Magic Initiate Clarification

[carrdrivesyou]

Can you cast the 1st level spell you get from Magic Initiate with other spell slots as granted by either the Spellcasting or Pact Magic features?

[Zhorn]

Yes
You can cast it once for free with the feat, but outside of that you know the spell and can spend spell slots to cast it as normal.

Edit: Correction,

Yes, with conditions (or 'no, with exceptions')


Q: If you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat?
A: Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes. For example, if you pick sorcerer and you are a sorcerer, the Spellcasting feature for that class tells you that you can use your spell slots to cast the sorcerer spells you know, so you can use your spell slots to cast the 1st-level sorcerer spell you learn from Magic Initiate. Similarly, if you are a wizard and pick that class for the feat, you learn a 1st-level wizard spell, which you could add to your spellbook and subsequently prepare.

In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate.

Personally I find such a restriction unintuitive as it runs counter to how multiclass spell slots operate, in that you have a caster level establishing a singular pool of spell slot levels, that allows all your learned/known/prepared spells to be cast with any available slots.


Spell Slots. ...
You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know—and potentially enhance their effects
...
Pact Magic. ...
you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

Magic Initiate
... choose one 1st-level spell from that same list. You learn that spell ...

Maybe there is such semantics over 'known' vs 'learned', however that just seems a bit too silly.
Warlock's Pact Magic at the very least specifies that the spell has to come from a class with the Spellcasting class feature, but it does leave a little ambiguity in that spells from Magic Initiate would still count as they technically are from such a class, it's just not the method of how you learned them. Similarly, using Warlock spells is allowed with regular spell slots, and doesn't specify they need to have come from class levels.

In any case; officially via the SAC such a restriction is in place.

As a DM; I'd suggest house ruling it as learned/known/prepared spells are available for all spell slots and not overcomplicate things.

[Unoriginal]

Can you cast the 1st level spell you get from Magic Initiate with other spell slots as granted by either the Spellcasting or Pact Magic features?

Not in principle, although I've seen one person rule that way.

[Derpldorf]

As far as I understand, no. The spell isn't added to any other list you might have access to and it comes with it's own slot that can only be used on it.

Edit to clarify: the spell comes from a specific list, like Wizard or Cleric, and it stays in that list. So you could cast the Wizard spell from your normal slots if you have Wizard slots, but not if you cast Cleric if that makes sense.

[Greywander]

Short answer: You need at least one level in that class, e.g. wizard, if you chose Magic Initiate (wizard).

Slightly longer answer: You need to have the Spellcasting (or equivalent) feature that lets you cast spells from that spell list. So an EK or AT would probably work in the place of a wizard.

[AHF]

If a spell is on your class’s list that doesn’t cut it, correct?

Like if you are a sorcerer and choose wizard for a wizard cantrip and then select a first level spell that is also on the sorcerer list.

[jojosskul]

If a spell is on your class’s list that doesn’t cut it, correct?

Like if you are a sorcerer and choose wizard for a wizard cantrip and then select a first level spell that is also on the sorcerer list.

Yep, it has to be Magic Initiate (Class you have), even in cases where the spell you pick is on multiple lists. In my opinion in later levels Sorcerer is actually one of the better options to take Magic Initiate: Sorcerer on. Freeing up one of your few spells known by grabbing something like Shield frees up that known spell to be moved to a higher level slot.

[Satori01]

I disagree with Sage Advice here. Natural Language has a very obvious progression: once you Learn a spell, you Know that spell.

What it means to Know a spell, is well detailed in the PHB, (and above in the thread).

The player is choosing the Magic Initiate feat not the One shot, Weak Scroll Emulator feat.

[cutlery]

Sage advice aside, they are going in the other direction with the 2020 UA feats. Artificer Initiate, Tracker, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched all give you spells and explicitly call out that you can use your other slots to cast them no matter what class got you those slots. Mind you that two of those give you a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell and a half ASI; tracker gives you Hunter's Mark and a half asi, and another skill related benefit. Artificer initiate is a roundabout way to give an Eldritch Knight a spellcasting focus (as is Shield Training).

If it were me, I'd let MI work with other slots. It's a pretty weak enough feat as it is.

[Segev]

Sage advice aside, they are going in the other direction with the 2020 UA feats. Artificer Initiate, Tracker, Fey Touched, Shadow Touched all give you spells and explicitly call out that you can use your other slots to cast them no matter what class got you those slots. Mind you that two of those give you a level 1 spell and a level 2 spell and a half ASI; tracker gives you Hunter's Mark and a half asi, and another skill related benefit. Artificer initiate is a roundabout way to give an Eldritch Knight a spellcasting focus (as is Shield Training).

If it were me, I'd let MI work with other slots. It's a pretty weak enough feat as it is.

I agree with this sentiment. Both for natural language reasons and because having it only once per day severely limits which spells are worth it. And it becomes even less worthwhile on a caster who has better ways to get spells.

In fact, I’d be tempted to introduce a feat that gives spell progression to any class that doesn’t already have it as a 1/3 caster. Requires ability to cast a spell of first level or higher.

[cutlery]

I agree with this sentiment. Both for natural language reasons and because having it only once per day severely limits which spells are worth it. And it becomes even less worthwhile on a caster who has better ways to get spells.

In fact, I’d be tempted to introduce a feat that gives spell progression to any class that doesn’t already have it as a 1/3 caster. Requires ability to cast a spell of first level or higher.

It would be nice if there were some feats to a little bit more in the casting department for 1/3 casters - more spells known and/or slots above 2nd would be worth it on an EK or AT, and help you get more of the fighter/mage or rogue/mage feel without multiclassing. A feat that adds to your effective multiclass table caster level, perhaps - but there would have to be careful language so that full casters get no benefit (unless multiclassed, of course).

Feats are rare enough this probably wouldn't be too bad, and would be tempting options for an EK once they've gotten into Tier 3.

[Pex]

I say you can. The feat says you know the spell. What the feat grants you is the ability to cast it once without using a spell slot. That's a separate clause from knowing the spell. Your spellcasting modifier for it is based on the spell list you got it from, but you know the spell and can cast it normally if you have the spell slot.

[RogueJK]

It would be nice if there were some feats to a little bit more in the casting department for 1/3 casters

While not specifically for 1/3 casters, there are existing feats besides Magic Initiate, like Ritual Caster, Fey Teleportation, Wood Elf Magic, and the UA Eldritch Adept, that can mesh well with these classes and give them greater spell access.

For example, a Wood Elf Arcane Trickster infiltrator that can cast Guidance, Longstrider, and Pass Without Trace (Wood Elf Magic) plus has the ability to cast Disguise Self at will (Eldritch Adept with the Mask of Many Faces invocation).

Or a scholarly High Elf Eldritch Knight archaeologist who knows all of the Wizard rituals (Ritual Caster) and can cast Misty Step to access hard to reach areas (Fey Teleportation).

[KorvinStarmast]

I disagree with Sage Advice here. Natural Language has a very obvious progression: once you Learn a spell, you Know that spell. What it means to Know a spell, is well detailed in the PHB, (and above in the thread). The player is choosing the Magic Initiate feat not the One shot, Weak Scroll Emulator feat. Aye.

I say you can. The feat says you know the spell. What the feat grants you is the ability to cast it once without using a spell slot. That's a separate clause from knowing the spell. Your spellcasting modifier for it is based on the spell list you got it from, but you know the spell and can cast it normally if you have the spell slot. Agreed. It's a lot like a Warlock invocation that grants a spell once per long rest.

[Segev]

Agreed. It's a lot like a Warlock invocation that grants a spell once per long rest.

All the ones I can find say you can cast the spell once using a Warlock slot, and recharge on a long rest. None say you know it. Which might be your point, but if so, I just wanted to clarify.

[KorvinStarmast]

All the ones I can find say you can cast the spell once using a Warlock slot, and recharge on a long rest. None say you know it. Which might be your point, but if so, I just wanted to clarify. Warlocks are a 'spells known' not a 'spells prepared' class.

[Segev]

Warlocks are a 'spells known' not a 'spells prepared' class.

Right. Which means not saying you know the spell is significant.

The Warlock doesn't know the spell; if he did, he could cast it with his pact magic. What he can do is cast it anyway with a warlock spell slot (and only a warlock spell slot!) once per long rest.

Contrast with Shadow Sorcerer, who both learns darkness as a spell known as a subclass feature, AND gains the unique ability to cast it for 2 SP without using a spell slot (and to see through it if he casts it that way).

Again, I'm not 100% sure we're not actually agreeing, and talking around in circles around the central point or not. To me, the central point is that Warlock Invocations don't give you a spell known, but Magic Initiate does, and that's why the Magic Initiate spell, at least according to natural language (rather than Sage Advice), would seem to give you the ability to spend spell slots to cast its spell: you know the spell. Warlock Invocations that give you the ability to spend Warlock spell slots to cast a spell don't actually give you knowledge of the spell: you can't therefore cast the spell with a spell slot except as instructed by the Invocation itself.

[Pex]

That (in)famous UA that had feats giving you spells known specifically say you can also cast them using your spell slots. It may be meant to differentiate with Magic Initiate in their interpretation of the feat, but since they won't fix Magic Initiate I view the specific permission is them indirectly fixing it. As written those feats are more powerful than Magic Initiate if you can't cast the spell with your own spell slots when it's not on your list.

Magic Initiate suffers from what other clarifications have suffered in Sage Advice. When ever there is vagueness that can give two valid but contradictory answers to how something works, they will interpret the rule to be whatever does not make the player happy. See Great Weapon Style and Smites, Shield Master, Scorching Ray and Dragon Sorcerers which became official in a new book printing from the original wording, Cantrips and Evoker's Overchannel which became official in a new book printing from the original wording.

[Chronos]

Where it gets really weird is if you're multiclassed. Like, suppose that you're a wizard with Magic Initiate: Cleric (to learn Cure Wounds). You can only cast it once per day, because your spell slots are wizard spell slots, and so you can't use them to cast a cleric spell. But now you take a level of sorcerer: Now, you have two classes with the Spellcasting feature, and so you use the multiclass rules. You no longer have wizard spell slots, you just have spell slots, which can be used to cast any spell you have prepared or know. And Cure Wounds is a spell you know.

So in other words, gaining that level of sorcerer made you better at healing, even though sorcerers can't cast healing spells.

[Tanarii]

Isn't being able to cast known spells a specific version of the spellcasting feature? As opposed to prepared spells.

If so, its work with Bard, Sorc, Warlock and Ranger. And EK/AT. But not with Cleric, Druid, Paladin or Wizard.

[Greywander]

Where it gets really weird is if you're multiclassed. Like, suppose that you're a wizard with Magic Initiate: Cleric (to learn Cure Wounds). You can only cast it once per day, because your spell slots are wizard spell slots, and so you can't use them to cast a cleric spell. But now you take a level of sorcerer: Now, you have two classes with the Spellcasting feature, and so you use the multiclass rules. You no longer have wizard spell slots, you just have spell slots, which can be used to cast any spell you have prepared or know. And Cure Wounds is a spell you know.

So in other words, gaining that level of sorcerer made you better at healing, even though sorcerers can't cast healing spells.
I don't think that's how it works. A spell slot is a spell slot, regardless of whether you're single-classed or multiclassed. As far as Magic Initiate goes, the important part is that you have levels in the same class that you chose for Magic Initiate. So a multiclassed wizard/sorcerer still couldn't use spell slots for Cure Wounds. You would need to take a level in cleric.

Now, there are some oddities with Magic Initiate. Despite what's been said, I don't think it actually says you need levels in any specific class to cast your Magic Initiate spell using spell slots, that's something that was later clarified by the developers. So, RAI is you need levels in a specific class, but RAW you simply "know" the spell (it doesn't even say anything about using spell slots). Another oddity is if you're playing a class with an expanded spell list, which would allow you to take Magic Initiate to learn a spell from the expanded list, giving you a spell you wouldn't normally be able to get with Magic Initiate. For example, you could be a Hexblade warlock who takes Magic Initiate (warlock) to learn Shield.

[x3n0n]

That (in)famous UA that had feats giving you spells known specifically say you can also cast them using your spell slots. It may be meant to differentiate with Magic Initiate in their interpretation of the feat, but since they won't fix Magic Initiate I view the specific permission is them indirectly fixing it. As written those feats are more powerful than Magic Initiate if you can't cast the spell with your own spell slots when it's not on your list.

Magic Initiate suffers from what other clarifications have suffered in Sage Advice. When ever there is vagueness that can give two valid but contradictory answers to how something works, they will interpret the rule to be whatever does not make the player happy. See Great Weapon Style and Smites, Shield Master, Scorching Ray and Dragon Sorcerers which became official in a new book printing from the original wording, Cantrips and Evoker's Overchannel which became official in a new book printing from the original wording.

To be fair, the Magic Initiate ruling is slightly more liberal then the most draconian thing they could do, which is only to allow slot casting for known-spells classes that match. "Knowing" a spell for prepared-spells casters isn't enough of a thing to allow casting under normal circumstances, AFAIK. That is, under the most stringent reading, a Wizard with MI:Wizard (Shield) would still have to prepare Shield to cast it using a slot.

That said, I would have preferred the initial recognition that it really was ambiguous as originally written, then a more-liberal initial ruling ("you may use slots to cast your MI spell"), followed by errata to explicitly support that ruling.

The way this looks now, I think we are going to end up with a world where MI functions entirely differently vs Artificer Initiate (unless they treat Tasha's Class Feature Variants as an opportunity to make all of the "multiclassing" feats work the same as an optional rule, so DMs without Tasha's can still reject it).

[Tanarii]

I don't think that's how it works. A spell slot is a spell slot, regardless of whether you're single-classed or multiclassed. As far as Magic Initiate goes, the important part is that you have levels in the same class that you chose for Magic Initiate. So a multiclassed wizard/sorcerer still couldn't use spell slots for Cure Wounds. You would need to take a level in cleric.

No, it is how it works. A spell slot is not a spell slot. Single class characters can only use the to cast spells as described in the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature they have. Multiclassing characters can use the to cast any spell prepared or known among any of the class they have. (scratch all that, the post you quoted is claiming if you are a Sorc/Wizard you can cast Cleric MI spells. That is not correct. Neither spellcasting feature gives you that ability, and Multiclassing doesn't say you can use the slots for any spell you know. It is still based on the spellcasting feature of each individual class as to what spells you can cast)

I was wrong though about it not working with prepared spells. If you know a Wizard spell, you can use your Wizard class spellcasting feature to cast it. Even though you normally prepare spells. The spellcasting feature is worded so you can use your spell slots to cast Wizard spells of first level or higher , not just prepared Wizard spells of 1st level or higher.

[Petrocorus]

Magic Initiate suffers from what other clarifications have suffered in Sage Advice. When ever there is vagueness that can give two valid but contradictory answers to how something works, they will interpret the rule to be whatever does not make the player happy. See Great Weapon Style and Smites, Shield Master, Scorching Ray and Dragon Sorcerers which became official in a new book printing from the original wording, Cantrips and Evoker's Overchannel which became official in a new book printing from the original wording.

IMO, it all comes down to the writer's original sin of using a so-called natural language1, and sometimes willingly vague, in order to avoid key-word base language and supposedly to give more freedom to the DM.

The result is the number of things that are vague, have several possible interpretations, or confusing in the rules is properly atrocious.

And many times when the writers pretend to clarify something, they take an interpretation that doesn't make more sense, or sometimes even less sense than others within their "natural language". Not to mention, that sometimes, their errata or SA are actually rewriting of the rules (like the Str penalty of the kobolds).

1"You prepare the list of wizard spells that are available for you to cast." Am i seriously the only one to find this not natural at all?

[Greywander]

No, it is how it works. A spell slot is not a spell slot. Single class characters can only use the to cast spells as described in the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature they have. Multiclassing characters can use the to cast any spell prepared or known among any of the class they have. (scratch all that, the post you quoted is claiming if you are a Sorc/Wizard you can cast Cleric MI spells. That is not correct. Neither spellcasting feature gives you that ability, and Multiclassing doesn't say you can use the slots for any spell you know. It is still based on the spellcasting feature of each individual class as to what spells you can cast)

I was wrong though about it not working with prepared spells. If you know a Wizard spell, you can use your Wizard class spellcasting feature to cast it. Even though you normally prepare spells. The spellcasting feature is worded so you can use your spell slots to cast Wizard spells of first level or higher , not just prepared Wizard spells of 1st level or higher.
Interesting. I went ahead and looked up the multiclassing rules to see if it said anything about using spell slots for any class (as per the person I was replying to), and it doesn't. The closest it gets is when talking about pact magic slots. So I'm pretty sure I'm correct: a spell slot is a spell slot, regardless of whether you are single or multiclassed. There's no such thing as a "wizard spell slot" or a "cleric spell slot". The point you are trying to make is that the restriction for Magic Initiate is because a character, by default, can't cast a spell they know, even if they have spell slots; rather, it is the specific spellcasting feature of each class that grants the ability to cast spells from that class. Thus, if you take Magic Initiate (cleric) to get Cure Wounds, you "know" Cure Wounds but don't have the ability to cast cleric spells, even if you have spell slots. Taking a level in cleric gives you the ability to cast cleric spells using spell slots.

In other words, the person I was replying to seemed to think that spell slots were class-specific until you multiclassed, and then became generic. Thus, a wizard/sorcerer could use a "generic" spell slot to cast a cleric spell gained from Magic Initiate. My response was that spell slots were always generic. Your followup seems to indicate that the rules for this aren't found in the multiclass rules, but in the Spellcasting feature for each individual caster class. Without that specific Spellcasting feature, you can't cast spells from that class, even if you already have spell slots and spells known.

In even less words, a character does not, by default, have the ability to cast any spells, even if they both know spells and have spell slots. Taking a level in, say, cleric, only allows you to cast cleric spells, even if you already know non-cleric spells.

So then I looked at the Spellcasting section of the PHB, and now I think you might be incorrect. The Spellcasting part of the PHB spells (no pun intended) things out pretty clearly: you need to have a spell "firmly fixed in mind" (e.g. known or prepared), you cast it using a spell slot of the same level or higher, and you get your spell slots back on a long rest; you can even upcast the spell with a higher level slot. What this means, I think, is that everyone has the ability to cast spells, but most people don't know any spells or have any spell slots. If you somehow managed to learn a spell and gain a spell slot, you could cast that spell using your spell slot, even without the Spellcasting class feature. Thus, I don't think the Spellcasting feature actually allows you to cast spells, since you can already do that. All it does is provide you with spells known or prepared and with spell slots.

This might be a mostly semantic argument, though. Magic Initiate can teach you a spell without needing the Spellcasting feature, but I don't currently know of a way to get a spell slot without being a caster class. I suppose a creature with innate spellcasting, but then again that's still a Spellcasting feature, isn't it? I suppose it does still matter for Magic Initiate, though. According the the Spellcasting section of the PHB, since you know the spell, you should be able to cast it using any spell slots you have. On the other hand, if I'm wrong and you're right, you'd need the correct Spellcasting feature to gain the ability to cast spells from that specific class, even if you already know the spell and have spell slots.

[Tanarii]

So then I looked at the Spellcasting section of the PHB, and now I think you might be incorrect. The Spellcasting part of the PHB spells (no pun intended) things out pretty clearly: you need to have a spell "firmly fixed in mind" (e.g. known or prepared), you cast it using a spell slot of the same level or higher, and you get your spell slots back on a long rest; you can even upcast the spell with a higher level slot. What this means, I think, is that everyone has the ability to cast spells, but most people don't know any spells or have any spell slots. If you somehow managed to learn a spell and gain a spell slot, you could cast that spell using your spell slot, even without the Spellcasting class feature. Thus, I don't think the Spellcasting feature actually allows you to cast spells, since you can already do that. All it does is provide you with spells known or prepared and with spell slots.

The spellcasting feature giving you the ability to cast spells from your class is listed specifically under each class, not in the spells chapter, specifically under the spell slots section. The Multiclassing rules on spell slots don't change this, it's still each individual class giving you the ability to use spell slots to cast a specific type of spells.

For example, from the Sorc class:
SPELL SLOTS
The Sorcerer table shows how many spell slotsyou have to cast your sorcerer spells of 1st level and higher.

From the AT subclass:
Spell Slots. The Arcane Trickster Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your wizard spells of 1st level and higher.