Sorcadin vs Paladin

[Frogreaver]

I've seen it stated on this forum that a Sorcadin is better than a single classed Paladin. I would like this thread to be a review on that. I'm going to start by comparing a Paladin to a Paladin 6 Sorcerer X (one of the more common varieties). I firmly believe in comparing based on a level by level look of how they compare at each step along the way. I'm just going to cite the unique features.

***Added my ratings for each ability comparison to give better idea of how much I weight each ability. Rating will be in bold at end of each ability.

Level 7
Paladin 7
A. gets subclass feature - can be really good or kind of meh depending on the subclass chosen (1-10)
B. gets 2 more hp than sorcerer alternative. (2)
C. 5 more lay on hands healing 3

Paladin 6 Sorc 1
A. 4 cantrips (3)
B. 2-3 sorcerer spells known, likely shield absorb elements and expedious retreat (5)
C. gets subclass feature, can be really good or kinda meh depeding on subclass chosen (1-5)

Conclusion - Depending on subclass Paladin 7 is better than Paladin 6 Sorcerer 1

Level 8
Paladin 8 - ASI, 1 additional spell prepared
Pal 6 Sorc 2 - 1 spell known (1st level), 2 sorcery points (can only recharge a first level spell), 2 level 3 slots.
IMO, Sorcadin pulls ahead here

Level 9
Paladin 9 - level 3 spells and 2 level 3 spell slots
Pal 6 Sorc 3 - metamagic, level 2 sorc spells, 1 additional spell known, 1 additional 3rd level slot
IMO, Paladin pulls back ahead here.

Level 10
Paladin 10 - Aura of Courage, extra spell prepared
Pal 6 Sorc 4 - Level 4 slot, additional sorcerery point, additional level 2 spell known, ASI
IMO, I'd call this level dead even.

Level 11
Paladin 11 - Improved divine smite, extra 3rd level slot
Pal 6 Sorc 5 - Extra 4th level slot, 3rd level spells, Additional sorcery point
IMO, Paladin is ahead here.

I think at some point the Sorcadin overtakes the Paladin - but unless you are looking at high levels the single classed Paladin comes out ahead. Maybe level 15 when the Sorcadin learns level 5 spells and the Paladin doesn't have them yet?

[Unoriginal]

Isn't the main purpose of the Sorcerer levels in most Sorcadin build to bring spell slot fuel for the Smites?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It looks like you ignore the possible sorcerer subclass features and the fact sorcerer also bring strong spells for for the paladin to use and an extra attack with quick Bb/GFB

[Frogreaver]

It looks like you ignore the possible sorcerer subclass features and the fact sorcerer also bring strong spells for for the paladin to use and an extra attack with quick Bb/GFB

I did leave out sorcerer subclass features. Some are incredibly useful. Other's not so much. I will add in a comment about them.

While not spelled out above, Polearm Master is a common feat for a Paladin.
1. Quicken BB/GFB often just ends up competing with that bonus action attack.
2. Even without polearm master, quicken Booming Blade is something you are only doing a couple of times a day for most of the game (limited sorcery points - which could just be converted to slots for smites)

I really don't think quicken BB is worth mentioning for this mutliclass combo.

[Dork_Forge]

It depends what you want out of the build imo, if you go Sorcadin you'll be severely compromising on durability (hp), spell and feature progression and Lay on Hands. You end up being able to Smite more, but end up worse at your other Paladin things (this is mitigated somewhat if you go Divine Soul and nab Cleric spells that fall in the Paladin niche).

Want to specialise in nova damage and branch out your spellcasting? Go Sorcadin

Want to be a good Paladin? Then just keep it single classed

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm genuinely interested in a good comparative breakdown, especially since I'm playing a 6th level paladin right now and vaguely considering this quandary. But your analysis seems incomplete, as others have mentioned, and it's hard to give it much weight due to those deficiencies.

Perhaps you could edit it and include the full calculated caster level of each choice (for the spell slots), and perhaps a quick breakdown of the best possible spells available to each choice (so that things like haste or spirit guardians could be mentioned)? Also, you seem to be ignoring metamagics other than a single mention. You also forgot to mention the 10th level ASI for P6/S4.

[Frogreaver]

Isn't the main purpose of the Sorcerer levels in most Sorcadin build to bring spell slot fuel for the Smites?

Sure, but we aren't talking solely about who is better at smiting. We are talking about which is better overall.


I'm genuinely interested in a good comparative breakdown, especially since I'm playing a 6th level paladin right now and vaguely considering this quandary. But your analysis seems incomplete, as others have mentioned, and it's hard to give it much weight due to those deficiencies.

Then let's make it more complete :smallsmile:


Perhaps you could edit it and include the full calculated caster level of each choice (for the spell slots),

Like a total spell slots synopsis? That's fair.


and perhaps a quick breakdown of the best possible spells available to each choice (so that things like haste or spirit guardians could be mentioned)?

Sounds good.


Also, you seem to be ignoring metamagics other than a single mention.

Let's expand on them. I'm assuming the standard quicken and twin?


You also forgot to mention the 10th level ASI for P6/S4.

Yes.


It depends what you want out of the build imo, if you go Sorcadin you'll be severely compromising on durability (hp), spell and feature progression and Lay on Hands. You end up being able to Smite more, but end up worse at your other Paladin things (this is mitigated somewhat if you go Divine Soul and nab Cleric spells that fall in the Paladin niche).

Want to specialise in nova damage and branch out your spellcasting? Go Sorcadin

Want to be a good Paladin? Then just keep it single classed

Thanks for reminding me about the scaling lay on hands. IMO, the Paladin isn't that far behind in pure smite potential for most of these levels - and with improved divine smite he tends to surpass the sorcadin in terms of smiting for a few levels at least.

[GlenSmash!]

The fifth post in this thread lists some of the tradeoffs (even if it is phrased in terms of level 20 which is useless for my games that never get there) https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

For example if you took PAM, going Paladin to 11 is much more attractive than if you didn't take PAM (perhaps you got a holy avenger or are planning to use Shadow Blade) in which case you might be tempted to go the aforementioned quickened BB/GFB route

[Willie the Duck]

I've seen it stated on this forum that a Sorcadin is better than a single classed Paladin.

I know this is an amalgamation of many people saying slightly different things, so there's probably no one specific statement you are addressing/analyzing, but can you qualify this a bit? IMO, 'better' is entirely too broad a subject to tackle without context. I'm sure someone somewhere thinks a sorcadin is just plain universally better than pure paladin, but I'm guessing most people who have opined something like this have meant it as either 'sorcadin is better, given that ____' or 'sorcadin is better in a situation like ____.'

From what I've seen, the dominant argument runs something vaguely like this:
'It seems a common complaint that 5e has not solved the 5/15-minute workday and that DMs have a hard time fitting in a number of encounters per long rest to really deplete casters of their spell reserves (in a way that favors those with at-will abilities). Likewise, most gaming takes place in the first two tiers of play, making the multi-classing penalty of never reaching a classes' capstone abilities (and things like high-level paladin spells) something of an empty threat (since you weren't anyways). Paladins have a class feature (smite) that keys off spell slots used, a resource they accumulate at half the speed of other classes (including sorcerer, which shares a casting stat). Given this, it seems awfully tempting to drop out of paladin at some point and into a full-caster class to increase your accumulation of spell slots (such that you can really smite-nova). In general, it is seen as useful to stick around for extra attack (and aura of protection, especially since you still get a increase in slots for level 6 anyways). Level 11 for improved divine smite (particularly if you have routine bonus or reaction attacks, such as PAM) might keep you after that point, but there's a somewhat dry period between 6 and 11, especially if you don't know if you'll even keep playing at 11+.'

If that's roughly the argument we're discussing, I think it really depends on the campaign. Just how many encounters and rounds of combat happen in a given day? How often does one want to smite, as opposed to use spell slots for actually casting spells (and would level 3 or 4 paladin spells be better than levels 1-2 for both paladin and sorcerer)? What feats will you take? Up to what levels can you expect to play?


I think at some point the Sorcadin overtakes the Paladin - but unless you are looking at high levels the single classed Paladin comes out ahead. Maybe level 15 when the Sorcadin learns level 5 spells and the Paladin doesn't have them yet?

I really think the situation isn't 'this level and here on out' so much as 'okay, we are at level 7*. I could take pal7 and gain no spell slots or pal6 and sorc1 and get more smite slots for immediate benefit. Do I foresee getting to the point where I'd regret that decision?'

[Unoriginal]

Sure, but we aren't talking solely about who is better at smiting. We are talking about which is better overall.

I understand that, but my question is then: how much better at smiting would the multiclass have to be to be better overall?

[Dork_Forge]

Thanks for reminding me about the scaling lay on hands. IMO, the Paladin isn't that far behind in pure smite potential for most of these levels - and with improved divine smite he tends to surpass the sorcadin in terms of smiting for a few levels at least.

I think for the Paladin to truly fall behind for the most part then the Sorcadin needs to dump slots into Smiting primarily, which in turn detracts from a huge benefit of the Sorcadin: the casting. You get access to Shield, Absorb Elements etc. but if you're dumping all of your slots into smiting then you end up smiting more often, but you end up with lower hp (and no or little slots to compensate for that) and far less Lay on Hands, either for support purposes or self regen. Personally I don't see much of a point in the Sorcadin with a primary focus unless you have a specific goal in mind (I want Shield, I want this origin's abilities etc.) going into it for the slots is imo the wrong play. The strength of the Sorcadin imo is going Paladin on a Sorcerer, gaining more hp, proficiencies, Smite, Lay on Hands etc.

Though personally I think the stat spread investment is a bit much for me, though I do favour Dex builds (and allow my players to sub Dex in for Str in the MC pre-reqs).

[Frogreaver]

For example if you took PAM, going Paladin to 11 is much more attractive than if you didn't take PAM (perhaps you got a holy avenger or are planning to use Shadow Blade) in which case you might be tempted to go the aforementioned quickened BB/GFB route

Even then, it's only a few uses a day of quickened BB/GFB - i think your way too focused on that combo. You'd be better off saving the quicken sorcery points for a buff spell like haste or blur or greater invisibility.


I think for the Paladin to truly fall behind for the most part then the Sorcadin needs to dump slots into Smiting primarily, which in turn detracts from a huge benefit of the Sorcadin: the casting. You get access to Shield, Absorb Elements etc. but if you're dumping all of your slots into smiting then you end up smiting more often, but you end up with lower hp (and no or little slots to compensate for that) and far less Lay on Hands, either for support purposes or self regen. Personally I don't see much of a point in the Sorcadin with a primary focus unless you have a specific goal in mind (I want Shield, I want this origin's abilities etc.) going into it for the slots is imo the wrong play. The strength of the Sorcadin imo is going Paladin on a Sorcerer, gaining more hp, proficiencies, Smite, Lay on Hands etc.

Which maybe is the problem. I went Paladin 6 for the aura in this example. The sorcadin probably works better on a Paladin 2 base. It makes you a heavy armored sorcerer with some melee capabilities when desired without too much sacrifice on your casting. Also gives you a few additional spells known for the sorcerer which is always handy.


Though personally I think the stat spread investment is a bit much for me, though I do favour Dex builds (and allow my players to sub Dex in for Str in the MC pre-reqs).

Str/Cha/Con. 3 stats isn't hard to build for. I guess it is if you try to go dex instead of str though.


I understand that, but my question is then: how much better at smiting would the multiclass have to be to be better overall?

Depends on how much you personally value the Paladin abilities you would be giving up for that I suppose.

[Dork_Forge]

Str/Cha/Con. 3 stats isn't hard to build for. I guess it is if you try to go dex instead of str though.

Building for three stats isn't hard, but I'd want at least a minimum of a 10 in Int, 12 in Wis and a high a Dex as possible, it's too valuable a stat to me and being at the complete mercy of a D20 roll doesn't feel good. Plus it feels weird that Dexadins are perfectly fine and viable single classed but the moment you MC suddenly you need a min. Str.

[Gignere]

I think OP is undervaluing shield spell and absorb elements which is basically a feature in itself.

Boosting AC to potentially into the mid to high 20s after seeing the roll is definitely better than just about any level 7 straight Paladin features save perhaps Ancients and thats arguable.

Personally I don’t think sorcadins are better than Paladins, just different.

[GlenSmash!]

Even then, it's only a few uses a day of quickened BB/GFB - i think your way too focused on that combo. You'd be better off saving the quicken sorcery points for a buff spell like haste or blur or greater invisibility.


I hardly think my usage of "may be tempted to" translates to being "too focused on that combo"

Perhaps my language was too strong? :smallconfused:

[Frogreaver]

I know this is an amalgamation of many people saying slightly different things, so there's probably no one specific statement you are addressing/analyzing, but can you qualify this a bit? IMO, 'better' is entirely too broad a subject to tackle without context. I'm sure someone somewhere thinks a sorcadin is just plain universally better than pure paladin, but I'm guessing most people who have opined something like this have meant it as either 'sorcadin is better, given that ____' or 'sorcadin is better in a situation like ____.'

Maybe but I am referring to the generally better situation.


From what I've seen, the dominant argument runs something vaguely like this:
'It seems a common complaint that 5e has not solved the 5/15-minute workday and that DMs have a hard time fitting in a number of encounters per long rest to really deplete casters of their spell reserves (in a way that favors those with at-will abilities).

Agreed here.


Likewise, most gaming takes place in the first two tiers of play, making the multi-classing penalty of never reaching a classes' capstone abilities (and things like high-level paladin spells) something of an empty threat (since you weren't anyways). Paladins have a class feature (smite) that keys off spell slots used, a resource they accumulate at half the speed of other classes (including sorcerer, which shares a casting stat).

Mostly agreed but it's not half speed as you suggest. Slots progression isn't linear.



Given this, it seems awfully tempting to drop out of paladin at some point and into a full-caster class to increase your accumulation of spell slots (such that you can really smite-nova). In general, it is seen as useful to stick around for extra attack (and aura of protection, especially since you still get a increase in slots for level 6 anyways).

You don't increase slots at level 6. You do at level 5 and 7 though.


Level 11 for improved divine smite (particularly if you have routine bonus or reaction attacks, such as PAM) might keep you after that point, but there's a somewhat dry period between 6 and 11, especially if you don't know if you'll even keep playing at 11+.'

You get 3rd level slots, you get 3rd level spells, you get your ASI, you get a potentially very powerful subclass feature. Even without PAM, improved divine smite makes you just as good if not better at smiting than the pal 6 sorc 5 unless we are talking particularly short adventuring days.


If that's roughly the argument we're discussing, I think it really depends on the campaign. Just how many encounters and rounds of combat happen in a given day? How often does one want to smite, as opposed to use spell slots for actually casting spells (and would level 3 or 4 paladin spells be better than levels 1-2 for both paladin and sorcerer)? What feats will you take? Up to what levels can you expect to play?

Everything always depends on the campaign and those specifics.


I really think the situation isn't 'this level and here on out' so much as 'okay, we are at level 7*. I could take pal7 and gain no spell slots or pal6 and sorc1 and get more smite slots for immediate benefit. Do I foresee getting to the point where I'd regret that decision?'

A paladin 7 and a Pal 6 Sorc 1 have the same exact number of slots.


I think OP is undervaluing shield spell and absorb elements which is basically a feature in itself.

Boosting AC to potentially into the mid to high 20s after seeing the roll is definitely better than just about any level 7 straight Paladin features save perhaps Ancients and thats arguable.

As I noted, it does depend on the subclass for level 7. It also depends on weapon choice if you are talking shield spell. Sword and shield or Spear and Shield Paladins need warcaster to make use of shield spell - which is hard on a character you've already delayed ASI's by 2 additional levels.

The Pure Paladin gets 2hp more and 5 more hp healing with lay on hands a level. In other words, by level 11 that's essentially 35 more hp that needs chewed through. How many shield spells is 35 hp worth? However many it is, that's how many fewer smites you are using. That's where you see the smite advantage shrink.


I hardly think my usage of "may be tempted to" translates to being "too focused on that combo"

Perhaps my language was too strong? :smallconfused:

Apologies. You weren't the first to bring up BB. I addressed all those instances via your post - which wasn't very fair to your actual position.

[Nhorianscum]

I've seen it stated on this forum that a Sorcadin is better than a single classed Paladin. I would like this thread to be a review on that. I'm going to start by comparing a Paladin to a Paladin 6 Sorcerer X (one of the more common varieties). I firmly believe in comparing based on a level by level look of how they compare at each step along the way. I'm just going to cite the unique features.

***Added my ratings for each ability comparison to give better idea of how much I weight each ability. Rating will be in bold at end of each ability.

Level 7
Paladin 7
A. gets subclass feature - can be really good or kind of meh depending on the subclass chosen (1-10)
B. gets 2 more hp than sorcerer alternative. (2)

Paladin 6 Sorc 1
A. 4 cantrips (3)
B. 2-3 sorcerer spells known (5)
C. gets subclass feature, can be really good or kinda meh depeding on subclass chosen (1-5)

Conclusion - Depending on subclass Paladin 7 is better than Paladin 6 Sorcerer 1

Level 8
Paladin 8 - ASI, 1 additional spell prepared
Pal 6 Sorc 2 - 1 spell known (1st level), 2 sorcery points (can only recharge a first level spell), 2 level 3 slots.
IMO, Sorcadin pulls ahead here

Level 9
Paladin 9 - level 3 spells and 2 level 3 spell slots
Pal 6 Sorc 3 - metamagic, level 2 sorc spells, 1 additional spell known, 1 additional 3rd level slot
IMO, Paladin pulls back ahead here.

Level 10
Paladin 10 - Aura of Courage, extra spell prepared
Pal 6 Sorc 4 - Level 4 slot, additional sorcerery point, additional level 2 spell known, ASI
IMO, I'd call this level dead even.

Level 11
Paladin 11 - Improved divine smite, extra 3rd level slot
Pal 6 Sorc 5 - Extra 4th level slot, 3rd level spells, Additional sorcery point
IMO, Paladin is ahead here.

I think at some point the Sorcadin overtakes the Paladin - but unless you are looking at high levels the single classed Paladin comes out ahead. Maybe level 15 when the Sorcadin learns level 5 spells and the Paladin doesn't have them yet?

I don't really see sorcadin ever pulling ahead of a full paladin. (Except for the 2/18 split where we get wish. Wish is dumb.)

It's more of a "do you prefer damage on your paladin with some decent BC, or do you prefer the paladin incomparables?"

[Frogreaver]

I don't really see sorcadin ever pulling ahead of a full paladin. (Except for the 2/18 split where we get wish. Wish is dumb.)

It's more of a "do you prefer damage on your paladin with some decent BC, or do you prefer the paladin incomparables?"

I mostly agree here.

To me the biggest benefit of sorcadin is really the ability to bonus action buff.

[Willie the Duck]

Mostly agreed but it's not half speed as you suggest. Slots progression isn't linear.
Correct, nor is the value of a given slot of one specific forumulaic value (even if only used for smiting, higher level slots allows even greater first round DPR, but have a higher likelihood of overkill). You do, however, progress down a non-linear chart of spell progression twice as quickly as you level. That was my point.


You don't increase slots at level 6. You do at level 5 and 7 though.
If you are going to multiclass, having 5 levels of paladin nets you two levels on the multiclass spell progression table ("half your levels (rounded down) in the paladin and ranger classes"). Having 6 nets you three levels. A paladin 6 and paladin5/sorcerer1 use the same line on said table.


You get 3rd level slots, you get 3rd level spells, you get your ASI, you get a potentially very powerful subclass feature. Even without PAM, improved divine smite makes you just as good if not better at smiting than the pal 6 sorc 5 unless we are talking particularly short adventuring days.
Yes, even without PAM you still get +2d8 x hit% damage per round. That may or may not sway someone one way or the other. As I said, it is going to depend on a lot of things and most importantly (I feel) their estimation on when the campaign ends. 3rd level spells and 3rd level slots are particularly interesting. Dispel Magic and Revivify in particular, and this brings into play a lot of 'what does the rest of the party look like?' effects. My take is that parties that have waited until 9th level to get Revivify probably have already built their combat tactics around the assumption that the spell wouldn't be there when it was most needed. Dispel magic I suspect someone else already invested in (in other words, someone decided to play a wizard or cleric or the like, and routinely has the spell at their disposal). Of course getting both (and DM in particular on a second caster) are still incredibly useful, but I don't know how much it would add to the MC-or-not calculations. Archetype-specific 3rd level spells are probably where this shines the most. I think a combat-focused vengeance paladin might include Haste in their decision on whether to tough it out to L9.


A paladin 7 and a Pal 6 Sorc 1 have the same exact number of slots.
D'oh. Yep. That was my point for above. I should have stated it as make the decision at attaining L7 on whether to start heading down that road to start accumulating the extra slots (which starts happening at L8 if you do). It is semi-immediate benefit.

[Gignere]

As I noted, it does depend on the subclass for level 7. It also depends on weapon choice if you are talking shield spell. Sword and shield or Spear and Shield Paladins need warcaster to make use of shield spell - which is hard on a character you've already delayed ASI's by 2 additional levels.

The Pure Paladin gets 2hp more and 5 more hp healing with lay on hands a level. In other words, by level 11 that's essentially 35 more hp that needs chewed through. How many shield spells is 35 hp worth? However many it is, that's how many fewer smites you are using.

I don’t see how you can equate LoH provided hps to shield/absorb elements since one takes a whole action whereas the other requires just a reaction. One can prevent you from dropping unconscious during battle the other can not, so from my view LoH is nowhere near as good as shield.

Obviously depends on the situation but a single casting of shield/absorb elements can easily prevent 35+ points of damage if the rolls all fall between hitting and missing the Paladin but for shield/absorb elements on particularly bad AoEs (dragon breath attacks)

Note one cast of shield lasts the rest of the round so against creatures with multiattack and horde of mobs it is particularly useful and can easily prevent 35+ points in damage with a single cast.

[cutlery]

I think a Sorcadin can start to muscle in on the Eldritch Knight's turf; shield, absorb elements lots of low level slots, and quickened spells like haste or fireball for a not so bad opener (and fireball sooner than the EK).

The question is whether or not they will smite themselves empty before the party calls for a long rest. A Pal/Sorc in Tier 3 can also go to war with far more level 4 prime smiting slots than a pure paladin would, and the same sort of question comes up. If this is a one encounter per day table, walking into a fight with ~4-6 extra level 4 slots for smites is pretty great. They'll have the SP to quicken haste then can proceed to drop threeish smites a round for a few rounds.

So, more like a supernova compared to the paladins nova; especially if the paladin happens to be vengeance for crit fishing.

OTOH, a monoclassed vengeance paladin will have much better low-resource or at will damage with IDS, and can still haste up when they feel like it.

[Aimeryan]

Some thoughts:

At level 11, Booming Blade + Mobile deals more damage than IDS + PAM if the creature moves, which is down to the party composition on how likely that is; if playing with another melee who likes to not stick around, or with no other melee, or your other melee is super tanky, etc. Futhermore, you still have your Bonus Action to do something with; Quicken BB, maybe - or some other spell. If they don't move, great!

A common problem the party will face is many opponents, as opposed to one or two big'uns - in fact, I would say the former is a fair bit more common than the latter. Paladins are not great at this situation. Sorcadins (Divine Soul) can use Spiritual Guardians, or Fireball, or a crowd control spell.

Paladin spells are mostly buffs. Sorcadins can do buffs too, but better (Twinned), more of them (Spell Slots), and more variety (Spell List).

[Edea]

I thought Hexblade was the thing for smite-focused Paladin builds, now, not Sorcerer?

Warlock 1/Paladin 6/Warlock +11/Paladin +2, and then just run the whole thing off of Charisma.

[stoutstien]

I don’t see how you can equate LoH provided hps to shield/absorb elements since one takes a whole action whereas the other requires just a reaction. One can prevent you from dropping unconscious during battle the other can not, so from my view LoH is nowhere near as good as shield.

Obviously depends on the situation but a single casting of shield/absorb elements can easily prevent 35+ points of damage if the rolls all fall between hitting and missing the Paladin but for shield/absorb elements on particularly bad AoEs (dragon breath attacks)

Note one cast of shield lasts the rest of the round so against creatures with multiattack and horde of mobs it is particularly useful and can easily prevent 35+ points in damage with a single cast.

You can't really compare them because they're two different mechanical concepts. Lay of hands is purely recovery while reaction-based spells like shield and absorb element are mitigation.

[Eldariel]

I thought Hexblade was the thing for smite-focused Paladin builds, now, not Sorcerer?

Warlock 1/Paladin 6/Warlock +11/Paladin +2, and then just run the whole thing off of Charisma.

Seems like a peculiar idea to me: one of the huge issues with Warlock is that they get so few spellslots to start with. It's quite quick for a Palalock to expend their slots either smiting or doing anything else and then being in the need for rest.

[Gignere]

I thought Hexblade was the thing for smite-focused Paladin builds, now, not Sorcerer?

Warlock 1/Paladin 6/Warlock +11/Paladin +2, and then just run the whole thing off of Charisma.

This is if you want to double smite but the problems with running out of spell slots to smite is magnified.

[Waazraath]

I think at some point the Sorcadin overtakes the Paladin - but unless you are looking at high levels the single classed Paladin comes out ahead. Maybe level 15 when the Sorcadin learns level 5 spells and the Paladin doesn't have them yet?

I don't think it really does.,The sorcerer might get 5th level spells, by that time the single class pally has a permanent flying mount/companion that it can buff. Sorcadin is definitely valid (even good) but I don't think it's generally better than a paladin. Might be better if you optimize for something specific (most likely: damage, with more smites and quicken SCAG-cantrips), but it comes at the cost of defense, utility, healing and survivability. Yeah, sorcerer spells can give you those too, but if you aren't spending those extra spell slots on smites, then what's the use of the multiclass in the first place?

[Edea]

I guess it just depends if you're taking short rests or not.

Really dislike how that was handled, this edition.

[Asmotherion]

Sorladin is a very optimal build; That is, it's not without it's flaws, one of which is, it starts coming to a sweet spot only by level 5 (were you can have both Divine Smite and Quicken Magic for Booming Blade), and reaches it's peak at level 9+ when you have your Aura of Protection. From there on, you just need to keep gaining Sorcerer Levels, or, optionally, go for a sweet Hexblade Dip.

Others prefear the more steady Hexblade dip Early on, and multiclassing into Paladin only at later levels.

Either way, there's a few reasons to stay paladin past level 6-7, but there's absolutelly no reason to stay pure sorcerer, and not trade your last 3 levels for a bit extra power (the Smiting, non-Aura of Protection variant). From that point on, it's up to personal preferance. You either get more, and higher level spells, or get a Smiting option, and, if you invest enough levels, Aura of Protection, an ability that rivals BearBarians and Abjureres alike. Also, Spell slots are not just Smite slots, they come with a short but nice to have list of Spells and Cantrips, that can make your Paladin more versatile than ever.

In the end, it's not a build that will be super usefull in most published campains, since they usually come with a level cap, but can be a fun thing to build when your DM proposes a High Level One-Shot, or some other Campain that will reach above level 10, imo.

[Benny89]

I don't think it's even a competetition.

Sorcadin gets Shield, Absorb Elements, range magic attacks (Paladins SUCK HARD vs range enemies and they have no MAGICAL damage in range), mobility spells like Misty Step (if you are not Vengeance or Ancients) and Quicken Dimension Door. They also get Fireball/Lightning and higher slots to upcast them, they get Haste (so not only Vengeance Paladin), Twin Haste, Quicken Haste (no more waiting whole turn to go full nova, Quicken Haste and go in) or Fly instead which can be Twinned and you have flying Sorcadin smitting flying enemies. And so on.

And that is just from Sorcerer alone.

Now in 99% cases the BEST min-max Sorc to make Sorcadin is Divine Soul. What does it gives Paladin ON TOP of above?

Spirit Guardians. Now you are Paladin in Heavy Armor, Extra Attack, Smites with 15 feet Aura spell that deals radiant damage every turn, makes difficult terrain and with War Caster + Booming Blade + Smite anyone who will try to get away from you without disengage (and even with disengage it's still difficult terrain) will regret that really fast. They also great Greater Invisibility that they can Twin or Quicken for advantage generation or anything else. They get Polymorph for utility/healing and they can TWIN it.

Spiritual Weapon. Reliable Bonus Action attack without need of taking PAM or GWM or wasting Quicken for Booming Blade if you are not fighting boss and go full-nova. Non-Concentration.

You have access to all cleric spells + meta magic. Extended Death Ward/Aid, Twin Shield of Faith, Twin Healing Word and many other combos. Twin Holy Weapon?

On TOP OF ALL THAT above you get MORE spell slots for smites and you can convert lower slots to higher slots or higher slots to lower slots to fuel smites even further thanks to Font of Magic.

I mean, single class Paladin is great with 30 ft Ancients Aura or Greater Steed GWM PAM Vengeance Paladin build. They are really really good.

But Sorcadin is almost unkillable smite machine that can Nova for riddiculous amount of single-target damage while having strong AOE damage tools, counterspell/Dispel, Shield + Absorb, Aura on top of that and mobility.

I could go on, but Sorcadin has been talked over for YEARS here or on 3d6 reddit. The consensus won't change - they are one of the most OP builds you can make in 5e.

You can also go 1 Hexblade/6 Vengeance Pala/13 Divine Soul and be SAD CHA on top of all that with Curse + VoE for advantage and 19-20 crit range. Top that cake with Elven Accuracy + way more slots for smites and... well.

THE ONLY scenario where Paladin > Sorcadin is if campaign ends before or at maximum 10 level. Level 11 (6/5) is when Sorcadin goes fully online. So I can agree that Paladin is better choice for 10 and lower level campaigns.

[Satori01]

The Paladin class spell is a fairly good spell list to have access to as a preparation caster.
Some of those spells probably deserve to be cast.

Adding Sorcerer levels means you not getting access to the Paly list, (at best you might be partially duplicating the Paly list through the Divine Soul subclass).

Most spellcasters are going to have four 1st level spell slots per day.
So, if you rely on AE/Shield to save you, your Adventuring Day is going to be short.

Protection of Faith lasts for 10 minutes, and is arguably just as good as the Shield spell.

If a Paladin is already taking 1/2 damage from making a Saving Throw, isn't turning the damage to 1/4 power via Absorb Elements..showboating? 🥳

[Benny89]

If a Paladin is already taking 1/2 damage from making a Saving Throw, isn't turning the damage to 1/4 power via Absorb Elements..showboating? 🥳

Depends, I got hit once with 96 damage from I think Dragon Breath or something. Save gave me 48 dmg, and then Absorb only 24.

[Satori01]

Depends, I got hit once with 96 damage from I think Dragon Breath or something. Save gave me 48 dmg, and then Absorb only 24.

Did you take a Long or Short Rest afterwards?

Unless you are on a quest timer, titanic battles against dragons usually involve a little bit of a nap at the end.
(Dirt or otherwise).

A 7th level Paladin can take 48 damage from a dragon's Breath Weapon.
That same Paladin with Shield master would have taken Zero damage.

Many of the Tier 4 monsters in Eberron do not use AE covered perils.

A d6 Hit Die might mean you die without Absorb Elements. Better hope that dragon's BW Recharge rolls are poor, because you have four 1st level slots. Constantly casting magical chaff does not scream: METAL!!!
to me.

[Gignere]

Did you take a Long or Short Rest afterwards?

Unless you are on a quest timer, titanic battles against dragons usually involve a little bit of a nap at the end.
(Dirt or otherwise).

A 7th level Paladin can take 48 damage from a dragon's Breath Weapon.
That same Paladin with Shield master would have taken Zero damage.

Many of the Tier 4 monsters in Eberron do not use AE covered perils.

A d6 Hit Die might mean you die without Absorb Elements. Better hope that dragon's BW Recharge rolls are poor, because you have four 1st level slots. Constantly casting magical chaff does not scream: METAL!!!
to me.

You can use higher level slots for absorb elements even with the most dice fudging of DMs, it should be enough. This is about succeeding on the roll but imagine failing it. Taking 48 >>>>>> 96.

[Satori01]

You can use higher level slots for absorb elements even with the most dice fudging of DMs, it should be enough. This is about succeeding on the roll but imagine failing it. Taking 48 >>>>>> 96.

Of course you can spend a spell slot higher than a 1st level slot for AE, but generally that falls under the classification of "Desperate Measures" does it not?

Absorb Elements can literally save your bacon from the fire. The Forgotten Realms has a long history of dragons whom also also skilled practitioner of The Art, though.

The very same Dragon being able to also Counterspell your Absorb Elements is also possibility to consider.
Same with a Beholder.

Just food for thought, so one does not become monster food, themselves

[Benny89]

Did you take a Long or Short Rest afterwards?

Unless you are on a quest timer, titanic battles against dragons usually involve a little bit of a nap at the end.
(Dirt or otherwise).

A 7th level Paladin can take 48 damage from a dragon's Breath Weapon.
That same Paladin with Shield master would have taken Zero damage.

Many of the Tier 4 monsters in Eberron do not use AE covered perils.

A d6 Hit Die might mean you die without Absorb Elements. Better hope that dragon's BW Recharge rolls are poor, because you have four 1st level slots. Constantly casting magical chaff does not scream: METAL!!!
to me.

Shield Master is useless talent for both Paladins and Sorcadins. They have higher priority ASI to take. Paladin has to take both CHA and STR ASI, at least to 18/20 ratio, RES (CON) or War Caster is much more important for both of them. Then you have stuff like PAM, GWM, Elven Accuracy. At least one of those takes place in Paladins builds mostly. Then you have Lucky, which is much better feat than Shield Master. Or Magic Initiate.

Besides even with all the auras in the world etc. you can still roll 1. I was playing Sorcadin and I was boosted as hell, but I still rolled 1s,2s,3s many times. This is where Absorb Elements allowed me to eat half-damage when I failed save.

You see- save to take half damage is still save that can fail. Absorb Elements never fails. It just does the job.

Before I hit level 12 as 6/6 Sorcadin Absorb Elements already allowed me to tank some nasty fireballs or lightnings or chain lightnings. You don't just auto-pass saves. You can still fail.

And with Sorcadin and Font of Magic a 1st level slot is nothing to cry about. That is why they are so good. Every slot used hurts Paladin. Sorcadin - not so much.

Absorb Elements is great. Every min-max guide always mentions it as very worthy thing to have even as cost of multiclassing etc.

Same with Shield Spell.

[Satori01]

You see- save to take half damage is still safe that can fail. Absorb Elements never fail. It just does it.

Counterspell, A beholder's Anti Magic Eye, Necrotic Damage, Force Damage, Poison Damage, Chips, Dips, Chains and Whips.....all of these things, (and more), are not covered perils under the insurance policy of Absorb Elements.

Absorb Elements is great coverage, but you need some supplemental umbrella policies to fill in your gaps.

Holding a Counterspell in reserve to use on a player casting AE is a signature Recurring Villain Move.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I find these sort of threads so difficult respond to in the way I think the OP has intended, which I think is to say X > Y for the following (usually mathematical) reason. DnD is (or should be with the right DM) an incredibly complex game with so many varied challenges that X or Y may or may not be more impactful in each situation.
One example that comes to mind from our own play was an encounter at early tier 3 with a pit fiend and a few bone devils. Without the Aura of Courage from a 10+ level Paladin the best case scenario was a mad scramble to save some of the party and the worst was a TPK. The barbarian would have needed a 20 to make the save. However, most of the time one could argue a few extra smites make the MC option better.
I'd just conclude that many times when I read the min/max arguments they tend to underrate situational but powerful abilities like Aura of Courage. That's doubly so when these abilities are defensive and/ or benefit allies as opposed to the individual character.

[Gignere]

Counterspell, A beholder's Anti Magic Eye, Necrotic Damage, Force Damage, Poison Damage, Chips, Dips, Chains and Whips.....all of these things, (and more), are not covered perils under the insurance policy of Absorb Elements.

Absorb Elements is great coverage, but you need some supplemental umbrella policies to fill in your gaps.

Holding a Counterspell in reserve to use on a player casting AE is a signature Recurring Villain Move.

Thankfully I usually have another party member to counterspell their counterspell, but your BBEG wasting a level 3 slot to CS your AE is probably a win for the party.

As for the beholder eye, it suppresses all magic so shouldn’t be any kind of AE that can hit you while you are in the beam. It’s actually the safest place to be fighting a beholder because it means none of their other eye rays can effect you.

I have never had a villain CS my AE because they are busy trying to CS my wizards/clerics/bards level 5 or 6 spells. If my AE baited a CS the full casters will probably go house on the BBEG on their turn.

[sithlordnergal]

I feel that it would be a bit too difficult to judge a Soradin and Paladin in this manner. If you try to judge solely on class features, the Paladin comes out ahead. The Paladin has some of the best class features of any class, providing a ton of party wide support, damage, utility, ect.. If you need it as a buff, the Paladin can probably provide it as a passive. Meanwhile the Soradin is basically limited to just getting spells and spell slots. Yeah, you'll gain some class features from a Sorcerer, but Full Spell Casters tend to have few class features.

But at the same time, you can't really judge by what spells a Soradin will take because there are just too many and the Sorcerer is limited in what they can take. Heck, a Soradin that goes Divine Soul technically has access to the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Paladin spell lists. That is nuts, and can offer a TON of versatility...but you can only take so many spells. And lets face it, not every spell is equal. The Shield spell is always useful, but at higher tiers where things have a +16 or +17 to hit its going to be more useful to those Soradins that spec'd into being tanks then the ones who didn't. By which I mean they took Defense, have a +3 shield, +1 Plate, and cast Shield of Faith on themselves for that sweet 32 AC when they cast Shield. Same goes for Ranged and Control spells.

[Benny89]

Counterspell, A beholder's Anti Magic Eye, Necrotic Damage, Force Damage, Poison Damage, Chips, Dips, Chains and Whips.....all of these things, (and more), are not covered perils under the insurance policy of Absorb Elements.

Absorb Elements is great coverage, but you need some supplemental umbrella policies to fill in your gaps.

Holding a Counterspell in reserve to use on a player casting AE is a signature Recurring Villain Move.

I have counterspell as Sorcadin. Beholder Anti-Magic Eye does not really affect my smites. Force damage? What next you will bring up? Power Word: Kill vs Absorb Elements? Come on... You meet way more fire, lightning or cold damage than you meet Force or Necrotic. Just look at monsters and their attacks. Enemy spell casters will hit you and your party way more often with Fireball, Lightning, Cone of Cold, Chain Lighting etc. than with Eldricht Blast or Toll The Dead.

Chips, Dips, Chains and Whips? Thanks, I have Shield spell for that and loads of AC.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I feel that it would be a bit too difficult to judge a Soradin and Paladin in this manner. If you try to judge solely on class features, the Paladin comes out ahead. The Paladin has some of the best class features of any class, providing a ton of party wide support, damage, utility, ect.. If you need it as a buff, the Paladin can probably provide it as a passive. Meanwhile the Soradin is basically limited to just getting spells and spell slots. Yeah, you'll gain some class features from a Sorcerer, but Full Spell Casters tend to have few class features.

But at the same time, you can't really judge by what spells a Soradin will take because there are just too many and the Sorcerer is limited in what they can take. Heck, a Soradin that goes Divine Soul technically has access to the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Paladin spell lists. That is nuts, and can offer a TON of versatility...but you can only take so many spells. And lets face it, not every spell is equal. The Shield spell is always useful, but at higher tiers where things have a +16 or +17 to hit its going to be more useful to those Soradins that spec'd into being tanks then the ones who didn't. By which I mean they took Defense, have a +3 shield, +1 Plate, and cast Shield of Faith on themselves for that sweet 32 AC when they cast Shield. Same goes for Ranged and Control spells.

An exploration of the sub-classes is kind of interesting. You're right; the Divine Soul is definitely reaching a point of diminishing returns with more spell access. I mean how many Cleric spells are you actually going to cast with 2 other lists and Smiting? Dragon: well again usually a blaster but are you going to be doing much of that? I do like the idea of having something to do at range as an option when Paladins are often more limited (Quickened or Empowered options). Better AC is wasted, but more HP will help. Shadow seems to me to be a solid option in that none of the abilities are wasted. I'd be interested in what others have played with MC Paladins and what worked or didn't.

[Satori01]

Thankfully I usually have another party member to counterspell their counterspell, but your BBEG wasting a level 3 slot to CS your AE is probably a win for the party.


Gignere, let's take the previously used example of a 96 point damage Breath Weapon that is cut in half from AE...only for the PC to take full damage again, due to a timely Counterspell.

That isn't a waste of a spell, that is a well timed tactical reversal. If monster life expectancy is approximately 3 rounds, ensuring your attacks are having maximal impact is sound. I'm afraid I don't agree with your analysis here.


I have counterspell as Sorcadin. Beholder Anti-Magic Eye does not really affect my smites. Force damage? What next you will bring up? Power Word: Kill vs Absorb Elements? Come on... You meet way more fire, lightning or cold damage than you meet Force or Necrotic. Just look at monsters and their attacks. Enemy spell casters will hit you and your party way more often with Fireball, Lightning, Cone of Cold, Chain Lighting etc. than with Eldricht Blast or Toll The Dead.

Chips, Dips, Chains and Whips? Thanks, I have Shield spell for that and loads of AC.

Is the radiant damage from a divine smite magical? Table rulings might very well have a Beholder's Central eye negate Smites.

Every book released, tends to increase the number of sources of damage that are not elemental.

Undead, Shadow Dragons, Yuan Ti Warlocks from VGtM, Shadar Kai Warlocks from Mord's, and plenty of high Tier Creatures don't use elemental effects. If your party finds itself roped into an epic quest to defeat a Mind Flayer colony or pulled into Barovia....The damage types you encounter might be different then your expectations.

Of course, if you never have unexpected events happen to your character, there is no need to think about any surprises, I take it? Why speculate on possible encounters from the safety of of an electronic bulletin board, even if unusual?

A 6th level Paladin/ 6th level Sorc multi-class character with a 9th level caster level, has 14 spell slots of levels 1-5 to use. This roughly translates to Two Spells and/or Divine Smites per Encounter.

A straight 12th level Paladin has 10 spell slots with 3rd level slots being the ceiling. They also have an Extra ASI.

If Sorcadin builds are rigid constructions, as others have stated... and ASI and Feat and Spells must be selected in a precise manner, what happens when circumstances change, and rigidity becomes brittleness?

Assuming AE and Shield will cover everything, is too trusting for my comfort.

[Hael]

I’ve played both, and the Sorcadin is *considerably* stronger, at almost every level.. Getting access to cleric spells like spiritual weapon and Spirit Guardian is ridiculous as a Paladin and typical build involves a shield and warcaster . In practice you are considerably tankier than the straight Paladin because of absorb elements, shield and the various cleric buffs and sorcerer features and you have so much more versatility.

The flip side is you have less sustained melee dpr outside of nova fights (of which you are one of the undisputed kings in 5e), but then again a single fireball can catch you up in a hurry.

I consider Sorcadins very overpowered, and I didn’t enjoy playing one bc of how cheesy it felt.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I’ve played both, and the Sorcadin is *considerably* stronger, at almost every level.. Getting access to cleric spells like spiritual weapon and Spirit Guardian is ridiculous as a Paladin and typical build involves a shield and warcaster . In practice you are considerably tankier than the straight Paladin because of absorb elements, shield and the various cleric buffs and sorcerer features and you have so much more versatility.

The flip side is you have less sustained melee dpr outside of nova fights (of which you are one of the undisputed kings in 5e), but then again a single fireball can catch you up in a hurry.

I consider Sorcadins very overpowered, and I didn’t enjoy playing one bc of how cheesy it felt.

We've generally not had anyone do this either, largely because of the perceived cheese. That said, when I look at a 6P/6S vs a 12 Paladin there are definite trade offs, particularly for, as you mention, at will abilities. The Aura of Courage can be a game changer (mentioned in my previous post), Improved Divine Smite just plain works, and there is the ASI. The extra hp offset, to some extent, Shield and Absorb Elements. Yes, the 4 extra spell slots are great, but using the tactics you described the character will be going through them in a hurry. I could definitely see style of play, particularly number of encounters per day playing a huge role in just how good the MC is.

[Gignere]

Gignere, let's take the previously used example of a 96 point damage Breath Weapon that is cut in half from AE...only for the PC to take full damage again, due to a timely Counterspell.

That isn't a waste of a spell, that is a well timed tactical reversal. If monster life expectancy is approximately 3 rounds, ensuring your attacks are having maximal impact is sound. I'm afraid I don't agree with your analysis here.



Is the radiant damage from a divine smite magical? Table rulings might very well have a Beholder's Central eye negate Smites.

Every book released, tends to increase the number of sources of damage that are not elemental.

Undead, Shadow Dragons, Yuan Ti Warlocks from VGtM, Shadar Kai Warlocks from Mord's, and plenty of high Tier Creatures don't use elemental effects. If your party finds itself roped into an epic quest to defeat a Mind Flayer colony or pulled into Barovia....The damage types you encounter might be different then your expectations.

Of course, if you never have unexpected events happen to your character, there is no need to think about any surprises, I take it? Why speculate on possible encounters from the safety of of an electronic bulletin board, even if unusual?

A 6th level Paladin/ 6th level Sorc multi-class character with a 9th level caster level, has 14 spell slots of levels 1-5 to use. This roughly translates to Two Spells and/or Divine Smites per Encounter.

A straight 12th level Paladin has 10 spell slots with 3rd level slots being the ceiling. They also have an Extra ASI.

If Sorcadin builds are rigid constructions, as others have stated... and ASI and Feat and Spells must be selected in a precise manner, what happens when circumstances change, and rigidity becomes brittleness?

Assuming AE and Shield will cover everything, is too trusting for my comfort.

This is ridiculous, your arguments are of the DM meta games against the players because how would a dragon know their breath did 96 damage and it’s enough to turn the tide of battle. Anyway your arguments against the sorcadin in that they don’t have every tool under the sun equally if not more so to the pure class Paladin. Even with shrodingers Paladin you have less tool then a sorcadin with just shield and AE to address all the challenges.

[diplomancer]

I would only play a Sorcadin (paladin 6/Sorcerer X) if my DM let me upcast find steed to work as find greater steed. I don't want to wait to level 20 to have constant, concentration-free flight on a melee-oriented class. For those Paladins who get a good subclass feature at level 7, I probably wouldn't do it even then. MAYBE a 1 level dip for shield/absorb elements, but even that I'm not sure if it's worth it, as PAM gives the Paladin a good use for his reaction. Also, it's probably best to take the Hexblade for that one level dip; no Absorb Elements, but everything else you get from it, specially the CHA sadness, more than compensates for it.

One situation that I might consider is:
1- I really want to play like a Paladin;
2- There's no Arcane caster in the party.
In that case, I might go the Paladin 2/Sorcerer X route.

[Pex]

I was having a great time playing a paladin, but then at 10th level the lack of a decent range attack was starting to become a hindrance rather than an inconvenience. The party was hurting with my lack of action when range attacks were needed. I stuck it out to 12th level to get the ASI then I multiclassed. I needed the ASI more than Magic Initiate. Multiclassing proved the right move. It was more than one combat where my character literally did not die because I had Shield and Absorb Elements available. Extra spell slots helped for smiting, though a Dispel Magic in a 4th level slot proved quite the important move in one instance. Quicken Spell helps for action economy, thank you Quickened Protection From Evil. Distant didn't help as often as I thought it would, but I have been able to use it. I'll be going back to Paladin until I can cast Find Greater Steed because I need to fly desperately then pick up the 5th level Sorcerer for 3rd level spells. Don't know which ones yet. Haste maybe.

Single class paladins are awesome. You won't regret it, but multiclassing into a CH caster is tempting. You can't go wrong either way.

[Satori01]

This is ridiculous, your arguments are of the DM meta games against the players because how would a dragon know their breath did 96 damage and it’s enough to turn the tide of battle. Anyway your arguments against the sorcadin in that they don’t have every tool under the sun equally if not more so to the pure class Paladin. Even with shrodingers Paladin you have less tool then a sorcadin with just shield and AE to address all the challenges.

Mate, Rime of the Frost Maiden recommends that DMs use a Roc to drop 8th level characters from a lethal height into the frigid, freezing waters of the Sea of Moving Ice.

Easy mode is off, the battle station is fully operational, and the D&D designers are aiming at players! 🚷

Absorb Elements is a fine spell. It also does not protect against Necrotic, Radiant, BPS, Psychic, BTS, Poison, Disease, or bug bites.

I really have nothing to say if you think it is somehow "cheating" to even consider creatures attacking your weak points.

Given some of these Sorcadin builds come 'Online' in mid tiers....are people really claiming that encountering Radiant or Necrotic damage is unheard of in Tier 3 and Tier 4?

[Hael]

I don’t know about how others built their Sorcadin, but in practise I didn’t find myself using smites more than when I played straight Paladin. Less in fact, bc most of the time you are using font to create more first lvl slots for shield and it’s nice having a reserve.

Playing the Sorcadin felt not unlike playing an EK. And just like the EK, damage isn't a concern, rather it’s how to keep enemies from walking away from you to go after squishies bc you are unhittable. Booming blade +war caster helps, but you are usually reaction starved. Thus spell use was less about utility/damage/healing and more about tanking/area denial/movement.

Class power definitely does depend on how much combat your DM runs. It goes from ridiculously OP, to just slightly op depending on the answer.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Of course you can spend a spell slot higher than a 1st level slot for AE, but generally that falls under the classification of "Desperate Measures" does it not?

Absorb Elements can literally save your bacon from the fire. The Forgotten Realms has a long history of dragons whom also also skilled practitioner of The Art, though.

The very same Dragon being able to also Counterspell your Absorb Elements is also possibility to consider.
Same with a Beholder.

Just food for thought, so one does not become monster food, themselves
Don't you have font of magic from the sorcerer levels to convert some higher level slots to more level 1 slots?

[Skylivedk]

Gignere, let's take the previously used example of a 96 point damage Breath Weapon that is cut in half from AE...only for the PC to take full damage again, due to a timely Counterspell.

That isn't a waste of a spell, that is a well timed tactical reversal. If monster life expectancy is approximately 3 rounds, ensuring your attacks are having maximal impact is sound. I'm afraid I don't agree with your analysis here.

Do you find a 3rd level slot + reaction worth 24 damage? If it drops the Paladin, sure. Otherwise I'd see it as expensive



Is the radiant damage from a divine smite magical? Table rulings might very well have a Beholder's Central eye negate Smites.

Every book released, tends to increase the number of sources of damage that are not elemental.

Undead, Shadow Dragons, Yuan Ti Warlocks from VGtM, Shadar Kai Warlocks from Mord's, and plenty of high Tier Creatures don't use elemental effects. If your party finds itself roped into an epic quest to defeat a Mind Flayer colony or pulled into Barovia....The damage types you encounter might be different then your expectations.

On the bright side, AE only cost you the spell prepared slot when not used. That's just more Shield or PF G+E.



Of course, if you never have unexpected events happen to your character, there is no need to think about any surprises, I take it? Why speculate on possible encounters from the safety of of an electronic bulletin board, even if unusual?

On the other hand, Sorcadins can get other tools to the toolbox such as misty step, invisibility or darkness they can see through.



A 6th level Paladin/ 6th level Sorc multi-class character with a 9th level caster level, has 14 spell slots of levels 1-5 to use. This roughly translates to Two Spells and/or Divine Smites per Encounter.

A straight 12th level Paladin has 10 spell slots with 3rd level slots being the ceiling. They also have an Extra ASI.

If Sorcadin builds are rigid constructions, as others have stated... and ASI and Feat and Spells must be selected in a precise manner, what happens when circumstances change, and rigidity becomes brittleness?

Assuming AE and Shield will cover everything, is too trusting for my comfort.
Agreed. At the same time 7th level auras are arguably more situational and let of hands much more expensive in Acton Economy.

From where I stand, cantrips and Shield+AE are underrated in OP. A flexible ranged option is golden for the Paladin and cantrips like minor illusion/shape water can be all kinds of fun.

I think the big age of comparable suffering for the Sorcadins is level 9+10. The Paladins have level 2 spells and you're stuck on 2nd level spells. Aura of Courage is salt in the wounds and it hurts to use heroism to make up for it.

Next level of envy is Find Greater Steed. Concentrationless flying is so so tasty.. on the other hand 5th levels are quite tasty as well and you have Dimension Door.

I think both Shadow Sorcerer and Divine Sorcerer bring valuable abilities to the table. For the SS this is doubly true with a Devil's Sight warlock and/or moon druid in the party.

If campaign stopped at 10, I probably wouldn't MC. I had a Pala 2/Sorc X at my table who wasn't good at resource management and he often got bored when running on empty. Pretty damn tanky though

[Gtdead]

Sorcadin is the immortal god of this edition. Doesn't matter what your level split is, sorcerer 1 gives you shield so you only take damage on a crit if you so choose, sorc 3 brings blur and mirror image to counter the said crit and from there on you can solo pretty much everything. Unless the enemy has legendary actions or some other powerful ability that bypasses defenses, Sorcadin can outlast it and kill it.

[Gignere]

Mate, Rime of the Frost Maiden recommends that DMs use a Roc to drop 8th level characters from a lethal height into the frigid, freezing waters of the Sea of Moving Ice.

Easy mode is off, the battle station is fully operational, and the D&D designers are aiming at players! 🚷

Absorb Elements is a fine spell. It also does not protect against Necrotic, Radiant, BPS, Psychic, BTS, Poison, Disease, or bug bites.

I really have nothing to say if you think it is somehow "cheating" to even consider creatures attacking your weak points.

Given some of these Sorcadin builds come 'Online' in mid tiers....are people really claiming that encountering Radiant or Necrotic damage is unheard of in Tier 3 and Tier 4?

Describe how a straight class Paladin can address radiant necrotic and falling damage better than a sorcadin? In fact sorcadin can even get slow fall and fly much sooner than a pure Paladin can, and they can get access to CS and can certainly address more situations of necrotic/radiant damage than a Paladin.

[Deathtongue]

I don't think Sorceradin takes off until T3 (where 95-98% of games have long since ended) anyway. Paladin gets so many goodies from levels 1 through 9 that delaying access to, say, Extra Attack or the Oath of Conquest aura for Shield or Absorb Elements on demand is a fair trade. Sorcerer 3 / Paladin 6 is better than Paladin 9, but not hugely better. Sorcerer 7 / Paladin 6 is hugely better than Paladin 13.

The beauty of Sorceradin is that, unlike other gishes like Bladesinger or Hexblade or Swords Bard, it only has a couple of weak levels. Namely, the first level of paladin and the second level of sorcerer. And you can put off taking the second level of sorcerer until you're ready. There's no putting off the pain of Bladesinger 1 or 4 or Hexblade 3 or Swords Bard 7.

[Frogreaver]

Welp, It didnÂ’t take long before people started talking about schrodingers sorcerer.

This waiting until an obstacle is presented and then scouring the spell list for a solution stuff has to stop. A pal 6/ sorcerer 3 will have 4 sorcerer spells (Cleric ones at this level for the most part are redundant with paladin). 2 of those are shield and absorb elements. Ad hoc filling in a spell known based on the obstacle presented is cheating. ItÂ’s also cheating to say the sorcerer is able to solve more problems than he has spells known.

[Unoriginal]

Welp, It didnÂ’t take long before people started talking about schrodingers sorcerer.

This waiting until an obstacle is presented and then scouring the spell list for a solution stuff has to stop. A pal 6/ sorcerer 3 will have 4 sorcerer spells (Cleric ones at this level for the most part are redundant with paladin). 2 of those are shield and absorb elements. Ad hoc filling in a spell known based on the obstacle presented is cheating.

Yeah, it's pretty annoying.



ItÂ’s also cheating to say the sorcerer is able to solve more problems than he has spells known.

I mean hopefully all D&D characters can solve more problems than they have spell known. Otherwise it's going to be a short adventuring career.

[Willie the Duck]

I guess it just depends if you're taking short rests or not.

Really dislike how that was handled, this edition.
To be fair, all the editions have issues with the rest/recharge mechanics (even 4e had some classes with more A in their AEDU and some with more E or D). What really (not all that fervently, but boy was this an avoidable problem) gets my goat is that both the sorcadin/pallock and sorcadin only have these weird synergies because they chose to make both paladin and sorcerer special abilities (smites and sorcery points) powered by spells you might more easily get from another cha-based class. Power smites through some other means and suddenly paladins and sorcerers are just two classes who share a common preferred attribute (still an incentive to multiclass, but not this superconflation or whatever we want to call it).


If a Paladin is already taking 1/2 damage from making a Saving Throw, isn't turning the damage to 1/4 power via Absorb Elements..showboating? 🥳

Satori01, back here this was a legitimate point. Paladins are less likely to need an elemental damage-halving then your average Str-based fighter with a middling dex and who took Resilient:Wis as their off-brand save enhancement, or other example of someone who would really really benefit from Absorb Elements. Point taken. Since then you have drifted farther and farther down a line of a hyper-specific situation (to where paladins wouldn't care about 24 damage in a boss fight, have picked up shield master, or enemies are waiting to counterspell your absorb elements spells) to prove... exactly what point do you think you are proving? That Absorb Elements isn't useful to a paladin? Do you maybe want to take a step back and figure out what you are trying to show?


Welp, It didnÂ’t take long before people started talking about schrodingers sorcerer.

This waiting until an obstacle is presented and then scouring the spell list for a solution stuff has to stop. A pal 6/ sorcerer 3 will have 4 sorcerer spells (Cleric ones at this level for the most part are redundant with paladin). 2 of those are shield and absorb elements. Ad hoc filling in a spell known based on the obstacle presented is cheating. ItÂ’s also cheating to say the sorcerer is able to solve more problems than he has spells known.

I think it might be helpful if you refine what exactly you are trying to accomplish. Prove that sorcadin isn't really all that good (/not better then straight paladin)? Determine the truth of whether a sorcadin is/isn't a good choice (as compared to straight paladin)? Understand why people make the choice to MC into sorcerer as a paladin? Other?

For spells choices, I would think a not-unreasonable list for Pal6/Sor3 would be Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step (freeing up your paladin archetype choices a bit), Healing Word (a cleric one paladins do not get), and of course 4 sorcerer cantrips (including at least two ranged combat ones, of unlikely-to-be-resisted-by-same-monster elements).

[Quietus]

From secondhand experience (my wife played a sorlock, 6 Paladin/Sorc X) - there's definitely a lull in that level 8-10 range. We were in AL, and she was already using Xanathar's, so SCAGtrips were off the table. But we certainly felt the difference as soon as she took Paladin, as Shield and Absorb Elements are excellent items to have in your pocket. AE in particular is there mostly for when you fail a save, or when you will take enough damage to drop; both are excellent ways to spend a single level 1 slot plus a reaction. Level 2 spells, I couldn't even tell you what she knew, aside from Shadow Blade. There just wasn't much on the list that was commonly cast, aside from upcasting Shadow Blade into 3d8 damage. As a half orc, the look on the DM's face when she crit for 7d8 damage and he was shocked she hadn't dropped a smite on that was lovely.

The HUGE benefit from the combination is just being able to buff as a bonus action. There are a lot of spells you'd love to buff yourself with, Haste and Spirit Guardians (through Divine Soul) were both brought up in this thread. Being able to drop either of those spells while still spending an action on your attack is obscene. Straight Paladin has a lot of great things going for it, she definitely felt the slowdown in getting third level spells (particularly since, as a Vengeance paladin, she would have gotten Haste two levels earlier), and there's a lot to be said for Improved Divine Smite. But at some point, you have to compare 1d8 extra damage on 2 attacks per turn (or 3, if you're willing to push your stats back even further) against 3d8 to everything within 15 feet of you, with a strong control element.

Both options are great. But 5e is a game mechanically driven by action advantage, and adding Sorcerer allows you to claim the win on that field. We've looked at our two characters from that game (I played 2 Paladin/X Swords Bard dexadin), and honestly, between our two characters we had a pretty solid shot of covering everything a four person party should have been able to handle. A straight classed Paladin wouldn't have added nearly so much to that duo.

Also, yes, we overtuned our characters. We thought that would be the norm for AL. It was not. That's on us.

[stoutstien]

Sorcidian do really great when everything goes as planned and paladin do better when they don't. Really depends on how well your party works together and how often you can accuracy predict what you need when and where. I've DMed for roughly 12 different sorcerer/paladin multi-class PCs and all but one of them was constantly running out of gas too soon.

Sure they can nova for some big numbers but that's not exactly a unique skill in 5e nor is being really tough. Trying to do both with a single resource pool is something that takes some serious skill.

[AHF]

Welp, It didnÂ’t take long before people started talking about schrodingers sorcerer.

This waiting until an obstacle is presented and then scouring the spell list for a solution stuff has to stop. A pal 6/ sorcerer 3 will have 4 sorcerer spells (Cleric ones at this level for the most part are redundant with paladin). 2 of those are shield and absorb elements. Ad hoc filling in a spell known based on the obstacle presented is cheating. ItÂ’s also cheating to say the sorcerer is able to solve more problems than he has spells known.

Why present the idea of an 8th level character getting dropped of a cliff as an argument against Sorcadins when the straight Paladin can do nothing about falling while a 6/2 Sorcadin could have picked up Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall (a spell he or she will almost surely want for the long term If they plan to fly or ride a flying mount) and then complain about a very realistic spell choice being a good tool for that scenario?

Sorcadins won’t have every tool in the kit but they will have a much broader range of tools than a straight Paladin. That doesn’t mean there aren’t scenarios where the straight Paladin has better tools (the aura of courage situation is a good example) but the Sorcadin will have the choice to nova with smites, misty step, fly, etc. In fact, they are rewarded for picking utility spells because they can always use the slots for straight smiting damage so picking up scorching Ray or something makes much less sense than Misty Step or Blur or Levitate, etc.

[Gignere]

Sorcidian do really great when everything goes as planned and paladin do better when they don't. Really depends on how well your party works together and how often you can accuracy predict what you need when and where. I've DMed for roughly 12 different sorcerer/paladin multi-class PCs and all but one of them was constantly running out of gas too soon.

Sure they can nova for some big numbers but that's not exactly a unique skill in 5e nor is being really tough. Trying to do both with a single resource pool is something that takes some serious skill.

This is definitely true sorcadin is a high skill combo like most MC optimizations. Unless you are good at selecting spells often times this might need to be done working with the DM so you know that perhaps in this campaign feather fall is a good spell pick.

Next you need to be good at optimizing resource use. You don’t have to smite everything especially if the battle is going well for your team. Sometimes knowing when to use shield or use hps or even rely on healing is the difference between a poorly performing sorcadin vs a great one.

I think of it more like sorcadin is manual drive whereas Paladin is more automatic. The best manual drivers are better than auto, but most people are better off driving the automatic.

[Quietus]

This is definitely true sorcadin is a high skill combo like most MC optimizations. Unless you are good at selecting spells often times this might need to be done working with the DM so you know that perhaps in this campaign feather fall is a good spell pick.

Next you need to be good at optimizing resource use. You don’t have to smite everything especially if the battle is going well for your team. Sometimes knowing when to use shield or use hps or even rely on healing is the difference between a poorly performing sorcadin vs a great one.

I think of it more like sorcadin is manual drive whereas Paladin is more automatic. The best manual drivers are better than auto, but most people are better off driving the automatic.

That's probably the best way to describe the sorcadin/paladin difference. If you're just going to blindly throw spell slots into something and hope for the best, sure, you'll have more spell slots to do that with as a sorcadin. But you'll quickly wind up in a position where you don't have enough to do what you want, because you have so many options. For both of the characters I described above, we were largely putting one spell into a given combat, and then slugging it out. We would smite, occasionally, but usually with our mid-level slots that didn't have Power Spells (tm) demanding their attention. And rarely more than 1 per combat, unless something (encounter with two bodaks and a half dozen other undead in a tiny room..) truly demanded it Die Right Now.

[Nhorianscum]

That's probably the best way to describe the sorcadin/paladin difference. If you're just going to blindly throw spell slots into something and hope for the best, sure, you'll have more spell slots to do that with as a sorcadin. But you'll quickly wind up in a position where you don't have enough to do what you want, because you have so many options. For both of the characters I described above, we were largely putting one spell into a given combat, and then slugging it out. We would smite, occasionally, but usually with our mid-level slots that didn't have Power Spells (tm) demanding their attention. And rarely more than 1 per combat, unless something (encounter with two bodaks and a half dozen other undead in a tiny room..) truly demanded it Die Right Now.

From the sorc side.

IMO the big draw of smite isn't straight up Nova damage, generally we get as much or more DPR out of just going nova with upcast and "stacked" Sray/MM at a much better rate.

The big upside is dealing out that nova damage on targets with limited magic immunity.

[Guy Lombard-O]

So, does it still count as a Sorcadin if you just dip a single level into Sorcerer? Just to pick up Absorb Elements, Shield (or possibly Feather Fall), and add some cantrips for utility and a decent ranged attack option?

And is that a flat-out stupid idea?

[diplomancer]

Why present the idea of an 8th level character getting dropped of a cliff as an argument against Sorcadins when the straight Paladin can do nothing about falling while a 6/2 Sorcadin could have picked up Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall (a spell he or she will almost surely want for the long term If they plan to fly or ride a flying mount) and then complain about a very realistic spell choice being a good tool for that scenario?

Sorcadins won’t have every tool in the kit but they will have a much broader range of tools than a straight Paladin. That doesn’t mean there aren’t scenarios where the straight Paladin has better tools (the aura of courage situation is a good example) but the zSorcadin will have the choice to nova with smites, misty step, fly, etc. In fact, they are rewarded for picking utility spells because they can always use the slots for straight smiting damage so picking up scorching Ray or something makes much less sense than Misty Step or Blur or Levitate, etc.

Single classed Paladins have access to Fighter's Feather Fall AND Cleric's Feather Fall through LoH.
Pla,
Now, FLY? Really? By the time a Sorcadin (P6/SX) has access to fly a Paladin is 2 levels away from a MUCH better alternative (1 level away if P7).

[Satori01]

Satori01, back here this was a legitimate point. Paladins are less likely to need an elemental damage-halving

I would never had predicted that pointing out that Absorb Elements does not halve all types of damage would cause such consternation for such an objectively true bit of datum.

"schrodingers sorcerer" indeed. The sorcerer being discussed is a boundless well of possibility, but considering the same could be true for the environment, the creatures etc..is somehow foul play. Great, Googley, Moogley...

From the start it seems play styles like the Smite Sorcadin and the Caster Sorcadin seem a natural cleave point for examination.

Can people post some builds? Do people have Smite Budgets? How many spells/Smites are being used per Encounter. What is your Action Economy?
Details.........

Hael....so you mentioned you played a Divine Soucardin...and mentioned Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

How was juggling the Bonus Action Economy competition between Flexible Casting and Spiritual Weapon?

What advantages do you think your build had when compared to a Cleric of the Arcane for example?

[Satori01]

Why present the idea of an 8th level character getting dropped of a cliff as an argument against Sorcadins when the straight Paladin can do nothing about falling while a 6/2 Sorcadin could have picked up Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall (a spell he or she will almost surely want for the long term If they plan to fly or ride a flying mount) and then complain about a very realistic spell choice being a good tool for that scenario?


You missed, entirely the point I was attempting to make. I didn't bring up being dropped by a flying Roc into a Arctic Sea as a survival test for the classes.
I brought it up to emphasize that one should not assume that the adventure will cater to their capabilities.

If you need clarification ask for it, don't half read a post, and then misrepresent the point!

I also want to point out the Sorcerer action economy that everyone is writing about, is coming from the Cleric Spell list through Divine Soul.

[Gignere]

I also want to point out the Sorcerer action economy that everyone is writing about, is coming from the Cleric Spell list through Divine Soul.

Not really other sorcerer subclass would likely just rely more on quicken spells for action economy. Don’t get me wrong Divine souls are a very good sorcadin subclass but other subclasses can be really good too depending on the setting as well as other party members.

As to you pointing out that AE doesn’t apply to all damage you made it sound like that because it didn’t apply to all damage types it is somehow a point against the sorcadin compared to a straight Paladin but when in fact a Paladin has even less tools to address any type of elemental damages at all besides a good save that sorcadin has too.

As to having the correct spells for the sorcerer dip, that’s part of the mastery required to play a sorcadin well, which is not unlike a sorcerer or bard, working with the DM to correctly pick spells that will be useful/necessary and not overlap with other players is very important. Even moreso for a sorcadin because they need to balance between using spell slots to smite or cast.

[diplomancer]

Not really other sorcerer subclass would likely just rely more on quicken spells for action economy. Don’t get me wrong Divine souls are a very good sorcadin subclass but other subclasses can be really good too depending on the setting as well as other party members.

As to you pointing out that AE doesn’t apply to all damage you made it sound like that because it didn’t apply to all damage types it is somehow a point against the sorcadin compared to a straight Paladin but when in fact a Paladin has even less tools to address any type of elemental damages at all besides a good save that sorcadin has too.

As to having the correct spells for the sorcerer dip, that’s part of the mastery required to play a sorcadin well, which is not unlike a sorcerer or bard, working with the DM to correctly pick spells that will be useful/necessary and not overlap with other players is very important. Even moreso for a sorcadin because they need to balance between using spell slots to smite or cast.

Elemental Damage= Advantage Sorcadin (unless it's from spells, in which case Advantage Ancients Paladin)
Weapon damage= Advantage Hexadin
Other Damage Types= Advantage Paladin.

Why? Because Hit Points is a good way to deal with damage, and a Paladin has considerably more, specially once you count Lay on Hands.

[Gignere]

Elemental Damage= Advantage Sorcadin (unless it's from spells, in which case Advantage Ancients Paladin)
Attack damage= Advantage Hexadin
Poison, Necrotic, Force, Radiant, etc Damage= Advantage Paladin.

Why? Because Hit Points is a good way to deal with damage, and a Paladin has considerably more, specially once you count Lay on Hands.

It depends are the poison, necrotic, force and radiant from spells or attacks or breath weapons? If they are spells or attacks I would argue the sorcadin is better in those situations through counterspell and just having a much higher AC via shield spell and potentially stacked with other defenses like blur or mirror image.

If it is from a breath attack sure a straight Paladin would have the advantage due to higher hps.

[Deathtongue]

From the start it seems play styles like the Smite Sorcadin and the Caster Sorcadin seem a natural cleave point for examination.

Can people post some builds? Do people have Smite Budgets? How many spells/Smites are being used per Encounter. What is your Action Economy?

Here's the build I went with in Adventurer's League:

Variant Human:
L1 Feat: Resilient
STR: 13 (19-25+, I was able to trade for Gauntlets of Ogre Power and late a Belt of Fire Giant Strength)
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Note that I gamed the system some. I originally started with a 16 STR and a lower CON, but I used my Adventurer's League rebuild to set my stats that way. If I didn't have that trick, I'd instead roll 16 STR / 14 CON / 16 CHA / 8 INT / 10 WIS / 10 DEX.

Devotion Paladin 6 / Wild Sorcerer 10
Non-Oath Paladin Spells Prepared: Heroism, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds, Aid
Sorcerer Spells Prepared: Shield, Fog Cloud, Blur, Misty Step, Counterspell, Haste, Banishment, Stoneskin, Greater Invis, Dimension Door, Wall of Stone
Items of Note: +1 Full Plate, Winged Boots, Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Fire Giant Strength, Flametongue Greatsword, +1 Pike, +1 Maul, +1 Longsword, +1 Shield, Cloak of Displacement (usually displaced the Greatsword)
Metamagic: Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Twin Spell (only got to play with it for one level)

No Absorb Elements, because lol Adventurer's League. I had Fly for a really long time but I eventually replaced it with Wall of Stone because enough spellcasters at high T3 had availability to Fly and I had Winged Boots. I also did a last-minute swap into Fog Cloud because spellcasters not being able to see the party ends up screwing over spellcasting monsters a lot more than you'd think.

I didn't smite that much, even for short workdays, unless I rolled a critical hit. My go-to tactic was Sacred Weapon + Quickened Haste/Dimension Door -> 2 or three GWM Attacks + Quickened Booming Blade/Wrathful Smite.

A lot of my higher-level slots ended up being Aid bait or fuel for Sorcery points.

[Nhorianscum]

I would never had predicted that pointing out that Absorb Elements does not halve all types of damage would cause such consternation for such an objectively true bit of datum.

"schrodingers sorcerer" indeed. The sorcerer being discussed is a boundless well of possibility, but considering the same could be true for the environment, the creatures etc..is somehow foul play. Great, Googley, Moogley...

From the start it seems play styles like the Smite Sorcadin and the Caster Sorcadin seem a natural cleave point for examination.

Can people post some builds? Do people have Smite Budgets? How many spells/Smites are being used per Encounter. What is your Action Economy?
Details.........

Hael....so you mentioned you played a Divine Soucardin...and mentioned Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

How was juggling the Bonus Action Economy competition between Flexible Casting and Spiritual Weapon?

What advantages do you think your build had when compared to a Cleric of the Arcane for example?

I imagine the sorcerer list will almost always be the standard blaster/buffer/BC generalist list as that's just what suits the sorcadin multi.

If folks started naming oddball pulls from outside this I'd be skeptical but so far we've not taken any deep dives.

IE a DS binder/buffer sorc build on a pal6/spec14 split would raise all the eyebrows.

[diplomancer]

It depends are the poison, necrotic, force and radiant from spells or attacks or breath weapons? If they are spells or attacks I would argue the sorcadin is better in those situations through counterspell and just having a much higher AC via shield spell and potentially stacked with other defenses like blur or mirror image.

If it is from a breath attack sure a straight Paladin would have the advantage due to higher hps.

Best one from attacks is, like I mentioned, the Hexadin (or the Paladin with a Sorc Dip, which is not a Sorcadin). A 2 level dip in Hexblade gives you an average of 7 extra castings of Shield per day. Hard to beat that.

Blur comes online at level 11, where more and more creatures simply bypass it. Mirror Image, coming online at level 9, is slightlt better.

Now, from spells, like I said, the best is the Ancients Paladin, who helps not only himself but the whole party. There are many ways to bypass counterspell (distance being the easiest one).

[Gignere]

Best one from attacks is, like I mentioned, the Hexadin (or the Paladin with a Sorc Dip, which is not a Sorcadin). A 2 level dip in Hexblade gives you an average of 7 extra castings of Shield per day. Hard to beat that.

Blur comes online at level 11, where more and more creatures simply bypass it. Mirror Image, coming online at level 9, is slightlt better.

Now, from spells, like I said, the best is the Ancients Paladin, who helps not only himself but the whole party. There are many ways to bypass counterspell (distance being the easiest one).

If we are talking about distances that beats counterspell the straight class Paladin are even more SoL because of their lack of range options. A straight class Paladin can’t easily fight things that can cast/nuke outside of CS range. Sure you beat CS in that case but the straight class Paladin will be kited from hell and back.

[AHF]

You missed, entirely the point I was attempting to make. I didn't bring up being dropped by a flying Roc into a Arctic Sea as a survival test for the classes.
I brought it up to emphasize that one should not assume that the adventure will cater to their capabilities.

If you need clarification ask for it, don't half read a post, and then misrepresent the point!

I also want to point out the Sorcerer action economy that everyone is writing about, is coming from the Cleric Spell list through Divine Soul.

You made the point that a single classed Paladin is better at dealing with the unexpected. I think the opposite is the case. Sorcadins should have a much broader range of options to draw on to deal with the unexpected based on access to the Sorcerer which contain many more versatile / utility / etc. spells to confront that unexpected. Things like dispel magic/counterspell, illusions, teleports, battlefield control options, survivability options (shield, blur, blink, mirror image, etc.), polymorph, etc. are much more available to Paladins that multiclass with a full caster. That doesn't begin to touch on cleric spells through Divine Soul. Which of these options are available to a particular Sorcadins will vary with design but they should have a more versatile kit of tools to confront the unexpected than a pure Paladin if they have put any thought into utility.

[Nhorianscum]

If we are talking about distances that beats counterspell the straight class Paladin are even more SoL because of their lack of range options. A straight class Paladin can’t easily fight things that can cast/nuke outside of CS range. Sure you beat CS in that case but the straight class Paladin will be kited from hell and back.

It's hard to kite a hasted pegasus's 270 ft/round movement.

[AHF]

It's hard to kite a hasted pegasus's 270 ft/round movement.

Once Find Greater Steed comes online at level 13, the Paladin's ranged limitations become much, much, much less of an issue and in normal combats in environments where that movement is available it becomes largely become irrelevant. (That is even more the case if you are talking about a Vengeance Paladin who can cast haste or if you have a caster in the group who can buff the Paladin like that).

[Gignere]

It's hard to kite a hasted pegasus's 270 ft/round movement.

Like I said shrodinger’s Paladin, level 13 vengeance Paladin with ancients aura, is better than a sorcadin, which I won’t argue against because it is better.

Also nothing stops a sorcadin from getting a scroll of find greater steed and use it.

[Willie the Duck]

I would never had predicted that pointing out that Absorb Elements does not halve all types of damage would cause such consternation for such an objectively true bit of datum.
You suggested that sorcadin casting Absorb Elements (something I am guessing a huge number of people reading the thread probably have done, if they have tried sorcadins) was somehow 'showboating.' I pretty much guessed the eventual outcome right from that point on. Intentionally or not, you stumbled into a 'I'm better than you are, people who <something relatively reasonable>' argument. Forum-goers aren't stupid and they can smell condescension from a weak supposed position of strength like sharks smelling blood in the water. From where I am standing, this looks like a self-inflicted wound.


"schrodingers sorcerer" indeed. The sorcerer being discussed is a boundless well of possibility, but considering the same could be true for the environment, the creatures etc..is somehow foul play. Great, Googley, Moogley...
I don't think that's something people will see as something you were resisting. You threw on Shield Master to your paladin and gave them a nap after their boss battle when someone came up with a situation where your position seemed less favored. You were giving at least as well as you were receiving in terms of Schrödingering the scenario/dragging the goalposts all over the field.


So, does it still count as a Sorcadin if you just dip a single level into Sorcerer? Just to pick up Absorb Elements, Shield (or possibly Feather Fall), and add some cantrips for utility and a decent ranged attack option?

And is that a flat-out stupid idea?

There's no one in charge of the definition, so whatever you think I guess. It certainly seems relevant to the thread.

I certainly don't think it is flat-out stupid, but I also don't think most people in-thread aren't talking about something being stupid or not, but merely whether doing X or Y (or in your case Z) is more effective. None of these builds or concepts are stupid, although some might be pennywise and pound foolish, a bad choice given what you give up for them, or maybe there's a less costly alternative route to getting what you need (depending on what you need).

Personally, I think a 1-level sorc dip makes a lot of sense, particularly if you are going to go with a strength based build. I mean, what are you going to do when you can't get to the enemy (because you aren't a Schrödinger's paladin and thus actual gameplay gets in the way)? Throw a single javelin? I think this idea only gets shoved to the wayside these days because there is so much discussion abounding around a 1- (or 2-, or 3-) level warlock (hexblade) dip

[diplomancer]

If we are talking about distances that beats counterspell the straight class Paladin are even more SoL because of their lack of range options. A straight class Paladin can’t easily fight things that can cast/nuke outside of CS range. Sure you beat CS in that case but the straight class Paladin will be kited from hell and back.

That's what Find Greater Steed is for. Unless we are talking very tight dungeons (which are relatively rare in later tiers), single classes Paladins have the best mobility in the game.

Really, this type of comment makes me think you never played a tier 3 or 4 Paladin before.

Counterspell is available for exactly 2 levels before FGS comes online (on the build we are discussing, P6/SX). Yes, for those 2 levels you are in trouble (assuming there are no other casters in the party. It's a team game)



Personally, I think a 1-level sorc dip makes a lot of sense, particularly if you are going to go with a strength based build. I mean, what are you going to do when you can't get to the enemy (because you aren't a Schrödinger's paladin and thus actual gameplay gets in the way)? Throw a single javelin? I think this idea only gets shoved to the wayside these days because there is so much discussion abounding around a 1- (or 2-, or 3-) level warlock (hexblade) dip

There are, approximately, 3 "sorcadin builds"
1- The Sorcerer who dips Paladin (P2/SX)
2- The Sorcadin proper (P6/SX)
3- The Paladin who dips Sorcerer (S1-3/PX)

I believe that, unless it's a "dragon-heavy" campaign (so you can expect Absorb Elements to pull heavy duty), type 3 is strictly worse than the Hexadin

[Frogreaver]

Why present the idea of an 8th level character getting dropped of a cliff as an argument against Sorcadins when the straight Paladin can do nothing about falling while a 6/2 Sorcadin could have picked up Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall (a spell he or she will almost surely want for the long term If they plan to fly or ride a flying mount) and then complain about a very realistic spell choice being a good tool for that scenario?

1. I didn't suggest a character being dropped off a cliff.
2. You said, "i could have picked up featherfall". You might could have, but you didn't, so it doesn't really matter. You don't get to post hoc pick spells after a scenario is presented. That's cheating. If you want to make the case that sorcerers will regularly use one of their very limited sorcerer spells known on feather fall I'm all ears - but that's going to be a rather hard hill to climb.


Sorcadins won’t have every tool in the kit but they will have a much broader range of tools than a straight Paladin.

As an example, a level 9 sorcadin (Pal 6 Sorc 3) has a whopping 4 sorcerer spells in their kit for dealing with problems. At this same level the paladin has a subclass feature, an ASI and Access to level 3 Paladin spells, more hp, more lay on hands. I know which one of those 2 I think can solve more problems at that particular level.

By level 11 the sorcadin finally reaches 3rd level spells. He has a whopping 6 sorcerer spells known.


That doesn’t mean there aren’t scenarios where the straight Paladin has better tools (the aura of courage situation is a good example) but the Sorcadin will have the choice to nova with smites, misty step, fly, etc. In fact, they are rewarded for picking utility spells because they can always use the slots for straight smiting damage so picking up scorching Ray or something makes much less sense than Misty Step or Blur or Levitate, etc.

More Schrodingers sorcerer - Throwing spells form the sorcerer spell list to the wall and hoping 1 sticks...

[Dork_Forge]

Like I said shrodinger’s Paladin, level 13 vengeance Paladin with ancients aura, is better than a sorcadin, which I won’t argue against because it is better.

Also nothing stops a sorcadin from getting a scroll of find greater steed and use it.

A prepared caster like a Paladin having a permanent until death/dispel summons isn't Schrodinger's Paladin, it's reasonably expected since it's an awesome spell that besides Bards stealing it, only they get.

Expecting a Sorcadin to be able to get it on a Scroll isn't a reasonable expectation imo and it's not even guranteed if they do. Wouldn't they need to be a high enough Paladin to be able to cast it safely? Otherwise they need to pass a casting check.

[diplomancer]

A prepared caster like a Paladin having a permanent until death/dispel summons isn't Schrodinger's Paladin, it's reasonably expected since it's an awesome spell that besides Bards stealing it, only they get.

Expecting a Sorcadin to be able to get it on a Scroll isn't a reasonable expectation imo and it's not even guranteed if they do. Wouldn't they need to be a high enough Paladin to be able to cast it safely? Otherwise they need to pass a casting check.



A casting check on an ability score they probably dumped and, unless they started with Sorcerer (thus giving up on Heavy Armor), on a skill that is not on their class list. Good luck, you are going to need it

But since we are talking about magical items... A Paladin can give Greater Steeds to ALL the party with a Ring of Spell Storing.

Find Greater Steed is so good to a Paladin that I would keep it prepared even AFTER I've summoned the steed (and would use the last 4th level slot for smites or other spells very reluctantly). So, no, not Schrodinger's Paladin at all.

[Frogreaver]

A prepared caster like a Paladin having a permanent until death/dispel summons isn't Schrodinger's Paladin, it's reasonably expected since it's an awesome spell that besides Bards stealing it, only they get.

Expecting a Sorcadin to be able to get it on a Scroll isn't a reasonable expectation imo and it's not even guranteed if they do. Wouldn't they need to be a high enough Paladin to be able to cast it safely? Otherwise they need to pass a casting check.

Yep. It's Crazy the hoops that people jump through... There's no Paladin I'm aware of that wouldn't take Find Greater Steed. It's an amazing in combat and out of combat spell. But even if there was, the nice thing with Paladins is they can always change up their spell list day to day if something seems like it would be better. Sorcerers don't get that option except at level up.

[Gignere]

A prepared caster like a Paladin having a permanent until death/dispel summons isn't Schrodinger's Paladin, it's reasonably expected since it's an awesome spell that besides Bards stealing it, only they get.

Expecting a Sorcadin to be able to get it on a Scroll isn't a reasonable expectation imo and it's not even guranteed if they do. Wouldn't they need to be a high enough Paladin to be able to cast it safely? Otherwise they need to pass a casting check.

No the poster was saying how ancients aura is what he finds stronger in the case of a dragon’s breath and posted that the way to beat CS is by keeping more than 60 feet away. Then later arguing that a hasted FGS Paladin is unkiteable.

FGS is great but spell scrolls are some of the easiest items to buy and in AL you are essentially guaranteed to get one if you so choose. The check is an ability check based on spell casting ability, so having a good charisma makes it a decently easy check for the average sorcadin or Paladin for that matter.

In fact the one way to have access to both ancient aura and a hasted FGS is by playing an ancient sorcadin, something like 7/x or 8/x split.

[Frogreaver]

No the poster was saying how ancients aura is what he finds stronger in the case of a dragon’s breath and posted that the way to beat CS is by keeping more than 60 feet away. Then later arguing that a hasted FGS Paladin is unkiteable.

FGS is great but spell scrolls are some of the easiest items to buy and in AL you are essentially guaranteed to get one if you so choose. The check is an ability check based on spell casting ability, so having a good charisma makes it a decently easy check for the average sorcadin or Paladin for that matter.

In fact the one way to have access to both ancient aura and a hasted FGS is by playing an ancient sorcadin, something like 7/x or 8/x split.

Why hold AL up as a standard? It’s a tiny fraction of all the play that happens.

[Gignere]

Why hold AL up as a standard? It’s a tiny fraction of all the play that happens.

I typically play wizards and I haven’t met a DM that restricted spell scrolls yet certain other items were banned or limited but not spell scrolls. Of course YMMV depending on table.

[Frogreaver]

I typically play wizards and I haven’t met a DM that restricted spell scrolls yet certain other items were banned or limited but not spell scrolls. Of course YMMV depending on table.

I think you are conflating your own experiences as far more representative than they actually are.

[diplomancer]

No the poster was saying how ancients aura is what he finds stronger in the case of a dragon’s breath and posted that the way to beat CS is by keeping more than 60 feet away. Then later arguing that a hasted FGS Paladin is unkiteable.

FGS is great but spell scrolls are some of the easiest items to buy and in AL you are essentially guaranteed to get one if you so choose. The check is an ability check based on spell casting ability, so having a good charisma makes it a decently easy check for the average sorcadin or Paladin for that matter.

In fact the one way to have access to both ancient aura and a hasted FGS is by playing an ancient sorcadin, something like 7/x or 8/x split.

You are mixing up different posters, as I was the one who mentioned ancients aura (and it's not in the case of dragon breath, but of spells) and how CS is easy to counter, and I never mentioned hasted FGS Paladin (because it's totally overkill, just regular FGS makes you unkitable. I've never been in a situation where having a 180' movement speed was not enough- Ancients Paladin can get to 210' if need be with the cost of a bonus Action and a 2nd level slot).

As to the "well, scrolls" argument, though I misremembered the rules, we are still talking about a 40% chance of failure. But let's say you are lucky. What will you do if your mount dies? Carry dozens of copies of the scroll?

[Frogreaver]

I think we need to start with the list of known sorcerer spells per sorcadin level.

Obviously level 1 sorcerer is shield and absorb elements
Level 2 sorcerer adds expedious retreat? Magic missile? or ???
Level 3 adds blur? or misty step? or levitation? or spiritual weapon or ???
Level 4 adds ?
Level 5 adds haste? or fly? or counterspell? or fireball? or hypnotic pattern? or spirit guardians?
Level 6 adds ???
Level 7 adds polymorph? or dimension door? or banishment? or ???

[Dork_Forge]

No the poster was saying how ancients aura is what he finds stronger in the case of a dragon’s breath and posted that the way to beat CS is by keeping more than 60 feet away. Then later arguing that a hasted FGS Paladin is unkiteable.

FGS is great but spell scrolls are some of the easiest items to buy and in AL you are essentially guaranteed to get one if you so choose. The check is an ability check based on spell casting ability, so having a good charisma makes it a decently easy check for the average sorcadin or Paladin for that matter.

In fact the one way to have access to both ancient aura and a hasted FGS is by playing an ancient sorcadin, something like 7/x or 8/x split.

From what I can see froma cursory look back, no they weren't. You were replying to Nhorianscum and as far as I can see they haven't mentioned Ancients aura (at least not on Page 3), so I think you're mixing up different poster's replies, nobody has claimed a Hasted FGS with Ancients aura that I can see.

I don't think AL should be the standard, but I also don't think it's as trivial as you're making it out to be:

- I just looked through the Season 10 players guide, there's no mention of buying scrolls, at all

-Season 9's player guide let you buy them, for 500GP when AL seems particularly stingy on gold. Sure you can buy them, but you'll be missing out on buying other things up to that point.

-Even if you get your hands on one you need to make a DC14 caster check, as far as I can see you don't get to add your prof to this, so even assuming a +5 Cha (which is incredibly unlikely given you MC'd and need physical stats) you have a 40% of failing and losing the scroll you shelled out gold for.

On AL and gold: using the time based leveling and the minimum gold per level it looks like you can gain a whopping 240GP in tier 1 and 1,440GP in tier 2, or a combined total of 1,680GP up to the point that you can hit level 11. You could probably get more, but gold is capped at a maximum per level so it's not like you're having a run away amount of money in AL. You're presumably using heavy armor or medium armor, and need gold to advance to better armors, that's already looking tight unless you're using medium and even then? You're not going to have much left if you're buying potions and scrolls, getting that FGS scroll is extremely unlikely in loot unless you DM is catering to you and it represents such a large amount of your career gold that it isn't a trivial purchase (and is expensive enough that if the Steed dies, then you're SOL because you can't afford another scroll for a while).

It doesn't seem a reasonable expectation to get a FGS from a scroll at all.

[Gignere]

You are mixing up different posters, as I was the one who mentioned ancients aura (and it's not in the case of dragon breath, but of spells) and how CS is easy to counter, and I never mentioned hasted FGS Paladin (because it's totally overkill, just regular FGS makes you unkitable. I've never been in a situation where having a 180' movement speed was not enough- Ancients Paladin can get to 210' if need be with the cost of a bonus Action and a 2nd level slot).

As to the "well, scrolls" argument, though I misremembered the rules, we are still talking about a 40% chance of failure. But let's say you are lucky. What will you do if your mount dies? Carry dozens of copies of the scroll?

Yeah basically what high level sorcerers/wizards and clerics do. Have a bunch of scrolls for spells that you don’t cast everyday but know it will be great to have when you need them as backups and to extend your spell slots.

Why dozens? I mean I know some DMs are mean but usually FGS are tough enough to survive except for the toughest of encounters. Having a couple of backup scrolls should be plenty.

Also if you were building for FGS whether as Paladin or sorcadin or even bard you’ll probably want to get mounted combatant and upcast aid so making the Mount really tough.

[Satori01]

Not really other sorcerer subclass would likely just rely more on quicken spells for action economy.


Of course, but Quicken Spell Metamagic has a finite amount of uses.
Presuming at least 2 levels are taken in the Paladin class, a Sorcadin can use the Quicken Spell metamagic roughly Once to Nine times per day.
(Roughly, Flexible Casting will cause fluctuations).

The more Sorcery points a character has, the less likely the character is to have enough levels in Paladin to have Extra Attack.

Quicken Spell doesn't play well with Spiritual Weapon.
A Quickened Spirit Guardians is nice, you can cast and use the Dodge Action.




Here's the build I went with in Adventurer's League:

Variant Human:
L1 Feat: Resilient
STR: 13 (19-25+, I was able to trade for Gauntlets of Ogre Power and late a Belt of Fire Giant Strength)
DEX: 10
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 16


Devotion Paladin 6 / Wild Sorcerer 10
Non-Oath Paladin Spells Prepared: Heroism, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite, Shield of Faith, Cure Wounds, Aid
Sorcerer Spells Prepared: Shield, Fog Cloud, Blur, Misty Step, Counterspell, Haste, Banishment, Stoneskin, Greater Invis, Dimension Door, Wall of Stone
Items of Note: +1 Full Plate, Winged Boots, Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Fire Giant Strength, Flametongue Greatsword, +1 Pike, +1 Maul, +1 Longsword, +1 Shield, Cloak of Displacement (usually displaced the Greatsword)
Metamagic: Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Twin Spell (only got to play with it for one level)

No Absorb Elements, because lol Adventurer's League. I had Fly for a really long time but I eventually replaced it with Wall of Stone because enough spellcasters at high T3 had availability to Fly and I had Winged Boots. I also did a last-minute swap into Fog Cloud because spellcasters not being able to see the party ends up screwing over spellcasting monsters a lot more than you'd think.

I didn't smite that much, even for short workdays, unless I rolled a critical hit. My go-to tactic was Sacred Weapon + Quickened Haste/Dimension Door -> 2 or three GWM Attacks + Quickened Booming Blade/Wrathful Smite.

A lot of my higher-level slots ended up being Aid bait or fuel for Sorcery points.

I would call that a solid character. You are also playing the same basic role as a Paladin....with more Batman-like utility.

In no way am I intending to insult anyone's character choices, Sorcadin's look like fun to play. Yet a near equal split on the classes winds up with a character that plays a lot like a single class Cleric or Paladin, and not really that much better, if at all.

[Deathtongue]

I would call that a solid character. You are also playing the same basic role as a Paladin....with more Batman-like utility.'More Batman-like utility' is selling the character way too short. Being able to Quicken a Fog Cloud after laying into an enemy with a full attack completely changes the landscape. So is Quickening a Dimension Door to bring along another slower melee buttkicker. For one level, I was able to Twin a Stoneskin and make certain encounters into a joke. Heighten Spelling a Wrathful Smite completely broke certain encounters, even if they had a high WIS. Before I swapped out Fly, being able to get the melee frontline flying sucked the difficulty out of a lot of encounters.

[Chugger]

A lot of sorcadin guides and debates I've seen seem too focused on added smiting power and don't get into the added flexibility of sorcadin.

Yes, sorcadin's can smite a lot more, but they can also do things like quicken cast blade ward if they feel a lot of melee attacks are coming their way - and still have an action. This helps a sorcadin make up for the fact that it has lower hit points.

They can one-dip hexblade and get armor of agathys, or go conquest, and have AoA upcast on them - with blade ward keeping it from being whittled away so fast. Compel duel w/ AoA on, and you can really mess up an enemy. You hurt it every round, and it hurts itself if it hurts you.

A divine soul sorcadin can be cranking spirit guardians and spiritual weapon in a long grindy battle, where using quicken over and over doesn't really make sense.

So much depends on your campaign. AL hardcover vs AL modules - home brew campaign - each has their own feel, their own pace. Almost every AL module ends in a boss fight and not too many fights leading up to it. Some campaigns have long grueling days and few long or short rests.

Yes, sorcadin takes a while to come on line, but you are a straight Paladin til it does come on line - so it's really not that big a deal. You notice the difference the moment you get extra slots to smite with, and it just gets better. There are several pal spells a sorcadin will miss: find greater steed is one - the lvl 5 area buff that helps w/ ST for party is another. Straight Pal is still powerful and also worth playing.

[Satori01]

'More Batman-like utility' is selling the character way too short.

I used a fuzzily defined term and confusion resulted. Batman like utility is high praise, or at least,that was what I intended to convey.

[Deathtongue]

So much depends on your campaign. AL hardcover vs AL modules - home brew campaign - each has their own feel, their own pace. Almost every AL module ends in a boss fight and not too many fights leading up to it. Some campaigns have long grueling days and few long or short rests.

Personally, I think the Sorceradin does better in home games than it does in AL.

A) The Sorceradin is greedy on stats. The 27-point buy is often worse than what you'd get with 4d6, drop lowest d6, arrange in order and I know a lot of games more generous than that -- including giving free feats.

B) Booming/Greenflame Blade + Divine Soul is a killer combination that's not AL legal -- and with Tasha's coming out, the AL Sorceradin is going to fall even more behind.

C) The Sorceradin's big strength is that it's actually more durable than the Paladin. The Paladin's only good two default endurance-extending spells are Protection from Evil and Good and Shield of Faith. The Sorceradin also gets Shield, Absorb Elements, Blur, better slots to use with Aid, Haste, Greater Invis, Stoneskin, and the ability to recycle unused very high level slots into lower-level spell slots. So while you could just go on a smite-spree, your real strength compared to the paladin if your DM puts you through a 5-7 encounter gauntlet with only a couple of short rests between.

The only benefit AL grants is that, if you're playing certain hardcovers (not Saltmarsh or Tomb of Annihilation, I mean more Curse of Strahd) or you game out your treasure points and trades you may be able to get more treasure at earlier levels than home games. But you don't really need it. All my Sorceradin needed was a magic weapon and one of those strength-replacement items, and if I didn't get one of those I could've just played my character differently -- including just playing a Sorcerer 1 / Paladin 6 / Sorcerer X Half-Elf Dexadin and switching if a strength-replacement item dropped.

[Frogreaver]

level 13 vengeance Paladin with ancients aura, is better than a sorcadin, which I won’t argue against because it is better.

This is a strange comment, but a very useful one as it gives us some bounds. To you:

Vengance Paladin 13 < Pal 6 Sorc 7 < Vengance Paladin 13 + Ancients Aura.

That's some pretty tight bounds IMO. So much so IMO that some very minor campaign parameters could lead toward either legitimate build being "better".

[Gignere]

This is a strange comment, but a very useful one as it gives us some bounds. To you:

Vengance Paladin 13 < Pal 6 Sorc 7 < Vengance Paladin 13 + Ancients Aura.

That's some pretty tight bounds IMO. So much so IMO that some very minor campaign parameters could lead toward either legitimate build being "better".

Yes I don’t think anyone here will argue that sorcadin is that much better than a straight classed Paladin. Paladin is a strong class already so anything that might be even a little better would stand out.

Also I think a sorcadin that is 7 pal / x sorc or 8 pal / x sorc can literally get both FGS + haste and Ancients aura with but a scroll.

[Frogreaver]

A lot of sorcadin guides and debates I've seen seem too focused on added smiting power and don't get into the added flexibility of sorcadin.

Maybe because they aren't really any more flexible than a single class Paladin - at least not till near max level.


Yes, sorcadin's can smite a lot more, but they can also do things like quicken cast blade ward if they feel a lot of melee attacks are coming their way - and still have an action. This helps a sorcadin make up for the fact that it has lower hit points.

More schrodinger's Sorcadin. Let's look at what's actually going to happen in an adventuring day. You'll use a few slots on shield/absorb elements. You'll use a few sorcery points on quicken/twin a few buff/debuff spells. You'll maybe use wrathful smite on the solo. By the end of the day, you are not really divine smiting very much.

At level 11 you'll probably have something resembling the following sorcerer spells: Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step, Blur, Haste, Counter Spell. Paladin spells will look something like: Bless, Healing word, Wrathful Smite, Protection from evil and Good, compelled duel, find steed + subclass spells

Those 6 spells don't add a ton of versatility. They are all primarily combat related, defensive and mobility with counterspell.
***Note a level 11 Paladin will additionally have shield of faith and aura of vitality prepared

Compare this to a typical level 11 Paladin's Adventuring Day. His attacks are much stronger than the Sorcadins due to divine smite. Aura of vitality is an absurdly good defensive spell - which is going to rival the role of shield/absrob elemetns/blur. Mobility can be a problem, but Paladin subclasses often have things that can help there - and if not they come with solid buff spells/channel divinities (bless comes to mind). You'll have quite a few slots for divine smite because if you can get to the enemy you'll most likely be attacking it as opposed to spending slots.


Yes I don’t think anyone here will argue that sorcadin is that much better than a straight classed Paladin. Paladin is a strong class already so anything that might be even a little better would stand out.

Also I think a sorcadin that is 7 pal / x sorc or 8 pal / x sorc can literally get both FGS + haste and Ancients aura with but a scroll.

You have to assume:
1. you can buy whatever scroll you want
2. that you have enough gold to buy it, and a few back up scrolls
3. that your steed doesn't die too many times before you can replace the back up scrolls
4. that you have enough gold to replace the backup scrolls

That's a alot of assumptions that aren't going to be true of alot of games. And then on top of that you also want to delay sorcerer levels even further. The point you are trying to make just isn't well thought out IMO.


B) Booming/Greenflame Blade + Divine Soul is a killer combination that's not AL legal -- and with Tasha's coming out, the AL Sorceradin is going to fall even more behind.

I'm not impressed with that combo. Especially not given the few times that you will do it in a typicaly adventuring day - and that it's incredibly easy to get a bonus action attack with polearm master.


The Sorceradin's big strength is that it's actually more durable than the Paladin. The Paladin's only good two default endurance-extending spells are Protection from Evil and Good and Shield of Faith.

I suggest you forgot a major Paladin durability spell, Aura of Vitality, which coupled with lay on hands and higher base hp puts the paladin back in the running for more durability IMO.

[AHF]

You might could have, but you didn't, so it doesn't really matter. You don't get to post hoc pick spells after a scenario is presented. That's cheating. If you want to make the case that sorcerers will regularly use one of their very limited sorcerer spells known on feather fall I'm all ears - but that's going to be a rather hard hill to climb.



As an example, a level 9 sorcadin (Pal 6 Sorc 3) has a whopping 4 sorcerer spells in their kit for dealing with problems. At this same level the paladin has a subclass feature, an ASI and Access to level 3 Paladin spells, more hp, more lay on hands. I know which one of those 2 I think can solve more problems at that particular level.

By level 11 the sorcadin finally reaches 3rd level spells. He has a whopping 6 sorcerer spells known.



More Schrodingers sorcerer - Throwing spells form the sorcerer spell list to the wall and hoping 1 sticks...

What are you talking about? I said feather fall is a natural choice for any Paladin who plans on flying or riding a flying mount. How is it “cheating” to point that out? Level 8 was called out for that scenario. Most Sorcadins will take Shield and Absorb Elements then have a third first level spell to pick. A good % will take feather fall.

For example, in this guide of best sorcerer spells there are four **** non-offensive (I’ve argued that offensive choices are suboptimal at early levels for a Sorcadin) spells:

Absorb Elements, Shield, Feather Fall and Silent Image

https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/sorcerer/spells.html

An optimized level 8 Sorcadin following this guide would pick either Feather Fall or Silent Image. Both have obvious utility that no pure Paladin can replicate via class spells or features.

It seems like you don’t want to acknowledge the spells that a Sorcerer gets at all because they can’t select all of them. They will be picking the ones they believe are most impactful in the most important array of circumstances. There are too many great, high utility spells for the Sorcadin to get them all for sure but every one they get should be a high impact choice if they have put any effort into selection.

[Frogreaver]

What are you talking about? I said feather fall is a natural choice for any Paladin who plans on flying or riding a flying mount. How is it “cheating” to point that out? Level 8 was called out for that scenario. Most Sorcadins will take Shield and Absorb Elements then have a third first level spell to pick. A good % will take feather fall.

For example, in this guide of best sorcerer spells there are four **** non-offensive (I’ve argued that offensive choices are suboptimal at early levels for a Sorcadin) spells:

Absorb Elements, Shield, Feather Fall and Silent Image

https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/sorcerer/spells.html

An optimized level 8 Sorcadin following this guide would pick either Feather Fall or Silent Image. Both have obvious utility that no pure Paladin can replicate via class spells or features.

It seems like you don’t want to acknowledge the spells that a Sorcerer gets at all because they can’t select all of them. They will be picking the ones they believe are most impactful in the most important array of circumstances. There are too many great, high utility spells for the Sorcadin to get them all for sure but every one they get should be a high impact choice if they have put any effort into selection.

But the sorcadin isn't getting the find greater steed spell (takes 13 levels of paladin). So I must ask, what flying mount does he need feather fall for? And if he doesn't need it for a flying mount from find greater steed, then what the heck is he doing taking it?

[AHF]

But the sorcadin isn't getting the find greater steed spell (takes 13 levels of paladin). So I must ask, what flying mount does he need feather fall for? And if he doesn't need it for a flying mount from find greater steed, then what the heck is he doing taking it?

Any Paladin can summon a greater steed with a scroll. By level 13, if any adventurer can’t afford multiple level 4 scrolls then they are doing it wrong. This is why not all pure Paladins bother to prepare FGS. The steeds are not super fragile. (Not because of scrolls but because the value of another spell prepared is enough that waiting until the next day to resummon is viable in many campaign settings).

Bear in mind that the 4* spell rating was not specific to Sorcadins but was the writer’s view for a pure sorcerer. The spell has 4* use (according to the writer) even if the player doesn’t plan to fly because adventurers encounter risks of falling not infrequently.

[Frogreaver]

Any Paladin can summon a greater steed with a scroll. By level 13, if any adventurer can’t afford multiple level 4 scrolls then they are doing it wrong. This is why not all pure Paladins bother to prepare FGS. The steeds are not super fragile. (Not because of scrolls but because the value of another spell prepared is enough that waiting until the next day to resummon is viable in many campaign settings).

Been through this scroll stuff above with another poster. It's just not a reliable tactic for a great many games. That you assume it is tells me alot.


Bear in mind that the 4* spell rating was not specific to Sorcadins but was the writer’s view for a pure sorcerer. The spell has 4* use (according to the writer) even if the player doesn’t plan to fly because adventurers encounter risks of falling not infrequently.

Feather fall is a terrible spell on a pure sorcerer and a terrible spell on a sorcadin due to spells known limitations. You just don't get enough spells known and there are much better alternatives. You are vastly overrating that spell.

EDIT: At least for sorcerers and sorcadins. For a wizard or maybe even a bard, where you have many more spells known, it's alot better.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes I don’t think anyone here will argue that sorcadin is that much better than a straight classed Paladin. Paladin is a strong class already so anything that might be even a little better would stand out.

Also I think a sorcadin that is 7 pal / x sorc or 8 pal / x sorc can literally get both FGS + haste and Ancients aura with but a scroll.


Any Paladin can summon a greater steed with a scroll. By level 13, if any adventurer can’t afford multiple level 4 scrolls then they are doing it wrong. This is why not all pure Paladins bother to prepare FGS. The steeds are not super fragile. (Not because of scrolls but because the value of another spell prepared is enough that waiting until the next day to resummon is viable in many campaign settings).

Bear in mind that the 4* spell rating was not specific to Sorcadins but was the writer’s view for a pure sorcerer. The spell has 4* use (according to the writer) even if the player doesn’t plan to fly because adventurers encounter risks of falling not infrequently.

I covered this earlier in the thread, asssuming you'll get a scroll of FGS is very unlikely unless you're in a home game where your DM basically runs magic item stores and you get a lot of Gold (after all, you'll be buying better armor right?).

For AL: They don't seem to let you buy scrolls anymore, it isn't in the season 10 player's guide. You could under season 9 rules, but it was 500GP per scroll and in AL gold is super limited.

Even if you can get a scroll you're looking at a 40% chance of failing to cast it and losing the scroll if you have maxed Cha, which is incredibly unlikely for a Sorcadin.

Assuming FGS from a scroll doesn't seem reasonable at all, never mind a back up or two for resummoning.

[Gignere]

Been through this scroll stuff above with another poster. It's just not a reliable tactic for a great many games. That you assume it is tells me alot.


This is just pure conjecture on your part, basically you are saying no one should play wizards in any games because they won’t be able to get any spells besides the 2 per level up they get. Since one should assume scrolls are not available in “a great many games”.

[Frogreaver]

This is just pure conjecture on your part, basically you are saying no one should play wizards in any games because they won’t be able to get any spells besides the 2 per level up they get. Since one should assume scrolls are not available in “a great many games”.

1. If you think a wizard needs more than the 2 spells they get per level up then something else is wrong. Anything beyond that is a nice perk, not a necessity that Wizards suck without.

2. There's a large difference in finding a random scroll in a loot table and being able to pick exactly which scroll you desire.

[Deathtongue]

I'm not impressed with that combo. Especially not given the few times that you will do it in a typicaly adventuring day - and that it's incredibly easy to get a bonus action attack with polearm master.My problem with Polearm Master is that you, especially Sorceradins, have way too much competition for your reaction and bonus action. It's a feat that starts off good and gets worse as the game goes on. Quicken Spell + Booming Blade ages much better, because you can use Quicken Spell for a bunch of other stuff and the sunk cost of a cantrip is much less than the sunk cost of an ASI.


I suggest you forgot a major Paladin durability spell, Aura of Vitality, which coupled with lay on hands and higher base hp puts the paladin back in the running for more durability IMO.Aura of Vitality is a very good spell, but as far as your go-to for defense? That is a terrible idea in T3. Durability in T3 is not about healing, even repeated bonus action healing; it's about negating/neutering attacks altogether. Spending an action and your concentration to heal an additional 2d6 per round over 5 rounds is just not as good as Blur or Protection from Evil and Good.

Don't get me wrong, it's a spell well worth preparing even for combat. Sometimes someone will go down and no one else will be able to get to them. And regardless, healing 70 damage for a third-level spell slot is a very sweet deal. But it should not be a first line of defense.


Those 6 spells don't add a ton of versatility. They are all primarily combat related, defensive and mobility with counterspell.
What are you talking about, don't add a ton of versatility??? I mean, yeah, if you're looking for noncombat potential, they're limited, but making yourself unhittable for a round or having the option to move 80 - 120 feet a round in a pinch or just teleporting hugely changes the battlefield. Misty Step is a big deal if your DM uses combat setpieces more complicated than a goat pasture. Getting disadavantage-on-demand with a high AC character is a big 'effing deal, it's literally the difference for a 10th-level character between being creamed by two angry fire giants in one round and lasting for three. Counterspell speaks for itself. And don't forget metamagic on your paladin spells; that's just the Sorcerer spell list. Do you know how good it is to be able to Heighten a Wrathful Smite? Or Twin Spell a Heroism or a Protection from Evil and Good or Sanctuary if you're a Devotion Paladin like I was? Just having Quicken Spell puts a new lease on life on marginal Paladin spells like Detect Evil and Good and Command and even Cure Wounds.

And that's just T2/early T3. When you have enough room to add spells like Fly, Stoneskin, Greater Invis, Polymorph (not a fan, TBH), and Dimension Door it gets even better.

I'm just straight-up puzzled at how you see those additional six spells and claim that they 'don't add a ton of versatility'. Aside from overlooking how those six spells can turn difficult encounters into jokes, you're also overlooking the interplay between not only those spells and metamagic, but also paladin spells and metamagic.

[Chugger]

Personally, I think the Sorceradin does better in home games than it does in AL.



Um, I play a lot of AL, and I've seen both used very effectively.

The way you make Sorcadin work in AL is to use DM rewards or trades to get your character a Belt of Giant Str and the amulet that grants 19 con. You're no longer MAD at all - rather you have ridiculous stats. You have a 20+ str, a 19 Con, and by about lvl 10 a 20 cha for a +5 aura. Or you 1-dip hexblade for the single one-hand weapon cha cheese.

Sorcadin's "all day long" smiting power is kind of wasted in AL module play, although my sorcadin friend starts off smiting and keeps smiting. He bought a scroll of summon greater steed and flies around on a Pegasus. If there are 3 fights in a module he's out of slots in the final one, every time, which may mean he over-smited in the first 2 fights but by doing hella-strong damage early the rest of us are not resource-drained at all for the final fight. And the other thing many people forget about is just how flexible Sorcadin is - they're okay casters, too, and if a fight calls for that, instead, he's not smiting, he's casting dispel magic or trying to control something or w/e is required or makes sense.

So I wouldn't say Sorcadin is bad for AL - if you know how to game AL and get the magic items you want (you can trade for them), I've seen Sorcadin be very fun and very effective.

But peoples' straight Paladin characters are good, too.

[Dork_Forge]

Um, I play a lot of AL, and I've seen both used very effectively.

The way you make Sorcadin work in AL is to use DM rewards or trades to get your character a Belt of Giant Str and the amulet that grants 19 con. You're no longer MAD at all - rather you have ridiculous stats. You have a 20+ str, a 19 Con, and by about lvl 10 a 20 cha for a +5 aura. Or you 1-dip hexblade for the single one-hand weapon cha cheese.

Sorcadin's "all day long" smiting power is kind of wasted in AL module play, although my sorcadin friend starts off smiting and keeps smiting. He bought a scroll of summon greater steed and flies around on a Pegasus. If there are 3 fights in a module he's out of slots in the final one, every time, which may mean he over-smited in the first 2 fights but by doing hella-strong damage early the rest of us are not resource-drained at all for the final fight. And the other thing many people forget about is just how flexible Sorcadin is - they're okay casters, too, and if a fight calls for that, instead, he's not smiting, he's casting dispel magic or trying to control something or w/e is required or makes sense.

So I wouldn't say Sorcadin is bad for AL - if you know how to game AL and get the magic items you want (you can trade for them), I've seen Sorcadin be very fun and very effective.

But peoples' straight Paladin characters are good, too.

You still need a 13 Str minimum and a good enough Con to live long enough to get those items. You have to be Tier 2 minimum to get those items and even then they're both very desirable (who doesn't want an amulet of Health?), so that doesn't seem like anything you can rely on... like at all.

I assume you're referring to season 9? Since season 10 doesn't seem to have any rules for buying scrolls and the chances of getting a level 4 Paladin exclusive spell in loot are so slim it isn't worth mentioning. Sorcadin's look very attractive when you can handwave their issues away with the exact items you want...

[Hael]

Hael....so you mentioned you played a Divine Soucardin...and mentioned Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon.

How was juggling the Bonus Action Economy competition between Flexible Casting and Spiritual Weapon?

What advantages do you think your build had when compared to a Cleric of the Arcane for example?

Flexible casting was more for out of combat. But in general, Sorcadin has a heavy BA and Reaction economy that is rather delicate to juggle (and is why it's not a simple class for optimal play). One does use spiritual weapon somewhat (especially for those early sorcerer lvls), but its not used as much as one would think either. Again, even though you have more slots, you are still quite constrained because of heavy resource usage. Otoh once I had spirit guardians, I used that a lot. That spell single handedly solves a lot of Sorcadin problems. So yes, you can somewhat think of a Sorcadin like a mix between a Cleric and an EK, at least the build I was using.

[cutlery]

They can one-dip hexblade and get armor of agathys, or go conquest, and have AoA upcast on them - with blade ward keeping it from being whittled away so fast. Compel duel w/ AoA on, and you can really mess up an enemy. You hurt it every round, and it hurts itself if it hurts you.





The spell ends if you attack any other creature, if you cast a spell that targets a hostile creature other than the target, if a creature friendly to you damages the target or casts a harmful spell on it, or if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from the target.


In my experience, that spell doesn't last much more than a round.

[Deathtongue]

Note that while I did a lot of stat gaming, for Sorceradins I have two contingency plans in place for a reasonably plausible worst case scenario, as opposed to an outlier scenario like a home game with no feats. That is, point buy, no guaranteed magical items, no rebuilds.

With 27-point buy, you can play a Half-Elf Dexeradin who takes their first level in Sorcerer (for the Constitution Proficiency) and play Sword and Board. Your starting stats look more like 13 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 9 WIS, and 16 CHA. First ASI and second ASIs go into CHA, third into Resilient: Wisdom, the last into DEX. If a stat-replacement item does drop, you always have the option to switch over to GWM. This has better saves and DCs and dexterity bonuses. You do less damage in melee. You have fewer options for weapons. You're missing out on WIS saving throw proficiency for much of the game. You don't have the option for heavy armor.

Alternatively, you can be a GWM Variant Human in full plate with Resilient: CON. Your starting stats are 16 STR, 10 DEX, 14 CON, 8 INT, 10 WIS, and 16 CHA. Your first ASI goes to strength, your second to Great Weapon Master, your third and fourth to Charisma.

And those are based on the contingency plans of no expected magical items and no stat rolling. I've played in plenty of home games that had both and the Sorceradin really takes off there.


So I wouldn't say Sorcadin is bad for AL - if you know how to game AL and get the magic items you want (you can trade for them), I've seen Sorcadin be very fun and very effective.I'm not saying Sorceradin is weak in AL at all -- far from it. I just think they work even better in certain home games. But even if you are playing in a restrictive home game, you can still make the build work. In fact you'll probably outperform the other melee characters even more than you would in a less restrictive game because Fighters and Barbarians need Winged Boots and +1 Swords a lot more than you do.

The best case scenario for the Sorceradin is: all hardcovers allowed, rolled stats, free multiclassing and feats, and magical items available. This describes a lot of home games.

[Deathtongue]

In my experience, that spell doesn't last much more than a round.Yeah, Compelled Duel is an awful spell that gets more awful as the game goes on. It's not even situationally good like Heroism or Detect Evil and Good, it's just bad. The Witch Bolt of the Paladin spell list.

[diplomancer]

Yeah basically what high level sorcerers/wizards and clerics do. Have a bunch of scrolls for spells that you don’t cast everyday but know it will be great to have when you need them as backups and to extend your spell slots.

Why dozens? I mean I know some DMs are mean but usually FGS are tough enough to survive except for the toughest of encounters. Having a couple of backup scrolls should be plenty.

Also if you were building for FGS whether as Paladin or sorcadin or even bard you’ll probably want to get mounted combatant and upcast aid so making the Mount really tough.

Dozens because, during the course of an adventure, you will not necessarily have easy access to a magic item shop (and because out of 5 times you try to cast it, you will waste it twice, IF you max'd CHA)

This is compounded by the limitations for scribing scrolls, as described in Xanathar:
Requirements are, among others:
1- Being able to cast the spell
2- Having proficiency in Arcana.

So, for a FGS scroll to come into existence, it's required that there be either a 13th level Paladin with Arcana proficiency somewhere in the world (has anyone here ever seen such a mythical creature at their table?) or, slightly more likely, a 10th level Bard who took it as a magical secret and has proficiency in Arcana (those exist, but are not all-too-common; also, notice the name of the class feature, magical SECRET- that hypothetical bard would have to be willing to divulge such a closely guarded secret).

If your DM handwaves all that and just lets you buy scrolls, more power to you. But not every DM is that generous.

[Sception]

I mostly play conquest paladins, who do want that level 7 aura. After level 7, comparing pure paladin to sorcadin on a conqueror is somewhat tricky. There's definitely a point at which the sorcadin pulls ahead, and that point is where the sorcadin has fear and heighten spell. But before that the pure paladin probably has better charisma so better aura of protection and better save DCs - which matters a lot to a conqueror, and earlier access to fear, which matters a lot.

The conqueror also already has very strong uses for their first level spell slots - bless, divine smite, & especially wrathful smite - so shield and endure elements, while great options, aren't as big a deal as they might be for some other builds. Especially if the character's already dipped hexblade for stat fixing and picked up shield regardless. So while there definitely comes a point where a conquest sorcadin is better than a pure conquest paladin, picking where to multiclass out is hard, because there aren't a lot of levels where Conqueror X / Sorcerer 1 is clearly superior to Conqueror X+1.

like, you need aura of conquest for the build, so... pal 8 vs. pal7/sor1? The sorcerer picks up shield & endure elements (or feather fall & endure elements, if the build is hex dipped), plus favor of the gods, but the paladin build gets +2 cha, which is absolutely massive for a conqueror, not just the usual aura of protection boost on a paladin but also +1 to all the frighten DCs that the build revolves around. You could delay sorcerer for a level, but then you're looking at shield and endure elements vs. Fear, the best frighten effect in the game. So you could delay one more level, but then you're looking at shield & ee vs. aura of courage - a decent ability in it's own right but all the more significant on a character throwing out otherwise unfriendly fear cones multiple times per day. if you delay again then you're looking at improved divine smite - not as big a deal for conquerors as for hasty PAM vengeancy pallies, but a big deal none the less. And then another ASI and again all the benefits of improved charisma since you probably took warcaster at level 4 if you thought you even might dip into sorcerer later - and its something conqueror wanted anyway with how much they rely on concentration spells. And if you waited all the way until level 12 before multiclassing then you're only one level away from improved find steed if you just wait in pally.

So looking at a 13th level paladin vs. a level 7 paladin, level 6 sorcerer... I'd say the sorcadin is the better character. Even as a conqueror, you might have a slightly lower charisma, but you can heighten twice per day before eating into spell slots, and that makes your frightens *much* harder to resist when they really need to be. And you have shield and endure elements and feather fall and misty step and when confronted with fear immune enemies you can concentrate on spirit guardians instead which is just such a huge deal. Yeah you miss out on some notable things - aura of courage, improved divine smite, improved find steed, 42 hit points when you count in lay on hands, slightly lower charisma for a couple levels yet, but you more than make up the difference.

But to get there you would have had to multi out after level 7, and that would not have been an easy choice to make at level 8, and at every single level you could have looked over at the paladin class and seen something you kind of wish you had. Levels 9 to 11, when pure paladin would have had fear and the sorcadin that multied out after level 7 doesn't, would have been particularly frustrating.

And most campaigns don't even run long enough for you to really see the later level benefits of making those earlier sacrifices.

[Deathtongue]

Yup. Sorceradin isn't hugely better than Paladin in T2 or early T3, it takes until Sorcerer 5 before the build takes off. But 99% of campaigns end before then, so. And like Malisteen mentioned, some builds that would be theoretically better with Sorceradin than the Paladin (like the Wall of Fear) come online way too late to be practical.

[diplomancer]

Yup. Sorceradin isn't hugely better than Paladin in T2 or early T3, it takes until Sorcerer 5 before the build takes off. But 99% of campaigns end before then, so. And like Malisteen mentioned, some builds that would be theoretically better with Sorceradin than the Paladin (like the Wall of Fear) come online way too late to be practical.

And another thing that is quite relevant about this, I believe; those are the very levels that, by design, take a longer time in a campaign. It's exactly between levels 7 and 12 that you can expect your characters to remain for a long time, even if the campaign is going all the way to 20. Waiting to be awesome at later levels by not being awesome at those particular levels hurt. If I´m starting at such late levels? Sure, I'd consider it. Otherwise, no.

[Snails]

And another thing that is quite relevant about this, I believe; those are the very levels that, by design, take a longer time in a campaign. It's exactly between levels 7 and 12 that you can expect your characters to remain for a long time, even if the campaign is going all the way to 20. Waiting to be awesome at later levels by not being awesome at those particular levels hurt. If I´m starting at such late levels? Sure, I'd consider it. Otherwise, no.

I have not played any multis myself, but my impression is that they do not seem significantly better until T3 (and might well be worse unless you really understand the tradeoffs you are making).

Delaying an ASI might be as high as a 10%-20% loss in offensive power, which is important when your party is not yet high enough level to have the spells and/or magic items to sidestep tough situations.

If a campaign jumps in at level 7+, I would probably be inclined to go with a multi. But most playing IME is T1/T2, so these amazing boons for my someteenth level future PC self are entirely theoretical.

[Frogreaver]

Yeah, Compelled Duel is an awful spell that gets more awful as the game goes on. It's not even situationally good like Heroism or Detect Evil and Good, it's just bad. The Witch Bolt of the Paladin spell list.

It’s a poor mans anti kiting spell.

[Sception]

I didn't mean my post to at all suggest that sorcadin is bad in levels 8 to 13 or so, or even less good than pure pally. Just that, for at least some paladin builds, there are real trade offs that matter.

Late game sorcadin is pretty much outright better than pure paladin imo, for basically any paladin build, but to get there you have to play through those mid levels with all of their actual trade offs. Unless you multiclass real late, like 13 paladin / sorcerer 7 in that order, but then you don't get to to the high level sorcadin stuff, and don't even get relatively early sorcadin stuff until about the end of your progression.

[Deathtongue]

I didn't mean my post to at all suggest that sorcadin is bad in levels 8 to 13 or so, or even less good than pure pally. Just that, for at least some paladin builds, there are real trade offs that matter.

Late game sorcadin is pretty much outright better than pure paladin imo, for basically any paladin build, but to get there you have to play through those mid levels with all of their actual trade offs. Unless you multiclass real late, like 13 paladin / sorcerer 7 in that order, but then you don't get to to the high level sorcadin stuff, and don't even get relatively early sorcadin stuff until about the end of your progression.

And anyway, if we're playing that late I think Bladesinger is better than Sorceradin (especially Half-Elf Bladesinger 17 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 3) unless your DM just straight-up says 'no' to Simulacrum, True Polymorph, Wish, and Shapechange Shenanigans.

[Sception]

eh, by the time you're talking about simulacrum and wish you're looking at characters that are pretty far afield of paladin regardless. A straight bladesinger might be comparable in some ways to a paladin 2 / sorcerer X, but while it's not technically inaccurate to call such a character a sorcadin, it's a pretty radically distinct character from a build that takes paladin to 6, picking up extra attack and aura of protection on the way. In the same way, you might say a wizard is a more effective character than a barbarian, but the two characters will play so differently that I'm not sure that matters. A paladin 20, or even a paladin 6/sorcerer 14, is a magical warrior. Bladesinger 20 is a wizard who carries a sword as a fashion accessory. I'd put a paladin 2 sorcerer 18 closer to the latter than the former.