Interaction between sonorous hum and dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell

[Venger]

Outgrowth of Q 789 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24750025&postcount=1676) in the simple RAW thread quoted below for posterity:


q 789

if i make a duration concentration spell a supernatural spell via dweomerkeeper, can it be maintained by sonorous hum?


could you give a little more info as to why? i need to explain to my dm why.

sonorous hum maintains spells
dweomerkeeper lets you cast a spell as a supernatural ability.

so wouldnt the spell stop being a spell and be classified as a supernatural ability and no longer a valid target for sonorous hum?


A 789 clarification Sure. Dweomerkeeper's supernatural spell ability specifies:

use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability


so you are still casting the spell, you are just doing so as a supernatural ability. Consequently, effects that enhance spells, such as sonorous hum, still apply.


im sorry for asking again but (i'll make a new thread if this makes it too long for this thread)
dispel magic doesnt work on the supernatural spell because its not a spell, its a su ability so its undispellable.
but at the same time your saying it is a spell and can be maintained with sonorous hum.

thats my confusion.

i understand that you can enhance this spell until the moment of casting, but at the moment of casting it becomes a supernatural effect.

so the way im seeing it is, spells and su effects are mutually exclusive, so when one becomes the other, things that work only on spells wont work on su effects.

but your saying spells that enhance spells work on the su effect while spells that dispel spells dont. i just need to know why so i can tell it to my dm. because if your right ill be extremely happy.

As far as I know, since dweomerkeeper says you are casting the spell, you are allowed to apply things that enhance spells, such as sonorous hum, onto the spell, even if you are doing so as a supernatural ability.

Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled or counterspelled and are not subject to SR nor do they normally provoke aoos.

I am not saying that this applies to all su abilities, but because this one specifies you cast a spell, it should benefit from things that apply to spells.

[sreservoir]

So the funny thing is the dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell just has you "use" an available spell (with a casting time restriction). Are you casting it, and not just using a supernatural ability that happens to duplicate the "normal" effect of and expend the spell?

[Venger]

So the funny thing is the dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell just has you "use" an available spell (with a casting time restriction). Are you casting it, and not just using a supernatural ability that happens to duplicate the "normal" effect of and expend the spell?

This is addressed in the full text of the ability:


Supernatural Spell (Su): At 4th level, the dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.
(emphasis mine)

Yes, you are casting the spell. You are just acting as though it were a supernatural ability, so are getting all the concomitant benefits.

[newguydude1]

sonorous hum is applied after the spell becomes a full supernatural ability right? because it maintains the "next spell you cast". or is it applied while casting? or before?

if its after then its not a spell when sonorous hum interacts with it. is what im thinking when i made that question.

[Venger]

You cast sonorous hum first, then you cast supernatural (whatever) as a spell. Sonorous hum then concentrates on it for you. It's still a spell, it's just "as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell" with regards to sr, counterspelling, aoos, etc.

[newguydude1]

You cast sonorous hum first, then you cast supernatural (whatever) as a spell. Sonorous hum then concentrates on it for you. It's still a spell, it's just "as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell" with regards to sr, counterspelling, aoos, etc.

so your saying its both a spell and a su effect at the same time.

so anything that affects spells that isnt covered by the su rules like dispel/spell resistance/components/etc. affects it? so what would its interaction be with absorption? su rules dont cover spell absorption.

can you cast a supernatural spell into spell storing items?

edit: so basically your saying a supernatural spell is a spell that cannot be:
1. dispelled
2. counterspelled
3. not subject to spell resistance
4. does not provoke attacks of opportunity
5. does not use components
but otherwise is still a spell and still affected by things that affect spells like absorption, spell storing item, etc.?

[magicalmagicman]

does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance

One could argue by RAW that is the definitive list of changes. So it is still dispellable, and it would be affected by Sonorous Hum.

[Venger]

so your saying its both a spell and a su effect at the same time.

so anything that affects spells that isnt covered by the su rules like dispel/spell resistance/components/etc. affects it? so what would its interaction be with absorption? su rules dont cover spell absorption.

can you cast a supernatural spell into spell storing items?

edit: so basically your saying a supernatural spell is a spell that cannot be:
1. dispelled
2. counterspelled
3. not subject to spell resistance
4. does not provoke attacks of opportunity
5. does not use components
but otherwise is still a spell and still affected by things that affect spells like absorption, spell storing item, etc.?
It is a spell that has the traits of a su ability.

Yes, you could cast it into a spell storing item.

Absorption would function against it if it were a ranged, targeted effect.

[newguydude1]

It is a spell that has the traits of a su ability.

ok so thats the question here. is it a su ability, or is it a spell with su traits


At 4th level, the dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.

first bolded part says its a su effect.
second bolded part said as if the spell was a su effect.

if the spell was a pure su effect, both bolded parts are coexist.
if the spell was a spell with su traits, i think the first bolded part cannot coexist with this interpretation...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Relevant text:


After you cast this spell, the next
spell you cast within the duration that
requires concentration to maintain is
maintained for you until the sonorous
hum spell expires.


Once per day as a standard action, she can
use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard
action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must
be one that is currently available to the dweomer-
keeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she
knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level avail-
able to cast), but she can decide at the moment of cast-
ing to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally
would and is expended normally, but the dweomer-
keeper does not require any components, does not pro-
voke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target’s
spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural
ability instead of a spell.

Sonorous Hum is cast first, and affects the next spell you cast.

Supernatural Spell causes the casting of the chosen spell to function "just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell."

There's no components, no attacks of opportunity, no chance of counterspelling it, nothing that could affect the casting of a spell will work on that unless it can also affect supernatural abilities. Sonorous Hum can't affect supernatural abilities, so it will not work on a supernatural spell.

[Darg]

Supernatural Spell (Su): At 4th level, the dweomerkeeper is so attuned to the fabric of magic that she can manifest spell effects with almost no effort whatsoever. Once per day as a standard action, she can use any one spell with a casting time of up to 1 standard action as a supernatural ability. The spell chosen must be one that is currently available to the dweomerkeeper (that is, one that she has prepared or that she knows and has a spell slot of the appropriate level available to cast), but she can decide at the moment of casting to use this ability. The spell functions as it normally would and is expended normally, but the dweomerkeeper does not require any components, does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and ignores the target's spell resistance, just as if she were using a supernatural ability instead of a spell. At every even-numbered level after the 4th, the dweomerkeeper gains one additional use of this ability per day.

It tells you it functions just like a spell and then lists the exceptional changes. It's a supernatural spell, not a supernatural ability.