Shapechange and Wild Shape

[sithlordnergal]

So, I was looking over the 9th level spell Shapechange and Wild Shape and I realized something a bit odd. I was wondering if these two effects stack the way I suspect that they do, because if so then it could be a bit game breaking...as if the Moon Druid wasn't game breaking enough at level 20 and needed more help. =/ Here are the two bits in question:


Your game Statistics are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your Alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores You also retain all of your skill and saving throw Proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature...You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so.


Transforming doesn't break your Concentration on a spell you've already cast, however, or prevent you from taking Actions that are part of a spell, such as Call Lightning, that you've already cast.

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your Special Senses, such as Darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.


So, if I'm reading that RAW correctly, I could case Shapechange, then I could use Wild Shape, and still retain the benefits of Shapechange. Now at first this doesn't seem so bad, since you can only use abilities of your given form. However, and correct me if I'm wrong here, if you Shapechange into something with Magical Resistance, which grants Advantage on all spell saves, then your Wild Shape form should retain that because you're still concentrating on Shapechange. Wild Shape specifically states "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source", and Shapechange is a different source. Am I correct in reading it that way?

Because Shapechang does change all of your statistics to match the creature you turned into, and Wild Shape lets you retain benefits from things like spells and such. And things lime Magical Resistance and Limited Magic Immunity are not in the regular Immunities, they are specifically passive abilities.

[PhantomSoul]

It's worth talking to your DM before planning any shenanigans with this one; Wild Shape also says "can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so". If those traits you want to use are biological or species-specific, it's quite reasonable that the DM would say they don't carry over (and they shouldn't, from the phrasing).

[Mutazoia]

I would say that the two don't stack. Not for the potential cheese factor, but because you only get the benefits of the shape change while in that form. Once you wildshape, you are not in that form anymore.

Shapechange also sates that you get the skill and saving throw proficiencies of the new form, but doesn't say that you get any magical abilities. It DOES say you do not get lair or legendary actions, so I would assume that to mean you don't get spell-like abilities (or resistances), as you are not actually that creature...you just took on the physical attributes of one (just not the magical ones).

Basically, Shapechange is not Polymorph...it is just another form of Wildshape that uses up a spell slot.

[Satori01]

Shapechange already states:
During this spell’s duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit points than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value.

Why be a brown bear, when you can be a Balor?

[ThorOdinson]

Archdruid + Elemental Wildshape + Shapechange is very potent

[sithlordnergal]

Shapechange already states:
During this spell’s duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit points than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value.

Why be a brown bear, when you can be a Balor?

Because, why be a Balor when you can be an Elemental that's immune to 5th level and lower spells thanks to Shapechanging into a Rakshasa first?

[Unoriginal]

So, I was looking over the 9th level spell Shapechange and Wild Shape and I realized something a bit odd. I was wondering if these two effects stack the way I suspect that they do, because if so then it could be a bit game breaking...as if the Moon Druid wasn't game breaking enough at level 20 and needed more help. =/ Here are the two bits in question:






So, if I'm reading that RAW correctly, I could case Shapechange, then I could use Wild Shape, and still retain the benefits of Shapechange. Now at first this doesn't seem so bad, since you can only use abilities of your given form. However, and correct me if I'm wrong here, if you Shapechange into something with Magical Resistance, which grants Advantage on all spell saves, then your Wild Shape form should retain that because you're still concentrating on Shapechange. Wild Shape specifically states "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source", and Shapechange is a different source. Am I correct in reading it that way?

Because Shapechang does change all of your statistics to match the creature you turned into, and Wild Shape lets you retain benefits from things like spells and such. And things lime Magical Resistance and Limited Magic Immunity are not in the regular Immunities, they are specifically passive abilities.

"Retaining the benefits of any feature" does not mean "can USE any active ability you have in your previous form". A Rakshasa can't Wildshape, even if they are a Druid Shapechanged into a Rakshasa.

[sithlordnergal]

I would say that the two don't stack. Not for the potential cheese factor, but because you only get the benefits of the shape change while in that form. Once you wildshape, you are not in that form anymore.

Shapechange also sates that you get the skill and saving throw proficiencies of the new form, but doesn't say that you get any magical abilities. It DOES say you do not get lair or legendary actions, so I would assume that to mean you don't get spell-like abilities (or resistances), as you are not actually that creature...you just took on the physical attributes of one (just not the magical ones).

Basically, Shapechange is not Polymorph...it is just another form of Wildshape that uses up a spell slot.

No, Shapechange states you gain the statistics of a creature while specifically excluding Spell Casting, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions. Something like Limited Spell Immunity, Legendary Resistance, Magic Weapons, Magic Resistance, or Fire Aura are all separate from Spell Casting, Legendary Actions, and Lair Actions. Therefore you'd get them when you Shapechange, since they're part of the creature's statistics while not being part of the three things that are excluded. No different then gaining a Dragon's Fire Breath really.

As for them stacking...that part I could really see going either way. Wild Shape specifically states you keep the benefits of your class, race, or other sources, while Shapechange lets you keep the same benefits. Technically, if you cast Shapechange then Wild Shape, the statistics of whatever you turned into are benefits from other sources. And since Wild Shape doesn't end spells, Shapechange is still going. Meaning if you got knocked out of wild shape, you'd be back to whatever creature Shapechange turned you into. Both are very specific about how they don't cancel out.

Its really no different then something like Dwarven Resilience, which gives you Resistance against poison damage and advantage on saves against poison. You keep that while Wild Shaped, so you should be able to keep the statistics of the creature you turned into too...

[sithlordnergal]

"Retaining the benefits of any feature" does not mean "can USE any active ability you have in your previous form". A Rakshasa can't Wildshape, even if they are a Druid Shapechanged into a Rakshasa.

I don't know if that's true though...Any creature can use the abilities of a class provided they have levels. You don't lose your class levels when you Shapechange, and you keep all of your class abilities. Otherwise why would they bother adding in that you retain all of your class features?

[Unoriginal]

If you cast Shapechange to become a Rakshasa you do get the Limited Spell Immunity, but you can't Wild Shape anymore.

It doesn't say "retain all your class features", it says "retain all the benefits from your class features". Still benefiting from freatures isn't the same as being able to use your previous shape's active powers. A Duergar Druid can't Wild Shapeb into a Cave Bear then use their Duergar magic to Enlarge, for example.

[sithlordnergal]

Oh, good catch, I was misreading that...Ok, that brings Shapechange down to a more manageable level.

[Fable Wright]

Because, why be a Balor when you can be an Elemental that's immune to 5th level and lower spells thanks to Shapechanging into a Rakshasa first?

Damage from being an Earth Elemental immune to 5th level and lower spells:

+8 to hit, 2d8+5 damage
+8 to hit, 2d8+5 damage

Damage from being a Balor:

+14 to hit w/10ft reach, 6d8+8 and triple crit dice
+14 to hit w/30ft reach, 5d6+8 damage and optional pull

Plus Truesight, Telepathy, flame aura, magic resistance, and teleportation.

Why would you be an Earth Elemental. Most monsters won't use spells on you anyways.


If you cast Shapechange to become a Rakshasa you do get the Limited Spell Immunity, but you can't Wild Shape anymore.

It doesn't say "retain all your class features", it says "retain all the benefits from your class features". Still benefiting from freatures isn't the same as being able to use your previous shape's active powers. A Duergar Druid can't Wild Shapeb into a Cave Bear then use their Duergar magic to Enlarge, for example.

That's a facetious argument. Dragonborn can breathe fire from their racial trait, while the only reason a Duergar can't use their Duergar Magic is because of the clause that prevents spellcasting in Wildshape.

The benefit of class features is to provide options. Saying that they're different leads to arbitrary impositions of included/excluded that make no sense and are a nightmare to maintain.

[JackPhoenix]

That's a facetious argument. Dragonborn can breathe fire from their racial trait

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Bears (usually, this is D&D we're talking about) aren't physically capable of breathing fire.

[Fable Wright]

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Bears (usually, this is D&D we're talking about) aren't physically capable of breathing fire.

Dragon's Breath, the spell, begs to disagree. Anything with lungs is physically capable of breathing fire.

[JackPhoenix]

Dragon's Breath, the spell, begs to disagree. Anything with lungs is physically capable of breathing fire.

Dragon's Breath is a spell. It has its own rules, and does not require lungs, only mouth, which means even skeletons can use it. Dragonborn's breath weapon is part of their biology.
Fly is also a spell, but that doesn't mean aarakokra druid transformed into a bear can fly by waving its paws in the air.

[Fable Wright]

Dragon's Breath is a spell. It has its own rules, and does not require lungs, only mouth, which means even skeletons can use it. Dragonborn's breath weapon is part of their biology.

[citation needed]

I will agree that an Aarakocra druid can't use their native wings to fly.

However, a Gnome Druid maintains their magic resistance as a bear. Wood elves can still hide in mist or foliage. Halflings still have their supernatural luck. No other race has these features; they're clearly inherited, but they are magical in nature.

I would say that the ability to magically create a cone of cold would have to be magical in nature. There's examples in nature of animals shooting hot liquid or creating acid or poison, but there are no examples of a creature being able to generate an weaponizeable amount of frost in their bodies, much less repeatably. Likewise electricity. Those abilities are unquestionably supernatural.

Why can Halflings, Gnomes, Wood Elves, or Aasimar use their racial supernatural powers, but the dragonborn can't? Can you give a citation that the ability to generate a potentially-instantly-fatal blast of cold is based on a biological process?

[JackPhoenix]

Why can Halflings, Gnomes, Wood Elves, or Aasimar use their racial supernatural powers, but the dragonborn can't? Can you give a citation that the ability to generate a potentially-instantly-fatal blast of cold is based on a biological process?

Sure. It's based on the same kind of biological processes that allows human-sized and shaped creature (or a dragon) to fly under its own power. The same which allows giants (or dragons) to exist without collapsing under their own weight. And the same that allows oversized predators (like dragons) to maintain active lifestyle with comparatively little food consumption without starving to death.

[Fable Wright]

Sure. It's based on the same kind of biological processes that allows human-sized and shaped creature (or a dragon) to fly under its own power.

The same biological processes that sustained the Quetzalcoatlus and Haast's Eagle, both human+ size and able to fly under their own power? These are magic? OK.


The same which allows giants (or dragons) to exist without collapsing under their own weight.

So the same biological processes that sustained the Tyrannosaurus Rex and the other enormous terrestrial dinosaurs are also magic?


And the same that allows oversized predators (like dragons) to maintain active lifestyle with comparatively little food consumption without starving to death.

Ah, the same magic that allowed Spinosaurus to maintain an active lifestyle without starving to death, despite being a 50ft long colossus.

[JackPhoenix]

The same biological processes that sustained the Quetzalcoatlus and Haast's Eagle, both human+ size and able to fly under their own power? These are magic? OK.

Neither is human-shaped. And Quetzalcoatlus had a wingspan of about 11 meters to be able to fly. Haast's Eagle had a wingspam of of about 2.5 to 3 meters with an estimated weight of 10-15 kg. Now look how big aarakokra's wings are and how much do they weight.


So the same biological processes that sustained the Tyrannosaurus Rex and the other enormous terrestrial dinosaurs are also magic?

Look at how Tyrannosaurus is built, and how giants are built. You can't just scale up a human to 4 times the size and think it would work out without getting really creative with biology.


Ah, the same magic that allowed Spinosaurus to maintain an active lifestyle without starving to death, despite being a 50ft long colossus.

Consider nobody has ever seen a Spinosaurus, nobody knows how active lifestyle it led, and there's a good evidence it was aquatic, which allows to save a lot energy. Especially compared to winged flight on something as inefficiently built as a dragon.

[Fable Wright]

Neither is human-shaped. And Quetzalcoatlus had a wingspan of about 11 meters to be able to fly. Haast's Eagle had a wingspam of of about 2.5 to 3 meters with an estimated weight of 10-15 kg. Now look how big aarakokra's wings are and how much do they weight.

The upper bound of mass supported/wingspan is 25kg/m^3. Aarakocra have an upper bound of 45 kg, and judging by the images, it's not unreasonable to say that their wings might have an area of 3 square meters. The math here is not unreasonable.



Look at how Tyrannosaurus is built, and how giants are built. You can't just scale up a human to 4 times the size and think it would work out without getting really creative with biology.

Stone Giants are about 18ft tall at this point, while Gigantopithecus, the largest known primate, was only 10ft tall. This is true. The biggest issues would be the circulatory system, skeletal system, and calorie requirement. Given that elephants and other creatures exist and manage said calorie and circulatory requirements, the main issue remaining is the skeletal system—gigantism to get to a triple-size human would require a stronger skeletal system than we have discovered so far in nature.

However, that's not to say that a stronger material doesn't exist. Polyhexahydrotriazine 1.6 is an example of an existing organic material that could theoretically be biologically created, and would support the unusual kinds of gigantism that are seen in the D&D universe. Or it might be that instead of Hydroxyapatite making up the bone mineral portion of giants, its a mithril or adamantine-based mineral that has much stronger organic properties.

Neither of these would naturally occur on our planet, but it's something which a god with literally divine knowledge of physiology and materials science would in theory be able to create, and it would be able to self-propagate once made.

I have yet to hear how an organism would synthesize, safely store within their body, and exhale what amounts to aerosolized liquid nitrogen, much less put together a biological process that would do it within an hour (per the short rest recharge).



Consider nobody has ever seen a Spinosaurus, nobody knows how active lifestyle it led, and there's a good evidence it was aquatic, which allows to save a lot energy. Especially compared to winged flight on something as inefficiently built as a dragon.

No one's ever seen a dragon, either, and rumor has it that Smaug spent most of his time napping, and very little of it burninating the countryside.