swarming Insects is a possibility, since depending on the Forsaker build in question Swarms might be quite difficult to deal with, though it would be a very slow whittling down indeed. Another idea would be dropping 42,000 gp for an Idol of the Dragon, Green, not all that powerful on its own, but continual breath weapon strafing amounts to something. A Rod of the Python (13,000 gp) gets you a Giant Constrictor Snake. None of these are really that good though. Just buying constructs straight up is probably better.

This may be far less powerful than abusing high level spells through scrolls but it will also be far more compelling in convincing him that vow of poverty is weak rather than that a few broken spells exists

[Batcathat]

I'll let you guys know how it pans out, might not get to do this until Monday the 19th.

Sounds good. I'll be genuinely surprised if your friend just goes "Yeah, you were right" after you presumably win but I suppose people who change their opinions based on evidence actually exists. :smallamused:

[newguydude1]

This may be far less powerful than abusing high level spells through scrolls but it will also be far more compelling in convincing him that vow of poverty is weak rather than that a few broken spells exists

if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point. vop forsaker aint gonna do jack **** against the higher end monsters because vop doesnt do jack **** for anyone.

[Quertus]

Honestly, a 1 v 1 fight between a vow of poverty character and a level 1 character isn't even a good way, let alone the best way, to showcase the superiority of wealth in the game.

The most appropriate way is to take one character at level 1, and the other at whatever arbitrary level, and give the level 1 character the appropriate wealth, while giving the other character the vows and stuff. Make sure everything is actually written down. I would say to strike your point home harder, spend less than your wealth and just donate all the rest of the money to a library for the blind.

Next, have a third person run you through challenges from various different modules. You don't get any prep time, it's all just between you, the challenge, and what's on your paper. Don't bother putting all of the challenges together in some coherent format, just make them a gauntlet. Have some combat encounters, some non-combat, some traps, some environmental, etc. Take things from published modules and just have this third person pick them.

That should give you a good platform to showcase the versatility, power, and capabilities that items bring to the table, compared to someone who is literally prevented from using them. This is the better, and in my opinion best, metric to measure this sort of competition by, especially since it's not pitting players against each other in a combative way. it's a challenge gauntlet, which pits them against each other in a competitive way.

Strongly agree that this will give the most accurate results.


Yeah, and a Swordsage would eat this guy's 10HP for breakfast. (A similar argument can be made for any and all other suggestions that don't involve 9th level spells so far)

I am curious how Swordsage 3 deals with this.


We are going to have a few attempts at this battle so no one can say "if I won initiative" or anything like that. I have a few builds (more like item selections) I had already come up with which I will use first, then get into some of you guys shenanigans if I somehow fail.

Is "Improved Initiative Nerveskitter Sorcerer with Eager Warning weapon, for +16 to initiative (before Dex)" among them, to remove this "if I had won initiative" argument?

[awa]

if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point.

Also a good argument, the closer the comparison the more compelling it would be. The battle is killing a level 13 vop character the war is convincing him that vop is the problem.

Alternatively creating a character that very closely mimics what the vop character can do too show that you can simply buy all the relevant bonuses.

[SirNibbles]

Strongly agree that this will give the most accurate results.



I am curious how Swordsage 3 deals with this.



Is "Improved Initiative Nerveskitter Sorcerer with Eager Warning weapon, for +16 to initiative (before Dex)" among them, to remove this "if I had won initiative" argument?

Agreed that running a module is better than a 1v1.

__

Swordsage 3/Anything else 10 gets you 8th level Swordsage initiator level, i.e. up to 4th level Maneuvers. I guess the 2nd level maneuver, Hatchling's Flame (30 foot cone for 2d6 fire) could pose a threat if aimed in the right direction.

[Quertus]

Swordsage 3/Anything else 10 gets you 8th level Swordsage initiator level, i.e. up to 4th level Maneuvers. I guess the 2nd level maneuver, Hatchling's Flame (30 foot cone for 2d6 fire) could pose a threat if aimed in the right direction.

Oh. They could use feats to gain access to the higher level maneuvers. OK, that is a problem to consider.

The 30' cone of flame makes the sneak attack build really sad, particularly when coupled with held actions.

Not sure whether maneuvers make them more suitable for adventuring than the WBL character or not. Thoughts?

[GrayDeath]

that is the reason wealth beats levels. high level spell shenanigans butcher everything. wealth gives access to high level spell shenanigans.

its the main reason artificer is tier 0, higher than wizard. not because he makes vorpal weapons cheaper, but because he gets 9th level spells at level 7 with wealth.

Nope.

Artificer is only "Tier 1 and above" if:
All players/The DM go for RAW over everything
The World does not need to make sense in any way whatsoever
He has near unlimited Time
and his player TRULY knows his stuff.

otherwise, Artificer is somewhere between very low Tier 1 and high Tier 3, depending on restrictions, setting, and RAW/RAI rdebates.



if you want to convince him of that you just do vop monk vs wealth monk against a balor. one just dies the other has a magic item to counteract every single thing the balor can do.

this game isnt pvp so this is what the op should've been doing to prove his point. vop forsaker aint gonna do jack **** against the higher end monsters because vop doesnt do jack **** for anyone.

This however is a very good argument.

Duels are always very much suffering from the "Aha, you failed to prepare for X, which I have here, I win!" effect.

Instead let both of them run vs say 2 CR 5, 2 CR 9 and 2 CR 13 Encounters (one each Monster, one "NPC Humans", and then see who does better.
Cause otherwsie, all you are proofing is that your wealth can beat that specific character under the specific circumstances your Duel takes place under, and in no way "true" superiority.


Aside from the fact that the premise is a shaky one to begin with.

[Shirow]

This thread has been incredibly interesting and informative as a thought experiment. Can't wait to hear what the resolution will be.

Whether the VoP character is a Swordsage, monk or a Wizard; whether they do CR encounters, modules or PvP; whether the table allows "shenanigans" or "cheese"; there's still the matter of the individual skill level of the two players and their luck with their rolls during this contest. They would have to control for that by maybe going at this more than a few times, and perhaps even have other people of a similar skill level (with no access to this forum? idk) play the characters. Seems like an awful lot of work for bragging rights.

OP's friend probably has some sort of emotional investment on the VoP. I sort of get that, too bad it is probably gonna lose. :smallbiggrin: The money is good argument seems pretty bulletproof at this point. At least from a purely game mechanics perspective. (If I was their DM and that's the character the player wants to play, I'd do as the ToED says and reward the teammates for helping this person out, since the game is supposed to be cooperative, it seems like fun, and they're the ones supposed to be running the cool story. :smallwink:)

[newguydude1]

Nope.

nope.


Artificer is only "Tier 1 and above" if:
All players/The DM go for RAW over everything

you sound like using prestige class spell lists is the same as drown healing.


The World does not need to make sense in any way whatsoever

artificer making prestige class spell scrolls makes the world not make any sense whatsoever?


He has near unlimited Time

scrolls dont take that long to make


and his player TRULY knows his stuff.

this is the one valid thing you said in the list.


otherwise, Artificer is somewhere between very low Tier 1 and high Tier 3, depending on restrictions, setting, and RAW/RAI rdebates.

i remember the day i was convinced wealth beats levels. its when i read a thread on this forum about using wish to create mithral golems. it costs 5,000xp to make mithral golem. so wish + double creation xp = 15,000xp. so a 7th level artificer can bank his xp and not level up to 8, and use the 15,000xp (2 levels worth) to create a scroll of wish in 3? 4 days? and create a mithral golem.

then i saw unlimited runecrafter (runesmith?) rune of some spell that makes retrievers for hours or 10min/level, and a rune of elemental monolith. also made by wish. wish is used to cheat a prc class feature, not the cost.

the artificer isnt cheating xp cost in any way. hes paying the xp cost in full no discount and its still op as hell.

turning xp into wealth beats turning xp into levels. therefore wealth > levels.

[Quertus]

Net effect of this thread: Guy who wants to take VoP convinces the GM to buff VoP.

Which... isn't a terrible thing.

... say, for all the things that the Playground has attempted to create "fixed" versions of, has it ever fixed VoP? If not, should we make a thread for that?

[SirNibbles]

Net effect of this thread: Guy who wants to take VoP convinces the GM to buff VoP.

Which... isn't a terrible thing.

... say, for all the things that the Playground has attempted to create "fixed" versions of, has it ever fixed VoP? If not, should we make a thread for that?

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

[vasilidor]

my first thought was a way to be ethereal and have a wand of enervate.

[Crake]

so a 7th level artificer can bank his xp and not level up to 8, and use the 15,000xp (2 levels worth) to create a scroll of wish in 3? 4 days?

How exactly does a 7th level artificer meet the requirements to craft a scroll of wish though?

[Quertus]

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

OK, "True Namer" needs fixing, because it's just dysfunctional. That aside, most usage of the word "Fixing" in regard to 3e content around here means "rebalancing"; those words seem fairly synonymous in Playgrounder jargon. So, yes, I mean rebalancing (in the "all options are equal end goal" way).

Does the game need to have every option perfectly balanced? Of course not. We could all just play LA +8 Vampire Monks in parties with Tainted Sorerer Beholder Mages and call it a day. Or we could balance to the table, and use TO shenanigans to make the Vampire Monk balanced with the Low-Op VoP Tainted Beholder Mage (Wis 3 would be a fun anti-optimization there).

[ExLibrisMortis]

How exactly does a 7th level artificer meet the requirements to craft a scroll of wish though?
Wish nabbed from a Divine Crusader with the Envy domain, minimum CL 9, available to artificers at CL 7.

[Shirow]

Does it need fixing? Is VoP intended to allow someone with no wealth to be as powerful as someone with appropriate WBL or is it simply intended to allow you to add character flavor without suffering as horribly as you would without it?

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.:smallsmile:

[newguydude1]

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.:smallsmile:

id grab vow of poverty in a heartbeat it if didnt have the exalted good roleplay.

one thing vow of poverty does better than wealth is +8 to casting ability stat. go something that doesnt need anything like dweomerkeeper and you got a character that is stronger than fully equipped to the teeth wizards in some areas.

but no. exalted good will result in your death. because when a dragon is eating children at a child hospital he just busted down, you have to run in and try to save the children instead of hightailing it out of there. cause thats what an exalted good character would do. and since i would never do that with my character i cant grab vop.

[Quertus]

Indeed. I can't imagine someone soloing with this class, effectively. (But maybe that's just me?) In a party though, depending on how well it the VoP character can fulfill its role without pissing everyone else off, it might be OK as is. A party that gets +20%~+25% treasure sounds like a happy party to me. Even if they have to spend some time buffing or looking out for their friend's druid/paladin-like pesky restrictions.:smallsmile:

It doesn't though. You still take your share of the treasure, you just give it away to homeless orphans and stuff. So it is in no way a party buff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't though. You still take your share of the treasure, you just give it away to homeless orphans and stuff. So it is in no way a party buff.Weeeeell... If the party is considered a charity, given they take down evil and help those in need, you CAN donate your share to the cause...

It's one of the few bits of RAW that actually helps the party, rather than screwing them and yourself.

[Crake]

Weeeeell... If the party is considered a charity, given they take down evil and help those in need, you CAN donate your share to the cause...

It's one of the few bits of RAW that actually helps the party, rather than screwing them and yourself.

Pretty sure VoP specifically prohibits this mentality.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Pretty sure VoP specifically prohibits this mentality.Given that, oftentimes, the party is saving the lives of uncountable people against civilization-destroying horrors, donating that 180,000 gp to them will help a lot more people than donating the equivalent of Bill Gates's yearly income to the nearby orphanage. Though I do suppose those orphans will need to gain levels somehow, and giving little Timmy that +5 vorpal greatsword will undoubtedly help him clear out the local rat infestation.

[Shirow]

Pretty sure VoP specifically prohibits this mentality.

:smallbiggrin:
Well, drat.
Yeah. It's been a while since I read those books. . .

If the DM/party doesn't want to/doesn't know how to circumvent those extreme restrictions somehow (affiliate all of the party with a temple that works with the poor, and then donate the VoP char's part after reasonable expenses; use that share of the treasure/resources as a pooled petty cash box, until they get back to the temple, then refund the appropriate amount; idk) I can see how that VoP player is going to get kicked out of every party that's not composed entirely of paladins or real life ppl of the cloth or something.

But maybe that's the whole point of the BoED. Create kinda the polar opposite to groups who play evil adventuring parties? In which case, maybe the designers thought that creating any sort of overpowered mechanics-wise incentive to pick them would render the point moot.

Again, if they're inconveniencing other party members and putting them at risk, I'd say they are taking it too far. Though I am sure that will also make for some interesting roleplaying situations (since apparently the Atonement spell can't fix these things?).
"Do I use the magic item the monster just dropped to save all of my friends and lose all my powers irrevocably? Or do I risk letting them die?"
One of these choices results in a very useless party member, the other one in a very unpopular one; unless house-ruled somehow.

[ExLibrisMortis]

One of these choices results in a very useless party member, the other one in a very unpopular one; unless house-ruled somehow.
It's a fun ability, isn't it?

I houserule it to allow the player to use no more than 20% of WBL. It's a large reduction in WBL that doesn't totally preclude the acquisition of some critical items (e.g. flight). It's still not a brilliant deal, but it helps. A variant would be to allow only Ancestral Relic, which would be 50% of WBL, but spent on a single item, so you pay a lot of x1.5 cost modifiers for combined item and unusual slot modifiers. You'd end up with characters using only a +1 soulfire (as bracers of armour) phoenix (as phoenix cloak) vestments of warding (as cowl of warding), or something, for ~368 750 gp.

[GrayDeath]

If VoP offered access to Flight, did not require Exalted Good (ergo say its available for all fully lawful beings) and its actual restrictions were worded more clearly and a wee bit less restrictive, it would stillb e worse than having full wealth, but be a valid alternative if one wants all ones power come from one self (ergo be "unstealable", yeah, you, rogue, you! Its all your fault^^!).

Which is why we use a 3parted VoP in our games.

The first Vow reduces one to use no more than 4 magic items and "necessary" one use items (ergo when someone would die otherwise, or at least it would be very likely, li,ke if going into a dragons lair unbuffed). They have to sdonate 33% of their Wealth.
This version only gives the Stat Boosts.

The Second reduces one to at most one set of Armor and one weapon OR 2 other magic items, and removes Singe Usage Items except Healing Potions and similar from being usable FOR THE CHARACTER. They have to donate 66% of their Wealth.
This Version gives additional AC Bonuses, half the Bonus Feats, and Flight from level 7 onwards (boosted every 3 Lervels to max of 150ft/Good at 20).

And finally the third one: prohibits all regular magical items, allows one ancestral Artifact, otherwise same equipment restrictions as VoP. You must donate 95% of your Money.
Adds the missing bonuses, and gains the VoP Character either 2 domains and one slot (one alignment Domain, one other) if not a full caster, or grants a permanent +2 CL Bonus to 2 Schools if Full caster.

And all of them have CLEAR definitions of what you can and cannot do without breaking your vow (ergo no debate if opening a Door breaks it^^).

Worked pretty well the alst few times. Not overpowered, but fully palyable.

[ciopo]

I'm very curious about the result too.

Anyway, my 2 cent : no need really for any fancy plan, just post a bounty for the death of the forsaker. for 110k I'd expect to forsaker to be death within the hour from some random competent adventurers group that outlevels the forsaker and will enjoy the easy money :)

[ATHATH]

I'm very curious about the result too.

Anyway, my 2 cent : no need really for any fancy plan, just post a bounty for the death of the forsaker. for 110k I'd expect to forsaker to be death within the hour from some random competent adventurers group that outlevels the forsaker and will enjoy the easy money :)
Or an Chaotic-aligned party could decide that ganking a level 1 character would be much easier and faster than ganking a level 13 one...

Plus, if this guy has VoP, he has to be Exalted Good, which would make many people hesitate to follow through on the contract.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

VoP only requires you to donate the "majority" of your wealth. Let's call it 60%-70%. If you give the rest to your party, each one is still getting a sizeable +10% WBL. That's probably enough to earn some goodwill. Though the vow could definitely use some rules patches, allowing for (e.g.) using other people's healing potions on dying people.

[Sutr]

On the 13th level character the drow and dwarf domains can let a cleric of any race into the forsaker class after first level. Also grants turning which should be usable with devotion feats So r.ace for these types of things can maybe help. Dragonborn Raptoran for good senses and flight. 2 levels of swordsage on the end.

You could also just not take VOP until 12th level and get grafts. You loose the exalted feats but they weren't great? The horrible illithid/fiendish experiments that the character endured made it retrain into a forsaker. Could help the poor 13 level character out.

YMMV

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm with heavyfuel on this one. The stuff that can be pulled to make beating one of the weakest level 13 characters possible with a level 1 are all far enough afield to be dismissed as unreasonable, cheesy nonsense.

OP straight-up overstated the magnitude of his point. He could have slammed the point home with a 6th level character vs the 13th level, VoP forsaker. I don't think there's anything the lvl 13 could do that couldn't be -reasonably- countered in that case; nothing crazy, just being straight-up a better, more well-rounded character of half the other guy's level, using the wealth he's turned down. That's a setup that would shine even harder as competing characters in a same game test than in a 1v1 duel too.

Who decided X 3/ forsaker 10, anyway? That's just -really- bad even -with- wealth and the WBL-fu to make the most of it.

[Quertus]

Run the challenge yet?

Convinced them to "Same Game Test" the challenge?

Got a build yet?

[CMagnum]

Sorry for the wait everyone. Due to a few personal problems I don't want to explain we have not been able to run the test as we had planned.

What we did do however was get a look at each other's sheets (I had 3 prepared) and
Talk theoretically about what would happen if we ran it. He would basically need to win initiative and start within striking range of me to have a chance of winning its what we came up with.

I would have won with flight and magic missile. I would have won with spammed monsters as a buffer. I would have won with greater invisibility and anything.

My point has been made to him. He agrees that anything I built specifically to kill him would have, and that many things will be more effective than him.

Sorry it took so long, I was hoping for a more eventful outcome. If we eventually run this I will update for sure.

His build was Monk2/forsaker10/swordsage1 just for sake of the argument. I can try to upload a picture of his character sheet next time I see him.

[CMagnum]

And to reply to Kelb, it was my friends idea to play a forsaker character to play in an upcoming level 13campaign. The whole argument came up because I was trying to dissuade him from doing that.

[AnimeTheCat]

And to reply to Kelb, it was my friends idea to play a forsaker character to play in an upcoming level 13campaign. The whole argument came up because I was trying to dissuade him from doing that.

If the game that you were playing in would have been fine for the Forsaker (i.e. the DM said that the character was fine), then this was really a nonsensical exercise.

Granted, the player may not have known that the choice was suboptimal, but who cares. The point is to have fun and if the group had fun, then mission accomplished. You don't have to play top-tier optimal characters to have fun.

[Quertus]

If the game that you were playing in would have been fine for the Forsaker (i.e. the DM said that the character was fine), then this was really a nonsensical exercise.

Granted, the player may not have known that the choice was suboptimal, but who cares. The point is to have fun and if the group had fun, then mission accomplished. You don't have to play top-tier optimal characters to have fun.

Yeah, had a VoP Forsaker in one of my parties once. It worked fine, iirc. It's just a matter of how optimized the group is (and what power range y'all play).

[AnimeTheCat]

Yeah, had a VoP Forsaker in one of my parties once. It worked fine, iirc. It's just a matter of how optimized the group is (and what power range y'all play).

Isn't the saying, or a saying at least, something to the effect of, "balance to the table not the system"?

Regardless, just make sure you're not ruining someone else's fun unless their fun directly ruins yours, at which point discuss it and come to a middle ground that lets you both have fun. If no middle ground can be had on the topic, find new ground that you can agree on and forget the old ground.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If the game that you were playing in would have been fine for the Forsaker (i.e. the DM said that the character was fine), then this was really a nonsensical exercise.

Granted, the player may not have known that the choice was suboptimal, but who cares. The point is to have fun and if the group had fun, then mission accomplished. You don't have to play top-tier optimal characters to have fun.
It has nothing to do with "optimal". It has to do with "living up to expectations". If the player wants a powerful anti-magic juggernaut, Forsaker does not do that, even at lower optimization levels. If the player expects and looks forward to something Forsaker does not do, and you know that, it's worth sharing your insight. I imagine that CMagnum knew what their fellow player was expecting, and knew that it wouldn't work out with Forsaker levels.

I mean, the books are absolutely horrible at telling you what works and what doesn't (even to the point of misrepresenting class features, sometimes). The Forsaker class description, for example, says: "By depending upon his own resources alone, the forsaker becomes stronger, tougher, smarter, and more nimble than any of his companions". It's wrong, but anyone reading up on Forsaker could think "oh boy, this is awesome, and look, the book says it's powerful, too". It's easy to get disappointed after that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And to reply to Kelb, it was my friends idea to play a forsaker character to play in an upcoming level 13campaign. The whole argument came up because I was trying to dissuade him from doing that.

Forsaker by itself is a tough row to hoe but it -can- be done. Same for VoP. It was the particular combination that Forsaker and VoP that struck me as a ridiculous idea.

Losing access to magic items is a big deal you've got to use other resources to make up for it; either spend your wealth other ways or use class and feat options. Wealth is off the table for a VoP character and forsaker 10 leaves no room for class features even if forsaker 1 wouldn't forbid them anyway. Any forsaker cuts a lot of more powerful feat options too. I'd go so far as to say it might actually dip below even the pretty shockingly minimal expectations of WotC for capability.

I'm getting ready to play a forsaker in the nearish future and I'm perfectly comfortable with a VoP character with a whole host of builds but BOTH?

[AnimeTheCat]

It has nothing to do with "optimal". It has to do with "living up to expectations". If the player wants a powerful anti-magic juggernaut, Forsaker does not do that, even at lower optimization levels. If the player expects and looks forward to something Forsaker does not do, and you know that, it's worth sharing your insight. I imagine that CMagnum knew what their fellow player was expecting, and knew that it wouldn't work out with Forsaker levels.

I mean, the books are absolutely horrible at telling you what works and what doesn't (even to the point of misrepresenting class features, sometimes). The Forsaker class description, for example, says: "By depending upon his own resources alone, the forsaker becomes stronger, tougher, smarter, and more nimble than any of his companions". It's wrong, but anyone reading up on Forsaker could think "oh boy, this is awesome, and look, the book says it's powerful, too". It's easy to get disappointed after that.

Except none of that is what the OP listed. Here's the first sentence of the thread,


So I was having an argument with a friend about vow of poverty and how much money impacts the game.
This has nothing to do with Forsaker, and everything to do with VoP and WBL.

Vow of Poverty can work at even most tables, I would figure. For the most part, it's not a "weak" feat, especially when taken on a spellcaster or with a character that can innately cover its own weaknesses. It is, however, a sub-optimal feat because it doesn't match the flexibility of raw wealth. I would suggest, however, that characters are not intended to simply have raw wealth and are intended to acquire wealth via magic items or other loot from dungeons, encounters, etc. so in that context, VoP may be better, because you know you'll get deflection, natural armor, ability score, resistance, etc increases at regular intervals. That simply isn't guaranteed to be the case for a "vanilla" character. It's assumed, but not guaranteed.

As for expectation management, the only reason that something won't work as the player expects it is if the DM is doing so intentionally. If the DM is following the rules for CR and is creating creatures with class levels using same-similar methods that the PCs used (elite array or same value point-buy), a Forsaker is going to do just fine. People like to throw a Shadow around as over CR, but it's really not. It's a CR 3 creature, and pretty much any party of level 3 PCs can handle it. By level 3, the fighter has a magic weapon. By level 3, the rogue has a collection of useable magic items they've collected via loot or purchased. By level 3, level 1 spell slots are less of a precious resource. It's challenging for some party compositions, but it's not the party slayer that everyone claims it to be.

I am not familiar with Forsaker, so I can't speak to it specifically, but I would be surprised if it was as useless as everyone claims it is when you put it in a party with 3 other characters and send the party up against an appropriate level encounter.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Except none of that is what the OP listed. Here's the first sentence of the thread
And here is the OP's follow-up:

And to reply to Kelb, it was my friends idea to play a forsaker character to play in an upcoming level 13campaign. The whole argument came up because I was trying to dissuade him from doing that.
It has everything to do with Forsaker. Yes, VoP has its part, of course, but crucially we were discussing magic items all through the thread.


As for expectation management, the only reason that something won't work as the player expects it is if the DM is doing so intentionally. If the DM is following the rules for CR and is creating creatures with class levels using same-similar methods that the PCs used (elite array or same value point-buy), a Forsaker is going to do just fine.
That's just... so wrong. You're basically saying that anything is balanced if the DM is following the CR rules, and any imbalance/underperformance is the DM's fault, which is both inaccurate (the CR rules aren't precise, and some classes are just that weak, and sometimes player expectations really don't match the class' abilities) and completely unfair to the DM (who can't be blamed for bad class design or player expectations, and who may well be balancing to the rest of the party, with the Forsaker falling behind). It's shockingly naive to think everything will just be fine and dandy if you follow the rules and don't complain.


I am not familiar with Forsaker [...]
Perhaps you should read the actual class, then.