Jump as an Invocation?

[Citadel97501]

Is there any issue with having the spell Jump (PHB 254) as an at will invocation, this would still cost your action? I have been playing a lot of Baldur's Gate 3 for the last few days, and I kept thinking it would be handy if that spell didn't cost a spell slot?

I personally don't see any issues with this, but I thought I would check if anyone else saw a problem?

[Amnestic]

The Ring of Jumping lets you cast it at will as a bonus action and is an Uncommon magic item. Invocations are pretty premium, if I were to have one that involved Jump I'd want something else on top of it since it's kinda niche. Maybe bake in Longstrider at the same time?

[Valmark]

Isn't it already an invocation? What am I missing?

[Citadel97501]

Isn't it already an invocation? What am I missing?

Derp your right but some jack ass made it a level 9 invocation? Seriously, WTH?

[Valmark]

Derp your right but some jack ass made it a level 9 invocation? Seriously, WTH?

Yeah it's not really an invocation you're taking unless you need it for flavor- I personally wouldn't take it even at level 2.

Unless I'm trying to make something akin to a Dragoon from Final Fantasy, I guess.

[Jerrykhor]

Is jump still the same in Baldurs Gate 3?

[BoxANT]

Boots of Striding and Springing

don't have to wait until level 9 for at will jump

[cutlery]

Jump ought to be an unrestricted invocation available at level 2; on top of that, it should be always-on rather than require an action or bonus action to cast.

People would still swap that out for levitate later, unless there is a strong thematic reason not to do so.

[MaxWilson]

Derp your right but some jack made it a level 9 invocation? Seriously, WTH?

My personal belief is that they made it level 9 before they finished writing the jumping rules. Evidence: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/__trashed-4/

Crawford calls at-will Jump "effectively a speed increase" at one point before backtracking and claiming he meant something else that makes no sense. I think the truth is that the Jump invocation was written back before jumping cost normal movement, so that it _was_ effectively a speed increase, and Crawford hadn't fully processed the implications, he was just going off a vague memory. (He should have just admitted that instead of making up bogus explanations after but oh well.)

Anyway, either lower the level or change Jump. Would be straightforward to say "every foot of movement you spend while jumping carries you three feet." That would make warlocks VERY mobile with this invocation, fully justifying the 9th level requirement.

[Mr Adventurer]

Boots of Striding and Springing

don't have to wait until level 9 for at will jump

True - but they do stack.

[Vogie]

I mean, yes, it does stink as an invocation at first glance. "Jump? Really?"

But remember, it's at-will at all times. Not just when you are in combat. There's a reason that Fiendish Vigor, for example isn't looked at as "well you can gain 1d4+4 THP during battle", it's looked at as "You start every encounter with 8 THP" - it's understood that you'd just keep casting it, over and over again, until you got all 8 THP when you're out of combat.

Otherworldly Leap is similar - you aren't waiting to use your ACTION in INITIATIVE ORDER to use it - you're casting it all the damn time. You basically have Jump enchanting you at all times, because it's assumed that you're casting it on yourself every minute, maybe moreso, while you're not incapacitated.

Now, look again at the Jump rules - the rules rules, not the spell - that reference that both long and high jumping is based off one's Strength Score or Modifier (respectively). And guess what warlocks tend to have very little of? Strength. If it's not a dump stat it's usually close to being that. Yes, yes, there are those first-level-fighter warlocks and Barbarian-locks and Lockadins, but I'm talking just Warlocks. Even Hexblades, who have access to better-than-light-armor, typically eschew Strength.

So if you take a Warlock with a Str of, say, 10, and give it Jump and guess what you get? A Warlock that can long-jump their entire speed, or High jump HIGHER than the average thing with 20 Strength (because 0+3x3 is 9 ft, while 3+5 is a measly 8 ft). It's Otherworldly alright, with this blaster and/or blade-wielder soaring through the air with the greatest of ease. Chase them across rooftops, have them parkour the **** out of everything... because they're effectively flying. With the caveat of being able to do so in one direction, after moving 10 ft on the ground and having to land in between. God forbid they pick up the Athlete feat, making the jumps of otherworldlyness go even further.

Is it worth it all the time? No. It's very campaign specific. But, to be fair, so is Ascendant Step (at-will self-Levitate) and Master of Myriad Forms (that's the Alter Self at-will). If you're running across a city skyline, or going branch to branch in a dense canopy, Otherworldly Leap is suddenly incredibly useful. If you're worried about falling out of things, or have many, many walls to scale, Ascendant Step is more your jam.

[Mr Adventurer]

it's understood that you'd just keep casting it, over and over again, until you got all 8 THP when you're out of combat.

Otherworldly Leap is similar - you aren't waiting to use your ACTION in INITIATIVE ORDER to use it - you're casting it all the damn time. You basically have Jump enchanting you at all times, because it's assumed that you're casting it on yourself every minute, maybe moreso, while you're not incapacitated.

I actually hate this'understanding' and never use it nor allow it to go unchallenged at my tables. Stopping whatever you're doing to take a few seconds to do something else every single minute is simply an absurd proposition. But I get other people are wedded to it so I don't argue the case online. I just wanted the alternative viewpoint out there.



So if you take a Warlock with a Str of, say, 10, and give it Jump and guess what you get? A Warlock that can long-jump their entire speed

Not quite, because you need a 10 foot run up to get your max jump distance, which also comes out of your speed.

[micahaphone]

This is why I get frustrated with the finer details of the movement rules sometimes. Tabaxi are supposed to be naturally skilled climbers and yet their natural climb ability is only 5 ft more than a human. Things that magically expand your jump abilities don't work how you think they would based on reading them because there's an inconsistent limiter on your jumping power. Seems like only monks and partially also barbarians will ever be able to RAW make use of any Jump spell or boots of springing/striding, as anyone else with a decent strength score will hit the wall of their movement speed limit.

I ignore that bit of RAW and don't limit jump height/distance on prior movement. I have yet to see a player abuse this at all, if it becomes a problem ever I can lean on RAW but honestly there's so much more for players to exploit I don't think people eking out some more distance from jumps to be tbe worst thing.

[Mr Adventurer]

This is why I get frustrated with the finer details of the movement rules sometimes. Tabaxi are supposed to be naturally skilled climbers and yet their natural climb ability is only 5 ft more than a human. Things that magically expand your jump abilities don't work how you think they would based on reading them because there's an inconsistent limiter on your jumping power. Seems like only monks and partially also barbarians will ever be able to RAW make use of any Jump spell or boots of springing/striding, as anyone else with a decent strength score will hit the wall of their movement speed limit.

I ignore that bit of RAW and don't limit jump height/distance on prior movement. I have yet to see a player abuse this at all, if it becomes a problem ever I can lean on RAW but honestly there's so much more for players to exploit I don't think people eking out some more distance from jumps to be tbe worst thing.

Dash is usually how to do it.

Str 10, speed 30, Jump spell = move 10, jump 20
Str 10, speed 30+30 Dash, Jump spell = move 10, jump 30, move 20 (or jump again I suppose)

[Vogie]

Not quite, because you need a 10 foot run up to get your max jump distance, which also comes out of your speed.

Yes, all parts of jumping is part of the jumping process. Which is why I later mentioned that the Athlete Feat would reduce this even more.

That being said, your non-running standing long jump speed is still tripled, not just your high and running long jump speed. If you have a speed of 30 and a Str mod of +0, your standing long jump is 15 ft... So you can just hop twice for your entire speed without a 10 ft run.

Hippity hoppity, Eldritchy Blastity.

[Satori01]

This is why I get frustrated with the finer details of the movement rules sometimes. Tabaxi are supposed to be naturally skilled climbers and yet their natural climb ability is only 5 ft more than a human.


As an amateur rock climber, in real world terms a 5' faster climbing speed is an immense advantage, especially on treacherous climbs.

If you move Otherworldly Leap to being much lower then 9th level you open the Invocation up to Monks stacking Otherworldly Leap with Step of the Wind.

(I once removed the level requirement from the Invocation and allowed both abilities to stack).

It was the only time I have seen a Monk/Warlock multi-class.....the party called the character "Iron Dome"...they were constantly jumping up and Stun Punching flying creatures out of the sky.

If you are OK with that, it is really fun to watch!

[micahaphone]

As an amateur rock climber, in real world terms a 5' faster climbing speed is an immense advantage, especially on treacherous climbs.

If you move Otherworldly Leap to being much lower then 9th level you open the Invocation up to Monks stacking Otherworldly Leap with Step of the Wind.

(I once removed the level requirement from the Invocation and allowed both abilities to stack).

It was the only time I have seen a Monk/Warlock multi-class.....the party called the character "Iron Dome"...they were constantly jumping up and Stun Punching flying creatures out of the sky.

If you are OK with that, it is really fun to watch!

Fair enough, it just feels like a false selling point on tabaxi.

And I would be 100% okay with that, investing into a tough multiclass in order to do some really kickass moves. Our punch shall pierce the heavens!

[Neorealist]

Otherworldly Leap: *sadinvocationnoises*

I like the theory that it's an artifact from a time in play-testing where jumping was similar to teleport in that it didn't require movement but moved the character to the location jumped to.

[Chugger]

I know of no player who has ever seriously considered taking the Jump invocation. In AL there is almost no need or use for it at all, unless you have a DM who is known for designing most rooms like parkour courses - then and only then can I think it'd be worth doing. In AL you can get a Broom of Flying at tier one (lvl 1 to 4) - it drops in several CCC modules. Boots of flying also drop.

Detect Magic at will could be useful, but there are frankly better uses for invo's - a non-warlock caster should be taking det magic.

The ones I almost always start w/ are Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight (because I'm often a variant human) - unless I'm a hexblade meleer, then I pick the melee combat ones - certainly the extra attack one at lvl 5 - might still pick dev sight and cheese darkness.

Can anyone think of a real use for Jump at Will? As others have said, you can get the ring of jumping. Boots of Striding and springing are mainly sought after because they allow you to wear hvy armor but ignore your low str, i.e. no mvmt rate penalty for non dwarves. Good for clerics who want plate but the build doesn't let them go to 15 str.

[Segev]

If your jump exceeds your move, you can just do what 3e did: have the jump continue into the next round's movement. It's a little wonky to imagine the guy hanging in mid-air, but if you remember that he's not really paused when it's not his turn, anybody who attacks him in that time just caught him while he was jumping through that space.

[Neorealist]

Can anyone think of a real use for Jump at Will?

Annoy your DM and delight your party by explaining how you need to dramatically leap at every possible pretext. So no, not really. At least not in a context that wouldn't be better served by one of many other tools at the warlocks' disposal.

[Luccan]

The biggest advantage of Jump at-will (assuming no superior vertical movement options, including items that essentially do the same thing) is not having to waste a spell known or prepared on Jump, which I've never seen cast in 5e in the first place.

Edit: It would probably be more useful if it wasn't a self-only target. At least then it's a unique movement buff for the party as a whole.

[Segev]

The biggest advantage of Jump at-will (assuming no superior vertical movement options, including items that essentially do the same thing) is not having to waste a spell known or prepared on Jump, which I've never seen cast in 5e in the first place.

Edit: It would probably be more useful if it wasn't a self-only target. At least then it's a unique movement buff for the party as a whole.

I mean, if you've never seen jump cast in 5e, and it's thus a waste of a spell, why on earth would you waste an Invocation on it?

[Luccan]

I mean, if you've never seen jump cast in 5e, and it's thus a waste of a spell, why on earth would you waste an Invocation on it?

Kinda my point, but not exactly clear in text form now that I read it again.

[Mr Adventurer]

If your jump exceeds your move, you can just do what 3e did: have the jump continue into the next round's movement. It's a little wonky to imagine the guy hanging in mid-air, but if you remember that he's not really paused when it's not his turn, anybody who attacks him in that time just caught him while he was jumping through that space.

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure the rules support this (or otherwise), so it's something the DM would need to rule on?

Also creates weird cases like jump → end turn mid jump → your next turn → move in a different direction?

[Chugger]

Annoy your DM and delight your party by explaining how you need to dramatically leap at every possible pretext. So no, not really. At least not in a context that wouldn't be better served by one of many other tools at the warlocks' disposal.

Heh, I think that's it!

[Segev]

I know what you mean, but I'm not sure the rules support this (or otherwise), so it's something the DM would need to rule on?

Also creates weird cases like jump → end turn mid jump → your next turn → move in a different direction?

I don’t know if 5e mentions how to handle jumping past your move distance at all. But yes, I was recommending a DM ruling or house rule solution. No reason to assume you can change directions mid-air just because you split the jump over multiple turns. I’d rule you must complete the jump.

The only place this gets weird is if your jump takes the movement of part of three or more turns; the idea that you can choose to dash or not while in mid-air and that will determine how fast you complete your jump is weird, but enough of a corner case that I think a DM call on a case-by-case basis is fine. Even a little inconsistency here probably won’t hurt anything.

[DwarfFighter]

Otherworldly Leap is similar - you aren't waiting to use your ACTION in INITIATIVE ORDER to use it - you're casting it all the damn time. You basically have Jump enchanting you at all times, because it's assumed that you're casting it on yourself every minute, maybe moreso, while you're not incapacitated.


Here's a challenge: Use your phone and set a 60 second countdown. Each time the alarm goes off, set a new 60 second countdown. Imagine that while the clock is counting down you can jump really far. Now, try to live your life and interact with friends, family and co-workers. Try to eat a meal, watch a show, raid a crack-house with the rest of the SWAT team, drive a car, buy milk.

It seems like a lot of effort to gain a benefit that is only occasionally beneficial. Also, you will appear to be INSANE with an obsessive compulsion.

-DF

[Segev]

Here's a challenge: Use your phone and set a 60 second countdown. Each time the alarm goes off, set a new 60 second countdown. Imagine that while the clock is counting down you can jump really far. Now, try to live your life and interact with friends, family and co-workers. Try to eat a meal, watch a show, raid a crack-house with the rest of the SWAT team, drive a car, buy milk.

It seems like a lot of effort to gain a benefit that is only occasionally beneficial. Also, you will appear to be INSANE with an obsessive compulsion.

-DF

It really depends on how big a distraction casting a spell is. If it's something you can do that's roughly akin to idly fiddling, you might do it intermittently so often that at any given point in time, your odds of having let it lapse are small. Think of it like a habit of fidgeting, or like eating popcorn at a movie theater, or humming to yourself, or even just playing with a fidget spinner or bao-ding balls.

Alternatively, if it is as distracting as having to get your phone out of your pocket (or off your belt clip, or whatever), and tell Siri or Google to reset the 1 minute timer, that's going to be distracting at the very least.

Sadly, when we really think about it, the latter is the more likely scenario, given that spells must be cast in a firm and clear voice, and gestures are at least problematic enough that they require a free hand (or a hand holding the material component), and jump does have all three (the material component is a grasshopper leg). Though Otherworldly Leap does obviate the need for the material component, so it's just saying something clearly and gesturing with a free hand every time you want to cast it.

In practice, I get the impression that D&D 5e expects rituals to be "at will" (just not during combat) and at will spells to be constantly up if the user wants them to be. In practice, stopping for 10 minutes while the wizard casts detect magic is a nuisance. One that would be put up with, given the stakes most of the time, but a nuisance. It certainly isn't something you'd do comfortably to keep, say, a phantom steed (let alone a party's worth of them) up at all times.

But I think, if we look back to the olden days of D&D, when dungeon crawling was done by "turns," we might see a way to at least reconcile the gameplay elements. A turn of dungeon crawling was, in fact, 10 minutes long. Each character could do one major dungeon-crawling activity in that time: search, move, or a few other things (disabling traps and picking locks). 3e made trap disabling and lockpicking doable in a matter of rounds (often 1). But if we returned to 10 minute turns, a carefully-exploring party could cover their "lead man's" movement distance (with him searching for traps, secret doors, etc.), and each other character could do a different task in that time. A single turn, then, is what it takes to cast a ritual! (Well, slightly more, but usually not enough more to worry about.)

I think I'm drifting of topic, here, though.

The point is, on the one hand, yes, you could fluff it such that it's just a sort of nervous tick to keep a spell up constantly. On the other, the way the rules present it don't make that fluff seem very likely.

[cutlery]

Here's a challenge: Use your phone and set a 60 second countdown. Each time the alarm goes off, set a new 60 second countdown. Imagine that while the clock is counting down you can jump really far. Now, try to live your life and interact with friends, family and co-workers. Try to eat a meal, watch a show, raid a crack-house with the rest of the SWAT team, drive a car, buy milk.

It seems like a lot of effort to gain a benefit that is only occasionally beneficial. Also, you will appear to be INSANE with an obsessive compulsion.

-DF

Yeah, for something like Shillelagh if a player tried to play the "I always cast it" card, I'd roll a 1d10 to figure out how many rounds they had left on their current cast when combat began, and add a penalty to stealth checks every 1d10 rounds because they're casting a damn spell for no reason.

I wouldn't do this for the jump invocation because I would feel pity for the warlock that took it.

[N810]

I'd let you cast it as a ritual. :/

[Segev]

I'd let you cast it as a ritual. :/

That’s even less worthwhile, though. 10 minutes casting for one minute of B-list super jumping? Good in rare cases where you need the distance and have time to spare to clear it, but that’s about it.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don’t know if 5e mentions how to handle jumping past your move distance at all. But yes, I was recommending a DM ruling or house rule solution.

I was thinking: "each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement" and "On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. [...] However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."

I do agree that it's not crystal clear though and can be ruled a number of ways.

[MaxWilson]

In practice, I get the impression that D&D 5e expects rituals to be "at will" (just not during combat) and at will spells to be constantly up if the user wants them to be. In practice, stopping for 10 minutes while the wizard casts detect magic is a nuisance. One that would be put up with, given the stakes most of the time, but a nuisance. It certainly isn't something you'd do comfortably to keep, say, a phantom steed (let alone a party's worth of them) up at all times.

Technically nothing says you have to stop to cast a ritual, or any magic--you can spend 9 rounds casting a Symbol and then kick down a door, walk in, and finish casting the Symbol so it goes off immediately on your targets. (Maybe you have a Contingency set to Dimension Door you out of there.)

I dislike this technicality and would appreciate a DM who overruled it. It feels wrong.

[Mr Adventurer]

In practice, I get the impression that D&D 5e expects rituals to be "at will" (just not during combat) and at will spells to be constantly up if the user wants them to be. In practice, stopping for 10 minutes while the wizard casts detect magic is a nuisance. One that would be put up with, given the stakes most of the time, but a nuisance. It certainly isn't something you'd do comfortably to keep, say, a phantom steed (let alone a party's worth of them) up at all times.

Interesting, what gives you that impression? I don't share it at all - I'm of the view that if a spell or effect is expected to "always" be up, it has an appropriate duration. Mage Armour and Water Breathing come to mind.

On the contrary, 5e tends to have much shorter durations on effects than many previous editions did (maybe not 4th). So, I assume when something is at will, it's supposed to always be an option you can take, not necessarily something you're constantly renewing (which for short duration effects I consider deeply problematic, and not only for the sake of how difficult it would be for the character to achieve).

Meanwhile, I also don't think that pausing for ten minutes for a genuinely useful divination would be a nuisance in practice for any but the most impatient characters. Again, on the assumption it isn't every time it expires but rather when it would identifiably be useful.

For what it's worth, Phantom Steed is an interesting choice because once you've cast 4 of them, 40½ minutes have passed and you only have twenty minutes left before the first one dissolves. Clearly trying it would bite deeply into the reward available for achieving it.

[Segev]

Interesting, what gives you that impression? I don't share it at all - I'm of the view that if a spell or effect is expected to "always" be up, it has an appropriate duration. Mage Armour and Water Breathing come to mind.Just to be clear, I am treating "at will spells" and "rituals" as different, here.

And I think 5e is just a little lazy. It likes to say "you can cast X spell" rather than granting similar effects. It doesn't like adding caveats unless they're absolutely necessary. "You are always under the effects of the jump spell," would be pretty easy to write, but for some reason, the formulation 5e likes is "You can cast the jump spell at will." I do not think it is intended that you generally be caught without it up when you're entering combat, but maybe I'm wrong, there.


Meanwhile, I also don't think that pausing for ten minutes for a genuinely useful divination would be a nuisance in practice for any but the most impatient characters. Again, on the assumption it isn't every time it expires but rather when it would identifiably be useful.I mean, 10 minutes of twiddling your thumbs in a dungeon isn't exactly a short time. And it creates an awkward play decision for the DM: does he let the time pass uneventfully and skip to it, or does he bring in a random encounter since they're sitting still for so long? Or worse, chanting clearly and firmly while moving past potential listening monsters?


For what it's worth, Phantom Steed is an interesting choice because once you've cast 4 of them, 40½ minutes have passed and you only have twenty minutes left before the first one dissolves. Clearly trying it would bite deeply into the reward available for achieving it.

As has been pointed out, nothing about ritual casting prevents you from doing other things that don't require Concentration. You can cast 4 of them, and then mount up and ride out, and start casting a fifth one in 5-10 minutes and still have a change of mounts for your buddy who's on the first one you cast. In fact, you could conjure it right beneath him as the previous one vanishes.

That said, 5e's phantom steed leaves a LOT to be desired. It is weaker than 3e's by a huge amount, and doesn't fix the biggest flaw from 3e: it's way too easy to kill to be actually useful except for overland travel. And really, a 3rd level spell as a ritual that's just a moderately-inconvenient-to-use means of faster overland travel isn't worth its level.

[Mr Adventurer]

Just to be clear, I am treating "at will spells" and "rituals" as different, here.

Sure. Though, neither run out of uses.


And I think 5e is just a little lazy. It likes to say "you can cast X spell" rather than granting similar effects.

I think this is true of every edition.

Actually, I think 5e does it less - overall, at least. NPCs tend to have their own ability rather than refer back to an existing one.


It doesn't like adding caveats unless they're absolutely necessary. "You are always under the effects of the jump spell," would be pretty easy to write, but for some reason, the formulation 5e likes is "You can cast the jump spell at will.".

Whereas, I think the fact that it would have been easy, but doesn't look like that, means that that wasn't what was intended. :)

I presume it "likes" that formulation because it means it.


I mean, 10 minutes of twiddling your thumbs in a dungeon isn't exactly a short time. And it creates an awkward play decision for the DM: does he let the time pass uneventfully and skip to it, or does he bring in a random encounter since they're sitting still for so long? Or worse, chanting clearly and firmly while moving past potential listening monsters?

See, that doesn't sound like an awkward play decision for the DM - it sounds like a meaningful play decision by the players. Do they take the risk?

I still contend that ten minutes is, indeed, a short time.


As has been pointed out, nothing about ritual casting prevents you from doing other things that don't require Concentration. You can cast 4 of them, and then mount up and ride out, and start casting a fifth one in 5-10 minutes and still have a change of mounts for your buddy who's on the first one you cast. In fact, you could conjure it right beneath him as the previous one vanishes.

Fair enough; I don't think it should be that way and don't run it that way in my games. The word "ritual" has a certain weight to it, you know? But I recognise that's just me.


That said, 5e's phantom steed leaves a LOT to be desired. It is weaker than 3e's by a huge amount, and doesn't fix the biggest flaw from 3e: it's way too easy to kill to be actually useful except for overland travel. And really, a 3rd level spell as a ritual that's just a moderately-inconvenient-to-use means of faster overland travel isn't worth its level.

I know exactly what you mean because I'm very familiar with 3.5, but I believe that is the intent of the Phantom Steed spell, and always has been. It's not a flaw that it's only useful for overland travel. That's the reason the spell exists.

5e I think in fact fixed the issue of a Steed being taken out unexpectedly in the middle of a journey by making it a ritual.

[Segev]

Fair enough on most of those points.

See, that doesn't sound like an awkward play decision for the DM - it sounds like a meaningful play decision by the players. Do they take the risk?

I still contend that ten minutes is, indeed, a short time.Speaking as the DM, it's very awkward for me. Do I deny them the use of their powers, or do I do what I think is "reasonable?" Because man, dungeons don't have a lot happening in them if you've got time to take 10 minutes casting a ritual spell. Then again, that's part of why I keep looking back to "turns" in dungeon crawling. I should probably try to write up a system for it and see if it plays well with my players.


Fair enough; I don't think it should be that way and don't run it that way in my games. The word "ritual" has a certain weight to it, you know? But I recognise that's just me.I agree with you in theory. I am merely pointing out that the RAW permit such things. And I can't help but think that, if you're going to be overland traveling, you're going to not want to stop every hour for 11 minutes to re-summon the steed, so it's probably intended that way with the notion that, yes, in fact, making it a ritual means you can more or less keep it up indefinitely.


I know exactly what you mean because I'm very familiar with 3.5, but I believe that is the intent of the Phantom Steed spell, and always has been. It's not a flaw that it's only useful for overland travel. That's the reason the spell exists.

5e I think in fact fixed the issue of a Steed being taken out unexpectedly in the middle of a journey by making it a ritual.
I think its hour duration is too short unless rituals are, in fact, meant to be "easy" to do on the go, and that it's underwhelming for a 3rd level spell in any event. It doesn't even do anything interesting with the fact that it's an Illusion spell.

[Petrocorus]

Tabaxi are supposed to be naturally skilled climbers and yet their natural climb ability is only 5 ft more than a human.
Having a climbing speed prevent to have to make check for climbing in many situations. That can be useful.



That said, 5e's phantom steed leaves a LOT to be desired. It is weaker than 3e's by a huge amount, and doesn't fix the biggest flaw from 3e: it's way too easy to kill to be actually useful except for overland travel. And really, a 3rd level spell as a ritual that's just a moderately-inconvenient-to-use means of faster overland travel isn't worth its level.
The atrocious part is the duration. An overland travel spell that has not an overland travel duration. Are you supposed to stop every hour to recast, or do the writer expect you to recast while riding?

[N810]

Huh, I thought everyone knew this :/ is the sarcastic emoji.

[Mr Adventurer]

Fair enough on most of those points.
Speaking as the DM, it's very awkward for me. Do I deny them the use of their powers, or do I do what I think is "reasonable?" Because man, dungeons don't have a lot happening in them if you've got time to take 10 minutes casting a ritual spell. Then again, that's part of why I keep looking back to "turns" in dungeon crawling. I should probably try to write up a system for it and see if it plays well with my players.

Seems like we have somewhat different game play experiences then.

It's not 'denying a use of a power' if there would be natural consequences to an action. That's just playing the game.


I agree with you in theory. I am merely pointing out that the RAW permit such things. And I can't help but think that, if you're going to be overland traveling, you're going to not want to stop every hour for 11 minutes to re-summon the steed, so it's probably intended that way with the notion that, yes, in fact, making it a ritual means you can more or less keep it up indefinitely.

The RAW do.

You're not going to want to be stopping for a ten minute break every hour, perhaps, except that doing so still allows you to cover more ground than if you were not using the ritual (and just on horseback). So it's not a problem.

I don't follow that your conclusion about intention is necessary from the premises you've laid out either. Spells don't always work exactly how the caster would want them to. Fireball burns your allies caught in the area, that's inconvenient but it doesn't mean the design intent is that it doesn't do that.


I think its hour duration is too short unless rituals are, in fact, meant to be "easy" to do on the go

Whereas it seems ok to me in the context of 5e spells.

If it's really important to make use of the spell, you'd prepare it and cast it as an action.


and that it's underwhelming for a 3rd level spell in any event.

Maybe, I'm not arguing about that.


It doesn't even do anything interesting with the fact that it's an Illusion spell.

That's true, and I think it's another hold over from previous editions. The spell reads more like a Conjuration spell in 5e. In 3e the quasi-real nature of the shadow illusion allowed the steed to do fantastical things like walk on water or air, as I have no doubt you remember.

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh, I thought everyone knew this :/ is the sarcastic emoji.

Nope - it's the "regret" or "disappointment" emoji to me. Maybe some other adjacent emotions. But not sarcasm.

[Segev]

That's true, and I think it's another hold over from previous editions. The spell reads more like a Conjuration spell in 5e. In 3e the quasi-real nature of the shadow illusion allowed the steed to do fantastical things like walk on water or air, as I have no doubt you remember.

In particular, I wish they'd left the higher-CL effects as upcasting options.

[DwarfFighter]

In practice, I get the impression that D&D 5e expects rituals to be "at will" (just not during combat) and at will spells to be constantly up if the user wants them to be. In practice, stopping for 10 minutes while the wizard casts detect magic is a nuisance. One that would be put up with, given the stakes most of the time, but a nuisance. It certainly isn't something you'd do comfortably to keep, say, a phantom steed (let alone a party's worth of them) up at all times.

...

The point is, on the one hand, yes, you could fluff it such that it's just a sort of nervous tick to keep a spell up constantly. On the other, the way the rules present it don't make that fluff seem very likely.

I don't care much for the mindset that "no resource cost" equates to "always on". When the party comes across a mysterious statue it makes sense to investigate and spend time, 10 minutes, to cast detect magic. It does not make sense to stop for 10 minutes every 10 minutes of travel or during a family dinner. It's an option to use it when the appropriate circumstance arises, it is not appropriate to have it running at all hours "just in case".

And "fluffing it off"? If a player insists that "by the rules!" he can constantly cast a no-cost spell then I'm not going to warp the narrative to enable that: The problem here is that it IS INSANE, not that it APPEARS insane.

-DF

[Segev]

I don't care much for the mindset that "no resource cost" equates to "always on". When the party comes across a mysterious statue it makes sense to investigate and spend time, 10 minutes, to cast detect magic. It does not make sense to stop for 10 minutes every 10 minutes of travel or during a family dinner. It's an option to use it when the appropriate circumstance arises, it is not appropriate to have it running at all hours "just in case".

And "fluffing it off"? If a player insists that "by the rules!" he can constantly cast a no-cost spell then I'm not going to warp the narrative to enable that: The problem here is that it IS INSANE, not that it APPEARS insane.

-DF

In my personal experience, you have two ways this works out: Either they generally treat it as "stop for 10 min. doesn't cost anything" so you have it at-will (albeit not during combat), or they treat 10 minutes as an actual imposition, so you never use them unless they're show-stoppingly important.

[MaxWilson]

For what it's worth, Phantom Steed is an interesting choice because once you've cast 4 of them, 40½ minutes have passed and you only have twenty minutes left before the first one dissolves. Clearly trying it would bite deeply into the reward available for achieving it.

Don't you mean 30 minutes and twelve to eighteen seconds? The first steed's casting time is not deducted from its own duration. Only second and subsequent steeds are deducted.

[Hellpyre]

In my personal experience, you have two ways this works out: Either they generally treat it as "stop for 10 min. doesn't cost anything" so you have it at-will (albeit not during combat), or they treat 10 minutes as an actual imposition, so you never use them unless they're show-stoppingly important.

My experience also skews this way. In an adventure where time is generally a tight resource, it can be difficult to afford 10 minutes to cast a single spell of marginal utility, and so rituals tend to be relegated to side activities, travel, and prepping for rest. In adventures where there is a static goal and time doesn't exert particular pressure, they are functionally at-will spells with a caveat about not using them for action scenes.

As a side note, I find that short rests suffer from similar problems with interacting with time pressure - when a cult is sacrificing children, it can be hard to justify in-character giving them an hour of infanticide to let the Warlock and Monk top off, even when you know that it's happening at the speed of plot rather than a schedule.

[Mr Adventurer]

Don't you mean 30 minutes and twelve to eighteen seconds? The first steed's casting time is not deducted from its own duration. Only second and subsequent steeds are deducted.

Yes but I couldn't find the fraction character for that :).

[BerzerkerUnit]

I actually hate this'understanding' and never use it nor allow it to go unchallenged at my tables. Stopping whatever you're doing to take a few seconds to do something else every single minute is simply an absurd proposition. But I get other people are wedded to it so I don't argue the case online. I just wanted the alternative viewpoint out there.



Not quite, because you need a 10 foot run up to get your max jump distance, which also comes out of your speed.

I understand where you’re coming from but want to point out that to a narrow band of people, challenging a rite behavior could be ableist?

Imagine you have actual OCD and do feel compelled to engage in some tiny ritual like walking in a circle every 10 feet or touching a wall, etc. something that subtly but definitively chews through the seconds of your life and any effort to curb the behavior induced crippling anxiety, panic, or rage.

Then what a delightful fantasy that maybe your tic riddled warlock or Druid actually gets some minor superpower because of this. Their compulsive behaviors grant unnatural insight to their allies or themselves (guidance) or supernatural terpsichorian Powers (At will jump).

Maybe, as a reference to that group of players you might leave it be.

[Mr Adventurer]

I understand where you’re coming from but want to point out that to a narrow band of people, challenging a rite behavior could be ableist?

Imagine you have actual OCD and do feel compelled to engage in some tiny ritual like walking in a circle every 10 feet or touching a wall, etc. something that subtly but definitively chews through the seconds of your life and any effort to curb the behavior induced crippling anxiety, panic, or rage.

Then what a delightful fantasy that maybe your tic riddled warlock or Druid actually gets some minor superpower because of this. Their compulsive behaviors grant unnatural insight to their allies or themselves (guidance) or supernatural terpsichorian Powers (At will jump).

Maybe, as a reference to that group of players you might leave it be.

I wouldn't do that. What you are describing would be a fair answer to the challenge. "Challenge" doesn't have to be confrontational or unpleasant. In other words: the end result will be the outcome of a discussion, as so much of how a game is run should be.