question on simulacrum

[Raishoiken]

Is there any reason a 20th level sorcerer casting simulacrum couldn't make a level 9 duplicate of themselves that had was at the halfway point to getting level 10 (keeping in mind that the duplicate can't gain more xp afterward)?

[Darg]

Nope, it's level 10. If you want to reduce it below the level, you have 2 options. Level loss brings it to the half way point. Spending XP in some way such as casting a spell is the other. The only variable thing about the spell is the maximum ECL creature you can duplicate so even if you reduce the caster level it will always be "level + 0 xp."

[Raishoiken]

Nope, it's level 10. If you want to reduce it below the level, you have 2 options. Level loss brings it to the half way point. Spending XP in some way such as casting a spell is the other. The only variable thing about the spell is the maximum ECL creature you can duplicate so even if you reduce the caster level it will always be "level + 0 xp."

My primary issue rn is that in most cases it seems like you can't burn enough xp to lose a level, spellcasting actually being a primary example

[newguydude1]

My primary issue rn is that in most cases it seems like you can't burn enough xp to lose a level, spellcasting actually being a primary example

you burn it by getting negative levels and intentionally failing the saving throw.

[redking]

Simulacrums have levels or Hit Dice but don't have XP.

[Darg]

Simulacrums have levels or Hit Dice but don't have XP.

Is there a basis for this? HD do not have progression; however, levels do. Levels are gradients for the amount of XP you need to progress. NPCs have levels and therefore have the ability to progress with XP. DMs don't usually bother to keep track of every little NPC.

Simulacrum only states that it can't increase its level, not that it can't decrease. If they do not have XP then that means they can bypass XP costs just like other NPCs that don't possess an XP pool.

[sreservoir]

Well, certainly nothing in the spell description gives it the exact amount of XP it would need to be at the halfway point to some level. Nothing in the spell description mentions XP at all. You might argue in the direction that duplicate duplicates the XP total of the creature it duplicates (but doesn't level up because it explicitly can't level), perhaps?

[Crichton]

bypass XP costs just like other NPCs that don't possess an XP pool.

Not to sidetrack the discussion, but is there a citation or basis for this, or is this just an assumption? It seems just as valid an assumption, perhaps even more valid, to state that without an XP pool, the NPC in question simply can't do anything at all that requires XP, rather than giving them carte blanche to bypass all XP costs

(the only thing I can think of offhand that even mentions expendable XP for npcs is that deities have an 'allowance' of 30k xp per week for crafting and casting)

[Darg]

Well, certainly nothing in the spell description gives it the exact amount of XP it would need to be at the halfway point to some level. Nothing in the spell description mentions XP at all. You might argue in the direction that duplicate duplicates the XP total of the creature it duplicates (but doesn't level up because it explicitly can't level), perhaps?

It has a level that is half of the level of the creature it duplicates. There are no fractional levels and D&D stipulates that one should round down. So a level 19 character would have a level 9 simulacrum. Level 9 is 36000 XP.


For any character (including a multiclass one), XP
determines overall character level, not individual class levels.

XP determines level, as far as I know you can't have one without the other.


A dragon typically has a cushion of 100 to 600 XP
times its spellcaster level. It can use these XP in spellcasting
without risking the loss of a level.

The Draconomicon seems to imply that creatures can lose levels, even HD as CL, from casting spells. I've never read anything about creatures with levels (all of them) that don't have XP.


Not to sidetrack the discussion, but is there a citation or basis for this, or is this just an assumption? It seems just as valid an assumption, perhaps even more valid, to state that without an XP pool, the NPC in question simply can't do anything at all that requires XP, rather than giving them carte blanche to bypass all XP costs

(the only thing I can think of offhand that even mentions expendable XP for npcs is that deities have an 'allowance' of 30k xp per week for crafting and casting)

Characters have XP. The DM might be too lazy/it has no real relevance to be kept track of. Even magical constructs are Non-Player Characters.

[newguydude1]

npcs dont have xp. even hireling adventurers dont have xp and the dmg2 directly tells you to fire them and hire a better one as you level up.

xp is not relevant at all to simulacra unless you want to cheese free wishes out of it.

if a creature has a negative level and loses the fort save it loses hd. xp or no it doesnt matter. if a simulacrum fails the negative level fort save it loses its hd aka level. if a pit fiend fails the negative level fort save it loses its hd aka racial level.

[redking]

Is there a basis for this?

A simulacrum is an NPC is but only "partially real".


Simulacrum only states that it can't increase its level, not that it can't decrease. If they do not have XP then that means they can bypass XP costs just like other NPCs that don't possess an XP pool.

"A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities". XP is an abstraction, and simulacrums cannot earn XP. A simulacrum starts with 0XP and that never changes.

[Darg]

npcs dont have xp. even hireling adventurers dont have xp and the dmg2 directly tells you to fire them and hire a better one as you level up.

xp is not relevant at all to simulacra unless you want to cheese free wishes out of it.

if a creature has a negative level and loses the fort save it loses hd. xp or no it doesnt matter. if a simulacrum fails the negative level fort save it loses its hd aka level. if a pit fiend fails the negative level fort save it loses its hd aka racial level.

The DMG says nothing about hirelings not having xp. They only don't gain experience because of their role within the party. Simulacrum gets half levels or HD. A simulacrum of a 20th level Wizard is going to be a 10th level wizard. HD also count as levels for character levels.


A simulacrum is an NPC is but only "partially real".



"A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities". XP is an abstraction, and simulacrums cannot earn XP. A simulacrum starts with 0XP and that never changes.

That "partially real" is the reason why it possesses the original creature's stats and abilities at half level. Levels are also an abstraction that can also be stated as levels of experience. Levels are simply break points that allow easier management of progression compared to keeping track of everything you do.

Tell me this, where does it say that levels/HD don't signify the possession of XP? The inability to gain something doesn't preclude possession or loss.

[newguydude1]

The DMG says nothing about hirelings not having xp. They only don't gain experience because of their role within the party. Simulacrum gets half levels or HD. A simulacrum of a 20th level Wizard is going to be a 10th level wizard. HD also count as levels for character levels.

dmg2 not dmg.


That "partially real" is the reason why it possesses the original creature's stats and abilities at half level. Levels are also an abstraction that can also be stated as levels of experience. Levels are simply break points that allow easier management of progression compared to keeping track of everything you do.

Tell me this, where does it say that levels/HD don't signify the possession of XP? The inability to gain something doesn't preclude possession or loss.

by definition la:- monsters cannot receive xp.

[Darg]

dmg2 not dmg.

I'm still not finding anything that says hirelings don't possess XP.


by definition la:- monsters cannot receive xp.

By definition "not being able to receive" does not mean "does not already possess" or "incapable of loss of possession." The Draconomicon as I already quoted says that it's possible for dragons to lose levels from casting spells. The only way to do that is to purposely harm themselves or expending costs. Which one is the more logical of the two?

[unseenmage]

There is a spell and magic item that let's you buy xp from NPCs. Leadership cohorts explicitly gain xp. Of course NPCs have xp. They just dont gain it using the PC progression charts. Just like they have ages and heights and weights that vary from individual to individual.


As for Sim..
As it has an Instantaneous duration then just like Wall of Stone the effect generated by Simulacrum is a real thing. Emphasizing the 'partially real' part of the spell description doesnt give us any RAW to utilize and is just an excuse for lazy GMs to make stuff up in an attempt to limit an otherwise absolutely broken spell.

You should be able to make a weaker version of a high level character with Sim. In several ways.

Number one: Just use a hair from your weaker self.
Number two: Go back in time and Sim the old you.
Number three: Sim the Sim itself. It IS a creature. A Simulacrum could be made of another Simulacrum.

As mentioned the Simulacrum spell is probably the most broken spell in the game. Do not use it in real games. Otherwise it winds up being the hammer that solves all the problems.

That said, it can be fun to theoretically optimize with.

Remember too it is NOT a Construct, it explicitly gains the original's creature type.
It IS alive if the original was alive. No reason to assume otherwise is given beyond that flimsy 'partially real' non-rules justification.
It DOES have at least part of the original's memories. 2nd edition IIRC gave a % roll for just which memories it retained. This text didnt survive the conversion to 3.x. I suggest a 50/50 chance it knows any relevant info and just keep notes on what it knows.

Appearing naked and confused your Simulacrum doesnt necessarily know it even is a Sim when created. Having a spellcaster standing over it giving it unignorable commands is probably the first clue though. Even a Sim of a spellcaster is going to have half the skill points the original did to identify the lingering magic aura from the casting of the spell that created it.

Lastly, if you REALLY want to divide by zero. Cast Simulacrum on an Intelligent Magic Item or a Figuring of Wondrous Power and see what happens. The Int Magic Item is technically a Construct but has no HD. And the FoWP transforms into an actual animal for a set duration.

[NigelWalmsley]

NPCs very obviously have XP. Maybe some monsters don't, but e.g. classed NPCs (such as the Sorcerer Simulacrum in question) obviously do. The fundamental nature of the character doesn't change just because it's controlled by the DM instead of someone else.