The LA-assignment thread IX: I have no mouth and I must S,V,M

[Inevitability]

Thread nine, you know the drill. RAW LAs bad, new LAs slightly less bad, we did it gitp!

We still have an archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive&p=21798987).

Vine horror up soon!

[Inevitability]

Vine Horror

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6a070ecd561e38c0a48e791ca2ba89a5/tumblr_inline_p84kd4IlQ41r0zz7o_400.jpg

Fine Horror, or Vine Horrible? (i'll stop recycling jokes when wotc stops recycling monster concepts)

The horror is a pretty standard medium-sized plant monster. It's got 5 RHD, good strength but average other stats (no nonabilities, though!), two 1d6 slam attacks, and a swim speed.

Its special abilities aren't bad: half damage from all piercing and slashing weapons is quite good (because, as we know, nothing deals with vines like a hammer). The ability to fit through inch-sized spaces is occasionally relevant. Additionally, the horror can turn a nearby plant in an Assassin Vine, which is still reasonably relevant around ECL 5.

Plant is not the greatest typing, but those things are impressively tough and can do okay area control with their pet vine. +0 LA, barely.

[Thurbane]

We're getting close to the end of FF. Have we decided on next book? My (biased) vote is my MM6 compilation, or failing that, something short like Miniatures Handbook.

Vine Horror


Medium Plant (Aquatic) - does this mean it can't breathe air?
5 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, 1 good save, 2 skill points/"level")
30 ft speed, swim 20 ft.
+8 natural AC
2 slams 1d6. the art indicates it has claws/fingers, of a sort. I don't think it would be too outrageous to let it wield weapons.
Animate vines: at will SLA to create an assassin vine from nearby plant life. Decent.
Half damage from piercing and slashing: nice.
Malleability: can come in handy, but situational.
Plant Traits: lots of nice immunities.
Low-light vision.
Str +8, Con +8, Int -2, Wis +2: net +16.
Very small racial skill list, but at least there are three decent skills.

Vaguely humanoid in form, can speak, and a kind DM might let it wield items. If not, there is always the Opposable weapon quality.

I'll admit, it's not great, but at will minionmancy (limited to one at a time, but still), a bunch of resistances and immunities, good natural AC, and solid physical score mods are decent. Obviously if it can't breathe air, going to be more suited for an aquatic campaign, I guess.

I'll vote LA +0 for now, but only barely.

[unseenmage]

We're getting close to the end of FF. Have we decided on next book? My (biased) vote is my MM6 compilation, or failing that, something short like Miniatures Handbook.

...
MM6 would be amazing. I just wanna see That Damn Crab get it's due.

And Spellsong Nightingale. And Blood Elemental. And the Construct ghost thing. And the time travel Golem. And probably others I'm forgetting.

Oh and LA -0 for totally-not-Swamp-Thing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I quite like this guy. Really playable for a plant. Stats are ogre-like, though without Large size and with better mental stats. Assassin vines at-will sounds a lot cooler than it is because you can't use them for base defense (which is the cool thematic sort of use I'd want the ability for). Half damage from piercing and slashing is a little odd, but quite powerful (goes wonderfully with starmantle, too).

That said, do I want to play this with a single class level at ECL 6? Eh... not compared to a crusader or something, but compared to a fighter, maybe? That drops the tier too low, though, so I'm going to go with -0. Not by much, though.

[Morphic tide]

5 RHD for +4 melee attack and damage rolls, Fortitude saves, HP/HD, and +8 AC, halved damage from two of the three physical damage types and pile of immunities? This is going to do better than the last five levels of more blunt Initiator or Totemist builds, and doesn't have much excuse for the "Unusual Body Shape" armor price hike so that Natural Armor is just flat upside. Loses 2.5 BAB, so you can lose .5 more BAB before dipping below a net +1 attack and will be 2-3 levels behind for iteratives.

Put me in for LA +1, because that survivability is insane and the offenses aren't dropping off that much. Enemies eat a -40% chance to hit with non-Touch attacks and Fortitude saves, and what does hit is more likely than not halved in the damage it deals, and you get what's frequently quickly north of +40% base HP to survive what damage does get through. In short, you get to basically flat-out ignore investing in anything but Big Six items in handling physical assaults, and likely skimp on that, because even the Bludgeoning attacks will almost always still have more than twice the effort to kill you. And that is a lot more stuff you can throw at damage. Especially given that you get Mind Affecting immunity built-in, so you'll almost always get to ignore your Will save...

Basically, once you get your frontloaded class of choice online, you're going to be ahead just from being able to ignore the great share of defensive investment, to the point you can probably afford to be getting Energy Resistance! Damage sucks at 1-3 class levels, except maybe some specific Totemist setups, but once you've got your 3rd-level Maneuvers or Chakra Binds started... Well. You get to just kinda ignore the bulk of defensive investment and throw that into making up for your mild damage deficit (unless we're treating Power Attack Shock Trooper Pounce as standard, I guess). Unless you're a Totemist, in which case you're probably getting ahead on that, too!

[Debatra]

Been a while since we've had a creature that couldn't breathe air that also wasn't automatically a -0 for other reasons as well. (I think?) How do we usually rate aquatic creatures? Is there some easy way to get air breathing that I forgot about?

[Efrate]

I am okay with a +0 here provided it breathes air. Still gets 9th maneuvers.

[Thurbane]

I believe when looking into a previous entry from FF, I found that Aquatic didn't work quite the same way it does in 3.5, so it may be an edition dysfunction.


It's a shame the Amphibious Creature template in Stormwrack can only be applied to Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids. It'll help with Selkies, at least.

After some further reading, I honestly think this is an edition issue, more than anything else. Looking at the 3.0 Monster Manual, 3.0 DMG and the 3.0 SRD, and there is no mention of the Aquatic subtype making you unable to breathe air, that I can find.


The only creatures that get Amphibious in FF are the Bloodbloater, Flotsam Ooze and Reekmurk.

Doesn't seem like Amphibious was really a thing back in 3.0. In the MM2, only once creature (Ocean Giant) gets called out as being Amphibious.

For instance, 3.5 Merfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/merfolk.htm) are called out as being Amphibious, whereas 3.0 Merfolk (http://www.dragon.ee/30srd/) don't seem to be.

Is it possibly an edition issue, rather than oversight from the devs?

[Sutr]

Agree with Morphic Tide +1.

Also Weapons of Legacy specifically has a template that says we can't rate it...

Level Adjustment: Legacy monsters are never appropriate as player characters or cohorts. The base creature
loses any level adjustment it previously had.

I think we could otherwise agree with Thurbane, but I really think we should look at monster of legacy first.

[liquidformat]

I like the idea of rating the Unique NPC Abilities presented in DMGII, there are 20 and they are all pretty interesting.

Vine Horror is immune to mind affecting effects, has a decent group of immunities including crits, half damage from p/s, and decent NA, is humanoid in shape and quite possibly has hands, has decent ability bonuses and a little minionmancy. I think it is +0 for aquatic but without air breathing -0 in most games.

On a side note all three Varrangoin become large at 11 rhd, if rhd also increase caster level then arcanist is worth while gaining a couple more rhd, I am not sure if they do can anyone confirm? That would also make it a better gish and it seems like a decent choice for rager to grab 3 extra rhd and become large.

[Remuko]

-0. Not very interesting. Close to be maybe okay though.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I guess the Rapidstrike line is a thing...?

[Venger]

We're getting close to the end of FF. Have we decided on next book? My (biased) vote is my MM6 compilation, or failing that, something short like Miniatures Handbook.

There's a monster manual 6?

[Dalmosh]

I'd be keen for either Fiendish Codex 1 or Libris Mortis.

[Thurbane]

There's a monster manual 6?

That's my colloquialism for the list I compiled of online monsters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?567712).

[Blue Jay]

I'm going to go ahead and vote for LA +0 for the vine horror. I think it passes muster with relatively few assumptions about the DM's rulings.

But, I read the "Animate Vines" ability as animating one vine at each use, but still being opening to minion-spam abuse. I don't think there's anything stopping the creature from using "animate vines" X times to get X assassin vine minions that follow the vine horror around wherever it wants. So, if you're willing to move slowly, you could hypothetically build up a giant army of assassin vines. And an assassin vine is a step up from the kinds of monsters you can get with summon spells at this point in the game, so I think the horror is competitive, if one-dimensional.

[Thurbane]

The wording of the ability is a bit ambiguous, but does say "A vine horror can use this ability to animate any single vine or similar kind of plant life within 90 feet."

Since it is an at-will SLA, I think the safe assumption would be you can only have one animated vine at a time, but I admit its open to interpretation.

[Mike Miller]

MM6 would be fun, as the monsters are less frequently seen.

[Debatra]

Gonna put in my also-selfish not-really-vote for Libris Mortis, purely because I want to see what people think of the Bleakborn.

For a more serious vote... I got nothing. Do what you will.

[Inevitability]

Swamp Thing votes (going with the assumption that this is clearly intended to breathe air):

-0: 3 votes
+0: 4 votes
+1: 2 votes

LA will be updated, next monster up soon, stay tuned vorr it!

[Inevitability]

Vorr

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/0/03/Vorr.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200306093501

I believe one of the fiendish werebeasts earlier in the book made mention of those. It ended up getting +1 LA: will the same happen here?

After dozens of monsters that seem like they should be outsiders but aren't, the vorr manages to be an outsider instead of, say, a magical beast. It has decent physical stats, moderate mental stats, and a reasonable bite/claw/claw routine augmented by 2d6 sneak attack (which is very nice as this only has 3 RHD). The vorr's bite additionally Trips the foe.

On top of this, Vorr get Scent, the ability to Shadow Jump sixty feet per day, and the ability to turn into an unsubstantial, near-undetectable Shadow Form for ten minutes per day.

Between the good stats, useful special abilities, and being ahead on sneak attack compared to your typical rogue, I don't think +0 will work here. +1 it is: just have someone else open doors for you.

[liquidformat]

Vorr

medium 3 RHD outisder - arguably best RHD in the game and puts Vorr off to a good start
+3 NA - Slightly low but decent
Str +6, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Cha +4: net +16. - decent
Bite 2d4, 2xclaw 1d3 - Not amazing but decent for medium especially that bite
Sneak attack +2d6, trip - sneak attack is as good as similarly leveled rogue, trip is also a nice combat mod
shadow form- once per day for up to ten minutes, can move at full speed on any surface, walls, ceilings, and though not expressly stated should be able to walk on water. its ok it would be good if it was able to be broken up into multiple uses as is, not very good.
shadow jump - useable 1-6 times per day each jump must be at least 10'
Scent - decent
Skills - decent list of skills for any rogue type build plus with 8+int skill points there are enough to actually be decent.

Shadow Jump seems pretty equivalent to being able to use Shadow Jaunt 1-6/day all good saves, d8 hd, full bab, and 8+int skill points add in scent, trip on bite, and sneak attack I think you have as much as would be expected for class levels add in net +16 ability score +3 NA with the only detractors being no hands and -4 int. All and all I think any similarly leveled swordsage would fall short compared to a Vorr, so I will go with +1 LA.

[Efrate]

I can see this as a +1. I cannot condone a +0 because though the int hit sucks it is in every other way superior to a rogue/swordsage of 3 HD. That's a ton of extra stuff. You have 3 attacks already so you are ahead of a standard TWF sneak attacker in DPS not to mention with full bab and dex/str bonus your to hit is going to be a fair but ahead. You also have better HP because of con. Your first class level is awful because monster HD round down for initiating (assuming swordsage), but you still get 9ths.

If you want rogue even at +1 your sneak attack is still on par, with more attacks, and you trade some skills for much better combat prowess.

+1 totally justified here.

[liquidformat]

I can see this as a +1. I cannot condone a +0 because though the int hit sucks it is in every other way superior to a rogue/swordsage of 3 HD. That's a ton of extra stuff. You have 3 attacks already so you are ahead of a standard TWF sneak attacker in DPS not to mention with full bab and dex/str bonus your to hit is going to be a fair but ahead. You also have better HP because of con. Your first class level is awful because monster HD round down for initiating (assuming swordsage), but you still get 9ths.

If you want rogue even at +1 your sneak attack is still on par, with more attacks, and you trade some skills for much better combat prowess.

+1 totally justified here.

I would say your best choice would be barbarian 2, picking up City Brawler and Lion Spirit totem ACFs at level one to grab Improved Unarmed Strike and pounce then improved trip at level 2 before hopping into whatever else.

[Remuko]

I'm going +0 atm. Its a good +0 but i dont think any of its abilities are too good.

[Morphic tide]

This one's awkward because it's absolutely absurd at almost every level bracket against actual Rogue builds without LA in every regard but heavily dedicated skillmonkeys, particularly with Point Buy because you can shrug off every investment a Rogue normally makes but Intelligence to usually afford an 18. It's entirely reasonable to put a 12 in your primary ability score on this, because you'll still hit the cap on a Chain Shirt and then only need a +4 item to cap the Mithral. Combined with dumping Strength and yet still getting a 14, affording 16 "character" Int to have 9 skill ranks per hit die is downright trivial, and the Con bonuses alongside all-good-saves HD even further peel off your needs.

The biggest issue is that you're getting most of the important stuff of being an actual Rogue in your RHD, such that most Rogue 3 builds still work perfectly fine. Which means that the skillmonkey stuff you have to argue with the DM about anyways is the only real point of contention, and frankly not by very much from just how much you can dump relative to a normal Rogue. On 28 point buy, you can have 14 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, and 16 Cha, with +3 to base Fort and Will, +1 BAB, and +4 HP from HD over Rogue 3, and your blunt +3 AC from Natural Armor over any regular Rogue.

And, of course, the ability score bonuses also translate to trivially recouping the lost skill points at any but the highest level by the expedient of not investing to maximum and instead riding your innate talents. Save a rank or two on every Dexterity based skill, one or two on all the Charisma skills, and probably a bit on Constitution investments. You can throw in a very comprehensive meh on your ability score allocations and make a typical Rogue have to dig to keep up.

Even with LA +1, you're still likely to be higher in HP than a level 4 Rogue, easily able to be better at sneaking if that's a priority, able to be on par for both Dexterity and Charisma things for a lot of level breakpoints, are almost definitionally 15% less likely to be hit, get a teleport effect to just nope all sorts of nasty situations by stepping out on the other side of a wall or behind an ally... The one serious thing you're certainly losing is manipulator-based skills, which basically breaks the Rogue comparison altogether.

I honestly don't know what to compare a mix of stealth, tracking, and party face to. Savage Bard seems the closest, but has no commonality in combat, while Scout and Ranger are missing party face functions. Wilderness Rogue trades out party face to get Survival. But in this particular area, where you're taking it specifically to focus on its strengths and ignoring the standard Rogue functions its paws are a roadblock for, I'd say it actually can handle LA +2 on the back of the variety of bonuses your character receives over a more typical race, most especially the "get out of jail free" button that is Shadow Jump making HP disadvantage not much a detriment.

Edit: Unless we're settling on some strange Savage Bard based sneaky-gish as the comparison point for being the only ready-made match on the skills, but against a Rogue, LA +1 is just a no-brainer because the stuff you're behind in is largely an outright nonability, so only Rogues who don't care about Trapfinding would really think about using this.

[Thurbane]

Yet another evil planar pooch.

The Vorr is not to be confused with the Voor (MM4), or Vour (MoE), because how could that possibly get messy. :smallamused:


Medium Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar).
3 RHD (d8 hp, full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/"level").
40 ft speed.
+3 natural AC.
Bite 2d4, 2 claws 1d3.
Sneak attack +2d6: equivalent to a 3rd level Rogue. Nice.
Trip: free tip attempt on a bite. Also nice.
Outsider traits: meh.
60 ft darkvision, scent: decent.
Shadow form: weirdly worded ability, but very handy, even if its only 1/day.
Shadow jump: good, but limited to 60 ft/day.
Str +6, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Cha +4: net +16. The hit to Int hurts, but the physcial boosts are pretty sweet for 3 HD.
Short-ish, but useful, racial skill list. +8 on Survival to track by scent.
Non humanoid form, no manipulative digits, can speak.

You get some really decent stuff for 3 HD. Compared to a Rogue 3, you have better BAB, better saves, same sneak attack, 3 natural attacks you can use to sneak attack, trip, shadow form (which is a solid 1/day utility/defensive), shadow jump and good physical mods; you get no trapfinding, trap sense or evasion, worse skills, and are limited in item use.

Maybe a martial adept would be a better comparison point? Not sure.

Anyhow, I find myself in agreement with liquidformat: mark me down for LA +1. You get some good stuff for 3 RHD.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's a good thing to replace rogue 3 with... pity I never really want to take rogue 3 :smalltongue:. I'm a bit concerned about the lack of hands, too (makes the martial proficiencies a bit useless, and the claws have a very small damage die). Still, can't deny it's a strong pick at ECL 3, if you can get your SA full attack to go off.

If t4 is the comparison point for this one, it's probably good at +1. If you're aiming for more of a t3 build (sorcerer into Unseen Seer, trickster spellthief into Unseen Seer, something like that), it's probably fine at +0.

I don't like using t4 as comparison point. LA +0 it is.

[liquidformat]

This one's awkward because it's absolutely absurd at almost every level bracket against actual Rogue builds without LA in every regard but heavily dedicated skillmonkeys, particularly with Point Buy because you can shrug off every investment a Rogue normally makes but Intelligence to usually afford an 18. It's entirely reasonable to put a 12 in your primary ability score on this, because you'll still hit the cap on a Chain Shirt and then only need a +4 item to cap the Mithral. Combined with dumping Strength and yet still getting a 14, affording 16 "character" Int to have 9 skill ranks per hit die is downright trivial, and the Con bonuses alongside all-good-saves HD even further peel off your needs.

The biggest issue is that you're getting most of the important stuff of being an actual Rogue in your RHD, such that most Rogue 3 builds still work perfectly fine. Which means that the skillmonkey stuff you have to argue with the DM about anyways is the only real point of contention, and frankly not by very much from just how much you can dump relative to a normal Rogue. On 28 point buy, you can have 14 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, and 16 Cha, with +3 to base Fort and Will, +1 BAB, and +4 HP from HD over Rogue 3, and your blunt +3 AC from Natural Armor over any regular Rogue.

And, of course, the ability score bonuses also translate to trivially recouping the lost skill points at any but the highest level by the expedient of not investing to maximum and instead riding your innate talents. Save a rank or two on every Dexterity based skill, one or two on all the Charisma skills, and probably a bit on Constitution investments. You can throw in a very comprehensive meh on your ability score allocations and make a typical Rogue have to dig to keep up.

Even with LA +1, you're still likely to be higher in HP than a level 4 Rogue, easily able to be better at sneaking if that's a priority, able to be on par for both Dexterity and Charisma things for a lot of level breakpoints, are almost definitionally 15% less likely to be hit, get a teleport effect to just nope all sorts of nasty situations by stepping out on the other side of a wall or behind an ally... The one serious thing you're certainly losing is manipulator-based skills, which basically breaks the Rogue comparison altogether.

I honestly don't know what to compare a mix of stealth, tracking, and party face to. Savage Bard seems the closest, but has no commonality in combat, while Scout and Ranger are missing party face functions. Wilderness Rogue trades out party face to get Survival. But in this particular area, where you're taking it specifically to focus on its strengths and ignoring the standard Rogue functions its paws are a roadblock for, I'd say it actually can handle LA +2 on the back of the variety of bonuses your character receives over a more typical race, most especially the "get out of jail free" button that is Shadow Jump making HP disadvantage not much a detriment.

Edit: Unless we're settling on some strange Savage Bard based sneaky-gish as the comparison point for being the only ready-made match on the skills, but against a Rogue, LA +1 is just a no-brainer because the stuff you're behind in is largely an outright nonability, so only Rogues who don't care about Trapfinding would really think about using this.

The comparison point is probably a melee focused rogue rather than a skill monkey rogue. So I am thinking Rogue 3 (with penetrating strike)/Swashbuckler (arcane stunt if dm lets you as well as shield of blades and maybe drow swashbuckler ACF) 15/Swordsage 2 probably taking swordsage around level 8 and 11 to optimize choices and daring outlaw feat. That is a pretty standard baseline for a rogue that is scrapping the skill monkey side and optimizing melee, unfortunately I don't think it compares at all with Vorr, even at LA +1 it still under performs compared to a vorr. The other comparison point would probably be swordsage which I think balances out with a Vorr somewhere around level 10 even with LA +1. I will put together some builds for comparison later.

[Dalmosh]

+1 sounds all good, but is Vultivorr worth reappraising?

Its shapeshifting doesn't seem worth a whole level, but its obviously a straight upgrade on a normal Vorr.

Haraknin and Hellhound are both currently -0 so a moot point, but Shadurakul wasn't considered good enough to be worth a level ahead of shadow mastiff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The comparison point is probably a melee focused rogue rather than a skill monkey rogue. So I am thinking Rogue 3 (with penetrating strike)/Swashbuckler (arcane stunt if dm lets you as well as shield of blades and maybe drow swashbuckler ACF) 15/Swordsage 2 probably taking swordsage around level 8 and 11 to optimize choices and daring outlaw feat. That is a pretty standard baseline for a rogue that is scrapping the skill monkey side and optimizing melee, unfortunately I don't think it compares at all with Vorr, even at LA +1 it still under performs compared to a vorr. The other comparison point would probably be swordsage which I think balances out with a Vorr somewhere around level 10 even with LA +1. I will put together some builds for comparison later.
Keep in mind that swashbuckler is a terrible class and technically outside the comparison range for this thread. Daring Outlaw makes the most of it, sure, but it's still scraping the bottom of tier 4, and I don't think that is the best way to evaluate LA. Lower-tier builds scale much more slowly than casting builds, especially low-optimization builds. If you take a selection of low-power ECL 10 and ECL 11 builds, it's going to be very difficult to figure out which is which just looking at the power (e.g. the full attack numbers, saves, hp totals, etcetera), because everything's going to be within a couple of points, and optimization level is more important than ECL (this gets way worse at ECL 19 and 20, of course). It's only when you start looking at higher-power builds that one or two levels starts making a noticable difference--the classic "new level of spells" power bump is one example. Essentially, tier 3+ builds are much more sensitive to a one-point LA difference than tier 4- builds (and t2 more sensitive again than t3, and so on).

In this case, I don't think a Daring Outlaw build is a good point of comparison--all the class features are straight numbers, which don't scale well at all and thus aren't sensitive at all. Low-ECL sneak attackers without racial spellcasting should be compared to swordsages, as you say, or Assassin/Unseen Seer builds, or perhaps mystic ranger Swift Hunter/Sword of the Arcane Order builds. (All the while keeping in mind that at least three levels must be open for RHD, e.g. the pre-Assassin levels in an Assassin build.) Those builds scale much more quickly (hunter's eye alone outscales plain rogue levels with a little optimization) and quickly leave the voor and Daring Outlaw behind.

The nice thing about this comparison is that you don't have to look at the numbers and judge what, precisely, the appropriate attack bonus is for ECL 10 vs. ECL 11 or how the voor changes that. You can look at how easily/quickly the voor scales into its builds, compared to a swordsage or rogue or spellthief or whatever. For low-power builds, LA evaluation relies much more on the fiddly numerical comparisons, and you need a really strict and thorough baseline to compare to. In fact, given the many different optimization levels that are in use, you need a set of baselines, and that's something that's going to be difficult to create. (We all have ideas about what the the numbers should look like at a given level, of course, but nothing rigorous, I imagine.) For higher-power builds, you can look at scaling instead of specific numbers, and that allows the comparison between generalized builds instead of specific characters.

Anyway, all that is a long-winded way of explaining why I much prefer the swordsage comparison to the Daring Outlaw. Carry on, just thinking out loud...

[Morphic tide]

Bit of a note on builds using Rogue 3 as its stopping point, Arcane Trickster asks for 2d6 Sneak Attack. So if you can find a way to get the skill requirements in order, you're actually at the expected pace save for the level adjustment. Which is admittedly absolute hell without heavy-duty shenanians, because Beguiler is Intelligence based, Sha'ir and Sorcerer are terrible for skills, and Bard's still missing Disable Device. But it is a more substantial thing to look at for that Charisma bonus.

[Unavenger]

From the looks of it, I'll say +1 as well.

[Blue Jay]

+1 sounds all good, but is Vultivorr worth reappraising?

Its shapeshifting doesn't seem worth a whole level, but its obviously a straight upgrade on a normal Vorr.

Haraknin and Hellhound are both currently -0 so a moot point, but Shadurakul wasn't considered good enough to be worth a level ahead of shadow mastiff.

I agree with LA +1 for the vorr, but like you, I don't think the vultivor is worth an extra point of LA, so it can stay where it is.

And again, that insane Shadow Form DR slipped under the update booklet's radar. If pressed, I'd probably just have to call it DR 20/magic, but the player would probably be rather disappointed to hear that.

[Caelestion]

LA +1 from me too. Anything that is a straight upgrade on the closest comparable class is not LA 0.

[Inevitability]

Big majority for +1, I'll update the LA and move on to the wendigo!

[Inevitability]

Wendigo

https://i.imgur.com/8rzW1EY.jpg

D&D art at its finest: a weird contorted position, perfectly visible abs in spite of fur being all around them, and whatever is going on with that shoulder.

An impressive number of creatures can become wendigos (humanoids and monstrous humanoids, but also giants, animals, and magical beasts). I never actually knew you could apply this to nonhumanoids, so I guess it's time to go hit my players with a ravenous lightning-fast roper!

Wendigos get a base 120 ft. fly speed (amazing), a deflection bonus to AC equal to their charisma, the Cold subtype, regeneration 5 only overcome by fire, and some hefty ability bonuses (+8 dexterity, +4 strength/constitution/charisma, +2 wisdom). They also get a bite attack (1d6 damage if medium) that's mostly notable for transmitting wendigo disease (not too relevant for PCs, though). Damage die aside, the bite has some impressive stats: it crits on an 18-20 roll, deals triple damage on critical hits (plus three points of bleed), and gets 1.5 times the monster's strength modifier to damage.

Furthermore, wendigo can Wind Walk at will. If they use this to stalk a creature, they can gradually reduce its wisdom and impose further penalties on wisdom-based skills. Finally, Wendigo get +8 to Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.

Aside from the large fire weakness (more fun monster ideas: aquatic wendigo), this is a very interesting template that boosts movement, AC, stats, and miscellaneous defenses, while also granting an useful bite. I think +2 LA is the very minimum here, and +3 might even be in order. Do discuss!

[Falontani]

Don't wendigos lose access to all of their other natural weaponry? While it won't usually affect humanoids, ropers and most animals will definitely dislike losing their shtick.

[liquidformat]

more fun monster ideas: aquatic wendigo
Best part aquatic wendigo can't swim:biggrin: seems like a good template for something that already has the fire subtype.

You also get Track as a bonus feat and you become fey, and it doesn't say anything about recalculating your former HD besides rhd are now d6. Can someone remind me how acquired templates are handled with RHD?


Don't wendigos lose access to all of their other natural weaponry? While it won't usually affect humanoids, ropers and most animals will definitely dislike losing their shtick.

Actually this ends up being mostly in the Roper's favor as their drag strands are special attacks which the Wendigo explicitly keeps.

Its a shame Maddening Whispers is only useable once per day, the text is pretty up in the air about using it so you could probably just sit around and spam it if it was useable more than once a day. I'm going to hold off for the moment and think it over before rating.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Looking at the half-dragon--which got +2, albeit with some comments that it was weak at that LA--I think this is better, with similar-but-better ability boosts, crazy fly speed, and regeneration. It's either a strong +2 (viable even for lower-power casters), or a weak +3 (for noncasters only). I'll go with +2, but I won't protest a +3.

[Efrate]

I adore this template; it's a quick way to supercharge a special monster encounter. It's at least a +2, +3 wouldn't be amiss. It's a great way to add some weird horror to someone being haunted on an overland adventure.

[Thurbane]

Type change to Fey, and gain Cold Subtype (with the usual immunity and vulnerability).
HD change to d6 (doesn't specify racial HD only. Odd)
Fly 120 (perfect), lose all other movement modes. Hey, who needs em when you can fly like that?
Deflection bonus to AC equal to Cha mod. Nice.
Bite becomes your sole attack. Does that preclude weapon use with your hands/limbs?
Disease - turn others into cannibals and Wendigos. Not much use for a PC, you don't gain any control over your victims.
Maddening Whispers - 1d3 Wis damage, save negates, to one chosen victim only.
Ravenous Bite - bite attack has increased critical threat range, and inflicts bleeding wounds.
Corner of the Eye - your chosen victim takes -2 to Wis based skill checks.
Regeneration 5 - overcome by fire.
Wind Walk at will - move action to activate/deactivate. Nice.
Str +4,Dex +8, Con +4, Wis +2, Cha +4: net +22, no penalties.
+8 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently, and Survival.
Track as a bonus feat.
So, you get a lot of good stuff, but I'm concerned you can no longer wield weapons (except Mouthpick). I guess caster or skillmonkey would be viable in any case.

I'll agree with LA +3, but could also see it as a strong +2.

[Caelestion]

The deflection, regen, flight and excellent stats are very nice. The deadly bite even makes up for any attacks lost. The only thing that gives me pause before saying LA +3 is that you become a fey and likely get an RHD decrease.

[liquidformat]

The deadly bite even makes up for any attacks lost.

I mean you are doing 1d6 bite damage as medium or 2d4 as large that isn't that impressive even with 18-20/x3. Crit fishing really isn't that great of a strategy without a lot of optimization.

Concerns I am having with Windingo from reading through it. All your HD change to d6 and bite becomes your only attack, note this doesn't say you loose other natural attacks but this is your SOLE attack. Heck a strict DM might even say no touch attacks unless they are delivered with your bite...

Granted if you are rogue, wizard, sorcerer or similarly low hp class this might be no change or an upgrade but only being able to make bite attacks is a large concern for any non-caster builds. With that said I still can't see going below +2 as that would make this a gimme for all casters who are ok with being evil. I think I will stay with +2 LA since we can't change LA based on class choice, if we could I would say this is +1 for non casters and +3 for casters.

[Caelestion]

If you had the sort of "strict" GM that enforces your class dice changing to d6s as well, a non-caster (with the possible exception of a rogue) is not going to take the template regardless, are they?

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, many classes with higher than a d6 don't want this template that badly when things like draconic goliaths are on the table.

[Remuko]

i cant make heads or tails of this tbh. it doesnt feel worth as much as people are saying. throw me in for +2 i guess, just to try to stop this from getting +3 and being worthless.

[liquidformat]

If you had the sort of "strict" GM that enforces your class dice changing to d6s as well, a non-caster (with the possible exception of a rogue) is not going to take the template regardless, are they?

I think the kicker is more the question of how your dm interprets sole attack than d6s. If your dm thinks that just means no natural weapons but still can use weapon attacks and attacks gained through class levels I could see a totemist, dragonfire adept or maybe even Psychic Warrior still jumping onboard even if they have d6s. On the other hand if your dm interprets sole attack as you only get a bite attack period, then yeah only casters and probably not even rogue...

[danielxcutter]

...Aren't spells listed under special attacks?

[liquidformat]

...Aren't spells listed under special attacks?

The template explicitly allows you to keep all special attacks of the base creature so spells are still fine it is just things like natural weapons and questionably the ability to use manufactured weapons as well as natural attacks gained through class levels that is a concern.

[Debatra]

I always err on the side of lower LA on borderline cases. Put me down for +2.

[Inevitability]

+2: 5 votes
+3: 2 votes

Note that this rating involved me interpreting some votes to the best of my ability (bold your votes, people!).

[Inevitability]

Wicker Man

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50142.jpg

I gotta hand it to them: a building-sized flaming effigy that tries to grab you and store you in its chest cavity is nothing if not creative.

As a PC, however, it fails to impress. Huge size and 28 strength are nice, but 12 RHD are a steep price, no intelligence sucks, and ambiguously prehensile digits don't help. The wicker man also has few offensive traits outside of grappling, with its other abilities (Magic Immunity, Fire Immunity, Hardness 5, Piercing Immunity) all being defense-focused.

I feel like this would compare reasonably to a Tier 5 character, but I don't think it's on par with the Tier 3-4 benchmark used here. -0 LA but not absolutely terrible.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Agreed, -0.

Wicker men are based on a particular type of human sacrifice alledgedly performed by the Celts. Like other gruesome Roman tales about the Celts any people Romans ever fought, it's probably nonsense, but it makes for an interesting monster concept.

[Efrate]

-0. It's an okay horror-y encounter or a story setpiece but as a pc it doesnt get there.

[Thurbane]

"The bees, the bees!"


Huge Construct
12 RHD (d10 HD, medium BAB, no good saves, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score - sadly, no racial skills though).
Speed 40 ft (can't run - was that dropped in 3.5?).
2 slams 2d8.
Encage: trap grappled victims in your chest.
Improved Grab: standard for a lot of large melee type monsters.
Construct traits: the usual goodies and drawbacks.
Fire immunity: without the accompanying vulnerability to cold - nice.
Flaming body: when exposed to flame, set foes on fire, damage grapplers, and damage anyone in your chest. 10 minutes at a time, 5 minute cooldown.
Hardness 5: small number, but hardness is generally better than DR in most aspects.
immunity to magic: presumably updated to be inline with golems etc. so only against spells that are SR: yes. Entangle spells heal you.
immunity to piercing: nice.
Str +18, Dex -2, Con --, Int --, Cha -10: presumably you'll be getting Awakened to be a PC, which leaves you with +18 Str, -2 Dex and no Con score.
Huge humanoid in form, and looks like it could manipulate objects.

It gets some OK stuff, but I don't think you get enough to make up for 12 awful RHD.

LA -0 from me too.

[liquidformat]

"The bees, the bees!"


Huge Construct
12 RHD (d10 HD, medium BAB, no good saves, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score - sadly, no racial skills though).
Speed 40 ft (can't run - was that dropped in 3.5?).
2 slams 2d8.
Encage: trap grappled victims in your chest.
Improved Grab: standard for a lot of large melee type monsters.
Construct traits: the usual goodies and drawbacks.
Fire immunity: without the accompanying vulnerability to cold - nice.
Flaming body: when exposed to flame, set foes on fire, damage grapplers, and damage anyone in your chest. 10 minutes at a time, 5 minute cooldown.
Hardness 5: small number, but hardness is generally better than DR in most aspects.
immunity to magic: presumably updated to be inline with golems etc. so only against spells that are SR: yes. Entangle spells heal you.
immunity to piercing: nice.
Str +18, Dex -2, Con --, Int --, Cha -10: presumably you'll be getting Awakened to be a PC, which leaves you with +18 Str, -2 Dex and no Con score.
Huge humanoid in form, and looks like it could manipulate objects.

It gets some OK stuff, but I don't think you get enough to make up for 12 awful RHD.

LA -0 from me too.
Yeah and awaken construct should apply but doesn't do enough to offset 12 rhd... -0 LA seems right here.

So did we decide what the next book will be?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think I've seen a bunch of people wanting to do the "Monster Manual VI", or all the online monsters and stuff. Which sounds cool to me. I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.

[unseenmage]

I think I've seen a bunch of people wanting to do the "Monster Manual VI", or all the online monsters and stuff. Which sounds cool to me. I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.
While I agree that Symbiotic is a mess, Incarnate Construct is a just a straight downgrade.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

While I agree that Symbiotic is a mess, Incarnate Construct is a just a straight downgrade.

Incarnate Construct sucks, true, but as it stands it currently has a negative LA, which this thread doesn't do. (Though it would be interesting to try and determine precisely what fraction of a level a featureless HD is worth, and give it an LA along the lines of "negative [1/2 racial HD] (minimum zero)", letting the player load up on more templates to make up the lost class features.)

[Prime32]

I'd also really like to do Savage Species at some point; potentially skipping a few of the truly swingy ones like Incarnate Construct and Symbiotic Creature.The way I always read Symbiotic Creature is... it lets you combine with a second creature, but it doesn't give you the second creature. If you want to use it as a PC, then you need to combine with your animal companion, familiar, cohort, etc.

[Morphic tide]

The Wicker Man is a touch interesting as a -0 because it's mostly a matter of having only one thing to do that's not perfectly applicable, but unlike the standard borderline of t4 and t5 Martial, that thing makes it perfectly useful for non-lethal combat encounters because it can Encage enemies and just keep them. Three Large, and goes down from there at the standard doubling, so you can pretty easily scoop up whole bands of ruffians to turn in to the town guard.

And for Huge enemies and up? Well, you do have hands explicitly able to hold things, are Huge yourself, and have 26 Strength. So you ought to very readily function as a conventional Martial with little investment, but you don't really have the space to get anywhere with being anything more than a beatstick. It's probably in a better position, overall, than a standard Barbarian 20, and the infamous frontloading of the Pounce works just as well with the requisite levels in play, even though I think this is a niche where Monk might actually not be a meme for the rapid access to grappling feats and movement acceleration.

So I guess I'm saying LA +0, because it's a big monster with passable damage and battlefield control that doesn't have to be lethal? Not Ubercharger damage, but probably better than the Spiked Chain Trippers and likely more reliable battlefield control than them. Definitely solid for a t4 party, because it actually does something beyond beating face, and seems to have enough defensive chops to shrug off being Con-less.

If I'm understanding this properly, you can by baseline, before you're even touching the PC ability scores, deal 4d8+18 Bludgeoning damage and 4d6 Fire each turn, from being able to use the two Slams every turn to do the grapples and then the Flaming Body damage. And Improved Natural Attack (Slam) adds 1d8 to each Slam for one feat, while the enhancement-carrying amulet for Natural Weapons only needs to cover two for a sensible amount. Maybe also Armor Spike damage, which is 2d6 by baseline, but I've no idea how applicable that actually is because I don't know if you can still get your BAB-based grapple checks to use the Armor Spike damage.

And this can be split between two targets being actively pummeled and another three to twelve enemies "stored" to suffer 10d6 Fire a turn. And if you can mix in the BAB grapples, that's another two to start with and a third at probably level 14, with all the subjects being locked down relatively reliably, with a non-zero shot at Colossal enemies being locked down at the end of campaign with enough optimization.

Edit: The big thing here is that the downsides of Construct RHD aren't critical for a Huge Grappler, and being a Construct with Immunity to Magic (Ex) means you have almost no reason to care about saving throws. Having any Hardness is a big thing for making even more a mockery of the need for saves, because the few non-magic Energy damage sources will be halved without issue, and you have a separate immunity to the most common of them. It's just layers and layers of stuff that looks simple, but usable, to me, in the context of the narrowly-good t4 build spaces.

The question to ask here is if you'd trade the back 12 of Fighter, Monk, or Barbarian 13-15 for this thing. And I think that's a quite genuine question for just the pile of blunt no you get out of it. May also be some edge-cases with Setting Sun Swordsages, but that's a losing proposition for the more general comparison to the class because Initiators can't casually throw away 12 levels.

(also, the archive has the Shadow Asp link to the Shadar-kai post)

[InvisibleBison]

Having any Hardness is a big thing for making even more a mockery of the need for saves, because the few non-magic Energy damage sources will be halved without issue

Having a hardness score doesn't make you take half damage from energy. Objects take half damage from energy, true, but that's independent of their hardness score.

[danielxcutter]

Didn't someone enter one of these in the Villainous Comps?

[Inevitability]

Yellow Musk Creeper

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50152.jpg

A semi-iconic take on the 'stuff that turns people into zombies' theme.

Six plant RHD aren't a great start, and the stats leave something to be desired as well. Strength is a mere 10 (pitiful on a Huge creature), with only Dexterity (16) and Constitution (21) even getting a positive modifier. Saving it from being completely worthless in melee are six 15 ft-reach vine whips, which notably can be improved with Rapidstrike later on (and free Weapon Finesse means that low strength doesn't hurt as much).

The Creeper also gets Blindsight, but explicitly has normal sight as well (unusual for plant monsters). Regeneration 5 overcome only by fire and acid is cool, too.

Finally, the special abilities. The first, Consume Intelligence, forces the Creeper to share its space with another creature then slowly deals Intelligence damage. Frail creatures (those who don't make a Fortitude saving throw) are devoured, all others become Yellow Musk zombies (roughly equivalent to normal zombies in terms of combat utility). I'm not entirely sure about infinite free zombies at this low an ECL, so this probably deserves an asterisk. Secondly, help it get creatures into its space, the Creeper can also spray mind-altering spores, which is a pretty cool Fortitude-based save-or-lose that can be spammed quite a bit.

Is the creeper practical to use? Not really: it's a Huge-sized plant with 5 ft. of movement, unimpressive melee presence and no real special attacks outside of spamming spores (which, admittedly, are pretty solid). However, those flaws can be worked around, leading to an unconventional yet usable PC. +0* LA.

[Blue Jay]

This is such a delightfully alien --- but creepy and unpleasant --- idea for a PC. It's probably going to be difficult for a DM to work with, especially with the infinite, but short-lifespan, better-than-zombies. So I agree that the asterisk is warranted. There's also a bit of ambiguity around the mind-affecting and intelligence-consuming special attacks, especially with regards to how someone can be rescued from them. For example, the conditions required for breaking the mind control and ending the brain-eating are different, but there aren't any provisions addressing what happens when one is broken without the other. You could hypothetically break the mind control through some means or another, leaving an uncontrolled victim inside the plant. Presumably, some kind of grapple rules might come into play at this point, but that's not addressed. Or, some text implies that you can extract a victim from the plant, but by RAW the brain-eating continues until either the victim or the creeper is dead. It shouldn't be too tough to make some decisions, but this is something the player and DM should consider beforehand.

And it will also be tough for a player to use a musk creeper PC in a lot of situations, so that will definitely keep it from having too high an LA. In my pre-vote, I gave it +1*, mainly because of (Ex) mind-control (which bypasses many countermeasures, like the resurgence spell) and six melee attacks with reach. But, now I realize that there isn't a Trip or Improved Grab on those (which I think I had assumed before), and I'm also thinking that the mindlessness and slow movement speed are much bigger hindrances than I previously appreciated. Personally, I'm a fan of allowing free "awaken" effects for monster PCs, but I'm just starting to appreciate that that's not necessarily a given for all DMs. So, I think my vote will be LA +0* for the yellow musk creeper.

[Morphic tide]

I very much agree this thing needs a *, but how difficult is a very low base movement speed to deal with really, since that seems the main sticking point? It has a movement speed, so every bonus in the game works, and the thing's a plenty useful blender for less build dedication than a lot of the "canon" heavy gishes. Wild Shape Ranger would get to 15 ft. movement at 7 overall HD, which is enough to cover basic PC-dom even if it's still pathetic for combat terms (you'll basically be tied up as a hideous threat to anyone trying to melee your allies), and you're getting full BAB and a per-hit damage bonus. Come Ranger 5, you get Wild Shape online, thereby letting you move around quite well and turn back into your proper self in sufficiently opportune situations for a wonderful popup blender that is a lot better than basically any Wild Shape form.

One can instead go for a Barbarian that doesn't trade the Fast Movement, if you want to get into something to do with Rage, like go mad with blender as a Totem Rager.

[Efrate]

An odd case here. Infinite better than zombies at 6hd deserves an asterisk for sure, but otherwise it's a weird kind of mess. Movement is pretty easily fixed, size makes it more difficult to actually adventure. WS ranger is a good fix, but...that's about it. Anyone else get size altering or transformation at level 1? Also that strength at huge is a lick in the teeth.

I think I can give it +0*. Size is an issue as is NI zombies, but if you can work on that and movement I think it functions fine an an EL 7 party with a level of something.

[Dalmosh]

Anyone else get size altering or transformation at level 1?

Shapeshift Druid (and Totem Druid if Dragon content is available).

[Thurbane]

This is a bit of a weird one, tough to rate.


Huge Plant (with reach).
6 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, one good save, and 2 skill points/"level" once you get an Int score).
Speed 5 ft: yeah, you're going to need to do something about that if you want to be an adventurer.
+6 natural AC.
6 vine whips 1d6; musk puff ranged attack.
Consume Intelligence: 1d4 Int damage/round to helpless or willing creatures in reach. This results in digestion or becoming a zombie plant once you hit 0 Int, depending on a Fort save. Minionmancy, and the end result is generally better than a standard zombie, also without HD limit.
Musk puff: Fort save and move up and stand around for 2d8 rounds getting your Int drained.
Blindsight 30 ft: seems to be as well as normal sight, if I'm reading the fluff text correctly?
Plant traits: lots of nice immunities.
Regeneration 5, overcome by fire of acid. Nice.
Dex +6, Con +10, Int --, Cha -2: net +14 with opne non-ability. You're obviously going to need an Int score somehow to be playable.
Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
No racial skills.
Very non-standard body type, can't speak; may be able to manipulate items with vines, if the DM is feeling generous.

I'll tentatively go along with LA +0* for now.

[One Step Two]

I had a player use an awakened Yellow Musk creeper in a game I ran a while back, and so I just wanted to add some information that might help people. The minionmancy can seem scary, because while the Yellow Musk Creeper can turn any creature with an Int score (who is not immune to ability damage) into a Plant Zombie, there's some limitations:

They can only use that zombie for two months, after which, it dies.
Without some way to specifically command the Plant Zombies they are effectively just drones to wander within 100 feet of the creeper that can only perform two actions: feeding it more victims, or defending it from being killed.
They can use weapons and armor, no other class features, feats or skills.

The benefits of the zombies are:

They are plants, and not undead. It even gains low-light vision.
They can still use any racial Ex, Sp, and Su abilities. So technically, a Drow Plant zombie can still use their Darkness SLA, but it cannot cast spells if it used to be a Wizard, though it potentially needs to be commanded specifically to do so.
When the Zombie dies, another Yellow Musk creeper grows in 1 hour.


The in-built limited lifespan of the Plant Zombies can be a balance point, but the fast growth of a new Yellow Musk creeper can be exponential growth, especially if you have access to the Plant Domain, or the Command Plants spell.

[Inevitability]

+0* LA it is, yellow musk zombies up next.

[Inevitability]

Yellow Musk Zombies

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/47/b5/03/47b503cdb5c73fb44ef1fba9006a35df.jpg

I bet there's some Plants vs Zombies reference I could make here.

Anyway, the yellow musk zombie is essentially a zombie-but-plant-typed, which is still not very good. RHD changes to d8, AC goes up a bit, intelligence/dexterity/wisdom all take a hit, and the typing becomes plant. There's not even a strength bonus, which regular zombie does provide.

The zombies are also dependent on a creeper: for two months after creation they must stay close to it and afterwards they wander for a short while before dying. This is an (Ex) ability, meaning that getting rid of it might be tricky... I guess Acorn of Far Travel still works? Like all location abilities, this is worth an asterisk.

Few PCs are improved by tanking their stats, rendering them location-bound, and removing their low-level feats. If you really want to play this, your best bet would probably to die in some spot that your enemies like, saddle them with a yellow musk creeper infestation, and then roll something more reasonable. -0* LA.

(Also, something I just noticed: yellow musk zombies are actually smarter than the creepers that spawn them. The implications of this are amusing)

[Efrate]

-0* Nothing much to see there, creeper zombie is not impressive in any way.

[liquidformat]

easy -0* loose all your feats, skills, and class abilities and become unable to gain any until you die and your brain explodes with a creeper's birth or are cured. I do love the nod to the animal world zombies that these yellow musks give.

On an interesting side note this template actually does not inhibit racial spellcasting, SLAs, and racial features that emulate class features; so it is an interesting template to toss on more exotic monsters like fey that often get spell casting or sneak attack as racial features.

Honestly I am on the fence whether yellow musk creeper deserves an asterisk, musk puff and consume intelligence are both capped at DC 18, which even at ecl 6 isn't that hard of a fort DC to hit and only becomes easier as levels rise and harder to optimize and leverage. Also if a DM chooses to remove the ability to make musk zombies altogether I think the Creeper would be -0 at that point if there was simply a cap on the number of zombies then it would probably be +0.

I suppose from the yellow musk creeper player point of view you want to target exotic creatures to zombafy, the best path for them might be to go cleric or druid even with the caster level hit and try to optimize a build that reduces enemies saves? Maybe hexblade would be a good choice here to get dark companion or something like that?

Could the Awaken spell be used on Yellow Musk Creepers to make them playable, or would we have to go with something like fiendish/celestial?

Hmm seems like going Fiendish Phrenic Yellow Musk Creeper might make this thing pretty decent.

[Thurbane]

I agree with all of the above: LA -0* from me as well.

[Morphic tide]

I'll go ahead and back the LA -0*, but I have a decidedly different perspective on a player using a Yellow Musk Zombie, because they're explicitly the "prenatal" state of the Yellow Musk Creeper. All decision-making is coming from the "seed", not the host creature, so the character is the yet-to-be-"born" Yellow Musk Creeper. Consequently, I'd basically treat it as a one-up where the Zombie's death has the player go on as the Creeper an hour later.

And because this is explicitly the mechanism of reproduction, Inherited Templates would be present in the "spawned" Yellow Musk Creeper. Spellwarped makes for a particularly bothersome option that also covers the need for higher Intelligence on the Zombies, though set-to templates or Awaken are required for the Creeper itself.

[Inevitability]

Yuan-Ti Anathema

https://yigprime.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/yig-changeii.jpg

Sadly, we're off to a poor start here: the anathema's chassis is an unimpressive 22 aberration RHD, with pretty standard stats for such a creature. Its DR, energy resistances, and SR all come in useful, though they all feel somewhat low for an Epic PC. Regeneration 5 overcome by Force and Adamantine is, again, useful, but numerically unimpressive. Six bites complement a weapon attack very nicely, especially when all deliver constitution-draining poison and have a chance to grab (then again, how many Epic foes will still be vulnerable to either?)

In terms of magical ability, the anathema has the standard yuan-ti PLAs (Alternate Form, Chameleon, Detect Poison, Dissolving Touch, and Mass Aversion) as well as a number of SLAs (3/day Haste and Polymorph Other are probably most interesting, but 1/day Blasphemy and Unholy Aura have their uses too). That said, mid-level spells are far from enough to create a viable character.

Finally, yuan-ti can provide yuan-ti grafts to other creatures, which depend on how you read the rules may or may not cost money. Most of these are pretty sub-par, although I suppose it can grant one or two new attacks to a natural weapons build.

In the end, I just don't think this snakelike monster has what it takes to be an epic-level PC. -0 LA, faintly considering +0.

[Efrate]

-0. 22 HD is a LOT. You are in epic territory and you cannot hang as is.

[danielxcutter]

Wow, they couldn’t even be arsed to remember that Yuan-ti are usually monstrous humanoids. I could probably make a stronger Truenamer with that many levels; LA -0 all the way down.

[Unavenger]

Wow, they couldn’t even be arsed to remember that Yuan-ti are usually monstrous humanoids. I could probably make a stronger Truenamer with that many levels; LA -0 all the way down.

An epic truenamer could call one of these if they cared. Definite LA -0.

[liquidformat]

Easy -0 LA

[ExLibrisMortis]

Come on guys, be more optimistic! It'll only take you to ECL 40 to hit level-appropriate abilities!

Uh, yeah. LA -0.

[Thurbane]

It has a couple of decent SLAs, but nothing to warrant 22 RHD of a poor kind. Definitely LA -0.

[Edea]

LA -0 vote for me, as well.

[Random Sanity]

Aberration RHD, Regen that everybody and his dog has a way to shut down at that level, a handful of spell-likes and the like that are 10ish levels behind the curve ... there's words to accurately describe this as an epic-level PC, but none of them are fit for polite company. -0

[Inevitability]

Next update will cover all yugoloths, but it won't be for a few more days on account of high workload. Thank y'all for being patient!

[Inevitability]

Yugoloth

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50107.jpg

The less photogenic, less interesting, Neutral Evil counterpart to demons and devils!

All yugoloth have a mild variation on the traditional fiend resistances: immunity to poison and acid, resistance to fire, cold, and electric. They're also all telepathic.


Piscoloth

Best known for... it's eight-strips appearance run in OotS?

Their chassis is decidedly mediocre: nine outsider RHD aren't bad, but medium size and moderate stats disappoint. Two pinchers and eight tentacles sound cool, but note that the latter can only paralyze (still good, but worthless against certain foes). The pinchers themselves deal a decent 2d6 damage and have Augmented Criticals to boot. Some SR and DR round off the chassis.

More interesting is the boatload of SLAs that piscoloths get. At-will Protection From Good and Detect Magic are solid utility, See Invisibility and Blink are great buffs, and 3/day Meld Into Stone, Stinking Cloud, and Phantasmal Killer all have their uses as well. It's not enough to exclusively rely on, but it sure helps! Also there's the ability to summon skeroloths, more on those down below.

Considering that spells are cool, good RHD are cool, and eight paralyzing attacks a round are cool, I'm going to go and assign +1 LA here.


Skeroloth

The skeroloth is smaller, skulkier, and considerably scrawnier than its counterpart. Four outsider RHD, small size, and stats clearly tailored towards a less physical role (+6 dexterity, +2 constitution, -2 wisdom, -6 intelligence). The skeroloth gets a Climb and Burrow speed, which actually bypasses a lot of obstacles at low levels, as well as the very interesting combination of four (weak) claws and 1d6 sneak attack. Add in Craven, strength bonuses, rogue levels, and other static damage increasers, and you are looking at a very potent sneak attacker.

Skeroloths aren't just martial either: they get the ability to summon others of their kind (albeit unreliably) and they have a number of usable SLAs. At-will Daze, Detect Good, and Jump all have their small uses, and 3/day Burning Hands and Expeditious Retreat are similarly nice to have. Nothing world-ending here, though.

Finally, skeroloths can 'cringe' and compel foes to attack someone other than them: nice to stay alive in a pinch but mostly pointless.

+0 LA should be fine: a 5th-level rogue and a 1st-level skeroloth rogue both have a lot going for them, but the former's higher sneak attack (and therefore PrC access) and better skills make me believe neither will dominate the other.

[danielxcutter]

And TIL what the daemon summoned by Zz'dtri was actually called. You know, even considering that OotS' artstyle makes a lot of monsters easier on the eyes, that is one ugly bastard.

[liquidformat]

Hum I am on the fence with PisClothe, old pissy isn't bad at level 9 but I can't see what direction to send him to keep him relevant at level 10 and on. I feel like it would quickly drop off as useless unless you are adding in a game breaking prc like Urpriest. I will hold off to see other people's thoughts on PisClothe

Skeroloth seems pretty decent for hopping into swordsage or a rogue build or so forth so no real issues there, it also seems relatively well balanced at +0 LA, net 0 ability scores, a small smattering of SLAs, 1d6 sneak attack, 4 claws but no manipulators and uncertain if it can speak. Also worth noting is they do become medium with an extra rhd I don't know if that is going to change anyone's evaluation but it is worth noting.

[Thurbane]

Think I'll tackle these one at a time...

Pisoloth


Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
9 RHD (full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/"level")
Speed 30 ft, swim 20 ft.
+14 natural AC: not bad.
2 pincers 2d6, and 8 tentacles which cause paralysis for 2d6 minutes, save negates.
Augmented critical: 19-20/x3 on pincers. Not bad.
SLAs: at-will blink, fear, detect good, detect magic, protection from good, scare, see invisibility; 3/day—meld into stone, phantasmal killer, stinking cloud; 2/day greater teleport [self-only]CL 9. Not a bad array. Nothing overly powerful, but some good stuff in there (at will blink is very nice).
Summon yugoloth: 3/day 4 skeroloths, 60% chance. Alternatively, 1d3 mezzoloths with 30% chance. Not bad, compared to a lot of innate summons.
All-around vision: which doesn't get detailed? generally a bonus to spot and search, and can't be flanked.
DR 10/magic: if not updated to something else, not all that useful, but not bad against against some natural attacks.
Outsider traits.
SR 20: not bad, but tapers off.
Yugoloth traits: immune to poison and acid, resist cold, fire and electricity 10; telepathy 100 ft. Nice.
Str +8, Con +4, Int -4, Cha +4: net +12. The hit to Int is annoying.
Decent racial skill list. +8 racial bonus to swim.

Medium, vagluely humanoid(ish). Not sure how those pincers will go at wielding or manipulating items. No speech mentioned, but they have telepathy.

It's a bit of a mixed bag, but I think it would be playable at ECL 10. You do get some decent SLAs, and 8 paralysing attacks/round. I'm tentatively going along with LA +1.

I vastly preferred the 1E art for these (I'm a big Holloway fan).

https://i.imgur.com/7K8zc7e.png

[Thurbane]

Daemonic Flea (Skeroloth)


Small Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
4 RHD (full BAB, all good saves, 8 skill points/"level")
Speed 40 ft, burrow 20 ft, climb 20 ft: nice.
+6 natural AC: not bad.
4 claws 1d3.
Sneak attack 1d6
SLAs: at will - daze, detect good, jump; 3/day—burning hands, expeditious retreat; CL 4. All low level, nothing that really stands out.
Summon yugoloth: 1/day summon skeroloth, 40% chance. Not great.
Cringe: kind of like like an at will Sanctuary. Low DC.
Outsider traits.
Yugoloth traits: immune to poison and acid, resist cold, fire and electricity 10; telepathy 100 ft. Nice.
Dex +6, Con +2, Int -6, Wis -2: net +0. That hit to Int hurts, a lot - especially if you are planning to skillmonkey.
Short racial skill list. Useful skills, but not enough of them. +4 racial bonus on hide and move silently; +8 on climb.
Weird body shape, and the claws in that illustration aren't wielding anything. No speech listed, but it has telepathy.

To be honest, I just can't see myself playing this, even at ECL 4. I guess telepathy, movement modes and energy immunities/resistances are good; but the hit to Int, and seeming inability to wield items relegates you to a natural attacker. As a skillmonkey, -6 to Int is just awful; and as a melee type, you're going to have to jump through hoops to wield weapons - also, you are small with no Str bonus. I supposed you could concentrate on boosting sneak attack on your 4 attacks, but in most cases the skill points coming from those classes will be impaired by your Int penalty. I'm not overly familiar with Incarnum, but maybe you could do something with that?

I can't really see a role for this guy. LA -0 from me.

[Efrate]

+0 and -0. Flea is just bad, and I think the other is playable if not great.

[Blue Jay]

I like LA +1 for the piscoloth and LA +0 for the skeroloth. I don't have the energy to much in the way of analysis at the moment, but I'm onboard with Inevitability's and Thurbane's reasoning. The skeroloth is kind of weak for ECL 4, but I think the combination of a burrow speed, 4 claws, some minor SLAs and a bit of Sneak Attack is enough for relevancy at low levels, so I'm voting +, instead of -.

[Inevitability]

Piscoloth:
+1: Thurbane, Blue Jay
+0: Efrate

Skeroloth:
+0: liquid, Blue Jay
-0: Thurbane, Efrate

LA's will remain at +1 and +0, respectively.

[Inevitability]

Yurian

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/35/Yurian_3e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200306095149

Not to be confused with the smelly tropical fruit.

Despite looking like some scary high-HD aberration, yurians are perfectly playable 3 RHD monstrous humanoids. They explicitly can do fine manipulation with their second set of limbs, and have two additional arms with big 1d6 pinchers on them. Their ability scores are solid: +4 strength and constitution at the cost of 2 intelligence and charisma. Finally, they have a low swim speed.

Yurians also have a 'limited regeneration' ability that lets them regrow limbs and eyestalks (but doesn't provide hit point restoration or anything like it), which is flavorful but unlikely to ever matter in-game.

I like the concept of these creatures, and I feel like they're almost playable, but in the end any yurian PC is stuck taking three RHD that compare infavorably to fighter levels. That said, natural armor and stat boosts are nice, so I guess this is barely worth +0? Probably not worth using in a campaign where water orcs are a benchmark, though.

[Dimers]

Clearly the yurian will be compared against T4 beatsticks, and I think it gets LA +0 for that. Two extra attacks and +6 natural armor compare just fine to what a barbarian or fighter would gain from class levels.

[Efrate]

+0

They compare fine to a t4 beatstick.

[ExLibrisMortis]

LA -0. With one class level, a bit weaker than equivalent beatsticks (even more without a class level). Monstrous humanoid HD aren't the best (related: the yurian appears to have good fort/ref, but it should have good ref/will--not sure if this is a 3.0 thing), skills aren't good, and extra natural attacks aren't that amazing. It can grow to Large size, but only at 6 HD. It's definitely much more playable than the art suggests, though. And I think it's pretty well-written: it mentions limbs, air/water breathing, and speech; on top of that, the limited regeneration ability makes sense without being too powerful. I'd actually play one of these. They seem nice.

[DeTess]

LA+0. It isn't exciting, and it needs a (martial initiator) class level to get going, but once you've got a couple of levels in crusader or whatever the stat bonuses make it good enough to play.

[Remuko]

-0 just doesnt offer enough for 3 HD even for a beatstick.

[Thurbane]

Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Aquatic)
3 RHD (full BAB, 2 good saves, 2 skill points/"level")
Speed 30 ft, swim 20 ft.
+6 natural AC
2 claws 1d6 (why is the Piscoloth described as having pincers, while these guys are described as having claws?)
Darkvision 60 ft.
Limited regeneration: not as exciting as it sounds. Regrow lost limbs - not bad, but how often does it come up in gameplay?
Str +4, Con +4, Int -2, Cha -2: net +4.
Small racial skill list. +4 on Hide Checks, +8 on Swim checks.
Basically humanoid in shape. Not sure how those "claws" will go at wielding items, although the smaller limbs are noted to be capable of fine manipulation, and also that they craft items. Can speak, and specifically noted to be able to breathe air and water.

Thoroughly unremarkable race. Is it worth 3RHD? I think it's really borderline. If your DM rules you can wield weapons (which the fluff would lean towards), then I'd say weak LA +0. Obviously more useful in a primarily aquatic campaign.

I kind of wish they weren't so bizarre looking, and more like the 1E Crab Men (although not so cartoony)

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u5GG_uleQ6M/S8itbpKO8oI/AAAAAAAAAEM/MW0JZbTJX-Q/s1600/Crab+man+full+page+illu.jpg

[Debatra]

The stat boosts (or more specifically the penalties) kinda pidgeonhole you into being a beatstick. But you're a decent beatstick. Maybe it'd be a little worse than a straight Fighter or Barbarian, but I'd say it's either a slight upgrade or a sidegrade. +0

[Inevitability]

LA updated to +0, TO cheeseman upcoming.

[Inevitability]

Zodar

https://ralp.net/dungeons/he-man/img/zodar.jpg

The final monster of the book (assuming symbionts don't count as monsters) (wait, do they?) (okay so do you guys want symbionts bc I'll totally rate those).

Zodars are 16 RHD constructs. Their chassis is moderate: a 60 ft. land speed is impressive, but 25 strength is as high as stats get and the zodar has two nonabilities to further complicate matters. In typical first-edition-weirdness fashion, zodars are immune to all 'attacks' except those made by bludgeoning weapons. I'm going to assume this covers weapon and spell attacks, but not something like, say, Fireball.

Offensively, a zodar primarily relies on its two slams. It can also grapple foes (using regular grapple attacks, making this perhaps the first monster to actually rely on those) and then constrict them for a low amount of damage per turn. Furthermore, thrice per day it can double its strength for one round, which is a cool ability hamstrung by uses and poor base damage.

And finally, Zodars get a free (Su) Wish once per year. Even with this ridiculous usage cap, this breaks the game wide open, so an asterisk is definitely in order.

Sadly, with Wish gone all zodars have going for them are some ridiculous defenses, but without powerful AoOs, control abilities, or offensive presence it's hard to claim they will be very relevant in-combat. -0* LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yeah, -0* LA is fine. Its defences are very impressive, but they can be emulated at a lower ECL (starmantle + ruin delver's fortune + friendly fire gets you pretty close) with just WBL, and then you'd actually be good at something besides not dying. Relying on grapples at this ECL is just insulting. I don't see what you'd do with a zodar, really. It's got so little.

Symbionts are definitely monsters. Bring it on!

[Efrate]

Also wanna see symbionts. -0* on Zodar. Though I think by RAW anything that forces a save or imposes a condition counts as an attack so they are super tough, but they just do not do anything other than kind of exist.

[Luccan]

The picture is definitely better, but the pose and general shape makes me think of something out of Zelda CD-i

LA -0* for the Wish-granting grapple-golem

Edit: whether we do Symbiont or not, was the next book decided upon yet?

[Blue Jay]

I like the yurian/crabman, but I'm not too keen on the 3rd edition name and artwork. I kind of like this artwork:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/ac/Crabman2e.gif/revision/latest?cb=20151118033456
I agree with LA +0 for the yurian: it's good enough, and I'd like to try one sometime; but it's nothing particularly exciting, mechanics-wise.

The option to have one extra-big claw is unique. Potentially having 2 natural attacks with the same name, but different damage values, raises some mechanical questions for me. Like, do you have to treat the big claw and small claw as separate natural weapons? Or do they still count as two of a pair? Maybe the big claw is primary, and the small claw as secondary? Would "Improved Natural Attack (claw)" increase the big one to 2d6 and the little one to 1d8? Or, would you have to take "Improved Natural Attack (big claw)" and "Improved Natural Attack (small claw)" as separate feats? Admittedly minor questions, but they still bother me a bit.

---

The zodar is just lame: I don't really have much to say about it, other than LA -0* for the zodar.

[Dalmosh]

Come on, you can't come all this way and not do Cerebral Hood and Ghostly Visage.

[Thurbane]

Agree with LA -0* for Zodar.

I'd be happy to see symbionts.

[danielxcutter]

I like the yurian/crabman, but I'm not too keen on the 3rd edition name and artwork. I kind of like this artwork:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/ac/Crabman2e.gif/revision/latest?cb=20151118033456
I agree with LA +0 for the yurian: it's good enough, and I'd like to try one sometime; but it's nothing particularly exciting, mechanics-wise.

The option to have one extra-big claw is unique. Potentially having 2 natural attacks with the same name, but different damage values, raises some mechanical questions for me. Like, do you have to treat the big claw and small claw as separate natural weapons? Or do they still count as two of a pair? Maybe the big claw is primary, and the small claw as secondary? Would "Improved Natural Attack (claw)" increase the big one to 2d6 and the little one to 1d8? Or, would you have to take "Improved Natural Attack (big claw)" and "Improved Natural Attack (small claw)" as separate feats? Admittedly minor questions, but they still bother me a bit.

---

The zodar is just lame: I don't really have much to say about it, other than LA -0* for the zodar.

Pssst, image doesn’t work.

[Thurbane]

Pssst, image doesn’t work.

Does for me?

[danielxcutter]

Well that's weird. It didn't work on mobile for me, at least. Does now on laptop though.

[liquidformat]

-0* for Zodar, also isn't that the name of a power rangers bad guy?

Put me down for the symbionts as well, also have we decided on the next book? I am still voting for DMGII!

[danielxcutter]

-0* for Zodar, also isn't that the name of a power rangers bad guy?

Put me down for the symbionts as well, also have we decided on the next book? I am still voting for DMGII!

Google says no apparently.

[liquidformat]

Google says no apparently.

Hmm guess I was thinking Zordon? Anyways feel like Zodar was used in some cartoon or show...

[Inevitability]

Hmm guess I was thinking Zordon? Anyways feel like Zodar was used in some cartoon or show...

I'm reminded of Zardoz, myself.

[unseenmage]

Hm, guess the real lesson here is that 'Z' names are evil?

[danielxcutter]

Hm, guess the real lesson here is that 'Z' names are evil?

Zordon was a good guy.

[Inevitability]

Symbionts (1)

Because the optimal party consists of four abominable organs fused to the one humanoid PC.

A general overview of symbiont mechanics: they have an Ego score, which is calculated in a roundabout way mostly related to mental stats. If the host goes against the symbiont's desires, the host has to make a DC (ego score) Will save or be controlled by their symbiont for a while. Given the obvious issues that arise with one PC controlling another fulltime, I suggest that DMs only allow symbiont-host pairs that agree on most important matters.

Further rules: Symbionts act on their host's turn in combat (good, as most have terrible dexterity), they can be targeted independently unless located inside the body, they are technically vulnerable to the 'natural ones damage equipment' rule but nobody uses that, and they get a free Share Spells effect that bypasses type restrictions to boot.

With that out of the way, let's take a look at the symbionts themselves!


Cerebral Hood

A 2 RHD tiny aberration, with a lowish fly speed, a weak tail slap as its sole natural weapon, great mental stats, and poor physical ones. It also gets Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, which seems wasted on a creature that's going to be acting on its host's turn anyway.

The hood's own attacks are a hilariously terrible Engulf (which, amusingly, works on medium-sized and smaller creatures, implying it can attach to being smaller than itself), and a reasonable Mind Blast that gets stronger when attached to a host (in which case it stuns for 1d4 turns). Its only downside is dealing a point of Intelligence damage to the host every time it's used, which is mitigatable with the right recovery magic or simple immunity.

The hood can communicate telepathically and has blindsight (which it shares with its hosts in exchange for blinding them). It also provides its host with immunity to gases, inhaled poisons, and starvation and dehydration (presuming that the cerebral hood consumes a point of their intelligence each day). Note that this regular consumption simply manifests as a persistent -1 penalty, but it also takes up all natural healing capacity (meaning that those points lost to Mind Blast will need healing eventually).


I could see an intelligence-based caster working here: 2 RHD aren't too bad and attaching yourself to a meatshield (or even better, a bulky wis-based support caster) bestows some pretty amazing defenses. Getting to fire off Mind Blasts is great, especially because you can switch between hosts to let them recover their Intelligence some. Between Mind Blast spam, solid natural stats, useful utility abilities and amazing defenses, I'm going to assign +1 for now (although I think a case is to be made for +0). Do discuss!

[Efrate]

+1 Flight blindsight and a bunch of other good stuff is great. Would gladly take that 3 level prc on nearly anything that needed it. Standard mitigation issues arise but that's a feat away to fix for anyone you want to glomp onto.

[danielxcutter]

Considering most of these can't, y'know, move, shouldn't they all have asterisks?

[Remuko]

'natural ones damage equipment' rule

wait what? ive never heard of this rule!? :O how did I miss this? id probably not use it, as you said, but i was unaware it existed!

[Falontani]

Further rules: Symbionts act on their host's turn in combat (good, as most have terrible dexterity), they can be targeted independently unless located inside the body, they are technically vulnerable to the 'natural ones damage equipment' rule but nobody uses that, and they get a free Share Spells effect that bypasses type restrictions to boot.

Quick thing: unlike the familiar Share Spells (which the feature works off of) this one works both ways. So the host can cast personal spells and share regular duration spells with the symbiont, but the symbiont can do the same thing to the host.

Considering most of these can't, y'know, move, shouldn't they all have asterisks?
Most of them can move a little bit. And having a fly speed at all qualifies for Air Heritage for +30 ft to their speed.

[Dimers]

wait what? ive never heard of this rule!? :O how did I miss this? id probably not use it, as you said, but i was unaware it existed!

It's legacy ... the same concept was in 2e AD&D. Thankfully 4e and 5e both dropped it.

[Dalmosh]

Psion (Telepath) levels allow it to develop a suite of abilities all about mentally suppressing, dominating and overpowering weak-willed hosts, and it can overpower a lot of potential Hosts with the initial Mind Blast.

There's nothing confining an optimised one to using cooperative PCs, because it can dominate animals, and meatshield barbarians and control them with reasonable reliability, especially if it finds a way to drain its target's Wisdom. Sparing use of Psionic Charm means it will rarely even cause personality conflicts with the Host.

Its better thought of along the lines of Puppetmaster or Intellect Devourer - but more limited to what it can attach to.
I think that's worth 3 levels
+1

[Thurbane]

Cerebral Hood


Tiny Aberration (Symbiont)
2 RHD (d8 hp, medium BAB, once good save, 2 skill points/"level")
Speed 5 ft, fly 20 ft (good).
+2 natural AC
Tail slap 1d4.
Engulf: try to wrap around a medium creatures head, but with a really poor grapple modifier. Usually used only on stunned opponents.
Mind Blast: at will save or stun attack. Gets stronger and larger area if it has a host. Host suffers 1 Int damage for each use.
Mind Feeding: deals 1 point of Int damage to host each day.
Blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft: decent senses, espcially once you take the Mindsight feat.
Mouth tube: host no longer needs to eat or breathe. Also immune to gasses, dehydration and starvation.
Symbiont traits:
Telepathy 100 ft: nice.
Str -8, Dex -6, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha +4: net -2. I mean admittedly, you're probably not going to be relying on physical stats anyway, apart from Con.
Small-ish but useful skill list. +4 bonus on Hide checks.

Very non-standard body type, no limbs or manipulative digits, and don't speak (although they have telepathy, so not such a hindrance).

Honestly, it's going to be hard to rate symbionts, because I just can't see a progression for most of them. They are more like intelligent items than creatures, in most aspects. I guess a psionic class would work - although my knowledge of psionics is minimal. At will mind blast is neat, and if your host has some source of healing Int damage (Binder etc.) you can spam it every round.

I'll tentatively agree with LA +1.

P.S. 100% will be equipping a future Binder bad guy with one of these in my game.

[Morphic tide]

I concur with LA +1, given the varieties of unholy pain you end up making of so much of character design assumption. Technically speaking, you should have your own item slots to load up on various things somewhere, and since you're physically a piece of equipment, you can put literally everything into utilities, beyond your mental score(s) of choice. When it comes to progression, the Symbionts can use Psionics without issue, most of Warlock, at least some Incarnate builds, probably Artificer in theory, and there's probably some way to finagle a functional Bard to use the high Int and Cha scores at the higher levels.

[Remuko]

It's legacy ... the same concept was in 2e AD&D. Thankfully 4e and 5e both dropped it.

where in the rules is it? i joined near the start of 3.0 and switched to 3.5 when that came out and despite my many readings of the 3.0 and 3.5 rules over the years i dont recall ever seeing it!

[Dimers]

where in the rules is it? i joined near the start of 3.0 and switched to 3.5 when that came out and despite my many readings of the 3.0 and 3.5 rules over the years i dont recall ever seeing it!

SRD, under "Items surviving after a saving throw" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) or PHB page 150, same subheader.

[Remuko]

SRD, under "Items surviving after a saving throw" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) or PHB page 150, same subheader.

ah yes i think i knew this. i was interpretting the vague "natural 1s damage equipment rule" as something wildly different than what it actually is. I was thinking "you rolled a nat 1 on your attack roll, your sword is now damaged" instead of thinking of saving throws against spells.

[Storyteller_Arc]

Hey Inevitability, do you think you could update your Signature so that it links to the right thread? Its currently four threads behind, as it links to VI instead of IX.

Also, I think everyone else has said things well enough, but +1 for the Symbotie seems reasonable to me.

[Inevitability]

Hey Inevitability, do you think you could update your Signature so that it links to the right thread? Its currently four threads behind, as it links to VI instead of IX.

Also, I think everyone else has said things well enough, but +1 for the Symbotie seems reasonable to me.

Ah yes, thanks for reminding me of that.

[Inevitability]

Cerebral Symbionts, Continued

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/eberron/images/8/8e/50182.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/340?cb=20190227033518

Two more symbionts are placed in the 'cerebral' category: the Mind Leech and the Psionic Sinew. Let's see how playable they are?


Mind Leech

The Mind Leech is one weird critter. It has a single Aberration RHD, great mental stats and terrible physical ones, Fine size, and a listed speed of one foot. Interestingly, this is allowed rules-wise: it simply means that the leech cannot take move actions and must instead spend a full-round action to move five feet. It also gets Alertness and Spell Penetration as bonus feats.

Without a host, the mind leech is near helpless. It can't move normally, its sole special ability is At-Will Detect Thoughts, and its only attack is a bite that deals zero damage (and, in fact, doesn't even seem to be perceptible). Fortunately, it's still a symbiont, and if its bite hits it can immediately burrow into the target's nervous system and enjoy some good hostpitality.

With a host, the leech gains the ability to project Mind Blasts (which damage the host for one point of intelligence damage), communicate telepathically with its host, and cast Charm Monster, Dominate Person, and Suggestion at-will. The latter abilities all deal intelligence damage (2 for Dominate Person, 1 for the others).

The leech is tricky to rate. As intended, its access to powerful magic is limited by the host's intelligence score, and it is 'merely' an extremely potent psion chassis that's untargetable and can occasionally nuke an encounter. Once the party picks up a Wand of Lesser Restoration, finds an immune host, or even just dominates a bunch of disposable hosts in a row, that restriction obviously goes right out of the window.

For the caster chassis alone, I'm tempted to give +1 (or even +2). With at-will Dominate Person being a very attainable option, I don't think +3 is crazy as far as LAs go. The mind leech offers casters perfect defenses, solid stats, and free domination fodder, and making it give up a couple levels for that is more than balanced.


Psionic Sinew

Another Tiny symbiont, again with 2 RHD. Interestingly, it has to be voluntarily attached, which eliminates some 'capture meatshield, bleed dry for power, abandon' strategies that the other two symbionts do have access to.

The sinew surprisingly has reasonable strength and constitution, terrible dexterity, and bad mental stats. As it has zero natural attacks and should always be attached to a host, that's not a great stat spread. It also has +4 armor AC from an always-on Inertial Armor effect, as well as Blindsight.

Attachment itself is a reasonably solid deal for the host, who gets +4 strength, the same inertial armor bonus, and the ability to get 1d12 damage bear claws for three hours at the cost of one point of dexterity (it can also get 3 temporary HP for the same cost but that's a terrible deal). Depending on how spread-out combat encounters are, this might very well mean that the sinew isn't consuming more dexterity than a character can naturally heal.

What direction to take this creature in, though? Its intelligence and wisdom are bad, it cannot speak, and it lacks the ability to battle normally. I guess the sinew would be okay as a charisma-based caster that can also buff one of your beatsticks a bit, but at 2 RHD that shouldn't require an additional LA. +0 LA for now.

[Prime32]

So... the psionic sinew's claws are in kind of a weird place. It's a 3.5 spell-like ability which references a 3.0 psionic power for its effect. And in 3.0 psionics, natural weapons granted by powers are wielded like manufactured weapons (iterative attacks, TWF, but no making natural attacks in addition to your normal attack routine). The 3.5 equivalent of claws of the bear is claws of the beast (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm), but it never grants a d12 damage die. If it were converted to the 3.5 power, and its missing ML was taken to be equal to character level, it would improve playability a bit, since the claws start weak but continue to grow stronger even as the +4 enhancement bonus to Strength gets outpaced.

Its "Vigor (Sp)" ability also appears to be modelled on a 3.0 vigor power (grants 3 temp HP/ML), though unlike "Claws of the Bear (Sp)" it doesn't explicitly reference that power. And since the claws are a 2nd-level power, it couldn't have an ML of 1 anyway. Again, the 3.5 version of vigor has a completely different formula (5 temp HP, +5 per pp spent on augments).

EDIT: Oh, and of course it doesn't have the psionic subtype either.

[Aniikinis]

Cerebral Hood deserves a +2. But since I don't think it'd be worth it starting at ecl 5 and alright at ecl 4, I'm giving it a +1.

Honestly, I can think of at least 6 different ways I could build this guy and run through a campaign with him. Especially since stealth would be off the charts and I could nab a commoner or guard as a body to ride on, using my Ego score to force them to do what I wish. Psionic, Warlock, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Healer(only usually lawful evil), and quite a few others could be easily built on this guy since you could theoretically use your mountwearer for the items needed, though you won't be using them directly.

And if the body dies? Just have a teammate scoop you up and snatch someone for you to attach to.

[EDIT] I didn't see the other two when I posted. Sinew is +0 in my opinion, since if it wasn't being protected by a beatstick it'd be completely worthless as an option. The leech on the other hand is worth +3 if not higher. I'm well aware of the power this sort of creature can hold given the amount of puppeteers and parasites I've played/used.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Just want to pop in to say I'm enjoying looking at the symbionts, and the ratings seem good to me. Mind leeches are funky as hell.

[Efrate]

I think +3 and +0.

Fine size and at will dominate person is amazing. Also granting yourself total cover nearly always. A listed speed means any enhancement boosts will work. Have a thrall activate one or eat a barbarian level to fix it. I could see a +2* because infinite-ish minions.

The second is fine...just meh.

[Dalmosh]

Wouldn't Mind Leech need the Run feat in order to move a square as a full-round action?

[InvisibleBison]

Wouldn't Mind Leech need the Run feat in order to move a square as a full-round action?

It might. Inevitability was probably thinking of the minimum movement rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#specialMovementRul es), but I'm not sure that applies to a creature whose unpenalized speed is too slow to actually move.

[Thurbane]

Not sure how I feel about rating creatures with little or no ability to move unless attached to a creature. I think it's worth an asterisk. The cerebral hood had a fly speed of 20, at least.

I'll vote +3* and -0 respectively.

Rating symbionts is harder than I thought.

[Debatra]

I only partly agree. The Sinew should definitely get an asterisk for that since it needs a willing host, but the Mind Leech has a much easier time of things once it can get over the initial hurdle. And that can be done fairly easily by letting it ride on the party beatstick until it can dominate something.

I'll say +3 and -0* for now.

[Morphic tide]

Hmm... Mind Leech is a bit bothersome to properly crunch out, given the absurdity that gets brought to bare when it properly gets rolling. To actually put some numbers to this, an Intelligence or Charisma based Manifester will get 1.5 PP per Manifester Level, alongside +3 save DC. On the power point front, the LA is a big hit because the full manifesters always get more PP from each level as you go up. 2-4-5-6-8-10-11-12 and on. At Psion 1 with 18+6 vs. 16 Intelligence to assume leveraging the total non-physicality, Practiced Manifester gives you 2+14 PP to an actual Psion 4's 17+6, and it only goes downhill from there.

On save DCs, you have PL+6 vs. PL+3, with one level lower in maximum Power level but that doesn't mean that much to Psionics because of the innate scalability of a lot of the Powers you roll saves on anyways. At ECL 5, to paper over the annoyance I feel at various unused PP caps, Demoralize at 5PP has a save DC of 20 for the Mind Leech versus the presumably-human Psion's DC of 16, inflicting Shaken on enemies with an Intelligence score that fail a Will save. A reasonable poor Will save for a single-entity encounter would be +2 at this point, giving the Mind Leech a 90% chance to successfully inflict the various -2 penalties, against the regular Psion's 70% chance, if I have the way saving throws is correct (oddly enough, the SRD doesn't seem to actually list whether it's the number to match, or the number to exceed)

Where I come to want LA +4, without a catch, is that this Mind Leech can throw out 1 PP Demoralize for DC 18 from the very start, giving +2 DC on a fifth the cost. Sure, you're losing 10 feet of radius... But you can just use it again to catch whoever you missed the first time. Four times as much, in fact. Being two power levels behind for shenanigans isn't that big a downside when you're saving at least 6PP on every Power you'd augment that much for DC purposes and completely shutting off any concern of self-defense investment.

As for Psionic Sinew, my own take is LA +1 without the asterisk. Yes, I think this thing is worth ECL 3. Because you make a very incredibly powerful Psychic Warrior. Yes, you have a Wisdom penalty. But you never have to manifest Natural Attack granters, and can plant yourself on somebody else while you spend literally every action on a buff. This is massive. I really, really think that ECL 3 should be the bare minimum for the Symbionts because of the way they utterly brick the expectations when you make them a PC. Even setting aside the ultimate cheese of auto-Twin on Bestow Power massively simplifying the logistics of the loop when both people are using it, you still reliably end up with unbelievable stupidity with the slightest effort to leverage it.

[Falontani]

I just want to throw 2 cp into the ring about the different symbionts.
They can use the many different feats/class features to gain a host. Wild cohort is cheap. Psycrystal affinity is usually a bare minimum. But I can see druids and even paladins. A level of wizard gives a familiar, a cohort, or a skeleton. Death Master also gives a skeleton. That's without looking at hunting down or using wbl to obtain a relatively simple host.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno about some of those - I'm not sure if undead can even be hosts and I'm pretty sure that most tables don't let Leadership be a thing - but Wild Cohort should usually be okay.

[Falontani]

I dunno about some of those - I'm not sure if undead can even be hosts and I'm pretty sure that most tables don't let Leadership be a thing - but Wild Cohort should usually be okay.

Most of my tables allow Leadership; but I was talking about the Enchanter Wizard that trades familiar for a cohort. Nothing in the Symbiont states that Undead can't be a host, although I can definitely see requiring the host be able to suffer the stat damage, which for mental stats intelligent undead still work.

[Thurbane]

I just want to throw 2 cp into the ring about the different symbionts.
They can use the many different feats/class features to gain a host. Wild cohort is cheap. Psycrystal affinity is usually a bare minimum. But I can see druids and even paladins. A level of wizard gives a familiar, a cohort, or a skeleton. Death Master also gives a skeleton. That's without looking at hunting down or using wbl to obtain a relatively simple host.

The issue with Wild Cohort, for these symbionts in particular, is that they don't have a whole lot of Int to fuel their abilities.

Also, Wild Cohort is annoying silent on what happens if the animal dies. A lot of DMs rule you can replace it the same way you replace an Animal Companion, but the feat doesn't actually state how or if that works.

[Sutr]

+3 and agreeing with Morphic Tides +1.

[Inevitability]

It might. Inevitability was probably thinking of the minimum movement rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#specialMovementRul es), but I'm not sure that applies to a creature whose unpenalized speed is too slow to actually move.

That was the rule yes, and it seems to fairly unambiguously allow for 5-ft.-movement steps for any creature to me.


Not sure how I feel about rating creatures with little or no ability to move unless attached to a creature. I think it's worth an asterisk. The cerebral hood had a fly speed of 20, at least.

I'll vote +3* and -0 respectively.

Rating symbionts is harder than I thought.


I only partly agree. The Sinew should definitely get an asterisk for that since it needs a willing host, but the Mind Leech has a much easier time of things once it can get over the initial hurdle. And that can be done fairly easily by letting it ride on the party beatstick until it can dominate something.

I'll say +3 and -0* for now.

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove the problem!

Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. A shadow can't be used in any campaign that involves interaction with humanoids. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

It's a subjective distinction, I admit. But it's not subjective to say that 'cannot move around very quickly unless using its inbuilt ability to override that' isn't on the same level as 'cannot go anywhere ever'. For that reason, I don't think any of these monsters is deserving of an asterisk.

[Thurbane]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.

I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

[Debatra]

Considering Dryad was one of his listed examples of a thing that got an asterisk... :smalltongue:

But yes, if we're treating the 1ft movement as at least allowing a square, then I'd go with +3 and -0.

[ixrisor]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.
I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

The thing about requiring a host is - your entire party are viable hosts, as is anything you can scrounge up. A dog or pony bought with your starting equipment? Sure. That barkeeper who gave your party watered down beer? Why not? So long as one other member of the party trusts you, or you can find anything to ride on, you’re fine.

[Inevitability]

Oh, fair enough. Didn't Dryad and Fossergrim have asterisks though? I thought being tied to a location would be a similar type of limitation to requiring a host.

I take your point - maybe -0 from me, then, for creatures that can't really function without a host?

I view 'symbionts need a host' as something roughly akin to 'wizards need a component pouch'. Yes, you lose a significant chunk of power and versatility without, and realistically sometimes you won't have access to it, but those circumstances are rare, you perform at a decent level even when unattached (psion powers don't care how many fingers you have), and fixing the issue is often a matter of minutes.

Also, votes!

Mind leech:
+4: Morphic
+3: Anii, Efrate, Thurbane, Debatra, Sutr

Psionic Sinew:
+1: Morphic, Sutr
+0: Anii, Efrate
-0: Thurbane, Debatra

Near-unanimous +3 votes for the mind leech, a three-way tie resulting in +0 for the sinew.

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Fiendish Familiar

You're probably expecting a weird dog or cat, but no, it's a horrifying face that grafts itself to your flesh.

A brief note: fiendish symbionts come with a number of extra drawbacks. They slowly consume the wisdom of good-aligned hosts and drive them to evil in the process. They also impose severe social penalties while interacting with non-evil NPCs, even when those don't know about the symbiont. These shouldn't be an issue with the right host, but are worth taking into account nonetheless.

The fiendish familiar is Diminutive, with approximately zero positive traits while unattached. It has a small intelligence boost (all other stats are negative or neutral) and gives any spellcasting host extra bonuses. If the host is any kind of caster, they obtain bonus spells as if their relevant stat was two points higher (which can matter quite a bit: a stat of 18 gets increased to 20, meaning early-game casters get an extra level 1 spell).

Additionally, wizard familiars can learn an additional spell whenever they access a new spell level with a familiar attached. There's probably a loophole here involving level drain and gain, but 1. that loophole might already exist for regular wizards and 2. it's not like wizards were lacking ways to learn new spells.

What LA to assign? The fiendish familiar's chassis is fine for a caster: spell-sharing, targeting protection, and the intelligence boost are all useful. In a party with another spellcaster, it additionally serves as a minor power booster, who unlike many other symbionts doesn't harm their host. That said, +0 LA should probably be fine: slightly buffing a friendly caster is less powerful than stat boosts or a free feat, and for optimal utilization you'd need to double down on arcane casters. I would definitely consider a fiendish familiar as my character, but I wouldn't automatically take it over a grey elf or human.

That said, the inability to change hosts or survive if the initial one dies makes an asterisk fitting here, and DMs should allow for a way to persist after such an occasion (granting it limited independence, or allowing some kind of 'mundane' grafting to transplant the familiar, at the very least).

[danielxcutter]

Ignoring the actual LA for now, I find the name of this one rather ironic considering that you can get an actual fiendish familiar(as in a familiar with the fiendish template) already. In Core.

Also I forget, do these help Sorcerers?

[Efrate]

+0. Its meh.

[Thurbane]

I view 'symbionts need a host' as something roughly akin to 'wizards need a component pouch'. Yes, you lose a significant chunk of power and versatility without, and realistically sometimes you won't have access to it, but those circumstances are rare, you perform at a decent level even when unattached (psion powers don't care how many fingers you have), and fixing the issue is often a matter of minutes.

I take your point, but acquiring and maintaining a 5gp easily replaceable item vs. an entire separate entity are a little different for me.

Anyhow, happy to agree to disagree. :smallsmile:


Also I forget, do these help Sorcerers?

Only fluff-wise. They can act as a "source" for your new spells known per level. You know, the ones that you get automatically anyway.

The do provide a virtual +2 to your casting stat, though. Wizards definitely get better use from them. Funnily enough, it specifically calls out Wizards, so technically other arcane casters with spell books don't get the same benefit.

On to the LA...

Fiendish Familiar: no move speed, no attacks, 60 ft darkvision, telepathy (no range listed?), Str -8, Dex -6, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha -4. No digits or any other physcial means of interacting with anything; at least they can speak. I have no issues calling this LA -0. IMHO, they are about as playable as a knowstone.

[danielxcutter]

Isn’t “needs a host” more like “water in an aquatic campaign”?

[Thurbane]

Isn’t “needs a host” more like “water in an aquatic campaign”?

Well, if a creature is completely reliant on water to function, then yes. Again, I look at the Dryad example. Sure, there are ways to get around your reliance on your tree, but it was considered noteworthy enough for an asterisk in that case.

I'm happy to roll with majority opinion, so I didn't worry about an asterisk in my last rating - but I personally consider completely and utter reliance on another being in order to function noteworthy. I mean in most cases, a symbiont should be OK to use another PC as a ride, or an animal companion or similar.

Fiendish Familiar, in particular, should have no issues convincing the party wizard or other caster to host it, for mutual benefits. The ones that drain ability scores, though, may be more of an issue.

[Dalmosh]

Even the Psionic Sinew can move by itself, and can theoretically unattach itself from a dead host and crawl away by itself. It can readily attach to willing party members if it needs to, or try to convince NPCs to accept it.

This one explicitly needs to be grafted on to the host by a specially trained fiend (or a fleshwarper, or "gifted" by a Fiend of Corruption) in order to attach to a host. If it's host dies it's stuck to a corpse with no way to free itself. I don't think that's sensibly playable.

+0*

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Gutworm

https://therafim.wikidot.com/local--resized-images/the-shadow-over-riversmouth/Gutworm.jpg/medium.jpg

The gutworm manages to be both less practical and more disgusting than any of the previous symbionts. It's a 2-feet worm that freely swims through its host's bowels (somehow without causing the mother of all intestinal blockages).

It has no natural weapons and pretty terrible stats (constitution gets +2, everything else is neutral or negative). A gutworm host must consume twice as much food and gets penalties on a bunch of long-term endurance activities. The gutworm's benefits include a +2 constitution bonus, the ability to neutralize poisons once per day, and the ability to induce Rage in its host at-will.

Though these abilities are pretty cool, being confined to someone's intestines is pretty limiting, and essentially shoehorn the gutworm into being some kind of wisdom-based fulltime buffer, and even if it commits to that role a human will probably have been a better choice (getting to affect anything other than one party member beats Rage).

On top of that, there's the lack of methods to transplant gutworms between hosts (with anything I can think of being both extremely gross and extremely impractical) and no-save instakill vulnerability to Remove Disease. In that light, I think -0* LA is the only fitting option here: the gutworm is not 'playable' in any practical sense, and even with accommodations made it'll still be very bad.

[Efrate]

-0* When you have a low level spell that's instagibs you no save it's not practical. Plus it does not really have a clear path.

[Falontani]

I have a stupid Windrider silverwood arcanist build that would hilarious to use with this, but....
-0 my first ever vote.

[Thurbane]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

[unseenmage]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

Should be noted that there are creatures whose bowels can be found on their outside. Zombies could easily and mohrg explicitly do.

[danielxcutter]

Hangry Tapeworm: 5 ft move, no natural attacks, Darkvision 60 ft (enjoy your view from inside someone's bowels); +2 to host Con; let host rage as a 1st level Barbarian at will, no fatigue afterwards (could be really nice for the right rage-based build); killed by Remove Disease; host needs to eat more; host gets some endurance related penalties; Neutralize Poison on host 1/day; no limbs; doesn't speak; Str -6, Dex -6, Con +2, Int -6, Cha -4.

More than happy to agree with LA -0* here. No clear progression path, and will encounter difficulties as a caster (no hands, and may not be able to speak verbal components, depending on your reading of their fluff). Maybe psionics? As noted, with no line of effect, may be limited to buffing your host.

Could be quite beneficial for the right host, though. If you have abilities that only activate while raging, you have an unlimited source. The drawbacks of this symbiont are relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.


Hangry Tapeworm

*hysterical giggles*

[Rockphed]

*hysterical giggles*

Having just read all eight threads, thurbane's breakdowns are one of the best parts of this thread.

[Falontani]

Having just read all eight threads, thurbane's breakdowns are one of the best parts of this thread.

That and Inevitability's Inevitable puns. Not the creature, the fact that he will do them. 100% agreed.

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Soul Tick

Most of the strange traits of this tick shouldn't come as a surprise: Fine size, abysmal speed, and a weak bite attack that does nothing but attach it to a host. The tick has a respectable stat array, with large bonuses to Dexterity and Intelligence, a small Charisma penalty, and terrible Strength: not bad for an arcane caster (or psion) of some kind.

The tick's effects on its host are worth mentioning: it causes a permanent -1 constitution reduction (with the option to overfeed and deal more damage, but that's rather pointless), automatically Empowers all Death, Evil, and negative energy spells (note that a number of metamagic feats can turn any spell into a valid target, often with only 1 or 2 level increases in addition to their regular effects), and potentially prevents Good, Chaos, and positive energy spells from working.

Additionally, the soul tick shrouds itself and its host in a Protection from Good and Chaos aura, which is extremely useful for all the reasons that Protection is useful. Finally, it makes its host a valid target for evil-targeting spells like Holy Smite.

The soul tick makes for a reasonable caster, and while its effects on a host are somewhat of a mixed bag, it can definitely be useful in the right party. Free Protection is surprisingly strong, so are shared spells, and the tick can switch hosts more easily than some other symbionts (cough gutworm cough). +1 LA should be fine.

[Thurbane]

Soul tick: fine outsider, 1 RHD; 5 ft speed; non-damaging bite; darkvision 60 ft; telepathy (again, no range listed - is it with the host only?); attach on a bite; drain 1 point of Con/day, or 1d4 to punish the host; empower the hosts spells with the death or evil desciptor, or that use negative energy; impede magic with the chaos or good descriptor, or that use positive energy; constant protection from good or chaos; host is vulnerable to holy attacks as if it were evil; Str -10, Dex +6, Int +4, Cha -2. The don't speak, but understand Infernal. No manipulative digits. Could it use a mouth-pick weapon?

I'll grudgingly give this one an LA +0. Again, I'm guessing some kind of psionic class would be the best progression; or maybe Warlock or DFA?

Their Enhance Magic ability would work well for a caster with the Corrupt Spell feat, or a Diabolist. Even for someone like a Dread Necro.

[edit] Just double checked; telpathy is with host only:


Telepathy (Su): A fiendish symbiont can communicate telepathically with its host creature, if the host has a language.

[danielxcutter]

Huh isn’t continuous Protection from [Alignment] essentially Mind Blank-lite? Not quite as comprehensive against mind-affecting spells and doesn’t protect against scrying at all, but since it totally shut downs enemy compulsions and those tend to be the most devastating in that category by far...

[Blue Jay]

I agree with LA +0 for the soul tick. Honestly, with how weird the symbionts are, I thought a symbiont PC would create an interesting addition to a party, but the mechanics on these just aren't as interesting as I originally thought: it seems like just refluffing a standard-race character would be just as interesting as using one of these (unless you really want to do the host-switching thing a lot)

[Sutr]

Deciding not to vote, but how is a creature that shares spells with another pc not worth LA?

[danielxcutter]

Deciding not to vote, but how is a creature that shares spells with another pc not worth LA?

Because there’s a limit as to how much power such spells can give, I presume.

I mean I think there’s a cheese build for that but still.

[Morphic tide]

I'll stick to my opinion of the spell-sharing giving a minimum "base load" of ECL 3, and think the Soul Tick still fits for this even as they mess with healing. As explained previously about save bonuses and Psionics, ability score bonuses and allowance to totally focus on Manifesting ability will allow for the scaling save-based Powers to be considerably cheaper for improved effect, so a Telepath or Egoist will generally last longer if they're leveraging their save bonuses, and physically are a free HP bank for Empathic Transfer and Share Pain in most situations to reduce PP expenditure on Body Adjustment, which is also copied on the host.

[Efrate]

Fractional HD become full HD with class levels right? This is a very good psion base. Size plus just partial cover and protection gives you a base AC of at least 22 when attached. At low levels that's pretty obscene. If it had blindsight and/or the capability of speech (pearl of speech maybe work? it has a mouth.) I would make this a snap +3 or more. Its very good as a psion. I still do not think I could justify anything less than a +2. I wish we had more information about its telepathy. It is somewhat pigeonholed into a very high tier class, but it can be VERY good and near untouchable as said class. just attach with tour head poking above an ear and you can very easily break near any LoE by having host turn head slightly to the side.

[Blue Jay]

Well, the views on the soul tick are apparently quite disparate, so I want to revisit my vote. I don't really see it as very powerful. Sure, it's got a +4 to Int and it's Fine size, which make for a nice psion; and you can make warlock or DFA work (though it's not necessarily good for that purpose). But, it's really dependent on a host for mobility and for doing other mundane tasks like opening doors and carrying things. Plus, I think a host is always going to be a major liability, except where you do something like use a Leadership cohort as your host (but that has more to do with Leadership being an overpowered feat than with the power of the soul tick in particular). And I don't really know how its body slots for magic items will play out.

I guess it's not really a net-zero ability bundle, so I suppose I should vote for LA +1 or something, but I'm just not sure. I certainly wouldn't go higher than that.

[Inevitability]

Votes on the hell tick:

+0: 1 vote
+1: 1 vote
+2: 2 votes

Morphic's vote was a bit unclear but I think +1 is a fair compromise here, will update the entry.

[Inevitability]

Fiendish Symbiont, Ghostly Visage

https://i.imgur.com/93AWeyT.jpg

You might be aware of these monsters if you've ever played a Dread Necromancer, or if your DM opened the Fiend Folio from the wrong side. Essentially, it's a small incorporeal spirit that can bond with other creatures, providing them with some very cool abilities.

Unlike most other symbionts, the ghostly visage is not dead weight without a host. It can't deal damage, but it has incorporeality, a perfect fly speed, solid Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma bonuses, bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate, and free Alertness, meaning that it makes for an interesting skillmonkey/scout.

By touching a corporeal creature (who's allowed a Will save to resist), the visage can meld with it. It's unclear to what extent it remains a separate creature, but I'd rule that it's both autonomous and lacking line of effect to anything, similarly to the gutworm. Unlike the gutworm, the visage can manifest on its host's body as a fleshy-looking incorporeal mask (which its host can see through fine), allowing it to act normally, and most notably enabling its Gaze of Terror (an AoE paralyzing gaze that doesn't grant immunity on saves and can be used at-will). Additionally, the visage's host gets immunity to Mind-Affecting effects.

The visage is a tiny incorporeal caster chassis that can also spread status, disappear into a party member when necessary, and grant said party member a very useful immunity. I think +2 LA is the very minimum here, and +3 might be more appropriate. For now, I'll play it safe and go with the second option.

[liquidformat]

so no STR or Con score Dex +4, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha +6 net 8, no turn res is an issue and I assume possessing someone has no effect on your ability to be turned since didn't see anything otherwise. With only 1 rhd seems like a great arcane caster choice better on cha based casters but still very good on int based ones too though not having hands might be an issue... Still on the fence about LA will hold off to see others thoughts first.

[Efrate]

+3 easy. Incorporealness alone is worth at least +1, stats are enough for another +1, and the SoL no immunity on success gaze is at least another.

[liquidformat]

+3 easy. Incorporealness alone is worth at least +1, stats are enough for another +1, and the SoL no immunity on success gaze is at least another.

I am honestly not convinced the gaze attack is worth an LA heck past level 5 I think it is trash and wouldn't be even worth mentioning if it weren't a free action to use. The base save is 13 and it is unclear if that is just 13 or 10+cha mod either well it isn't going to age well.

[Thurbane]

♫ Aaah, we fade to grey (fade to grey) ♫

This one's worth a full breakdown IMHO:


Tiny Undead (Incorporeal, Symbiont).
1 RHD, which will be swapped out for class levels.
Fly 10 ft (perfect).
Darkvision 60 ft.
Gaze of terror: 30 ft gaze attack, save or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. Not called out as mind affecting or a fear effect, but seems like it would be. Very powerful at will attack. The DC is low, but I can't help but feel it should be tied to HD; since the creature is listed as having no advancement, they seem to have just listed a static number. Even with a low DC, a lot of enemies have poor will saves, and everyone rolls a 1 at some point.
Incorporeal subtype: a lot of benefits, mainly defensive, but also some drawbacks.
Incorporeal touch: which seems to only be used to meld.
Meld: Disappear into a host.
Mind shielding: the host gets pseudo Mind Blank. Nice.
Undead traits: all the usual great immunities, and some drawbacks.
Visage: peek out from your host.
Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int +2, Wis -2, Cha +6: net +10, with two non-abilities.
Alertness as a bonus feat: not a great feat, but a bonus feat is a bonus feat, and it is a pretty common req for a number of things.

No manipulative digits to speak of. They can speak. Being incorporeal has some great benefits, but also has some drawbacks, primarily gear related, and interacting with the physical world - some of which is ameliorated by having a host, I guess.

This would definitely be the strongest of the symbionts here, IMHO. As pointed out, quite capable of acting independently. An incorporeal form without limbs or digits will have it's share of problems (hard imagining body slots for this guy), but you should have no major issues progressing as a caster, psionic type, DFA, Warlock or similar.

I'll go along with LA +3 for now, but I could also see +2.

[Falontani]

Gaze of Terror is a Supernatural ability.


Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.
The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

Charisma is the only ability score that would allow the DC to reach 13 based on the creature, thus it is 10 +1/2 HD + cha mod. A scaling DC on a powerful AoE ability. The Meld ability follows a similar pattern.
Next up, it seems like it qualifies as a Gaze Attack. Meaning all Gaze rules and feats can apply. The ability causes Paralysis, which may mean that it qualifies as a paralyzing attack (I certainly would allow it). So the following feats all apply to this creature's spammable gaze attack:
Ability Focus: Paralysis, Ability Focus: Gaze (these two probably don't stack with each other)
Irresistible Gaze, Narrowed Gaze, Piercing Gaze
Improved Paralysis, Contagious Paralysis

So we can reach a DC 16 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod. We can use it as a standard action against a targeted creature to force an additional save. If a creature fails its save then they become an additional vector for the paralysis.
Finally we can use Sudden Ability Focus, Extend Supernatural Ability, and Widen Supernatural Ability to further increase the effects, albeit this is expensive as they are once/day each.

Finally this ability is Fear affect (and probably mind affecting). So immunity will be... easy to find. But Dread Witch is a natural progression for the creature if you can enter (the only way for this creature to be feared is via Turn Undead, Chill Touch, or another dread witch). I would love to see the conversation between this creature and a cleric, "I want to experience fear, please channel your god's power in front of me." "Are you crazy? The power of my god will turn you to dust!" "Please?"

I can see LA +3 as being fair. If the player does not use the gaze to it's potential then it is probably +2. The real question is what you would compare it against, and it compares favorably against a spellcaster at low levels, not so much at level 17... Of course what does?

[Rockphed]

I am officially agnostic on the LA for the evil face. I honestly don't think I have any idea to do with one. That said, this is probably thing sorcerer. At +3 it loses 9ths and is a level and a half behind other sorcerers. Is the gaze, getting all the best parts of incorporeality, and the stats worth +3?

[Caelestion]

Given the +6 Charisma? Probably, yes.

[Blue Jay]

I think I'm going to vote LA +2 for the ghostly visage. I'm a little concerned about giving incorporeality at low levels, but I don't think +3 is necessary here. The ghostly visage is probably the most playable of the symbionts in the book, because it's a little bit better at operating independently from a host, because of its fly speed. But it still can't really do anything on its own, so most of its abilities end up being passive and defensive in nature. On the other hand, when attached to a host, it doesn't penalize the host, but it gives some nice passive advantages to its host, and also gains a special attack of its own; so to me, it's definitely the most versatile symbiont in the book.

But, it will take a bit of investment from the player to get around the lack of physical manipulators, and the slow speed, and the Wisdom penalty, so I think it's okay to let it play at LA +2.

[liquidformat]

so plus side gaze attack, grants immunities to others, can attach to others, has a nice set of immunities, incorporeal

minuses movement speed is very slow, low hp, can't manipulate anything, missing most item slots, issues using items even if it has the slots, somatic components to spells.

Over all I think it is pretty well balanced at +2 after hearing everything.

[Inevitability]

Votes:

+2: 2 votes
+3: 3 votes

LA will remain at +3.

[Inevitability]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

[danielxcutter]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

It's a shame to see you go, but good luck in your future endeavors! You'll be sorely missed.

[Blue Jay]

Your dedication to this project had been pretty unprecedented. Thanks for this, Inevitability. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[Efrate]

Good luck in your future endeavors! It has been fun! If anyone takes up the mantle and continues do not be a stranger.

[Debatra]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Thanks Inevitability! Your archives are of great use in our legacy games.

If this does continue LM would be cool.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Sad to see you go, but it was definitely a good run!

[Remuko]

Sad to see you go, but I understand. I wasnt comfortable rating the symbionts so I had been biding my time waiting for the next book. If this is where it ends, It's been a satisfying run. I suppose like your username, it was an Inevitability that it would come to this (tho you were still a Dire_Stirge iirc when this project started :P )

[Thurbane]

Unrelated to the ghostly visage: we're officially done with the Fiend Folio now.

Normally this would be the time when I asked people to recommend or vote on future books to cover. Sadly, over the past months my interest in this thread (as well as 3.5 in general) has greatly declined, and I figure it's time to call this thread quits.

The past 4.5 years, nine threads, and six books have been extremely fun to cover. D&D's many creative, broken, or just plain weird monsters were an amazing source of entertainment, and I can only hope that this thread has been useful to people looking to play them in their campaigns.

If anyone else wants to take over this project, I will gladly share pastes of the archive posts and help them on their way in any other necessary manner.

Thanks to everyone who's ever contributed to this project, and good gaming.

Thanks for all of your great work. I have massively enjoyed this series of threads. :smallsmile:

[Batcathat]

Despite not having taken part of the discussions (apart from maybe a sarcastic quip or two), I have enjoyed these threads (I only started following them about a year ago but I went back and read through much of the archive) and appreciate the effort. Well done.

[Unavenger]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

I think you'd do a good job, if that helps.

[liquidformat]

Thanks Inevitability for this project, its been wonderful!

[No brains]

Ah, so I see that the thread title was saved for now because this announcement is just as distressing. Well played.:smalltongue:

Thank you for all the effort making jokes out of silly statistics around the game. I'm glad we got to play your idea as far as we did and I'm impressed at the level of work you put into this. Thanks for keeping 3.5 alive for me too.

[Luccan]

I don't think I've done much to help the threads but it's been very useful and fun. Thanks Inevitability. Your dedication is admirable and I wish you luck in your future endeavors

[Blue Jay]

It's been fun. Hopefully it will continue to be.

If someone else wants to step up, my vote for next book will be Libris Mortis.

If nobody else wants to step up, I guess I could try. Though I want to emphasize that I only want to if nobody else wants the job. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it justice, though I'd rather it be a little poorer than letting it die.

If you want to pick up the reins, I'd support you. I feel like Thurbane would be another excellent choice to lead.

And, if this is going to continue, Libris Mortis seems good to me too.

[Thurbane]

If you want to pick up the reins, I'd support you. I feel like Thurbane would be another excellent choice to lead.

And, if this is going to continue, Libris Mortis seems good to me too.

I also support Debatra. I'd love to take over, but I'm afraid I don't really have the time to dedicate at the moment.

Happy with Libris Mortis as well. I think we should get the smaller books out of the way before tackling the other MMs and big stuff.

[Dalmosh]

I seldom post here as my crunch mastery is too geared to low-level play to be very relevant in most cases, but this thread content is one of my favourite 3.5 related things on the internet.

I was really hoping to see Libris Mortis next too, and I'd be thrilled if somebody wanted to step up and keep Inevitability's train rolling.

[unseenmage]

So long and thanks for all the fish-monsters, among others.
One if my fav threads to lurk. Your work's been appreciated.

[Debatra]

I also support Debatra. I'd love to take over, but I'm afraid I don't really have the time to dedicate at the moment.

Happy with Libris Mortis as well. I think we should get the smaller books out of the way before tackling the other MMs and big stuff.

Gotta be honest; I was really hoping you'd want to take over. Your breakdowns have been invaluable. Though for that same reason, your vote of confidence means a lot.

Okay, fine then. I'll give it a few days for others to chime in; but if there are no objections, I'll be taking us forward with Libris Mortis.

New year, new book, new guy at the helm, same old broken monsters.

[Remuko]

Gotta be honest; I was really hoping you'd want to take over. Your breakdowns have been invaluable. Though for that same reason, your vote of confidence means a lot.

Okay, fine then. I'll give it a few days for others to chime in; but if there are no objections, I'll be taking us forward with Libris Mortis.

New year, new book, new guy at the helm, same old broken monsters.

If this comes to pass, Id like to suggest the next thread (whenever it happens) is titled "Under New Management"

[catagent101]

I don't think I know enough of the rules to play 3.5, but this has been one of my favourite threads to read on this forum. Thank you for your work Inevitability.

[Debatra]

If this comes to pass, Id like to suggest the next thread (whenever it happens) is titled "Under New Management"

Speaking of, what's everyone want to do on that front? On one hand; I'm under the impression that Playground Etiquette for receiving the torch would be to start a new thread so this one would be entirely Inevitability's. On the other; the "I Have No Mouth" thread title and its supporters have been patiently waiting all this time, and this thread that finally got it in is less than ten pages in. It almost feels like pulling the rug out from under them. (Though that may be the wrong way to phrase it, as that sort of implies trickery as opposed to just rotten luck.)

[Blue Jay]

Speaking of, what's everyone want to do on that front? On one hand; I'm under the impression that Playground Etiquette for receiving the torch would be to start a new thread so this one would be entirely Inevitability's. On the other; the "I Have No Mouth" thread title and its supporters have been patiently waiting all this time, and this thread that finally got it in is less than ten pages in. It almost feels like pulling the rug out from under them. (Though that may be the wrong way to phrase it, as that sort of implies trickery as opposed to just rotten luck.)

Nah, I think it's okay to start a new thread: this thread will be immortalized in the archives anyway. But on that note, if we're continuing under new management, I guess that means you'll have to start a new archives thread, right?

[No brains]

Alternately, we're mouthlessly screaming over the tragedy of losing Inevitability.

[Elysiume]

I want to chime in as someone who mostly plays Pathfinder, with my exposure to 3.5e almost entirely being these forums. These threads have been entertaining to follow, even though they'll never impact me or my play group. This seems like a good time to thank Inevitability, as well as everyone posting in these threads, for providing a good, entertaining read. :smallsmile:

[Falontani]

Thank you so much Inevitability. I use these threads in nearly every game I'm in, and really enjoyed the pbp you did for a short while too.

[Aniikinis]

You might wanna get in touch with Inevitability to make sure you can post in the archives and have co-ownership over that thread, in order to stop it from being locked or any trouble from happening.

That being said, I know I almost never posted or really helped at all, but I hope everything goes smoothly.

[Inevitability]

Thanks everybody for the kind words, it means a lot to me! I'll be on for the next while to make sure everything transitions smoothly, and will probably drop by every once in a while. Happy new year to y'all!

[Debatra]

New thread is up (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624824).

EDIT: And a new archive (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624825).