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Cyclone231
2007-11-02, 07:39 PM
Are there any illithids whose skeletons do not resemble their base form to such an extent that it just looks like a malformed human/roper/reptiloid skeleton?

Edit for Clarity:
The main idea is that in this setting, there was an ancient epoch where the world was ruled by the illithids (arcane illithids, not psionic illithids, so they died from overpopulation). While there are still a handful of illithids, most people don't know what an actual illithid is - so when they find the fossils of illithids, they ascribe them some mythological properties, creating a mythic, ancient race of god men or monsters (depending on the culture in question).

martyboy74
2007-11-02, 07:41 PM
Um...

That's what they are.


Alright, probably not in the sense of 'malformed' he meant, but it's still true...

RandomNPC
2007-11-02, 07:48 PM
templated illithids.

also, homebrews.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 08:05 PM
Illithids don't have skeletons.

StickMan
2007-11-02, 08:08 PM
Illithids don't have skeletons.

There is a plethora of pictures that disagree with you. There are alot of pictures of Gith with Illithid sculls as trophies. First one I can think of is the from the Psiconics handbook Illithid Slayer class.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-02, 08:15 PM
Illithids don't have skeletons.

Illithids are mutated humanoids between around 4 to 6 feet with warm blood (mainly humans).

Oh yes, they do.

martyboy74
2007-11-02, 08:17 PM
To the OP:

LoM (Lords of Madness) has an entire chapter on Illithids, their culture, their biology, their origin, and how they're 'born'.

The birth, which is what is important here, goes like this:
1. Illlithids capture humanoid/roper.
2. Illithids take the surviving tadpole out the the elder brain's pool.
3. Illithids place said tapdole into the ear of said humanoid/roper.
4. Tadpole wriggles into subject's brain, and eats it, rapidly growing until it fills the skull.
5. Subject grows facial tentacles, and turns...whatever color illithids are.
6. Subject=Illithid.

The process is called ceremorphosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid#Illithid_biology).

SurlySeraph
2007-11-02, 08:25 PM
If you need a fossil that's clearly recognizable as an illithid, make it a naturally mummified one. Have the party find it either in a desert or mountaintop (where low humidity slows decomposition) or underwater in tar or a peat bog.

Have them find 2 or 3 partly shriveled, mummified illithids. Then when they start picking up the next one... undead illithid. :smallamused:

Clementx
2007-11-02, 08:54 PM
Gaunt, flattened, and jawless skeletons suggest illithids, or well-mutilated humans. Like most intelligent creatures, the fossils are going to be behavioral more than anatomical. A cluster of skulls with bore holes in them along with the mysterious skull is much more likely to register as, "Boy, I am glad this thing is dead".

Cyclone231
2007-11-02, 09:06 PM
If you need a fossil that's clearly recognizable as an illithid, make it a naturally mummified one. Have the party find it either in a desert or mountaintop (where low humidity slows decomposition) or underwater in tar or a peat bog.

Have them find 2 or 3 partly shriveled, mummified illithids. Then when they start picking up the next one... undead illithid. :smallamused:That's a good idea.

However... I'm sort of looking for an aggregate cultural thing, rather than a specific one-time-only thing here.

The main idea is that in this setting, there was an ancient epoch where the world was ruled by the illithids (arcane illithids, not psionic illithids, so they died from overpopulation). While there are still a handful of illithids, most people don't know what an actual illithid is - so when they find the fossils of illithids, they ascribe them some mythological properties, creating a mythic, ancient race of god men or monsters (depending on the culture in question).

AslanCross
2007-11-02, 09:13 PM
Remember that dead illithids have their brains extracted upon death to be thrown into the Elder Brain's pool, so their skulls are likely to have holes as well.

Jack Mann
2007-11-02, 09:49 PM
To the OP:

LoM (Lords of Madness) has an entire chapter on Illithids, their culture, their biology, their origin, and how they're 'born'.

The birth, which is what is important here, goes like this:
1. Illlithids capture humanoid/roper.
2. Illithids take the surviving tadpole out the the elder brain's pool.
3. Illithids place said tapdole into the ear of said humanoid/roper.
4. Tadpole wriggles into subject's brain, and eats it, rapidly growing until it fills the skull.
5. Subject grows facial tentacles, and turns...whatever color illithids are.
6. Subject=Illithid.

The process is called ceremorphosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illithid#Illithid_biology).

Yes and no. It's not so much that the subject turns into the illithid as the body is taken over. The actual illithid is more akin to a parasite infecting the host, biologically speaking. You, the host, are effectively killed. It just takes over your body. Your body doesn't become the illithid so much as it's inhabited by the illthid.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-02, 10:50 PM
Yes and no. It's not so much that the subject turns into the illithid as the body is taken over. The actual illithid is more akin to a parasite infecting the host, biologically speaking. You, the host, are effectively killed. It just takes over your body. Your body doesn't become the illithid so much as it's inhabited by the illthid.

That is correct. THe illithid itself grows to fit the body it is inserted in, though an illithid not inserted in a body becomes a worm-like creature (neothillid (sp?)) so you can think of it as a really big tapeworm in a corpse...that's really disgusting.

Dervag
2007-11-02, 10:58 PM
If you need a fossil that's clearly recognizable as an illithid, make it a naturally mummified one. Have the party find it either in a desert or mountaintop (where low humidity slows decomposition) or underwater in tar or a peat bog.

Have them find 2 or 3 partly shriveled, mummified illithids. Then when they start picking up the next one... undead illithid. :smallamused:For more scary-as-hell things that can happen when you start picking around with the fossils of powerful elder races, see "At the Mountains of Madness" by H.P. Lovecraft!


Remember that dead illithids have their brains extracted upon death to be thrown into the Elder Brain's pool, so their skulls are likely to have holes as well.Since fossilization usually happens to creatures that get buried in a mudslide or something like that so that scavengers don't get a good shot at the body, it might well be that this particular mind flayer wasn't available for brain extraction.


That is correct. THe illithid itself grows to fit the body it is inserted in, though an illithid not inserted in a body becomes a worm-like creature (neothillid (sp?)) so you can think of it as a really big tapeworm in a corpse...that's really disgusting.When is thinking about illithids not disgusting?

AslanCross
2007-11-02, 11:58 PM
Since fossilization usually happens to creatures that get buried in a mudslide or something like that so that scavengers don't get a good shot at the body, it might well be that this particular mind flayer wasn't available for brain extraction.



True, though I was thinking more about mind flayers that were actually buried ceremonially. On the other hand, I don't think Lords of Madness says anything more about them other than that their brains are tossed into the Elder Brain pool. They might just throw the bodies away.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 12:04 AM
True, though I was thinking more about mind flayers that were actually buried ceremonially. On the other hand, I don't think Lords of Madness says anything more about them other than that their brains are tossed into the Elder Brain pool. They might just throw the bodies away.

Given the illithid reputation for efficiency and lack of squeamishness, I suspect not.

MaxMahem
2007-11-03, 12:42 AM
Actually I believe in some setting Illithids are actually from the future, so their should be little fossilized remains of them. Failing that, they are almost always extra-planar and probably haven't been on your particular material plane long enough to leave a record behind.

Tengu
2007-11-03, 12:53 AM
They are from the future, but the destination of their time travel was thousands of years ago, not yesterday. Fossils are fine.

Nonah_Me
2007-11-03, 12:59 PM
Most fossils of human(oids) would be found in settled or semi-settled areas. Ithilids aren't likely to abandon a city (especially if there was/is an elder brain there), so the only time one would find an "empty" ithilid settlement is when someone happens upon said settlement after is destruction. As this would probably have been done by githyanki or githzerai, I'm willing to bet that event he skeletons of said ithilids would be destroyed.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 01:08 PM
Given the illithid reputation for efficiency and lack of squeamishness, I suspect not.

What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-11-03, 01:18 PM
What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

Exactly- and I think even Illithid efficiency would balk at feeding dead illithids to thralls. After all, it probably tastes like squid, so they might develop a taste for it...

I think Illlithids probably either cremate their dead, or mummify them in some elaborate way.

Cyclone231
2007-11-03, 01:19 PM
What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

Dude, what are you talking about? Illithids consume brains in order to feed their human bodies with chemicals, enzymes and psychic energy that their illithid brain does not produce. Being that another illithid probably didn't die from starvation, there would be quantities of all the necessary chemicals, enzymes, and perhaps even a bit of leftover psychic energy, given that the illithid nervous system is far more complex and intertwined with the body than a human's is.

Kaelaroth
2007-11-03, 01:50 PM
Can someone explain the illithids are from the future thing? I'm very confused, and rather worried.

*looks under the bed for time-travelling mind-flayers*

"AAAAH! Squidy-Thing!"


Where did they come from? Where was this detailed?

Cyclone231
2007-11-03, 01:59 PM
Can someone explain the illithids are from the future thing? I'm very confused, and rather worried.

*looks under the bed for time-travelling mind-flayers*

"AAAAH! Squidy-Thing!"


Where did they come from? Where was this detailed?Lords of Madness, p. 70-71, "The Whispering Shadow".

Basically, they had an awesome empire near the end of time, then some unknown enemy came, and the surviving mind flayer's jumped in a time machine. They started a new empire and took Gith slaves. Unfortunately, the Gith rebelled and destroyed all their awesome future-magi-psi-tech, and then the mind flayer's lost their empire.

By the by, the Mind Flayer's massive eugenics project (the infanticide of all but the best tadpoles) will likely lead to their second (third?) empire being stronger than the last.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 03:21 PM
What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

Possibly... as Cyclone said, they do need to eat other stuff. I know that thrall bodies, for example, are rendered into a pasty gruel and fed to other thralls. Possibly they wouldn't stoop to using their dead bodies to feed thralls, but they do require other sustenance; it would be wasteful to constantly eat brains. They're not that easy to come by.

So... they might be used for food, or for horrible grafting experiments. Illithids are inventive. Your mind and body belong to the Elder Brain in life and death!

MrNexx
2007-11-03, 04:34 PM
True, though I was thinking more about mind flayers that were actually buried ceremonially. On the other hand, I don't think Lords of Madness says anything more about them other than that their brains are tossed into the Elder Brain pool. They might just throw the bodies away.

Soylent Mauve is Illithids!

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 04:37 PM
Basically, they had an awesome empire near the end of time, then some unknown enemy came

Yes, the illithids literally owned the universe until time itself ran out. They had blotted out every star, every sun, and existance was one giant pit of the blackest dispair. They won. There were tiny pockets where they didn't have an iron grip. Fragments of planes that had rebels and freedom fighters, and the outer planes still had sections where mindflayers didn't rule everything. But even at this point, the illithid controlled MOST of hell AND the abyss. We're talking the empire to end all empires.


They started a new empire and took Gith slaves. Unfortunately, the Gith rebelled and destroyed all their awesome future-magi-psi-tech, and then the mind flayer's lost their empire.

Which could very well bite them on the hind-quarters.

See, the mindflayers had one goal in coming back. "Don't screw up the future". Every illithid plot, and scheme, and plan, and action is intended to do one thing: Ensure the illithid empire comes back. When possible, they want to accelerate that process so they control the universe for even longer, and can continue to control more and more of, not only phyiscal existance, but time itself, until they've gone back far enough that their empire spans the beginning to the end of time.

And what do they do?

They accidently create a race of illithid hating, naturally psionic mindflayer hunters hell bent on their total destruction.

They might actually lose this time around, thanks to our good friends, the Gith.

martyboy74
2007-11-03, 04:38 PM
If the gith aren't too busy killing each other first. The illithids are fairly subtle, y'know.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 04:43 PM
Oh sure. It's not like the mindflayers have suddenly lost the "War to rule the universe". They're patient, smarter than all of us, have knowledge about the future we simply don't, and thrive off of control and manipulation. They're also ruled by elite giant brains who do nothing bit sit and think about how to take over the universe.

I'm just sayin, they DID come back in time with the primary goal of "Don't screw up and destroy our empire before it starts", and then they made a race of psionic warriors who have a racial hatred of mindflayers. Good game illithids, good game.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-03, 05:07 PM
Yes, the illithids literally owned the universe until time itself ran out. They had blotted out every star, every sun, and existance was one giant pit of the blackest dispair. They won. There were tiny pockets where they didn't have an iron grip. Fragments of planes that had rebels and freedom fighters, and the outer planes still had sections where mindflayers didn't rule everything. But even at this point, the illithid controlled MOST of hell AND the abyss. We're talking the empire to end all empires.
Major Overstatement. They controlled their universe-not the entire multiverse. They never controlled any outer planes-no mortal race can. A single planar lord or Greater God may spend 10 minutes and say "I wish my realm had no air". And poof, an entire layer of a plane has no air and the invading illithids die. Or, "I wish my realm were 100 times hotter". And suddenly the invading illithids are incinerated. A Greater God or Planar Lord that wants to mess with a mortal race spends 1 year to alter the Time trait for his realm. Say, for every minute in the material plane, a million years pass for the god's domain. Then the greater god has fun using Life and Death from his own realm to kill illithids. For every minute that passes in the Material Plane, the Greater God can kill 5.256.000.000.000 Illithids. So, in a single minute the entire Illithid empire goes poof.

So no, the Illithids never controlled anything beyond their own universe.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 05:17 PM
They almost ended the blood war. That's pretty big right there.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 05:28 PM
So no, the Illithids never controlled anything beyond their own universe.

I think you're missing the fact that mortals can (and often do) ascend to divinity. What makes you think the Illithids never had any Illithid gods on their side screwing with the other side?

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-03, 05:32 PM
Stopping the Blood War is easier than you may think. That illithid backstory applies to Torilspace alone-not the entire Multiverse (e.g. for Ebberon, illithids are minions of the Daelkyr, the lords of Xoriat and for other Realities they may not exist at all). Hell and the Abyss of Torilspace are limited in scope, and their Planar Lords are wimps-e.g. Demogorgon, the greatest planar lord, is only 39 HD. A big enough deity could stop the blood war.

And even now, Toril alone has more than 100 deities tied to it, at least twelve of which have Greater Deity status. If the Illithids even tried to conquer Toril, Mystra could simply deny them magic. Oghma could simply deny them knowledge. Chauntea could cause earthquakes in all their cities almost simultaneously.


I think you're missing the fact that mortals can (and often do) ascend to divinity. What makes you think the Illithids never had any Illithid gods on their side screwing with the other side?

Yes, Illithids had Illsessine (sp?), patron of Illithids on their side. That is why they controlled their own universe in the end. But one deity-even an entire pantheon-is not enough to control more than one universe and, in exceptional cases, not enough to control one world. E.g. Toril alone currently has no less than FIVE pantheons.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-03, 05:33 PM
I think you're missing the fact that mortals can (and often do) ascend to divinity. What makes you think the Illithids never had any Illithid gods on their side screwing with the other side?

You mean like Ilsensine?

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 05:34 PM
Ilsensine, present-day god of illithids, is, in fact, a greater deity. In the future, there's presumably a pantheon of them... plus so many epic-level elder brains and ulitharid psions that any greater deity would have trouble.

And the illithids very nearly did cause an end to the Blood War, although it's unstated whether that was because they were actually invading the Lower Planes or simply because they were powerful enough to.

If you've made Asmodeus think about calling off the Blood War, you've accomplished something. No celestial realm or god has ever accomplished that.


Stopping the Blood War is easier than you may think. That illithid backstory applies to Torilspace alone-not the entire Multiverse (e.g. for Ebberon, illithids are minions of the Daelkyr, the lords of Xoriat and for other Realities they may not exist at all). Hell and the Abyss of Torilspace are limited in scope, and their Planar Lords are wimps-e.g. Demogorgon, the greatest planar lord, is only 39 HD. A big enough deity could stop the blood war.

No, it's the standard generic cosmology backstory, in which the archdevils and demon lords aren't even statted out. And in that cosmology, Asmodeus is also powerful enough to keep the various lawful evil gods from taking over the Hells.

All this makes you wonder what the unknown threat is, doesn't it? I think Vorpal Tribble had a neat idea involving a sort of aboleth-in-reverse—instead of being creatures from the last universe who survived when it ended and migrated to this one, they were creatures from the next universe, here to make sure that this one ended properly so theirs could begin.

AslanCross
2007-11-03, 05:37 PM
What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

Lords of Madness tells us that Illithids eat other food too (mostly internal organs). Just that the brains give them the necessary biological and psionic juice for their elaborate brains (essentially their whole body) to continue working.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-03, 05:41 PM
No, it's the standard generic cosmology backstory, in which the archdevils and demon lords aren't even statted out. And in that cosmology, Asmodeus is also powerful enough to keep the various lawful evil gods from taking over the Hells.
Yeah, the same standard, generic cosmology where, in the BoVD, Demogorgon is 39 HD and Asmodeus less than that? The Great Wheel applies to Toril and Greyhawk only. Eberron and Dragonlance have their own planes systems and so do most other campaign settings. Illithids never ruled anything there.

AslanCross
2007-11-03, 05:43 PM
Yeah, the same standard, generic cosmology where, in the BoVD, Demogorgon is 39 HD and Asmodeus less than that? The Great Wheel applies to Toril and Greyhawk only. Eberron and Dragonlance have their own planes systems and so do most other campaign settings. Illithids never ruled anything there.

I'm pretty sure the Demogorgon and Asmodeus that are statted out their are aspects, not the actual thing.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-03, 05:44 PM
Yeah, the same standard, generic cosmology where, in the BoVD, Demogorgon is 39 HD and Asmodeus less than that? The Great Wheel applies to Toril and Greyhawk only. Eberron and Dragonlance have their own planes systems and so do most other campaign settings. Illithids never ruled anything there.

Guess what? "Generic background story" means "Greyhawk".

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 05:49 PM
As of the more recent Fiendish Codexes, those are aspects. The actual beings are not statted.

And... well, yeah. In Ebberon and Dragonlance, they obviously didn't threaten to end the Blood War, because they didn't come from the future and there is no Blood War. Same for a lot of homebrews. But in the standard cosmology, they did, and the Blood War was something that nobody else had come close to stopping.

Gralamin
2007-11-03, 05:53 PM
As has been mentioned, the backstory applies to Greyhawk by default, as there is nothing that saids explicitly that it applies to Eberron or to Forgotten Realms, or to Dragonlance. Also, The (3.0) BoVD versions of the Demon Lords and Archdevils are superseded by the updated source, meaning the Fiendish Codexes (Codexi?). This most recent version of Asmodeous is just an Aspect.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-03, 05:55 PM
Guess what? "Generic background story" means "Greyhawk".
Yeah, that's what I meant. The Illithids conquered the distant future of one universe all right. But not every single reality everywhere. In Toril, time-travel is inhibited so their backstory does not apply. In Eberron they are the created slaves of the Daelkyr among many others. In Dragonlance I'm not sure they even exist. In mythological earth, I'm sure they don't exist. And so on. We may have one Multiverse but it contains many realities (campaign settings).

AslanCross
2007-11-03, 05:58 PM
...meaning the Fiendish Codexes (Codexi?).

Codices.

Anyway, whatever the Illithids may have done in their past/future, their plans right now sure don't involve rainbows and sunshine. Snuffing out every star is quite an ambition, but it sure is creepy.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-03, 06:18 PM
Blotting out the Sun?

Is it just me or does it make no sense for a parasetic race to be attempting to destroy the environment of what they need to survive (ie humans tend to multiply best in conditions of warth and light and such)

Now complete world/Galaxy/Universe domination complete with breeding farms and slave labour produced palaces, that OK, blotting out suns and all non-illithid life, not so much.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-03, 06:23 PM
Blotting out the Sun?

Is it just me or does it make no sense for a parasetic race to be attempting to destroy the environment of what they need to survive (ie humans tend to multiply best in conditions of warth and light and such)

Now complete world/Galaxy/Universe domination complete with breeding farms and slave labour produced palaces, that OK, blotting out suns and all non-illithid life, not so much.

Part of their eugenics project was to breed races that didn't need sunlight but were able to be viable reproductive sources for illithid tadpoles.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-03, 06:39 PM
Part of their eugenics project was to breed races that didn't need sunlight but were able to be viable reproductive sources for illithid tadpoles.

Ah, that would be fine then... although I'm still somewhat dubious of the whole "get rid of stellar fusion" idea, no wonder they rule over the end of the universe if they get rid of the main source of energy in the universe, after that it's entropy allllll the way, nuclear can only get you so far. And I doubt that magic or Psi could completely replace a stars output, even with epic. across an entire Universe. For Ever.

Just seems easier to breed an Illithid that has melonin in it's skin. and wears sun glasses.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 06:44 PM
And I doubt that magic or Psi could completely replace a stars output, even with epic.

Bahahahaha. Oh wow, that was a good one.

Oh, you were serious :smallconfused: :smallwink:

mostlyharmful
2007-11-03, 06:46 PM
Bahahahaha. Oh wow, that was a good one.

Oh, you were serious :smallconfused: :smallwink:

Not entirely, it just shouldn't. stupid epic mechanics...

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 06:47 PM
Yeah, I get what you mean in an "wow, there's THAT much magic in this world?" kind of way. But this is a mindflayer empire we're talking about, the sheer amount of psionic energy from that many elder brains unopposed is mind-boggling (no pun intended).

And as a rule of thumb... epic magic has no rule of thumb. It'll do whatever you're trying to make it do, it's just a question of how much planning you're willing to sit through.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 06:51 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant. The Illithids conquered the distant future of one universe all right. But not every single reality everywhere. In Toril, time-travel is inhibited so their backstory does not apply. In Eberron they are the created slaves of the Daelkyr among many others. In Dragonlance I'm not sure they even exist. In mythological earth, I'm sure they don't exist. And so on. We may have one Multiverse but it contains many realities (campaign settings).

Ah, right. I think the original confusion stemmed from the use of the word 'multiverse'—by which, I'm pretty sure the person meant that universe and a lot of its Outer Planes, not all the settings combined Spelljammer-style.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-03, 06:52 PM
Yeah, I get what you mean in an "wow, there's THAT much magic in this world?" kind of way. But this is a mindflayer empire we're talking about, the sheer amount of psionic energy from that many elder brains unopposed is mind-boggling (no pun intended).

And as a rule of thumb... epic magic has no rule of thumb. It'll do whatever you're trying to make it do, it's just a question of how much planning you're willing to sit through.

Still strikes me as about as sensible as trying to cross an ocean by draining it rather than say, building a boat. The amount of time, resources, and power nessecary for this is kind of rediculous, on a universe wide scale... esspecially when you compare it to the amount of effort that just adapting to a world with sunshine. Yes they might have different priorities to us but just the sheer inefficiency to a race with an average Int of 18 in it's effective larval stage, and why the heck do the elder brains even care what the surface is like anyway, they never leave their protective environments, which could just as easily be on the surface as deep underground.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 06:56 PM
Still strikes me as about as sensible as trying to cross an ocean by draining it rather than say, building a boat. The amount of time, resources, and power nessecary for this is kind of rediculous, on a universe wide scale... esspecially when you compare it to the amount of effort that just adapting to a world with sunshine

It's not just that they don't do well in sunlight. They hate it, too; Lords of Madness describes their aversion as similar to the human aversion to being immersed in blood. Most humans wouldn't want to adapt so that they'd be fine with swimming in blood, I don't think...

Besides, it was sunless in the future, and they don't want to mess anything up. Stars die anyway.

Given that every single illithid can contribute 5th-level powers to epic psionic rituals, I think they can manage to produce permanent heating for their sunless worlds.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-11-03, 06:57 PM
Just goes to show, you make someone a natural genius and they think they can do anything. It's been the bane of mad scientists & psionic empires since the beginning of time.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 07:02 PM
Ah, right. I think the original confusion stemmed from the use of the word 'multiverse'—by which, I'm pretty sure the person meant that universe and a lot of its Outer Planes, not all the settings combined Spelljammer-style.

The Great Wheel is a better catchall term... even though that can refer to the Planescape setting, too. Which includes Spelljammer. Which includes everything but Dark Sun, I think...

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2007-11-03, 07:09 PM
It includes Dark Sun. You just can't get into Dark Sun. Sort of how you can't get into Ravenloft.

Clementx
2007-11-03, 07:14 PM
I'm just sayin, they DID come back in time with the primary goal of "Don't screw up and destroy our empire before it starts", and then they made a race of psionic warriors who have a racial hatred of mindflayers. Good game illithids, good game.
I guess you missed the part where the Gith evolve into the Mind Flayers at the end of time. So yeah, very good game, getting Mom and Dad to kiss at the Enchantment Under the Ooze ball.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 07:15 PM
Illithid fossils.... raven-...

I. Oh yeah. I'm gonna have to hit my DM with three words of inspiration, to be used as ammunition against us at a later date. "Mindflayers in Ravenloft". Oh baby, I can taste it.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 07:15 PM
It includes Dark Sun. You just can't get into Dark Sun. Sort of how you can't get into Ravenloft.

You can get into Ravenloft. You just can't get out again.

Unless it's to study at Sigil Prep.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 07:17 PM
I guess you missed the part where the Gith evolve into the Mind Flayers at the end of time. So yeah, very good game, getting Mom and Dad to kiss at the Enchantment Under the Ooze ball.

I think we did miss that... Is it stated anywhere?

There's a Ravenloft domain ruled by mind flayers, I believe.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 07:19 PM
I think we did miss that... Is it stated anywhere?

I just checked lords of madness, it's not there (at least, not in the section about time travel (at least, not that i can see)).

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 07:23 PM
It would be fun if Giths did end up evolving into Illithids, though. It would mean the Illithids actually managed to set up a stable time loop instead of changing history.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 07:25 PM
Which is fairly likely, given how brutally intelligent and calculating they are.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 07:26 PM
Which is fairly likely, given how brutally intelligent and calculating they are.

Except their intention was to create a multiverse-spanning empire that exists for all time. If they did create a stable time loop, it was an accident.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 07:29 PM
Maybe it boils down to a difference between stated intention and realistic intention. Like having a police force. The stated goal being to stop all crime, everywhere. The realistic goal being to stop as much crime as possible.

Either way, it's an interesting, but depressing, idea.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-03, 07:34 PM
I personally thought they put the stars out because they needed the power.

Belteshazzar
2007-11-03, 07:55 PM
I thought that only Eberron was never a part of the Great Wheel. Greyhawk, Toril, Dragonlance( if I remember correctly it was sundered from the rest of reality by some divine power or something), Even Ravenloft was just a weird one way pocket in the Wheel. Of course I could be wrong.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-03, 08:01 PM
Even Ebberon can be accessed through the Plane of Shadow, which touches every single Material Plane.

D&D cosmology? Complicated.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-11-03, 08:20 PM
Either way, it's an interesting, but depressing, idea.

Yes, and unfitting with D&D anyway. I know the illithids are part of D&D's nod to the Cthulhu mythos, but the whole "the future's doomed and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it" feeling behind the idea doesn't fit a heroic fantasy game very well.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-11-03, 08:31 PM
All this makes you wonder what the unknown threat is, doesn't it? I think Vorpal Tribble had a neat idea involving a sort of aboleth-in-reverse—instead of being creatures from the last universe who survived when it ended and migrated to this one, they were creatures from the next universe, here to make sure that this one ended properly so theirs could begin.
Eh? Wasn't me. I specifically wrote up the the last universe for the aboleths that gave way to the present day one.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-03, 08:31 PM
Which is why they throw you a bone, with the "the illithid know that in rare circumstances, the future can be changed." and going on about how it's a concern of theirs.

So if you're playing with a cthulhuish mindset, the future is doomed. If you'd rather have some heroic fantasy going on, then get your sword out and start hacking elder brain meat.

Belteshazzar
2007-11-03, 09:30 PM
Or accept the future and try to change the makeup of Isildisine through merging with him. It may sound ridiculous but one could possibly change Isildisine's cause and makeup by merging enough minds of opposed alignment with him.

The reason there are no other Illithid deities is because all Illithad merge into the Elder Brains which then merge their energies to create their deity. He is a conglomerate entity so one this may work but it is a long shot and may take a few thousand years, a few helms of opposite alignment but it may just work. Of course if this fails it may be better to simply use the Annulis on him with a fifty percent chance to succeed.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-03, 10:11 PM
Or accept the future and try to change the makeup of Isildisine through merging with him. It may sound ridiculous but one could possibly change Isildisine's cause and makeup by merging enough minds of opposed alignment with him.

The reason there are no other Illithid deities is because all Illithad merge into the Elder Brains which then merge their energies to create their deity. He is a conglomerate entity so one this may work but it is a long shot and may take a few thousand years, a few helms of opposite alignment but it may just work. Of course if this fails it may be better to simply use the Annulis on him with a fifty percent chance to succeed.

Aren't Islesininisesisennienseine and the mind flayers held in check, to some extent, by all of the other horrific evils (copyright Howard Phillips Lovecraft) - Piscis (the aboleth one), Demogorgon, all that sort of stuff. I remember reading about a sort of planar anthropic principle - the fact that there is a universe of some sort existing contemporary to say, Mialee, Krusk, Redgar, and Lidda is a testament to the fact that no single world-eating gribbly is more powerful than the others, and thus can't take over history?

13_CBS
2007-11-03, 10:20 PM
What? Do you think they'd eat the corpses? Illithids only eat brains (all the nutrients they need can be synthesised or extracted from brains). So the only part of an Illithid corpse they'd actually eat would already be gone, and besides, they are squeamish about eating Illithid brains.

I'm very late to the game, but according to LoM mind flayers either NEED to or CAN get a lot of their nutrients from the organs, flesh, etc. of other creatures.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-11-03, 10:29 PM
I'm very late to the game, but according to LoM mind flayers either NEED to or CAN get a lot of their nutrients from the organs, flesh, etc. of other creatures.
Would you be able to specify where? I've read that book several times and never read anything close to that.

13_CBS
2007-11-03, 10:41 PM
It's a bit vague, but here ya go:


Lords of Madness, pg. 62, under "Internal Anatomy":

[The Illithid digestive system] scavenges enzymes, hormones, and most important, psychic energy. Illithids are known for consuming brains, but they eat other food as well, most of which contains various amounts of these needed enzymes and hormones. Internal organs are good sources, and they rank high on illithid menus. Brains are ripe with all three and are the only external source of psychic energy.

Emphasis mine.

So summary: mind flayers can get a lot of nutrients from organs, but brains are preferable due to their efficiency (all your vitamins, minerals, carbs, proteins, and fats in one easy meal!) and the fact that they give psychic energy.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-03, 10:53 PM
As far as the Illithid history/future thing, here is how I always use it, based both on cannon and my own ideas, take it or leave it:

Future (past for mind-flayers): Mind-flayers have taken over all of the multiverse, except the nine-hells and the abyss. They are trying to stop demons from destroying everything, and nine-hells are trying to stop them from gaining control over everything (because they want a piece of it). In a cataclysmic battle, Illitids lose and must trigger psionic experiment to send them deep into the past, which kills millions of elder brains (leaving only a few hundred left).

Approx. 3000 years before current timeline: Mind-flayers arrive on astral plane and enslave inhabitants there, eventually evolving them into the Gith.

Approx. 1000 years before current timeline: Following Gith rebellion, mind-flayers arrive on material plane, cannot stand sun and wind up in Underdark, following drow. While drow stay realitively close to surface, Mind-flayers continue go to deeper layers.

Current timeline: Mind-flayers are trying to prefect a way to avoid mistakes that landed them in the position to have to go into the past. They are patient, but scheme with both the knowledge that they will control the multiverse and lose everything.

So, if I were to have fossils in my world, I would put them about 1000 years back when they arrived on the material plane and had to search for an abode for about a century or so, living in caves and avoiding the sun. Only anchient dragons and aboleths (or other long lived races) would remember them.

As a side note, aboleths remember time before the gods inwhich they ruled the material plane before the gods decided to inhabit it with their own races.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-03, 10:55 PM
It's a bit vague, but here ya go:

Lords of Madness, pg. 62, under "Internal Anatomy":

"[The Illithid digestive system] scavenges enzymes, hormones, and most important, psychic energy.

Love the knowledge of anatomy by WotC here.

'Yep, running a bit low on blood sugar here ... you know what, I think that I'll have to go an eat someone's pancreas to get by insulin levels back up to scratch again.'

:smallwink:

BardicDuelist
2007-11-03, 11:02 PM
It would be fun if Giths did end up evolving into Illithids, though. It would mean the Illithids actually managed to set up a stable time loop instead of changing history.

Had that happen. They destroyed the anchent illithid race (the one from the future) and thus repeated history. All some crazy scheme by Asmedeous (who as such rules every eventual future, until he is usurped in an apocolypse involving Levistus's release).

Belteshazzar
2007-11-03, 11:14 PM
Aren't Islesininisesisennienseine and the mind flayers held in check, to some extent, by all of the other horrific evils (copyright Howard Phillips Lovecraft) - Piscis (the aboleth one), Demogorgon, all that sort of stuff. I remember reading about a sort of planar anthropic principle - the fact that there is a universe of some sort existing contemporary to say, Mialee, Krusk, Redgar, and Lidda is a testament to the fact that no single world-eating gribbly is more powerful than the others, and thus can't take over history?

Most of those other world eating gribblies with sufficient power to destroy the Great Ganglia don't actually care about any plane or universe in particular. Most of the other Elder Things are too busy being uber in the far planes to actually care about the limited bauble mortals call reality(exceptions being Issildasomething, Ghaunadaur, Piscis, and Mak Thuum Ngatha). Many may not even know or care that they have worshipers or control over anything. It would be like a civilization on a single flake in a box of breakfast cereal who has some members who worship you in their basements.

P.S. Yes I agree with the above poster Lesvestus must eventually win over Asmondius if only for managing to look like a chilling Bob Marley.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-03, 11:19 PM
It would be like a civilization on a single flake in a box of breakfast cereal who has some members who worship you in their basements.

I have three of those. I do care that they exist, but that doesn't mean that when I'm hungry, I won't have a bowl of cereal. Weather or not I happen to eat the flake is rather random.

I think this is how the elder evils feel at least.

Belthezhazzarr: An evil Bob Marley with a rapier. Can't get a much cooler villian, can you? (Pun intended).

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-04, 09:33 AM
So no, the Illithids never controlled anything beyond their own universe.

Which is coincidentally our universe too.


...Which becomes problematic considering I don't think they'd allow religion among thralls and would take steps to...stamp it out if they already hadn't done so (God knows I would, clerics are bad news for a conquering empire). Eventually with no followers the god's lose power and would probably fade away.



....'Course this does nothing to the planar/alignment lords who would still most likely just do what Belial said and then laugh (if their evil) at the pitiful efforts brought against them, but it does keep the illithids out of MOST of the Outer Planes and also coincidentally opens the way to any planar powers who find the existence and presence of gods their only roadblock on the way to conquest...Hrm...which probably leads to massive massive armies between demons, devils, archons, and eladrin since they ain't got nobody holding them back anymore.*


EDIT: BardicDuelist: What on earth are you talking about? I've never heard about Levitus being released, ever. Anywhere. Definitely not in WoTC products so if this is a sick joke or something happening in your game, lemme now so I can stay away. I may like Levitius....but Asmodeus trumps every other being in D&D on my "I wish I could be just like..." list...Not to mention the fact that if Levitius ever did get released Asmodeus probably arranged for it to fulfill his own goals and has more then several contingencies in place should the Lord of the Fifth turn on him. And yes, Big A really is that good, despite precieved coolness.

*In the end, only Asmodeus wins from mind flayer rule since apparently the mind flayers can't even keep their own empire around with out screwing it up.

Gralamin
2007-11-04, 10:01 AM
Levistus? What could he do? Didn't he end up in that ice the last time All Arch Devils decided to attack Asmodeus? (Where Asmodeus came out unscratched, the other had all been beaten.)

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-04, 10:06 AM
Levistus? What could he do? Didn't he end up in that ice the last time All Arch Devils decided to attack Asmodeus? (Where Asmodeus came out unscratched, the other had all been beaten.)

Nah, he got entombed in ice because he killed Asmodeus's lover, something I've always found a little odd, but thats besides the point.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-04, 10:28 AM
It was both a joke and somthing I used in my campaign as a prediction for the future by an elder brain the PCs had a conversation with (long story). Take or leave it, but I always like the idea of the Big A finally being able to rule the cosmos and then being usurped by somthing he thought would be a very minor threat.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-04, 10:41 AM
It was both a joke and somthing I used in my campaign as a prediction for the future by an elder brain the PCs had a conversation with (long story). Take or leave it, but I always like the idea of the Big A finally being able to rule the cosmos and then being usurped by somthing he thought would be a very minor threat.

Yet it sounds like a really interesting story....what was the Elder brain doing talking to the PCs instead of like...eating their brains and dominating them? O.o...


In any case, I'm not a fan of the idea. The idea of the Greatest Lawful Evil being (and one of the most powerful beings period) falling to the classic cliche 'minor threat that he overlooked/underestimated' just..just........yeah. We differ of opinion here.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-04, 02:01 PM
BardicDuelist: What on earth are you talking about? I've never heard about Levitus being released, ever. Anywhere. Definitely not in WoTC products so if this is a sick joke or something happening in your game, lemme now so I can stay away. I may like Levitius....but Asmodeus trumps every other being in D&D on my "I wish I could be just like..." list...Not to mention the fact that if Levitius ever did get released Asmodeus probably arranged for it to fulfill his own goals and has more then several contingencies in place should the Lord of the Fifth turn on him. And yes, Big A really is that good, despite precieved coolness.

*In the end, only Asmodeus wins from mind flayer rule since apparently the mind flayers can't even keep their own empire around with out screwing it up.

There is a suplement that says Levistus gets out occasionally, the Tyrant's of the Nine Hells has him released annually to attend the Lords of the Nine coference/bragging-session just so Asmodeus can rub his nose in it. He spends the entire time sulking and then gets teleported back to his iceberg... Every. Damn. Year. Now that's gotta get annoying after a few hunderd years.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-04, 02:53 PM
Major Overstatement. They controlled their universe-not the entire multiverse. They never controlled any outer planes-no mortal race can. A single planar lord or Greater God may spend 10 minutes and say "I wish my realm had no air". And poof, an entire layer of a plane has no air and the invading illithids die. Or, "I wish my realm were 100 times hotter". And suddenly the invading illithids are incinerated. A Greater God or Planar Lord that wants to mess with a mortal race spends 1 year to alter the Time trait for his realm. Say, for every minute in the material plane, a million years pass for the god's domain. Then the greater god has fun using Life and Death from his own realm to kill illithids. For every minute that passes in the Material Plane, the Greater God can kill 5.256.000.000.000 Illithids. So, in a single minute the entire Illithid empire goes poof.

So no, the Illithids never controlled anything beyond their own universe.

Epic magic. It's like Digimon- when enough nefarious squidfacted cthulhan masterminds put their heads together, they can do anything!


Love the knowledge of anatomy by WotC here.

'Yep, running a bit low on blood sugar here ... you know what, I think that I'll have to go an eat someone's pancreas to get by insulin levels back up to scratch again.'

:smallwink:

Did you know the vast amounts of urine from humans that is shunted into rivers everyday is causing developmental problems in aquatic organisms, namely fish, due the steroids and sex hormones therein?

13_CBS
2007-11-04, 03:08 PM
There is a suplement that says Levistus gets out occasionally, the Tyrant's of the Nine Hells has him released annually to attend the Lords of the Nine coference/bragging-session just so Asmodeus can rub his nose in it. He spends the entire time sulking and then gets teleported back to his iceberg... Every. Damn. Year. Now that's gotta get annoying after a few hunderd years.

Interestingly, according to the Gates of Hell splatbook from Dicefreaks, Levistus isn't even around. He's called Leviathan instead (who still killed Bensozia (Asmodeus's consort) and is locked in an iceberg...).

GuesssWho
2007-11-05, 04:20 PM
This looked interesting, so i just had to go for it.

In LoM, it says that the Far Realm can be found by going far enough in any direction. Since time is a dimension, I think that both the far past and future are part of the Far Realms. Since the chaotic advent of the Realms would destroy the illithid empire, I believe that was what they were escaping from.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-05, 08:16 PM
I think that works, I'm pretty sure the manual of the planes says that the center of the plane of time (the temporal energy plane?) probably leads to the far realm itself.

Of course, the illithid are kinda far-realmsy. They might have even originated there in some capacity.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-11-05, 08:45 PM
I think that works, I'm pretty sure the manual of the planes says that the center of the plane of time (the temporal energy plane?) probably leads to the far realm itself.

Of course, the illithid are kinda far-realmsy. They might have even originated there in some capacity.

It says that you can get to the Far Realm at from the Plane of Time by going to the end or the beginning...most can see the problem with this, specially since your going AGAINST the time stream by trying to get to the beginning and theoretically you can't get to the end. The Far Realm is actually very very hard to get to...maybe theres a reason for that.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-05, 09:06 PM
Well, just heading into the temporal energy plane itself is pretty much turning you into dead meat as far as the world is concerned. Time will move so fast, everything you knew about the world would be dead if you made it back. The sands of time will literally flay you into dust, and reaching the citadel of eternity (yeah, I cracked the book open) basically means you're screwed as far as the material plane goes.

Definately a last ditch effort if you've got some crazy plan involving it.