[5e] Level 1 character vs. a big bruiser

[Eldariel]

So there's this rather infamous part in a certain campaign path where an enemy wants to 1v1 a PC while PCs are probably still level 1 (probably with enough XP for level 2 but without the chance to rest). So, I was thinking, what kind of PC has the best chance of success?

Relevant enemy statistics:
HP: 57
AC: 17
Speed: 30'
Saves: +6 Str, +1 Dex, +5 Con, +0 Int, +2 Wis, +1 Cha
Skills: +6 Athletics
Senses: Blindsight 10', darkvision 60', PP 14

Actions:
- 4d10 damage lightning breath at 30' line (5-6 recharge)

2 attacks with either:
- Greatsword (+6 for 2d6+4 at 19-20/x2)
- Spear (+6 for 1d6+4 at 19-20/x2 and 20'/60' range if thrown) [only a single spear apparently so if thrown, he can only attack once]

AND

Action Surge
- The fight happens at night in dim light.
- The fight takes place on a grasslands hill outside the walls of a keep with a road in the general vicinity.
- The fight is completely 1v1; the bruiser forbids their entourage from intervening and said entourage kills hostages if other PCs intervene (which leads to object failure and thus the whole fight is pointless). The only possible exception is stealthy pre-fight buffing.
- Actually the fight takes place after a long day with no rest so the chances of a PC being at full power at this point is pretty miniscule. Let's ignore that for now and think that the PC has somehow conserved all their resources knowing that they'll need to take down a big bad raid leader at the end of the day in a 1v1 though.
- The rules don't state how close the fighters start. Given it's a duel they probably have to be pretty close though especially since the enemy controls the environment. Call it 50'?


So, with that in mind, what kind of build would stand a reasonable (let's call something like 20% chances of winning reasonable as this is a level 1 PC strained on resources fighting 1v1 with a CR4 bruiser) chance of victory?

Quick rundown of the situation:
- The breath averages 22 damage; successful save and d10 HD or Absorb Elements suffices to survive it. Failed save leads to likely death anyways (though 4d10 is somewhat fickle)
- The enemy range of engagement is essentially 90'; 60' dash + move with action surge to breathe 30' more. Spear throw at disadvantage can hit up to 60' but wasting Action Surge on something so unlikely to work doesn't seem like a smart move.
- Illusions run into issues with his 10' Blindsight. Of course, the natural counter is to use them at ranges above 10' but since he's inclined to close the distance to hit you in the face anyways, it's tricky to make much use of them.
- Melee blender with Greatsword for 4x +6 at 2d6+4 is likely to one-round any level 1 character short of a Raging 16+ Con Barbarian (15 HP or 30 EHP at AC 18 takes an average of 21,2 damage surviving one round). Of course, Breathe + Action Surge attacks are lethal even to said Barbie even on a successful save, since Rage doesn't halve elemental damage on level 1.


So, tank'n'spank is right out; it's going to obliterate you in melee. So the only real options are magic and kiting. Kiting is grey area; I'm not sure how long the 16 kobolds will watch you run circles around their champion without killing the hostages or shooting you (the enemy wants to be honourable but whether he considers kiting honourable enough to respect...).


The easiest way to kite is of course to win Initiative, cast Expeditious Retreat and Dash; this puts you 140' away the first round which is impossible for him to close even with Action Surge Dash and ranged attacks. Then you should be able to pepper him dead with Light Crossbow or whatever. Let's, for now, assume that the Kobolds will shoot the hostages over if you refuse to engage in an honourable duel and actually fight the opponent.


The only thing for taking him out in a straight fight I could think of was hitting enemy Wis-save with Tasha's Hideous Laughter (not a spell most Wizards might learn on this level, but I wouldn't put it past a Bard) and burying them alive with Mold Earth (which should work in this terrain by most DMs though of course not all). 5' of soil should suffice to keep him suffocating until he dies.

Of course, a 16 casting stat Hideous Laughter has a DC of 13 and the enemy at +2 Wis saves has a straight 50/50 of making the save and the act of Mold Earthing twice takes two rounds which gives him one more save for a total of 75% chance of the spell breaking before you can take him down.


So...anything better? I'm thinking Vuman 16 Dex/15 Con/16 Int Wizard 1 with Alert is probably the best bet here. Is there anything else that can reasonably (again, I'm willing to call 20% chance of victory reasonable here) expect to win? Bard of course by the virtue of the same spell; overall the Bard is probably a bit weaker but here it doesn't seem like it's likely to matter.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This is definitely not a fight you're supposed to win at level one, but if we're cheesing it I'm going Aarakocra, for their flight speed. Air Genasi with Levitation 1/day might work as well, but Aarakocra get +2 dex. Go variant ranger so at level 1 you get advantage on initiative. Pump your dex as high as you can, and bring a ranged weapon. This can even be a longbow because rangers get proficiency in that and Aarakocra are medium creatures. Win initiative, take off, use your 50' flight speed to get outside of breath weapon range, dodge or tank the spear hit at disadvantage for long range and kite from above. (Longbows have range 150/600, so you won't even need to roll at a disadvantage.) The enemy will now go inside or stand under a tree or something to prevent this tactic from working, claim the moral victory and land somewhere far away where they won't be coming to get revenge.

Flight at low levels is broken.

I'm also not entirely sure how those 16 kobolds are going to enter into it. If they're packing ranged weapons they won't quite have your range, but it will be at least enough to push you into using your long range, or to outright kill you if they move after your first turn. Them having hostages also means any kind of cheese is less likely to have the effect you want.

(Also, wait, did I just find a scenario in which ranger is the best class? At level 1 even? Nice. Even though it's revised, sure, that does make it easier...)

[Unoriginal]

You know DMs who allow Mold Earth to be turned into a "one-shot a boss as long as they stand on soil" spell?


If that kind of things is allowed, here's my strategy:

The big bruiser is honorable and prideful. Have the PC with the most CHA and Persuasion/Deception (with another to help if possible) tell him that the champion will only agree to the fight if it's a no weapon, no armor, no breath attack match, only two combatants showing their mettle without anything to meddle. Play up the angle that if he was confident in his draconic superiority, then his claws, jaw and scales would be more than enough to defeat any human. The kobolds' presence should help the PCs' argument, as not agreeing to fighting a disarmed human after boasting of his superiority would make the bruiser look weak in their eyes, and that's not desirable as a servant of Tiamat.

If he agrees to those terms, the champion for this duel is a VHuman Barbarian with Tavern Brawler. The Barbarian can have AC 14 and 14 HPs without armor, effectively 28 HPs while raging, while the bruiser would be at AC 11.

Barbarian's attack would be let's say +5 to hit, dealing 1d4+5 damages during Rage, average 7.

Bruiser's attack (no multiattack if not using Greatsword or Spear) would be +6 to hit, but with only 1+4 damages.

So in other words the Barbarian would need to hit 9 times before the bruiser hits them 6 times.

Now I'm not very good at math, so I can't say what are the odds of rolling 6 or above nine time times before the opponent rolls 8 or above six times, but it's probably higher than 20%.

[Frogreaver]

What about a cleric, Command: Surrender?

What about charm person?

Variant Human Hexblade with expedious retreat and shield master.

Shield master is the only good way to live through the breath. Could apply that to Barbarian as well.

If the party has a bard, maybe the enemy could be talked into favorable fighting terms before the fight. Maybe fighting on terms favorable to you. Talk him into fighting with a sword and a shield and light armor/ no armor if you are a barbarian. Might can even talk him into being honor bound not to breath attack.

Forge cleric with shield master and shield of faith hits 21-23 ac and can live through the breath attack. Inflict wounds can knock a hefy amount of hp off. War domain is less defensive but the bonus action attacks might make up for it.

If it wasn't for the breath attack, you could go lucky with a cleric and lucky inflict wounds on something like a war cleric followed up by 2-3 2 attack turns can burn something down fast.

[Eldariel]

This is definitely not a fight you're supposed to win at level one, but if we're cheesing it I'm going Aarakocra, for their flight speed. Air Genasi with Levitation 1/day might work as well, but Aarakocra get +2 dex. Go variant ranger so at level 1 you get advantage on initiative. Pump your dex as high as you can, and bring a ranged weapon. This can even be a longbow because rangers get proficiency in that and Aarakocra are medium creatures. Win initiative, take off, use your 50' flight speed to get outside of breath weapon range, dodge or tank the spear hit at disadvantage for long range and kite from above. (Longbows have range 150/600, so you won't even need to roll at a disadvantage.) The enemy will now go inside or stand under a tree or something to prevent this tactic from working, claim the moral victory and land somewhere far away where they won't be coming to get revenge.

Flight at low levels is broken.

I'm also not entirely sure how those 16 kobolds are going to enter into it. If they're packing ranged weapons they won't quite have your range, but it will be at least enough to push you into using your long range, or to outright kill you if they move after your first turn. Them having hostages also means any kind of cheese is less likely to have the effect you want.

(Also, wait, did I just find a scenario in which ranger is the best class? At level 1 even? Nice. Even though it's revised, sure, that does make it easier...)

This is about the same as the kiting strategy with Expeditious Retreat; both work. Good one though again I'm not sure this is optimal due to the hostages specifically. I think I prefer Vuman caster since this lets you take Alert as your level 1 feat which vastly increases the chance that you can go first; a tad more than the Rev. Ranger's advantage on Initiative checks. It's pretty close though; on a straight 50-50 check advantage IS worth +5 but in this case the check isn't quite 50/50 (enemy Initiative is +1, yours +3) so it's worth about +4.


You know DMs who allow Mold Earth to be turned into a "one-shot a boss as long as they stand on soil" spell?

Naa, eventually kill a boss who cannot move for a couple turns and is unable to get out from underneath ground. I don't really see any grounds to deny that other than some obscenely powerful enemies who can force their way out (optimally you should bury things deeper than 5' but in this case due to the iterative saves of Hideous Laughter you don't have the luxury). If the ground can be Molded, it can certainly be used to create a 5' hole and then fill it, and if the enemy is unable to move they will certainly end up in said hole and have no say in the matter of getting buried (especially if they're prone due to a condition). That's literally just the spell doing what it's written to do: dig a hole, fill a hole.


If that kind of things is allowed, here's my strategy:

The big bruiser is honorable and prideful. Have the PC with the most CHA and Persuasion/Deception (with another to help if possible) tell him that the champion will only agree to the fight if it's a no weapon, no armor, no breath attack match, only two combatants showing their mettle without anything to meddle. Play up the angle that if he was confident in his draconic superiority, then his claws, jaw and scales would be more than enough to defeat any human. The kobolds' presence should help the PCs' argument, as not agreeing to fighting a disarmed human after boasting of his superiority would make the bruiser look weak in their eyes, and that's not desirable as a servant of Tiamat.

If he agrees to those terms, the champion for this duel is a VHuman Barbarian with Tavern Brawler. The Barbarian can have AC 14 and 14 HPs without armor, effectively 28 HPs while raging, while the bruiser would be at AC 11.

Barbarian's attack would be let's say +5 to hit, dealing 1d4+5 damages during Rage, average 7.

Bruiser's attack (no multiattack if not using Greatsword or Spear) would be +6 to hit, but with only 1+4 damages.

So in other words the Barbarian would need to hit 9 times before the bruiser hits them 6 times.

Now I'm not very good at math, so I can't say what are the odds of rolling 6 or above nine time times before the opponent rolls 8 or above six times, but it's probably higher than 20%.

Interesting take. Yeah, I can see trying that. Though I don't see why we'd stick to 14 AC and HP; 15 AC and HP with 16 Con is eminently achievable. So 30 EHP and AC 15. Meanwhile, the enemy has 57 HP and +6 to hit for 5 damage. Average that...

Damage per turn to the Barbie is 5 * 0,55 = 2,75 and the Barbie's damage is 0,7 * 7,5 + 0,05 * 10 = 5,75. So it takes an average of 10 rounds for the Barbarian to drop the enemy and an average of 11 turns for the enemy to drop the Barbie. So the barbarian is actually over 50% to win if they have a reasonable shot at winning the Initiative check (and even without). Of course, we have to account for the probability of successfully convincing the enemy to these terms; call it a DC 15-20 Persuasion-check? So if the party has e.g. a Bard with some charm-type effect, they can probably pull it off with like a 45%-75% chance of success.

Overall chances of success counting all of this together are maybe in the ~25-30% realm so pretty darn good for the setup. Of course, the big problem is whether the enemy is willing to fight without their breath weapon; it's probably easier to have them not use weapons or armor but breath weapon is intrinsic to them and "their draconic lineage" so that's probably a higher Persuasion DC. But that's probably the only way to go since Barbie specifically can't really get a good means of blocking the Breath Weapon without equipment.


What about a cleric, Command: Surrender?

What about charm person?

Variant Human Hexblade with expedious retreat and shield master.

Shield master is the only good way to live through the breath. Could apply that to Barbarian as well.

If the party has a bard, maybe the enemy could be talked into favorable fighting terms before the fight. Maybe fighting on terms favorable to you. Talk him into fighting with a sword and a shield and light armor/ no armor if you are a barbarian. Might can even talk him into being honor bound not to breath attack.

Forge cleric with shield master and shield of faith hits 21-23 ac and can live through the breath attack. Inflict wounds can knock a hefy amount of hp off. War domain is less defensive but the bonus action attacks might make up for it.

If it wasn't for the breath attack, you could go lucky with a cleric and lucky inflict wounds on something like a war cleric followed up by 2-3 2 attack turns can burn something down fast.

Hmm. Command: Surrender...maybe? Very DM-dependent, but certainly an interesting take. Same with Charm Person. I think it's more effective before the fight than during it. I think living through the breath attack with Absorb Elements is likely enough; the big problem is only taking the breath and nothing else.

Forge Cleric is an interesting take, but that's just not enough it feels like. Whether or not the breath lands, AC 21 just isn't enough to survive many turns of +6/+6 Greatsword swings and the Cleric needs a long while to kill him with Guiding Bolts or Inflict Wounds or similars. Inflict Wounds critical could help; 33 damage from one hit. But without crits the Cleric is out of spells too soon and the crits are too unlikely to rely on. You can probably get to about 5-10% chance of victory this way.

[Eldariel]

It just occurs to me that describing Rage as doubled EHP is actually not strictly accurate. Resistance halves damage, yes, but it halves rounding down so it's actually a bit better than that, especially in this case where damage is locked to 5. It reduces the actual damage by 3 down to 2. So the Enemy would actually deal 2 * 0,55 = 1,1 average damage vs. Barbie's HP of 15 while the Barb is raging taking almost 13 rounds to kill the Barbie (of course, the Barbie's rage runs out in 10 rounds so after that the average damage becomes the 2,75 I mentioned before meaning the actual number of rounds is probably lower, depending on who wins the Initiative, whether the Barb has the chance to rage before the first turn's attack plus action surge). This is actually a fairly complicated affair and providing an exact probability split will take a while.

It's basically:
- Barb goes first, Rages and wins the fight with a fairly solid margin. The Barb seems to have +2 Initiative so if we use "Initiative/Dex-bonus as tiebreaker"-rules, this is actually significantly more likely at 57,25% chance.
- Enemy goes first (42,75%), action surges and lands an average of ~5,4 points of damage before rage kicks in and wins the fight effortlessly. Of course, since the value of attacks on the first round and subsequent rounds is different, this has high volatility and averages don't really tell the whole story. Landing both round 1 attacks (30,25% chance) all but guarantees an effortless victory for the Enemy while landing neither of the attacks (20,25%) still leaves the Barb at a reasonable position while the remaining 49,5% chance of one hit landing means a likely victory for the Enemy. So even of this percentage we can say that the Enemy loses about 20,25% of the time when going first which amounts to an additional 8,656875% chance of fairly reasonable victory. Overall, this leads to 65,906875 or about 65,9% chance of likely victory in the actual fight.


I'd say this actually works out great. So then it's just a matter of getting the Half-Dragon to agree to these terms. Unfortunately short duration manipulation spells run the issue that taking off Splint Mail takes a long while (5 minutes) so all the negative side-effects have kicked in which might affect the agreement; if it realizes it was magically manipulated it probably just kills the hostages so the actual idea of Charming or Friends won't work. Rogue with 16 Cha and Expertise in Persuasion can run a +7 check for a reasonable shot at DC15 but fairly poor at DC20, which is where I'd peg "fight barehanded and clad without breath weapon" [the stipulation to not use breath weapon adds an additional level of difficulty for an extra 5 points to the check I'd wager].

[Valmark]

Wouldn't the chance to hit of the dragonborn be 60% against AC 15? Dunno how much that has effect on the fight.

[Mr Adventurer]

Presuming there is an arena and leaving the arena counts as forfeit, then the humble Cause Fear could work. Basically just down to the luck of the roll on the save.

If the encounter is at the end of an adventuring day, is there any extra equipment we have access to?

[Eldariel]

Wouldn't the chance to hit of the dragonborn be 60% against AC 15? Dunno how much that has effect on the fight.

Ah right, I just didn't count crits since there are no dice to roll. MB. No major difference, but I'll count it when I get to the computer.

[Valmark]

Presuming there is an arena and leaving the arena counts as forfeit, then the humble Cause Fear could work. Basically just down to the luck of the roll on the save.

If the encounter is at the end of an adventuring day, is there any extra equipment we have access to?

You get some stuff IF you fight the bruiser in question (after fighting them). Before then you only get gold with no chance to spend it.

Assuming I guessed correctly which module it is.

[Unoriginal]

Wouldn't the chance to hit of the dragonborn be 60% against AC 15? Dunno how much that has effect on the fight.

Half-dragon has +6 to hit, so against AC 15 it's 55%.


It just occurs to me that describing Rage as doubled EHP is actually not strictly accurate. Resistance halves damage, yes, but it halves rounding down so it's actually a bit better than that, especially in this case where damage is locked to 5. It reduces the actual damage by 3 down to 2.

Good point.



I'd say this actually works out great. So then it's just a matter of getting the Half-Dragon to agree to these terms. Unfortunately short duration manipulation spells run the issue that taking off Splint Mail takes a long while (5 minutes) so all the negative side-effects have kicked in which might affect the agreement; if it realizes it was magically manipulated it probably just kills the hostages so the actual idea of Charming or Friends won't work. Rogue with 16 Cha and Expertise in Persuasion can run a +7 check for a reasonable shot at DC15 but fairly poor at DC20, which is where I'd peg "fight barehanded and clad without breath weapon" [the stipulation to not use breath weapon adds an additional level of difficulty for an extra 5 points to the check I'd wager].

Well let's keep in mind the context: the bruiser is trying to acquire glory and increase his reputation not only among his minions, but also with the cult higher-ups and his goddess. He doesn't care about the hostages, and in fact is happy to release all of them in exchange of the fight, he even frree three and keeps the to assure there is no shenanigans if anyone agree to fight him. To refuse the conditions would make him look as if he's less courageous than an human who dare face him with nothing in term of equipment, and he's precisely trying to do the reverse. Or at the very least it would show that he only talks big when he has all the advantage but recoil at the idea of fighting a noob at a disadvantage when the noob proves to have the guts to challenge him, making him look like a wannabe not confident he can win without his breath, and it would most likely hindering the faith people have in his capacities.

So while the DC would be pretty high I'd say the PCs would at least have advantage. Or it'd be an opposed CHA vs WIS check with the Half-Dragon being at disadvantage.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Goblin rogue with +10 Stealth, a bunch of caltrops, oil, ball bearings, and an ignition source, relying on the kobold definition of honor?

99% chance of becoming hidden on your turn if you can be 60' away (should be doable). He can't search and offend on the same turn. You keep filling the battlefield with hazards until they are enough to kill him.

The counter tactic is to just stand still and ready action. But you can counter that by just shooting from far away.

Its worse than the straightforward bird strategy of just shooting from above, but someone already mentioned that.

A third, silly option, is to be a Goliath or bugbear and just drop something on him he can't lift.

[GeoffWatson]

If you make the "cheating" too blatant like flying or hiding, the bad guy might kill the hostages (or threaten to), if the PC doesn't fight "fair".

[Wraith]

Presuming there is an arena and leaving the arena counts as forfeit, then the humble Cause Fear could work. Basically just down to the luck of the roll on the save.

If the encounter is at the end of an adventuring day, is there any extra equipment we have access to?

The premise sounds familiar - I think it's from the Hoard of the Dragon Queen adventure. If I'm right, the answer is no and no; the Dragonborn Fighter approaches the gates of a fort/town where the party are sheltering, and the duel takes place either on the bridge over the moat, or otherwise in the open field beyond. There's not a lot more to it other than "Fight me or I kill a bunch of NPCs", and it's up to the GM as to whether or not it's fair or honourable.

As for equipment, not really? It's literally the first session of a campaign so you have your starter kit and whatever stuff you can scrounge from a fairly small town.

If I recall correctly when I played though this encounter, the challenge was answered by the party's Paladin. Had he won initiative, rolled high damage with a two-handed weapon and burned all his Smites and Lay On Hands we worked out that he had a sort-of reasonable chance of winning just with raw DPS, but that required a lot of factors to align together and at the time it just didn't work out.

Otherwise, I think the only way you're realistically going to win is by either kiting with a flying race, win initiative and using Mold Earth to bury it in a pit, or to get slightly lucky with something like Charm Person and asking it to forfeit.

[Valmark]

Half-dragon has +6 to hit, so against AC 15 it's 55%.


If the barbarian hits on a 6+ and has a 75% chance to hit (with 5% being a crit) the half-dragon hitting on a 9+ would have a 60% chance to hit. 3 less favorable results equal -15% chance to hit.

Yes, I went the most roundabout way possible.

Though checking the math it doesn't really matter, barbarian still wins if it wins initiative.

[J-H]

That enemy has half the total HP and about the same melee damage and AC as a werewolf pack leader I threw at two 4th level characters as a 1v2 duel in Castle Dracula. That fight ended with 1 PC standing with 1 HP.

I don't see a first or even 2nd level character surviving this period outside of crazy dice. Best bet would be a 2nd level rogue who throws out tons and tons of caltrops and ball bearings to prevent ever getting into melee.

[Trandir]

Well the plan of the naked boxer barbarian requires a high Cha PC to work. So why not add in the mix inspiring leader? 4 THP will come in handy to get better chances at winning right?

[Eldariel]

Well the plan of the naked boxer barbarian requires a high Cha PC to work. So why not add in the mix inspiring leader? 4 THP will come in handy to get better chances at winning right?

Certainly. In general, this option opens up using buffs to survive the fight. Of course, level 1 buffs aren't all that but there are some interesting ones (Shield of Faith springs to mind immediately as does Heroism).


So we can summarize results thus far as:
- Kiting: Wings, Expeditious Retreat, etc. - pretty simple, practically guaranteed to work but might get the hostages killed. This is open to a good spread of classes: Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer can all do this, or any race with a flight race.
- Hiding: This runs into issues with the Blindsight if they get close so you have to steer clear. Mostly about the same as the "kiting" strategy.
- SoL: Three suggestions in the save-or-lose category thus far. Charm Person (though what would you do with it?), Command: Surrender (an interesting approach) and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Laughter should win no problem if the target fails two saves but that's unlikely enough. Command: Surrender might or might not; it certainly will stop surrendering the turn after. Charm Person...might work.
- Diplomacy: "Can you face our greatest champion in a fair test of mettle one on one, no armor, weapons or breath weapon". If you can get something like this to land (or can convince him to give up the hostages). This enables setting conditions where some PCs might stand a good chance in a straight-up brawl, especially the Barbarian. The trick is getting there.

I'm wondering if there's a way to get buffed up enough to take a one-v-one fight the oldfashioned way. Heroism + Shield of Faith. If there were an easy way to give it a disadvantage on its attacks, the fight would be somewhat more survivable as a brawl. As it stands, all I can think of falls a bit short. Level 2 Moon Druid might actually stand a reasonable chance (I'll have to run the numbers, it's still favourable to the Half-Dragon but it's close) but a level 1 Druid is sad enough. PAM + Sentinel might work but there's no way to get two feats on level 1 (and even then, you'd need to land an improbable number of hits and survive the breath).

[Wraith]

- SoL: Three suggestions in the save-or-lose category thus far.

I think the plan of using Mold Earth to trap him in a pit is also viable. Particularly if two members of the party have it - one can surreptitiously hide somewhere out of sight and use it to open the pit, and then another to close it again in the same round, before the Dragonborn has chance to try and escape.

A DM might decide that it gets a DEX save to jump out of the way, but he's not that great at it - especially if we're going to go down the route of grappling with it and can deliberately Shove it into the hole.


If there were an easy way to give it a disadvantage on its attacks, the fight would be somewhat more survivable as a brawl.

I realise that I'm fixating on Grappling here, but Shove him prone? If he's grappled then he's restrained at 0 movement, so he can't get back up again - he has disadvantage to hit and we gain advantage. Athletics +6 is tricky but far from insurmountable, as our own Barbarian PC can probably make at least +5 with Advantage even without additional buffs from the party.

Alternatively, poison? A the cost of a dose of something worthwhile is probably outside of a level 1 character's remit, but if one of our characters is a Grung then we might have something to work with.

This is, of course, assuming that we're willing to meet him in battle more-or-less honestly.
While formidable, the Dragonborn is the only true threat on the field and his entourage are just kobolds - what's to stop us from putting them down with a couple of well-placed Sleep spells followed by an Entangle? It's not going to hurt the hostages, and we're free for the next 10 rounds or so while we rush the Dragonborn and crush him 5 (or more?)-on-1 :smallbiggrin:

If the party's Paladin insists on being Lawful Stupid and complaining that it's not fair to break a 1-on-1 challenge, I'm sure we can find a diplomancer who can convince him that agreements made forcibly under duress are in no way legally binding and is an inherent violation of the code of chivalry....

[Waazraath]

You know DMs who allow Mold Earth to be turned into a "one-shot a boss as long as they stand on soil" spell?


If that kind of things is allowed, here's my strategy:

The big bruiser is honorable and prideful. Have the PC with the most CHA and Persuasion/Deception (with another to help if possible) tell him that the champion will only agree to the fight if it's a no weapon, no armor, no breath attack match, only two combatants showing their mettle without anything to meddle. Play up the angle that if he was confident in his draconic superiority, then his claws, jaw and scales would be more than enough to defeat any human. The kobolds' presence should help the PCs' argument, as not agreeing to fighting a disarmed human after boasting of his superiority would make the bruiser look weak in their eyes, and that's not desirable as a servant of Tiamat.

If he agrees to those terms, the champion for this duel is a VHuman Barbarian with Tavern Brawler. The Barbarian can have AC 14 and 14 HPs without armor, effectively 28 HPs while raging, while the bruiser would be at AC 11.

Barbarian's attack would be let's say +5 to hit, dealing 1d4+5 damages during Rage, average 7.

Bruiser's attack (no multiattack if not using Greatsword or Spear) would be +6 to hit, but with only 1+4 damages.

So in other words the Barbarian would need to hit 9 times before the bruiser hits them 6 times.

Now I'm not very good at math, so I can't say what are the odds of rolling 6 or above nine time times before the opponent rolls 8 or above six times, but it's probably higher than 20%.

I like the strategy. How would this work with a shifter as race? It gets 4 temporary hp, with 1d6 extra and +1 AC with beasthide, or longtooth with a 1d6 natural weapon? In combination with rage, the temp hp count as a double.

[Valmark]

This is, of course, assuming that we're willing to meet him in battle more-or-less honestly.
While formidable, the Dragonborn is the only true threat on the field and his entourage are just kobolds - what's to stop us from putting them down with a couple of well-placed Sleep spells followed by an Entangle? It's not going to hurt the hostages, and we're free for the next 10 rounds or so while we rush the Dragonborn and crush him 5 (or more?)-on-1 :smallbiggrin:


The fact that you've been through at least 7 or so encounters by then. Thinking there is a character with all their resources ready for a duel is already a stretch.

(Also he might actually win it depending on how many he can hit with the breath attack at that level).

[Eldariel]

I think the plan of using Mold Earth to trap him in a pit is also viable. Particularly if two members of the party have it - one can surreptitiously hide somewhere out of sight and use it to open the pit, and then another to close it again in the same round, before the Dragonborn has chance to try and escape.

A DM might decide that it gets a DEX save to jump out of the way, but he's not that great at it - especially if we're going to go down the route of grappling with it and can deliberately Shove it into the hole.

Without a disable it won't work in a 1v1. You need one turn to dig the hole and another to close it with it prone in the bottom. Otherwise you can't even entomb it properly; and one round is more than enough time to get out from a hole especially with 19 Str and +6 Athletics. So, disable and then entomb. It's a different matter with someone assisting but that directly breaches the original rules (I know a group of 4 can effortlessly take down the Enemy; but it's a huge challenge 1v1).


I realise that I'm fixating on Grappling here, but Shove him prone? If he's grappled then he's restrained at 0 movement, so he can't get back up again - he has disadvantage to hit and we gain advantage. Athletics +6 is tricky but far from insurmountable, as our own Barbarian PC can probably make at least +5 with Advantage even without additional buffs from the party.

Definitely a worthwhile idea but the primary problem is getting and keeping the Enemy prone. You lack a second attack on these levels so you can't easily Grapple + Shove them in one round. And +6 Athletics isn't trivial even for +5 with Advantage. And they can still try to escape the Grapple with a reasonable chance of success which takes two more turns of setup if they do succeed.


Alternatively, poison? A the cost of a dose of something worthwhile is probably outside of a level 1 character's remit, but if one of our characters is a Grung then we might have something to work with.

Grung is definitely an interesting call. What's the best level 1 poisoning Grung? You can at best get DC13 on the save DC so you ideally want to apply it twice (or more) in the first round of combat to get a reasonable chance at applying it. Sadly Grung precludes a level 1 feat so we'll also need to survive the breath weapon somehow. But hmm, what's the lowest likelihood for a hit we can give the enemy if we are a Grung? Chain Mail + Shield + Shield of Faith. War Cleric also gets two attacks with their Greatsword or whatever...Wis times per day (again, we're assuming that none have been used; one character has been avoiding all resource expenditure this whole day knowing they'd have to beat the enemy champion while at it). So Grung War Cleric could get 14 Wis, 16 Con, 16 Dex (sadly 16 Str is not possible before Tasha's racial adjustments) for +5 at 1d8+3 or 14 Wis, 16 Con, 14 Str (and like 14 Dex) for +4 at 2d6+2 damage. They could have 20 AC with Shield of Faith + Chain Mail + Shield and fight with a rapier, or 18 AC with a Greatsword. Now, 1d8+3 is 1,5 less than 2d6+2 but 2d6+2 is at a worse attack bonus so the Dex path is probably better.

All of this comes crashing down to the breath weapon though. Our 11 HP Cleric will probably go down to the breath weapon even on a successful save and there's no feat option here. Even Sanctuary doesn't help here. The only real option to survive this would be a class that can cast Absorb Elements (Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer) or a class with enough HP to survive the hit on a successful save (Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger). Of those options only really Fighter has a reasonable option available after it: Second Wind can recover a good bunch of the lost HP so that he might have a prayer of taking another hit (unlikely though). Further, taking down the Enemy takes too long; it has the normal 5-6 recharge so it'll be available soon enough again and anyone is going down to the second breath. Only Shield Master does indeed help here and it actually also enables knocking the opponent prone with a semi-reasonable chance of success. I guess this brings us right about back to the original suggestion by Frogreaver on Forge Cleric: Shield Master Forge Cleric can theoretically survive a couple of breaths at semi-reasonable odds and has enough AC to at least make the enemy break a sweat to hit (I'd actually have to do the math to check if it's better to enhance your sword or your shield; my instincts say sword since you need to end the enemy ASAP but the extra AC makes the odds of surviving the flurry of "you dies" slightly higher).

So...Vuman Forge Cleric with 16 Con/Str and Shield of Faith active going in and grappling on the first round, then attack > shoving prone on the second? Seems pretty weak all things considered; too many points of failure (having to survive the flurry of 4 attacks where a single hit has a reasonable chance of outright killing you). I think Command is the better opener. Command: Grovel or something of the sort leaves the enemy prone and wastes their turn. Alternatively, Cause Fear and then successfully blocking the breath would have it swinging at you at disadvantage (against your AC 19 since Cause Fear takes Concentration). Its chance of hitting against AC 19 at disadvantage are 16% per hit so it takes a fair bit of luck to avoid it long enough. Ultimately Command is probably better since the difference between 19 and 21 AC is massive (16% vs 9%; almost twice the chance to get hit per attack at 19 AC) and Cause Fear has repeat saves anyways all of which are probably at 55% success rate since you can only get 14 Wis if you need 16 Con and Str (though you could also just gamble on not getting hit and go with lower Con and higher Wis and Dex).

One additional option is trying to get it to drop its weapon: Command: Drop and next turn pick up the Greatsword reduces enemy potential significantly and if you can do the same to the Spear, it'll have nothing but fists left. Even those are probably enough though, and trying to keep it grappled prone as a Cleric even with +5 Athletics is pretty tricky.


This is, of course, assuming that we're willing to meet him in battle more-or-less honestly.
While formidable, the Dragonborn is the only true threat on the field and his entourage are just kobolds - what's to stop us from putting them down with a couple of well-placed Sleep spells followed by an Entangle? It's not going to hurt the hostages, and we're free for the next 10 rounds or so while we rush the Dragonborn and crush him 5 (or more?)-on-1 :smallbiggrin:

If the party's Paladin insists on being Lawful Stupid and complaining that it's not fair to break a 1-on-1 challenge, I'm sure we can find a diplomancer who can convince him that agreements made forcibly under duress are in no way legally binding and is an inherent violation of the code of chivalry....

The primary issue is that even if one character somehow has resources left, the rest of the party probably doesn't. We're talking about 6-10 non-trivial encounters thus far for a level 1 party probably without a short rest. Even in the best case scenario, the party will be pretty beat up. So there's probably precious little left in terms of non-at will support resources. Thus taking out 16 Kobolds before they kill the hostages is practically impossible and there are probably better odds to be had in the 1v1. In any case, that's the part I want to focus on since the adventure does have (stupid) provisos for if the 1v1 is won by the party member.

[da newt]

I'm not familiar with the encounter, but it sounds like BS design.

Maybe the best answer is to roll into this encounter with a sacrificial PC (I assume the hostages are freed if you agree to the duel and the fight is honorable). If you know going into into the contest that your most likely outcome is a dead PC, then you might as well go for the Hail Mary Suggestion or whatever and if it doesn't work, break out your already prepped back up PC and continue on.

I'd build a very 'for the greater good' kind of a PC - the sort of guy who would hear the offer, and decide sacrificing himself is worth the release of the hostages and safety of his party. Take off all your gear, walk right up to the BBEG and sit down, close your eyes, and say "I'm ready."



My alternate tactic would be to spend a bunch of time talking about rules of the duel, persuading for allowances, etc all the while secretly planning with the party to all unload on this "champion" before the fight even starts. Honor is dumb in life and death combat situations - surprise round - we nuke your champ before he even acts, now to wipe the floor with all you little goobers.

[Kurt Kurageous]

We did this showdown in HotDQ when we were 3rd level and the DM scaled things. Our champion still lost, mostly for the reasons of poor dice and ability attrition. We even cheated, with the cleric casting warding bond and healing himself as he had fewer HP than our champion.

This whole scenario came from the dawn of 5e, and has been critically reviewed many times. And it wasnt even the worst part. The dragon? We got lucky and critted it on the second pass.

BTW champion was run by me, vhuman PAM + Sentinel (free feat house rule) attacking 3 times in first round, two times thereafter with a halberd and splintmail.

[RogueJK]

What about a cleric, Command: Surrender?


Keep in mind that no matter the Command, it only lasts 1 round. So he'd surrender for 6 seconds (1 round), possibly kneeling and dropping his greatsword, but then pick up his dropped Greatsword and proceed to demolish you.

At most, you might get 1 Attack with Advantage out of it, during the round he is "surrendering". But that won't be enough to kill him outright, and most likely won't be enough to put a Cleric far enough ahead to win in the long run.

[Wraith]

Without a disable it won't work in a 1v1.

It takes 2 rounds, but you can do it all at once by holding actions:

Turn 1: Dragonkin is grappled
Wizard #1 and #2 hold actions

Turn 2: Everyone holds action so that Wizard #1 can open a pit, Grappler can Shove the Dragonkin into it, and Wizard #2 can close the pit again all in short order without interruptions.

The problem, as you've pointed out, is surviving until round 2 long enough to put this into action. I think it can be done, and there's a strong argument that being shoved by a trained wrestler into a 6ft deep pit is likely to cause the Dragonkin to land on his butt - GM caveat not withstanding of course.

But if you insist on handicapping the PCs and making them fight ACTUALLY 1-vs-1, yeah, they're pretty screwed.


Grung is definitely an interesting call. What's the best level 1 poisoning Grung? You can at best get DC13 on the save DC so you ideally want to apply it twice (or more) in the first round of combat to get a reasonable chance at applying it.

Probably just the generic version from One Grung Above that just inflicts the Poisoned condition? Although since you mention it, the Purple poison makes the victim run off and jump into the nearest pond or river - you could potentially style that one out as them fleeing from the fight, a Dragonkin can go pretty far in 60 seconds which is plenty of time for us to convince the kobolds that they have been abandonned.

A Grung Monk would probably work better than an armed character - Flurry of Blows allows for 3 attacks at level 1, with each one that hits counting as 'contact' and causing a Saving Throw to resist the effects, whereas a poisoned weapon only works once per application.


The primary issue is that even if one character somehow has resources left, the rest of the party probably doesn't.
...
In any case, that's the part I want to focus on since the adventure does have (stupid) provisos for if the 1v1 is won by the party member.

Fair enough - the OP suggested we work on the premise that this wasn't the case and that we have resources to hand. If we're not doing that, then I think you're probably right and realistically we're going to need a very unusual and impractical Grapple-with-Conditions premise that the GM might just decide the other guy refuses to agree with.
At the very least, the breath weapon is just a hard "no" to most things we can throw at it, especially if we can't have Sleep then we probably can't have Absorb Elements either.


Keep in mind that no matter the Command, it only lasts 1 round. So he'd surrender for 6 seconds (1 round), possibly kneeling and dropping his greatsword, but then pick up his dropped Greatsword and proceed to demolish you.

If you finangle the conditions of the fight to include "the first person to kneel admits defeat and forfeits the fight" or something along those lines, this might still work. The Dragonkin is supposed to be (?) fairly honourable, and he might accept this as a reasonable condition and even honour it thereafter. Also, he might not and the GM just says he gets up and stabs you anyway, who knows?

[Valmark]

I'm not familiar with the encounter, but it sounds like BS design.

Maybe the best answer is to roll into this encounter with a sacrificial PC (I assume the hostages are freed if you agree to the duel and the fight is honorable). If you know going into into the contest that your most likely outcome is a dead PC, then you might as well go for the Hail Mary Suggestion or whatever and if it doesn't work, break out your already prepped back up PC and continue on.

I'd build a very 'for the greater good' kind of a PC - the sort of guy who would hear the offer, and decide sacrificing himself is worth the release of the hostages and safety of his party. Take off all your gear, walk right up to the BBEG and sit down, close your eyes, and say "I'm ready."

My alternate tactic would be to spend a bunch of time talking about rules of the duel, persuading for allowances, etc all the while secretly planning with the party to all unload on this "champion" before the fight even starts. Honor is dumb in life and death combat situations - surprise round - we nuke your champ before he even acts, now to wipe the floor with all you little goobers.
Well, it's not supposed to be won- you are never at risk of death unless you get overkilled big time either. Even the reward isn't tied to winning, just partecipating.

Also note that group attacking the champion gets the hostages killed (and I think makes you lose the reward, at least a part).

We did this showdown in HotDQ when we were 3rd level and the DM scaled things. Our champion still lost, mostly for the reasons of poor dice and ability attrition. We even cheated, with the cleric casting warding bond and healing himself as he had fewer HP than our champion.

This whole scenario came from the dawn of 5e, and has been critically reviewed many times. And it wasnt even the worst part. The dragon? We got lucky and critted it on the second pass.

BTW champion was run by me, vhuman PAM + Sentinel (free feat house rule) attacking 3 times in first round, two times thereafter with a halberd and splintmail.

Did he really need a boost against a 3rd level character after so many encounters?

And yeah, the dragon is the worst. Feels like it's there just to drain your resources and waste time.

[Eldariel]

I'm not familiar with the encounter, but it sounds like BS design.

Maybe the best answer is to roll into this encounter with a sacrificial PC (I assume the hostages are freed if you agree to the duel and the fight is honorable). If you know going into into the contest that your most likely outcome is a dead PC, then you might as well go for the Hail Mary Suggestion or whatever and if it doesn't work, break out your already prepped back up PC and continue on.

I'd build a very 'for the greater good' kind of a PC - the sort of guy who would hear the offer, and decide sacrificing himself is worth the release of the hostages and safety of his party. Take off all your gear, walk right up to the BBEG and sit down, close your eyes, and say "I'm ready."

The intended way for this to go is that either the PCs decline the challenge and an NPC Guard takes it instead trying to save their wife (and dies in short order), or one of the PCs takes it and gets knocked unconscious (with one failed death save) with the enemy walking away building a vendetta. It says victory should be highly unlikely (but of course dice are dice), but still says that the enemy will be replaced by an another identical creature when you encounter it again later if the PCs kill it (if I ever ran this I obviously would do that differently but I'd probably keep this encounter specifically to build a personal vendetta and make the Enemy a bigger deal in the whole thing).

Of course, the optimiser in me wants to figure out what are the best odds we can get in a straight fight (where the answer seems to be "Easy victory" with kiting [probably optimally Wizard 1 with Alert or Lucky so that even if you lose the initiative and get breathed on you can still survive], "Doable victory with highly specialised builds in a few ways" with diplomacy, and "~20% victory" in a straight-up brawl with optimal builds and strategy to that end). As we all know, CR is BS and PCs are BS but level 1 PCs are slightly less BS than most since they lack most useful abilities.



On level 3 this should be quite easy for many PCs but of course, assuming you have went through the day as intended, you'll still be so down on resources that you might not be able to win. I'm thinking a Moon Druid should have quite good odds for instance; Deinonychus with Mobile can easily tank the breath and the kite is highly efficient (though both Wildshapes will probably be burnt through especially if it recovers the breath). Similarly, simple Brown Bear isn't bad; on level 2 you'd want Magical Secrets for Mage Armor while on level 3 simple Res: Con and Barkskin would probably be your best bet.

And these types of 1v1s are extremely volatile; one-two good rolls can make or break the fight. Wizard 3 can easily win with a status effect spell but that's often down to a single save. The typical 16/15/16 Diviner with Lucky or Alert is probably the best bet there. For level 3, you have your choice of options but with level 1 it's pretty much set in stone. The big difference from the run-of-the-mill Wizard to one built for this encounter specifically is that you want Hideous Laughter and Absorb Elements prepared - neither is impossible on first level but it's not your generally optimal spell loadout either (4 spells which should probably consist of Sleep, selection of Shield/Mage Armor/Absorb Elements, and selection of Expeditious Retreat/Thunderwave/Fog Cloud/Silent Image/Hideous Laughter under normal circumstances). From the "optimal" spell loadout (something like Sleep/Shield/Mage Armor/Expeditious Retreat) you'd only have the kiting as an option even with stuff like Unseen Servant > Oil + Create Bonfire and normal familiar shenanigans.

[RogueJK]

I'm not familiar with the encounter, but it sounds like BS design.


That kinda sums up much of that adventure module (Hoard of the Dragon Queen).

It was the first 5E module, and was thrown together before the 5E rules were completed. It has a number of issues.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind that in the adventure the half-dragon frees most of the hostages if anyone accept the challenge, and free the remaining one if there is no cheating.

I think the idea *could* have been interesting and created a fondly-remembered nemesis that you could look forward to find again, but as it stand in the adventure it's just another bs that kicks the PCs in the teeth after a bad day and which will likely be too one-sided to be fun.

Not sure what kind of power level would have made that encounter better, but I think that "slightly less strong than the PC but given the edge by the draconic powers he got" would have been great for the first fight, and then have him grow more powerful with each subsequent clash until the climatic battle.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it's overall a fairly poorly written module. It's got cool themes and a lot of nice ideas but the execution is pretty poor across the board, this too being one of those (the idea is good, great even - but boy, the execution...). But as ever, this just means we need to optimise enough to beat poor design as players :smallamused: As a DM, you can actually make it pretty good - give the PCs chances to rest, have the enemy do some "Honorable villain"-stuff like leave the PC alive for a good fight (and not use breath or action surge unless the enemy pushes you enough to do it), etc. but this is of course not in the module and we're working with the module as written here.

[x3n0n]

This whole scenario came from the dawn of 5e, and has been critically reviewed many times. And it wasnt even the worst part. The dragon? We got lucky and critted it on the second pass.


And yeah, the dragon is the worst. Feels like it's there just to drain your resources and waste time.

Not to belabor this sideline, but the dragon was by far the worst at our table as well.

We had two players and the DM, all with zero D&D experience, plus two somewhat experienced players. (The DM thought that being a PC to get experience first sounded like no fun.) DM figured the module had to be "right" and didn't realize that the breath weapon was guaranteed to straight-up kill a PC with no death saves... Which happened, except we eventually (after a big rules argument and explanation) retconned it to be only enough damage to knock unconscious. After that, we had no clue how to progress, given that we had no real ranged attackers.

It was stressful and everybody was angry.

By comparison, the thread headline encounter was unfair, but at least it was clear that pop-up healing would be an option afterward, and it happened after the dragon train wreck, so we were already prepared for things to be unfair.

(Thankfully, we stuck with it and enjoyed much of the later stuff, and eventually finished the whole module and decided not to continue to the second half.)

[MinotaurWarrior]

Relevant enemy statistics:
HP: 57
AC: 17
Speed: 30'
Saves: +6 Str, +1 Dex, +5 Con, +0 Int, +2 Wis, +1 Cha
Skills: +6 Athletics
Senses: Blindsight 10', darkvision 60', PP 14

Actions:
- 4d10 damage lightning breath at 30' line (5-6 recharge)

2 attacks with either:
- Greatsword (+6 for 2d6+4 at 19-20/x2)
- Spear (+6 for 1d6+4 at 19-20/x2 and 20'/60' range if thrown) [only a single spear apparently so if thrown, he can only attack once]

AND

Action Surge


So, how silly can you get with party buffs at level 1?

Warforged fighter, defense fighting style, chain+shield.

Two forge clerics both used their class feature on your armor and shield. One casts shield of faith on you, the other used bless. A third cleric or Druid uses resistance. They also marry you and dedicate you (two castings of ceremony).

So now your AC is 26, and you get +3d4 on your first save, 2d4 thereafter.

Multiple changeling warlocks give you magic stones, for 1d6+4 attacks with +6 to hit.

A changeling bard casts heroism on you, for +4 THP

And let's say you've got 15STR, 16 Dex, 16 Con. So 17 HP and +5+2or3d4 Dex saves.

I don't know this guy's DC on the breath attack, but I think this may be good enough to win head-on.

Your DPR is (7.5)/2 + 11/20 = 4.3DPR, so you kill him in ~ 13 rounds on average.

His DPA against you is 11/20 = 0.55, killing you in ~ 30 attacks on average, which is basically 14 rounds.

So, on average, you win. Though it's really really swingy.

[Eldariel]

So, how silly can you get with party buffs at level 1?

Warforged fighter, defense fighting style, chain+shield.

Two forge clerics both used their class feature on your armor and shield. One casts shield of faith on you, the other used bless. A third cleric or Druid uses resistance. They also marry you and dedicate you (two castings of ceremony).

So now your AC is 26, and you get +3d4 on your first save, 2d4 thereafter.

Multiple changeling warlocks give you magic stones, for 1d6+4 attacks with +6 to hit.

A changeling bard casts heroism on you, for +4 THP

And let's say you've got 15STR, 16 Dex, 16 Con. So 17 HP and +5+2or3d4 Dex saves.

I don't know this guy's DC on the breath attack, but I think this may be good enough to win head-on.

Your DPR is (7.5)/2 + 11/20 = 4.3DPR, so you kill him in ~ 13 rounds on average.

His DPA against you is 11/20 = 0.55, killing you in ~ 30 attacks on average, which is basically 14 rounds.

So, on average, you win. Though it's really really swingy.

The breath DC is 13. Here the only problem is that it recovers breath on 5-6, and since you take half damage on a successful save you'll probably die even through Heroism and making the saves. It's about 3 turns to recover the breath so you'd need to recover the 7 HP you lose (you've got 13 + 4 temp and you get hit on average for 11 on a successful save so you take 7 actual damage and first one can be Second Winded). Third breath seems like it'd finally do you in so you've got not quite 13 rounds here; on average 7 rounds assuming breath on 1st round and every recovery thereafter. You'd need it to get a bit unlucky with the recovery. But this seems by far the closest you can get to physically beating it up. One problem is also that Heroism only lasts 1 minute so you only have 10 rounds of HP recovery.

I think this is defensively fine but we'd need to find a faster way to kill it. Perhaps take Dueling Fighting Style instead? +2 to damage should help a fair bit: it would raise your DPR to 5,4 allowing for a kill in 10-11 rounds (10,555... to be exact). Now it would increase the likelihood that he gets you hard; doubling them in fact. But since your primary problem is the breath, not his physical attacks, I'm not sure if it might actually be worth it...? Actually, Magic Stone doesn't feel that amazing; if you have a third Forge Cleric, your own Rapier will be +1 meaning you'll be attacking at +6 for 1d8+4 or 1d8+6, which is actually better than the Magic Stones (4,9 DPR without Dueling, 6 with). So we can just forget about those. This actually drops enemy durability to 12 rounds without or 9-10 rounds with Dueling. Oh, and you actually forgot to account for Bless here: +6+1d4 hits 67,5% of the time of which 5% is still crits so 0,625 * 8,5 + 0,05 * 13 = 5,9625 so it's actually on average under 10 rounds to take the enemy down with this setup (which is necessary here since with Bless and Heroism, they both run out in 1 min's time - even if you start the fight immediately after getting buffed you'll be cutting it close). Dueling would come out at 7,3125 for an 8 round kill. A tough choice: Dueling gives you leeway in fight duration and lets you avoid excess breaths but OTOH Defense does mitigate vast majority of enemy attacks.

Actually, just making the character a Vuman instead and going the Shield Master route is plain better. It can keep the Defense Fighting Style (since you lose another point of AC) but Shield Master is crucial since it gives bonus to the Dex saves and allows negating the breath which means there's no timer on this fight (making the defensive . The fact that you take hits at slightly higher likelihood is more than offset by the fact that it is physically possible to survive the third breath due to being able to ignore the half damage. If you want the last point of AC, just marry a third fellow. :smallamused:


Okay, that's actually pretty good. Now I think we should consider how small a party we can achieve sufficient buffing with. This is of course the extreme case where you have infinite at-will first level buffing resources available but the normal party is going to be a party of 4; even if you do have some resources available on all the casters, you'll only have 3 of them. The most important ones seem to be the two Forge Clerics and the one Bard (though I'm not sure if the 4 HP Heroism is big enough that you'd need to invest a character on it - 3 HP Heroism seems plenty and the third Forge Cleric would be a pretty big boon), which is conveniently a good 1st level party anyways. Hmm... That third Forge Cleric does make the whole deal much better though. How about not enhancing the armor? Enhanced shield is great for Shield Master too giving you much better Dex saves but you could potentially just enhance the weapon and the armor.

Alternatively, the PC could just be a Cleric themselves and just enhance their own item. But then they lack two HP and the Defense Fighting Style so I'm not sure if it's worth it. At least a third Ceremony caster; I guess he could marry his whole party to make up for the lost AC. But OTOH Dueling Fighting Style would be big. Getting to kill the enemy in 8 rounds is really massive here since it reduces the probabilities of getting ganked so I think sticking to a Fighter and then just skipping on either the armor enhancement or the Heroism is the way to go. I guess nothing is stopping the third Ceremony from being cast anyways since it has such an immense duration.

[da newt]

V Human for shield master, max dex and con, blessed, shield of faith, heroism, forge cleric magic items, temp hp, poisoned weapon ...

Is a fighting style and 2nd wind more beneficial than RAGE and resistance?

[Eldariel]

War Cleric is actually an interesting alternative to Fighter and Barbarian. Divine Favor gives +2,5 damage per hit and if they can maintain it for one turn, they can get a bonus attack about twice with a reasonable chance of success. I think it ultimately leads to a faster victory though of course, there are way more variables with the Concentration suddenly becoming a thing. But if we have a +6 to attack 1d8+4 weapon and cast Divine Favor and successfully get two attacks off and have Bless active, that's 7,775 per attack for 15,55 average damage. It's a bit over 7 attacks to drop the Enemy this way but the key difference is that the bonus action attack means that can be done in 4-5 turns. I think we're on to something here; this way it's really quite likely for our hero to win. Of course, alternatively it's possible to also just hit with Inflict Wounds or Guiding Bolt but of course, that costs you a spell. With two per day, Divine Favor x2 or Divine Favor and Healing Word seem like the way to go (you never wanna skip your attack since you need to finish this ASAP) and since your stats will be 16 Dex / 16 Con, your spell attack will be mediocre anyways (+4 vs. +6 on your weapon attacks). Though I guess going 16/14/16 is reasonable if we're just planning on not being hit very much.

As for Barb, it's good but Rage isn't that useful since the primary issue is the breath weapon; though neither of course does much there. With Ceremony we can reach AC high enough to mostly not be bothered by Enemy's melee. Potentially still the best option just due to having d12 HD for those couple of extra HP.

[Unoriginal]

If not going for the "no breath attack" plan, being a Blue Dragonborn would help. Or a Blue Dragon Sorcerer.

[JackPhoenix]

I guess nothing is stopping the third Ceremony from being cast anyways since it has such an immense duration.

Well, except the same thing that stops the 2nd Ceremony: "The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap."