Live My Nightmare optimization

[Olo Demonsbane]

I was looking at the Spelltouched feats today, and I came across something really interesting on a feat that I had always ignored before:


Live My Nightmare [Spelltouched]
Those who magically pry into your mind become privy to your most frightening dreams.

Prerequisite
Exposure to phantasmal killer spell.

Benefit
Whenever someone successfully targets you with a divination spell or effect, you can send that caster a nightmarish vision. This vision functions as a phantasmal killer spell, except that the form comes from your dreams, not the other creature's dreams. The other creature must succeed on a Will save (DC 14 + your Cha modifier) to disbelieve the nightmare and a Fortitude save (DC 14 + your Cha modifier) to avoid dying from fear.

I had always skipped over this, because, in all honesty, how often are your enemies targetting you with divinations? Maybe a couple of times over the course of a campaign? On rereading, however, I realized that if you were to target yourself with a divination, you could then use Insane Defiance from Elder Evils to retarget the Phantasmal Killer as an immediate action with the cost of 1 Wisdom damage. What's more, the enemy gets a -4 on the saving throw, which actually makes this quite a bit more deadly.

Now when it comes to targetting yourself with a divination effect, there are a whole suite of them which are usable at-will from a very low level: a paladin's detect evil and an incarnate's detect opposition.


A sample build:

Lesser Aaismar Incarnate 2/Binder 1
Feats: Live My Nightmare (1st), Insane Defiance (3rd)
Vestiges Typically Bound: Naberius
Soulmelds Typically Shaped: Dissolving Spittle, Necrocarnum Circlet (bound to crown), and Astral Vambraces

I really enjoy the idea of the character constantly checking his alignment: "Well, still evil." Meanwhile, all of his foes are dropping dead from his hidden worst memories being unleashed.


Does anyone else have any interesting ideas for optimizing this? Some random notes:

Winter Unseelie Fey is as unfair with this as it is with most things.
Paladin of Tyranny also gets detect good, and the debuffing aura doesn't hurt.
You are going to be using your standard and immediate actions every turn, so having something useful you can do with a move action would be nice.
Insane Defiance lets you retarget anyone in the effect's range. Live My Nighmare doesn't really appear to have a maximum range. Does this let you just frighten your enemies to death from anywhere?
Phantasmal Killer is very easy to get immunity to in one fashion or another, so any build using this needs to have at least a few options for those kinds of foes.

[Venger]

That's a very amusing trick. While live my nightmare doesn't have a range limitation, insane defiance is limited to the range of the effect, so for detect you'd use that range. The saves are really low, and they get 2 and must fail both for it to actually do anything, so you'd have to make it up in volume, so I'd suggest speccing for stealth to follow enemies around and just zap them with it all day. Perhaps warlock for walk unseen with a binder dip to regenerate the con from insane defiance?

[RaiKirah]

It's possible that the Dread Witch's Greater Master of Terror ability would make your Phantasmal Killers bypass immunities, since Live My Nightmare specifies that it works as the Phantasmal Killer spell and doesn't specify if it's Sp, Su, etc.

[daremetoidareyo]

It's possible that the Dread Witch's Greater Master of Terror ability would make your Phantasmal Killers bypass immunities, since Live My Nightmare specifies that it works as the Phantasmal Killer spell and doesn't specify if it's Sp, Su, etc.
I think the spelltouched feats introductory paragraph may stipulate the action type

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hahaha that's awesome. And stupid. Also awesome.

First thought: Dread Witch 4 to overcome fear immunity. Makes phantasmal killer a lot more reliable. You can enter dread witch pretty early (wizard 1/[good will save 1] with Precocious Apprentice (scare) will do it), so Greater Master of Terror could be online as early as level 6.

Second thought: Affecting yourself with multiple divinations per round lets you force more saves. So ideally you'd cast a Twinned Repeating detect magic (say) every round, which means casting and a bit of metamagic reduction. If you reduce the cost on Repeat Spell to +1 and the cost on Twin Spell to +3 (Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic (Repeat)), you can fit a Repeat detect magic and a Twinned Repeat detect magic into a single arcane fusion. Kind of like a mailman, but with detect magic as main spell :smalltongue:.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hahaha that's awesome. And stupid. Also awesome.

First thought: Dread Witch 4 to overcome fear immunity. Makes phantasmal killer a lot more reliable. You can enter dread witch pretty early (wizard 1/[good will save 1] with Precocious Apprentice (scare) will do it), so Greater Master of Terror could be online as early as level 6.

Second thought: Affecting yourself with multiple divinations per round lets you force more saves. So ideally you'd cast a Twinned Repeating detect magic (say) every round, which means casting and a bit of metamagic reduction. If you reduce the cost on Repeat Spell to +1 and the cost on Twin Spell to +3 (Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic (Repeat)), you can fit a Repeat detect magic and a Twinned Repeat detect magic into a single arcane fusion. Kind of like a mailman, but with detect magic as main spell :smalltongue:.

Does a binder have a good will save? Cuz naberious might be the right play

[RaiKirah]

I think the spelltouched feats introductory paragraph may stipulate the action type

Just cracked open Unearthed Arcana to read the intro and I don't think it does specify. Guess whether or not Dread Witch applies defaults to DM decision.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Does a binder have a good will save? Cuz naberious might be the right play
Yep, it does, and I had it in a sample build before I cut that from the post. Here it is:

silverbrow human sorcerer 1/binder 1/dread witch 4/[casting 5]
Level 1 feats: Live My Nightmare, any metamagic feat, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell (flaws)
Further feats in order: Insane Defiance, Practical Metamagic (Repeat), Arcane Thesis (detect magic)

Basically, you get to cast a fusion consisting of a Repeat detect magic and Twinned Repeat detect magic. Six phantasmal killers out of a fifth-level slot--not bad.

Edit: Obviously, you need to have six immediate actions to make this work, so ehh... I'm stupid?

[Thurbane]

This is brilliant, love your work OP!

[Olo Demonsbane]

That's a very amusing trick. While live my nightmare doesn't have a range limitation, insane defiance is limited to the range of the effect, so for detect you'd use that range. The saves are really low, and they get 2 and must fail both for it to actually do anything, so you'd have to make it up in volume, so I'd suggest speccing for stealth to follow enemies around and just zap them with it all day. Perhaps warlock for walk unseen with a binder dip to regenerate the con from insane defiance?

Since Insane Defiance is redirecting the Phantasmal Killer, not the Detect spell, it seems like RAW it would use the Live My Nightmare range. In a real game no sane DM would allow it, but it does seem to theoretically work.

The saves can actually be pretty decent at low levels. If you have 18 Cha, it’s two DC 18 saves, each at a -4 penalty. If you add in Unseelie Fey, it’s two DC 19 saves, and they take a -9 penalty in total.

Depending on if Insane Defiance breaks invisibility (which I think it probably would), walk unseen could be really useful. Unfortunately, invocations don’t have schools, so you can’t trigger the effect with see the unseen.


Hahaha that's awesome. And stupid. Also awesome.

First thought: Dread Witch 4 to overcome fear immunity. Makes phantasmal killer a lot more reliable. You can enter dread witch pretty early (wizard 1/[good will save 1] with Precocious Apprentice (scare) will do it), so Greater Master of Terror could be online as early as level 6.

Second thought: Affecting yourself with multiple divinations per round lets you force more saves. So ideally you'd cast a Twinned Repeating detect magic (say) every round, which means casting and a bit of metamagic reduction. If you reduce the cost on Repeat Spell to +1 and the cost on Twin Spell to +3 (Arcane Thesis and Practical Metamagic (Repeat)), you can fit a Repeat detect magic and a Twinned Repeat detect magic into a single arcane fusion. Kind of like a mailman, but with detect magic as main spell :smalltongue:.

Dread Witch is excellent, particularly as you already need to pump your Will save for Insane Defiance. Wizard 1/Binder 1/Dread Witch 4 fits nicely into E6 as well. Unfortunately, the limiting factor on this is your immediate action for Insane Defiance, rather than the number of divinations you can apply to yourself. Edit: Which I see you already noticed, yes.

[Tytalus]

Hats off to you, Olo! Fun trick 😁

[Vaern]

Interesting. The feat works when you are successfully targeted with a divination spell or effect. Presumably, it doesn't need to actually affect you or even be properly cast, so long as it is pointed in your direction.

Magic items can produce divination effects that target you, not just spells. A phylactery of faithfulness is cheap and built on divination magic. All you need to do is think about whether projecting a phantasmal killer onto someone would be an evil act and- whoops, they're dead.

Creatures with a passive detect thoughts ability will trigger the effect. Play a doppelganger and use your detect thoughts ability to detect your own thoughts to proc it... Wait, would that create some sort of horrible psychic feedback like putting a microphone in front of a speaker?

Does the effect that lets you retarget the phantasmal killer still work if you make yourself immune to the wisdom damage?

[rrwoods]

Arguably the "effect's range" for Live My Nightmare is the exact location (or, if you're more generous, the distance away from you) of the creature that targeted you with the divination effect in the first place. That's your square (or zero feet from your square). (Arguably.)

Separately from that, a prerequisite for Live My Nightmare is having been exposed to a phantasmal killer spell in the past. So, you'll need to pay someone to cast it at you, and either (1) be guaranteed to make the Will save, or (2) be guaranteed to make the Fort save and survive 18 damage. 5% to die while executing this is (to me) not really acceptable. I think (1) is easier, probably, via moment of perfect mind and a (perhaps temporarily) sky-high Concentration modifier (the save-replace maneuvers explicitly call out that, since the roll is replaced with a skill check, a 1 doesn't automatically fail it).

EDIT: If it's cast from a scroll, the DC is 16 (I think) -- 10 + 2 (from 14 spellcasting ability) + 4 (spell level), yeah? So you actually only need concentration +15. +5 ability, +6 ranks, +2 mwk tool; there's only +2 left. Skill Focus is certainly an option but I'm sure there's others (heck you could even use guidance for +1, and there's only +1 left at that point).

[daremetoidareyo]

Arguably the "effect's range" for Live My Nightmare is the exact location (or, if you're more generous, the distance away from you) of the creature that targeted you with the divination effect in the first place. That's your square (or zero feet from your square). (Arguably.)

Separately from that, a prerequisite for Live My Nightmare is having been exposed to a phantasmal killer spell in the past. So, you'll need to pay someone to cast it at you, and either (1) be guaranteed to make the Will save, or (2) be guaranteed to make the Fort save and survive 18 damage. 5% to die while executing this is (to me) not really acceptable. I think (1) is easier, probably, via moment of perfect mind and a (perhaps temporarily) sky-high Concentration modifier (the save-replace maneuvers explicitly call out that, since the roll is replaced with a skill check, a 1 doesn't automatically fail it).

EDIT: If it's cast from a scroll, the DC is 16 (I think) -- 10 + 2 (from 14 spellcasting ability) + 4 (spell level), yeah? So you actually only need concentration +15. +5 ability, +6 ranks, +2 mwk tool; there's only +2 left. Skill Focus is certainly an option but I'm sure there's others (heck you could even use guidance for +1, and there's only +1 left at that point).

Pffft. You survived it in your backstory. Done!

[Doctor Despair]

Pffft. You survived it in your backstory. Done!

Or have a paladin use Lionheart on you beforehand. You have to be exposed, but no one said you have to be affected by it!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Rather than dipping Binder, it seems it would be easier and more elegant to just shape the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. Even if you're not already going incarnum, it can be picked up with just a feat.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Interesting. The feat works when you are successfully targeted with a divination spell or effect. Presumably, it doesn't need to actually affect you or even be properly cast, so long as it is pointed in your direction.

Magic items can produce divination effects that target you, not just spells. A phylactery of faithfulness is cheap and built on divination magic. All you need to do is think about whether projecting a phantasmal killer onto someone would be an evil act and- whoops, they're dead.

Haha, I knew there was a good combo I was missing. A 1,000gp item that lets you target yourself with divination effects at will without taking an action (assuming taking "a moment to contemplate the act" doesn't take one, which I would assume) takes this trick from something that would have to be a character's main method of attack to something usable whenever they have a free immediate action. Well done, sir!


Does the effect that lets you retarget the phantasmal killer still work if you make yourself immune to the wisdom damage?

I don't think so. The relevant text is "...you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget the effect...", which makes me think that if you are immune, you can't choose to take the damage. It could probably be argued either way though.




Arguably the "effect's range" for Live My Nightmare is the exact location (or, if you're more generous, the distance away from you) of the creature that targeted you with the divination effect in the first place. That's your square (or zero feet from your square). (Arguably.)

I think range for an effect denotes the maximum range it can effect someone at. Otherwise, if you cast Fireball centered on yourself, it would also be a 0 range spell.


Separately from that, a prerequisite for Live My Nightmare is having been exposed to a phantasmal killer spell in the past. So, you'll need to pay someone to cast it at you, and either (1) be guaranteed to make the Will save, or (2) be guaranteed to make the Fort save and survive 18 damage. 5% to die while executing this is (to me) not really acceptable. I think (1) is easier, probably, via moment of perfect mind and a (perhaps temporarily) sky-high Concentration modifier (the save-replace maneuvers explicitly call out that, since the roll is replaced with a skill check, a 1 doesn't automatically fail it).

EDIT: If it's cast from a scroll, the DC is 16 (I think) -- 10 + 2 (from 14 spellcasting ability) + 4 (spell level), yeah? So you actually only need concentration +15. +5 ability, +6 ranks, +2 mwk tool; there's only +2 left. Skill Focus is certainly an option but I'm sure there's others (heck you could even use guidance for +1, and there's only +1 left at that point).

If you can't have this occur during your backstory, like daremetoidareyo suggested, then gaining immunity to fear would also be an easy way to guarantee your survival. Offhand, Heroes Feast or getting a level in Cleric with the Dream domain would do it for you, and I'm sure there's an even easier way that I'm forgetting.


Rather than dipping Binder, it seems it would be easier and more elegant to just shape the Strongheart Vest soulmeld. Even if you're not already going incarnum, it can be picked up with just a feat.

You do need a dip in order to get Insane Defiance by level 3 (it has a +5 Will save requirement). Aside from that, this is probably a DM adjucation situation, given that the feat says "...you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget the effect...". Does that mean that if you don't take the damage, it doesn't function? Binder seemed a bit cleaner, to me at least, with that in mind.



At a higher level, when the PCs can't fail the saves against the Phantasmal Killer except on 1s, you could really do a murder mystery using one of these guys as a villian. There should be no way, without divinations at least, to determine who is hitting them with the phantasmal killer effect, and if the party has a couple of Revivify's packed, and they only roll snake-eyes every 400 rounds, they could do the whole investigation while the murderer spends the entire time trying to kill them. Maybe have the form of the Phantasmal Killer be a clue that they need to solve the mystery?

[ExLibrisMortis]

At a higher level, when the PCs can't fail the saves against the Phantasmal Killer except on 1s, you could really do a murder mystery using one of these guys as a villian. There should be no way, without divinations at least, to determine who is hitting them with the phantasmal killer effect, and if the party has a couple of Revivify's packed, and they only roll snake-eyes every 400 rounds, they could do the whole investigation while the murderer spends the entire time trying to kill them. Maybe have the form of the Phantasmal Killer be a clue that they need to solve the mystery?
That's a cool idea. 400 rounds is 40 minutes, so you could plan your adventure in 40-minute "rounds" and randomly kill one person every round :smalltongue:.

[Aegis013]

This is brilliant. It's amazing that people are still coming up with such incredibly creative wombo comboes for this game and it's big part of the reason I still enjoy it.


Arguably the "effect's range" for Live My Nightmare is the exact location (or, if you're more generous, the distance away from you) of the creature that targeted you with the divination effect in the first place. That's your square (or zero feet from your square). (Arguably.)

If you were a DM deciding that this is going to be the ruling, that it can only target the square you're in as it affects you specifically and is redirected, would it be possible to overcome this potential issue with a character small enough that you enter the enemy's square and then defensively cast Detect Magic, hitting square 0, which contains both you and the target of your bunch of Phantasmal Killers?

[rrwoods]

This is brilliant. It's amazing that people are still coming up with such incredibly creative wombo comboes for this game and it's big part of the reason I still enjoy it.



If you were a DM deciding that this is going to be the ruling, that it can only target the square you're in as it affects you specifically and is redirected, would it be possible to overcome this potential issue with a character small enough that you enter the enemy's square and then defensively cast Detect Magic, hitting square 0, which contains both you and the target of your bunch of Phantasmal Killers?
I think the RAW here is unclear, and the RA-Intended is unspecified (because likely the designers never thought about this situation and never formed an opinion on it).

I think the way I’d rule it personally is that the “range” is the distance from you to the caster of the divination. If that’s yourself, then yes, you’d need to be in the same square as your intended target (and that would be sufficient as well, no other conditions needed). However, if you have a willing ally (or maybe a familiar? Unsure) cast the divination, then as long as that ally is at least as far away from you as your intended target, you’re good.

Again this is only my personal ruling. I could see and accept arguments for a number of rulings here, ranging all the way from “this trick doesn’t work at all” to “you can target anyone on the same plane”.

[GrayDeath]

Wow, absolutely cool find and concept.

Reminded me I need Help in a fear based build anyway, almost forgot I had promiosed a friend one.

Ooops?^^

[Aegis013]

I think the RAW here is unclear, and the RA-Intended is unspecified (because likely the designers never thought about this situation and never formed an opinion on it).

I think the way I’d rule it personally is that the “range” is the distance from you to the caster of the divination. If that’s yourself, then yes, you’d need to be in the same square as your intended target (and that would be sufficient as well, no other conditions needed). However, if you have a willing ally (or maybe a familiar? Unsure) cast the divination, then as long as that ally is at least as far away from you as your intended target, you’re good.

Again this is only my personal ruling. I could see and accept arguments for a number of rulings here, ranging all the way from “this trick doesn’t work at all” to “you can target anyone on the same plane”.

I certainly understand there's arguments to be made for other interpretations and having the familiar be point of origin is an interesting idea I hadn't thought of. If you took Improved Familiar and got yourself an Imp, it could fly 60ft above you at all times and use its at-will Detect Magic spell like ability to activate your Phantasmal Killer in a 60ft area without you dedicating actions to it without much worry of having it nixed over range concerns of casting on yourself.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.